353 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

You really overstimate your importance to me, don't you?
Good to know you care enough to gloat, tough.

As it is to know that you care enough to respond.

Aid the elves in reclaiming the Dales, and let the remnants of the Orlesian Empire become the new capital of a mecca for mages.

Not as easy as it sounds, especially as Orlais' nobility seems to consist of living poison. I'm trying to think of ways to handle this that don't involve Bolshevik-style purges, but I admit that nothing is coming.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aid the elves in reclaiming the Dales, and let the remnants of the Orlesian Empire become the new capital of a mecca for mages.

Not as easy as it sounds, especially as Orlais' nobility seems to consist of living poison. I'm trying to think of ways to handle this that don't involve Bolshevik-style purges, but I admit that nothing is coming.

A purge might be necessary when the alternative for mages and elves is slavery and subjugation. The Circles and the Alienages are horrible, and this might be their only chance for the mages and elves to overthrow a regime that has kept them under their heel for centuries. If there was no alternative to free the mages and the elves, then it's the only course of action that can be taken. 

"La historia me absolverá" which is Spanish (and I suspect Antivan) for "History Will Absolve Me".

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aid the elves in reclaiming the Dales, and let the remnants of the Orlesian Empire become the new capital of a mecca for mages.

Not as easy as it sounds, especially as Orlais' nobility seems to consist of living poison. I'm trying to think of ways to handle this that don't involve Bolshevik-style purges, but I admit that nothing is coming.

A purge might be necessary when the alternative for mages and elves is slavery and subjugation. The Circles and the Alienages are horrible, and this might be their only chance for the mages and elves to overthrow a regime that has kept them under their heel for centuries. If there was no alternative to free the mages and the elves, then it's the only course of action that can be taken. 

"La historia me absolverá" which is Spanish (and I suspect Antivan) for "History Will Absolve Me".

History can do that, but that tends to take a century or two, and if things go bad sooner, it's a relatively poor way to remember the gensis of a nation. If, however, we can ally with Celene and allow her to retain power in exchange for her granting greater concessions to the mages and elves, and somehow help her squash the rest of the nobility... we wouldn't be blamed directly and a power structure may be in place that we would have far more input in. I wouldn't actually suggest the use of blood magic to tilt things a bit in our favor, because of course many people would be upset if that came to light, but emergencies do happen.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

The way my Hawke sees it, Merrill is the brightest, kindest person he's ever seen. She learned a dangerous and, morally neutral magical art just to help her people, despite getting nothing but grief over it.

I object. 

You object by providing a link to a scene from Night Terrors, the quest that forces every single companion of Hawke (except Anders) to betray him in a matter of seconds...

Yet all the other companions lack the training or wisdom that Merrill a blood mage should have. She knows that demons are untrustworthy yet she still took the offer. Wryme made an ambiguous statement  about giving her power to save her people, but how? Plus she was trained by Marethari.

This is not even taking into account half her banter with Varric, and Anders.

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You object by providing a link to a scene from Night Terrors, the quest that forces every single companion of Hawke (except Anders) to betray him in a matter of seconds...

Yet all the other companions lack the training or wisdom that Merrill a blood mage should have.

If the quest forces your companion to betray you in a matter of seconds no matter what, it's Plot Railroading, not character analysis.

The Hierophant wrote...

She knows that demons are untrustworthy yet she still took the offer. Wryme made an ambiguous statement  about giving her power to save her people, but how? Plus she was trained by Marethari.

This is not even taking into account half her banter with Varric, and Anders. 

I recall Merrill's banter with Anders about the Fade because the two characters hold different religious beliefs from each other (which is why Merrill says she believes that the denizens of the Fade are simply spirits, while Anders argues that they are Spirits and Demons, i.e. Children of the Maker). And Merrill admonishing Anders because "there's no such thing as a good spirit."

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not so sure. The human kingdoms and nobles have their part in elves's oppression. I doubt that it will be all resolved with destroying the Chantry.
Regardless, the most important thing is that human and elves, even if elves by change will have a new homeland, have at least to learn to live without killing each others. Otherwise a new conflict will rise, and the side which is stronger will subjugate the other.

It's true, we need a full-on elven revolution. Peace will be necessary, but... can the humans be trusted?

A full-on elven revolution might not be the best course of action. In term of military power, the elves would be annihilated. Of course, given the situation in Southern Thedas, they might have more chances, but they would be still alone. Depending on the king, Ferelden could be an ally, but I'm not sure they have the power (or the will) to fight beside the elves.
The elves might ally with the mages, but....I'm not sure they would, at least the dalish. Elves suffered (and a part of them continues, in the North) because of of the magisters. I'm not sure the dalish would trust the revolutionary mages. They might fear the coming of a second Imperium (not saying that it would). As I see the situation, the three sides in the mage-templar conflict aren't particulary liked by the dalish.

And I don't know if I can trust both humans and elves. I personally don't know if the fall of the Dales happened as the dalish said, or as the Chantry said. Both sides are obviously biased. I can't trust them 100% in this story.
So if the story of the dalish is right, then the fault is on the humans. But if the story of the Chantry is right (at least in the part in which the dalish attacked Orlais), the fault is with both sides, and the conflict ended with the fall of Dales simply because the humans were stronger than the elves. Have the contrary happened, the dalish would've conquered the human kingdoms.
Regardless of what happened, if humans and elves don't learn to live (even in different states) in peace, war will always rise. And frankly, since the humans are and will be more than elves, the latter will probably lose again.
A compromise is needed.

Modifié par hhh89, 08 janvier 2013 - 06:01 .

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I recall Merrill's banter with Anders about the Fade because the two characters hold different religious beliefs from each other (which is why Merrill says she believes that the denizens of the Fade are simply spirits, while Anders argues that they are Spirits and Demons, i.e. Children of the Maker). And Merrill admonishing Anders because "there's no such thing as a good spirit."

I agree with her definition of spirits. Infact, I believe that regardless of what you call them, people should leave the inhabitants of the Fade alone, and don't trust them, regardless their embodiement of Pride, Justice or Sloth. Something that both Anders and Merrill should've done (though to be fair to Merrill, we can't know if she'd have fallen against the demon).

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
A purge might be necessary when the
alternative for mages and elves is slavery and subjugation. The Circles
and the Alienages are horrible, and this might be their only chance for
the mages and elves to overthrow a regime that has kept them under their
heel for centuries. If there was no alternative to free the mages and
the elves, then it's the only course of action that can be taken. 

"La historia me absolverá" which is Spanish (and I suspect Antivan) for "History Will Absolve Me".

Genocide...really? I mean...really?
You
complain and complain and complain about what you perceive as slavery,
wrongfully or not, and then suggest to do something worse.
Well, at least we can stop pretending this is about injustice. Supremacy is what this is about, apparently.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I recall Merrill's banter with Anders about the Fade because the two characters hold different religious beliefs from each other (which is why Merrill says she believes that the denizens of the Fade are simply spirits, while Anders argues that they are Spirits and Demons, i.e. Children of the Maker). And Merrill admonishing Anders because "there's no such thing as a good spirit."

Merril is an idiot. Read the codex of sloth and desire demons. Clearly, the Chantry and Circle have studied extensivelly the behavior of demons to better understand them.
Their breaking down into different sins are the result of years of scientific study, not religious dogma. If she doesn't believe in the Maker, that's her business, but she can't simply disregard this study just because she is not an Andrastean.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A purge might be necessary when the alternative for mages and elves is slavery and subjugation. The Circles and the Alienages are horrible, and this might be their only chance for the mages and elves to overthrow a regime that has kept them under their heel for centuries. If there was no alternative to free the mages and the elves, then it's the only course of action that can be taken. 

"La historia me absolverá" which is Spanish (and I suspect Antivan) for "History Will Absolve Me". 

History can do that, but that tends to take a century or two, and if things go bad sooner, it's a relatively poor way to remember the gensis of a nation. If, however, we can ally with Celene and allow her to retain power in exchange for her granting greater concessions to the mages and elves, and somehow help her squash the rest of the nobility... we wouldn't be blamed directly and a power structure may be in place that we would have far more input in. I wouldn't actually suggest the use of blood magic to tilt things a bit in our favor, because of course many people would be upset if that came to light, but emergencies do happen. 

Perhaps it's poorer, but at least the elves and the mages would be free.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust Empress or the Duke once they have gained power over the throne; I'd rather make certain that the empire that brutally oppressed the elves and the mages was put out of commission by supplanting it with a new society. Let the elves regain power by taking back the Dales, and perhaps the rest of Orlais as concession for what Orlais and the Chantry did to them, and build a mecca for the mages, where mages won't be put under the heel of the Chantry or the templars.

And I have no problem with using blood magic right from the start.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...
By definition, the mages are the only ones who have a corps of prison guards standing over them at all times, and we know what sorts of things they can get up to, even in Ferelden.

Ah, I suspected as much. We have no evidence whatsoever that the frequency of rape is higher inside circles or in Orlais compared to the rest of society. Some hints, perhaps. But no evidence. If you wish to use your own assumtions or speculation to assist your points, by all means. But for the sake of the discussion could you tell us when you do so? The world is vague enough without us adding our own ideas into the whole thing as it is.

Because then the population as a whole would have turned against the templars, whom they already dislike, while Elthina is beloved. There'd be a full-scale rebellion going on if the templars went that far.

Which is why it'd be an unfortunate accident involving a flight of stairs, not a squad of templars putting her head on a pike. Old ladies' balance is not what it used to be, after all. Or maybe she'd just quietly fall asleep after having her carefully prepared evening tea? Noone could ever have forseen that she had such grave heart failure.
And that's even assuming it'd be the templars... maker knows there's enough anti-mage sentiment in the chantry to maker her own sisters and revered mothers be equally suspect (and no doubt, quite a few nobles).

If Elthina had stepped in, her death would have been tragic and come at the wrong time. Meredith would no doubt have made a stirring speech at her funeral, praising her morality and wisdom. Maybe select mages would even be allowed to attend. It'd be a very beautiful ceremony, I'm sure.

And before the week was out, her successor would grant Meredith anything she wanted.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...



Perhaps it's poorer, but at least the elves and the mages would be free.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust Empress or the Duke once they have gained power over the throne; I'd rather make certain that the empire that brutally oppressed the elves and the mages was put out of commission by supplanting it with a new society. Let the elves regain power by taking back the Dales, and perhaps the rest of Orlais as concession for what Orlais and the Chantry did to them, and build a mecca for the mages, where mages won't be put under the heel of the Chantry or the templars.

And I have no problem with using blood magic right from the start.

Just a question, who will give Orlais to the elves as a concession? The other human kingdoms?
About completely destroying Orlais, not that Nevarra or Antiva particulaty like Orlais, but I doubt that they'll trust the elves more (and Ferelden, considering the situation after the Blight and their power pre-Blight, isn't that strong).. And elves alone don't have enough power to stop humans. Elves need some allies, and genocide of utter destruction isn't something that would attract allies (not to mention that they don't have themselves the power to do).
And you are so sure that elves would ally themselves with mages. It's one of the possible scenario, but you shouldn't forget that dalish hate humans in general, and they don't necessarily like mages. You can talk about common oppression, but the dalish have still a clair proof of what mages can do to the elves in the North. Dalish themselves have no proof that this wouldn't happen again with the mage revolution, and neither have we.

Modifié par hhh89, 08 janvier 2013 - 06:40 .

[Xilizhra]

Genocide...really? I mean...really?
You
complain and complain and complain about what you perceive as slavery,
wrongfully or not, and then suggest to do something worse.
Well, at least we can stop pretending this is about injustice. Supremacy is what this is about, apparently.

It's not genocide, as it's targeted against a political faction as opposed to a national/ethnic/biological group.

Ah, I suspected as much. We have no evidence whatsoever that the frequency of rape is higher inside circles or in Orlais compared to the rest of society. Some hints, perhaps. But no evidence. If you wish to use your own assumtions or speculation to assist your points, by all means. But for the sake of the discussion could you tell us when you do so? The world is vague enough without us adding our own ideas into the whole thing as it is.

Very well. I don't have absolute proof that the place with the bigoted drug-addicted prison guards controlling the oppressed populace contains more abuses of power than everyday life outside of it. Your concession is granted.

Which is why it'd be an unfortunate accident involving a flight of stairs, not a squad of templars putting her head on a pike. Old ladies' balance is not what it used to be, after all. Or maybe she'd just quietly fall asleep after having her carefully prepared evening tea? Noone could ever have forseen that she had such grave heart failure.
And that's even assuming it'd be the templars... maker knows there's enough anti-mage sentiment in the chantry to maker her own sisters and revered mothers be equally suspect (and no doubt, quite a few nobles).

That's not in Meredith's nature. While all-around horrible, one thing she isn't is dishonest; she always acts openly and unapologetically, and her going nuts over the sword wouldn't lessen that quality. If she believed Elthina was turning against the Maker's interests, she'd kill her openly and expect everyone to agree with her. And if someone else killed Elthina, Meredith would pursue them rabidly.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

Very well. I don't have absolute proof that the place with the bigoted drug-addicted prison guards controlling the oppressed populace contains more abuses of power than everyday life outside of it. Your concession is granted.

Thanks

And quite frankly, I do think you have a point. Some templars in particular really should not be manning circles at all (or even be templars).

But I doubt the circles are worse than warzones, unruly borders or areas with overlapping faith. If someone told me rape happened on a daily basis on the Nevarran-Orlesian border, in the Viddathari region of Rivain and bordering the Chasind territory in Ferelden I would not bat an eyelash in surprise.

That's not in Meredith's nature. While all-around horrible, one thing she isn't is dishonest; she always acts openly and unapologetically, and her going nuts over the sword wouldn't lessen that quality. If she believed Elthina was turning against the Maker's interests, she'd kill her openly and expect everyone to agree with her. And if someone else killed Elthina, Meredith would pursue them rabidly.

Hmmm... you're right.  I still think Elthina would not live long, but you're right about Meredith. There's simply too much animosity towards the mages in higher society to make her actively taking their side would lead to any positive change.

Edit: Clarified my point above.

Modifié par Sir JK, 08 janvier 2013 - 06:54 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
It's not genocide, as it's targeted against a political faction as opposed to a national/ethnic/biological group.

You can try to sugarcoat it all you want but you're still talking about the wholesome slaugther of entire families simply and purely because they are not the side you support in these conflicts that are bound to exist in any society.
Ah, the work of the noble freedom figthers. Ugh.

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Perhaps it's poorer, but at least the elves and the mages would be free.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust Empress or the Duke once they have gained power over the throne; I'd rather make certain that the empire that brutally oppressed the elves and the mages was put out of commission by supplanting it with a new society. Let the elves regain power by taking back the Dales, and perhaps the rest of Orlais as concession for what Orlais and the Chantry did to them, and build a mecca for the mages, where mages won't be put under the heel of the Chantry or the templars.

And I have no problem with using blood magic right from the start. 

Just a question, who will give Orlais to the elves as a concession? The other human kingdoms?

In this hypothetical scenario? The mage rebellion that would aid the elves in toppling the humans from the Dales, and then from Orlais - the seat of power for the Chantry of Andraste and the Orlesian Empire. The insitution that oppressed and subjugated the mages and the elves would be out of commission, and the elves could build a new homeland.

hhh89 wrote...

About completely destroying Orlais, not that Nevarra or Antiva particulaty like Orlais, but I doubt that they'll trust the elves more (and Ferelden, considering the situation after the Blight and their power pre-Blight, isn't that strong).. And elves alone don't have enough power to stop humans. Elves need some allies, and genocide of utter destruction isn't something that would attract allies (not to mention that they don't have themselves the power to do).

I agree that the elves need allies - which is where the mage revolution comes into play. I would also look to establish a new mecca for mages.

hhh89 wrote...

And you are so sure that elves would ally themselves with mages. It's one of the possible scenario, but you shouldn't forget that dalish hate humans in general, and they don't necessarily like mages. You can talk about common oppression, but the dalish have still a clair proof of what mages can do to the elves in the North. Dalish themselves have no proof that this wouldn't happen again with the mage revolution, and neither have we.

Some Dalish hate humans because of what transpired in their history, but I think the clans could come together against a common foe. A persuasive leader could convince the Dalish that this is their chance to seize control of their stolen homeland, and overthrow the tyrants who oppressed both their people for centuries.

[Xilizhra]

But I doubt the circles are worse than warzones, unruly borders or areas with overlapping faith. If someone told me rape happened on a daily basis on the Nevarran-Orlesian border, in the Viddathari region of Rivain and bordering the Chasind territory in Ferelden I would not bat an eyelash in surprise.

That may be true, but they're also not "most of Thedas."

Hmmm... you're right. I still think Elthina would not live long, but you're right about Meredith. There's simply too much animosity towards the mages in higher society to make her actively taking their side would lead to any positive change.

When (at least in my playthrough) a good portion of the nobility is openly dissenting against Meredith and some are actively working on a conspiracy to overthrow her? By Act 3, it seems as though the mages are less a problem than Meredith in the minds of almost everyone.

You can try to sugarcoat it all you want but you're still talking about the wholesome slaugther of entire families simply and purely because they are not the side you support in these conflicts that are bound to exist in any society.

A, it's something I'm trying to avoid. B, it wouldn't be entire families. C, Orlais' nobility may not be completely vile, but the Great Game seems to greatly favor the ones who are, and noble culture seems to select for evil in general, in Orlais. I'm sure there are exceptions, whom I'd hold no animosity for.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You object by providing a link to a scene from Night Terrors, the quest that forces every single companion of Hawke (except Anders) to betray him in a matter of seconds...

Yet all the other companions lack the training or wisdom that Merrill a blood mage should have.

If the quest forces your companion to betray you in a matter of seconds no matter what, it's Plot Railroading, not character analysis.

Your claim of the quest being railroaded doesn't equal to character inconsistency in Merril's portrayal.

The only characters who had any inconsistant portrayals by the alleged railroading were Varric, and Aveline. Their respective issues could have been resolved before hand.(E.g. Bartrand's fate, Aveline finally moving on, and hooking up with Donnic.)

So far i don't see how the quest negates my assessement her naivete.

I recall Merrill's banter with Anders about the Fade because the two characters hold different religious beliefs from each other (which is why Merrill says she believes that the denizens of the Fade are simply spirits, while Anders argues that they are Spirits and Demons, i.e. Children of the Maker). And Merrill admonishing Anders because "there's no such thing as a good spirit."

Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
Merrill: Oh, no. I did.
Anders: Why would you do that?
Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!
Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

Anders: Your Keeper did not deserve that death.
Merrill: It was my risk to take! I never asked her to do this for me.
Anders: She knew you didn't have the strength to resist the demon. That's why it picked you.
Merrill: Why are you doing this? What can I do about it now?
Anders: Make up for your mistakes. Most blood mages never get a second chance.

She's not that bright in the first, and the realization of her gullibility in the second seems to have struck Merrill as if John Goodman circa the film Storytelling was dropped on top of her.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:10 .

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

That may be true, but they're also not "most of Thedas."

Perhaps not. How about we let it lie until we learn more?

When (at least in my playthrough) a good portion of the nobility is openly dissenting against Meredith and some are actively working on a conspiracy to overthrow her? By Act 3, it seems as though the mages are less a problem than Meredith in the minds of almost everyone.

Yes, but Elthina was not actively speaking for mage rights either. Her openhanded methods did help in showing just how much of a problem Meredith was. After all... who can disagree with the notion that opposing sides should talk to one another and come up with a solution both can agree too.

Had she taken a different approach, who knows how it'd be different.

But we're drifting off the topic... which was mage rebellion leadership. Incidentally... my comments about flights of stairs or carefully prepared evening teas suddenly seem curiously apropos

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
That may be true, but they're also not "most of Thedas."

When did rape and the danger of it became the sole determinant factor of quality of life?

When (at least in my playthrough) a good portion of the nobility is openly dissenting against Meredith and some are actively working on a conspiracy to overthrow her? By Act 3, it seems as though the mages are less a problem than Meredith in the minds of almost everyone.

In my playthrough there were nobles yelling about how they weren'r safe while mages walked the streets. It's highly dependant on who Hawke supports.

B, it wouldn't be entire families.

Of course it would. And if you plan is to kill anyone who has a problem with mages or elves, you would need to kill thousands of civillians.

Orlais' nobility may not be completely vile, but the Great Game seems to greatly favor the ones who are, and noble culture seems to select for evil in general, in Orlais. I'm sure there are exceptions, whom I'd hold no animosity for.

Competition, looking out for number one, violent and otherwise, is a staple of life, sentient or otherwise. No one is exempt from it, humans, elves, dwarves, mages.
The nobles of Orlais are no more or less evil that anyone else. They're people, that is all.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You object by providing a link to a scene from Night Terrors, the quest that forces every single companion of Hawke (except Anders) to betray him in a matter of seconds...

It's almost like your headcannon about characters is wrong. But that would be silly.

Aid the elves in reclaiming the Dales, and let the remnants of the Orlesian Empire become the new capital of a mecca for mages.

You mean the site of a new Exhalted March against mage occupiers? Because that's the only way that will go down without the mages creating a dictatorship to rival the Tevinte Imperium. What makes you think that anyone in Orlais will stand for that, or that other nations will recognize the legitim

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
A purge might be necessary when the alternative for mages and elves is slavery and subjugation. 

Holy **** you're actually advocating for mass killings.

The Circles and the Alienages are horrible, and this might be their only chance for the mages and elves to overthrow a regime that has kept them under their heel for centuries. If there was no alternative to free the mages and the elves, then it's the only course of action that can be taken. 

"La historia me absolverá" which is Spanish (and I suspect Antivan) for "History Will Absolve Me".

No, no, no mass killings aren't justifications, unless you were so good at the mass killings that you've almost wiped out your detractors (cf. what happened to aboriginals at the hands of the west).

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
It's not genocide, as it's targeted against a political faction as opposed to a national/ethnic/biological group.

It's a mass killing of human non-mages, largely for being human non-mages. That's skirting the line. And with some comments about the chantry here, that's already inside the line.

[Xilizhra]

When did rape and the danger of it became the sole determinant factor of quality of life?

Well, if it's somehow a significant factor, that's kind of important. However, freedom in general is extremely important psychologically to many people.

Of course it would. And if you plan is to kill anyone who has a problem with mages or elves, you would need to kill thousands of civillians.

Why would I need to? I was only referring to the ones who could be a genuine and direct physical threat.

Competition, looking out for number one, violent and otherwise, is a staple of life, sentient or otherwise. No one is exempt from it, humans, elves, dwarves, mages.
The nobles of Orlais are no more or less evil that anyone else. They're people, that is all.

I disagree. They exult vicious competition as a virtue over everything else; that kind of thing is more corrupting than any magic, and it's the exact reason why Tevinter's nobility tends to be just as problematic.

It's a mass killing of human non-mages, largely for being human
non-mages. That's skirting the line. And with some comments about the
chantry here, that's already inside the line.

It's for their position, past crimes, and likelihood of repeating them.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:24 .

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the quest forces your companion to betray you in a matter of seconds no matter what, it's Plot Railroading, not character analysis.

Your claim of the quest being railroaded doesn't equal to character inconsistency in Merril's portrayal.

The only characters who had any inconsistant portrayals by the alleged railroading were Varric, and Aveline. Their respective issues could have been resolved before hand.(E.g. Bartrand's fate, Aveline finally moving on, and hooking up with Donnic.)

So far i don't see how the quest negates my assessement her naivete.

Having culture shock about a completely foreign society doesn't mean that it makes sense for Merrill to betray her friend or lover in a matter of seconds. It's no different for virtually much every other companion stabbing Hawke in the back (except Anders). Just because a demon claimed he could give them what they wanted doesn't mean he could do so. Plot Railroading for this quest isn't an indication of who the character actually is.

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I recall Merrill's banter with Anders about the Fade because the two characters hold different religious beliefs from each other (which is why Merrill says she believes that the denizens of the Fade are simply spirits, while Anders argues that they are Spirits and Demons, i.e. Children of the Maker). And Merrill admonishing Anders because "there's no such thing as a good spirit."

Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right? 
Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon? 
Merrill: Oh, no. I did. 
Anders: Why would you do that? 
Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it. 
Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain! 
Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

You realize she isn't actually serious in that scene? Merill seriously says to Anders:

Merrill: Are you all right?

Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?

Merrill: I'm sorry.

Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!

Merrill: Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

The Hierophant wrote...

Anders: Your Keeper did not deserve that death. 
Merrill: It was my risk to take! I never asked her to do this for me. 
Anders: She knew you didn't have the strength to resist the demon. That's why it picked you.
Merrill: Why are you doing this? What can I do about it now?
Anders: Make up for your mistakes. Most blood mages never get a second chance.

She's not that bright in the first, and the realization of her gullibility in the second seems to have struck Merrill as if John Goodman circa the film Storytelling was dropped on top of her. 

Merrill isn't "that bright" because her Keeper let loose Audacity, became an abomination, didn't warn anyone in her clan about what she was doing, and endangered everyone (including Merrill) with her actions? Meanwhile, Merrill studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard, successfully cleansed the shard of the darkspawn taint, and asked Hawke to accompany her to avoid any civilian casualities if Audacity managed to get free from the totem - as Audacity could only escape from the totem if someone intentionally released him. Do I even need to explain what's wrong with your claim here?

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You object by providing a link to a scene from Night Terrors, the quest that forces every single companion of Hawke (except Anders) to betray him in a matter of seconds...

It's almost like your headcannon about characters is wrong. But that would be silly.

Actually, it's more like the quest defies common sense by having grown adults attempt to commit cold-blooded murder because a demon promised them something that he obviously couldn't deliver on a few seconds prior. You're welcome to think it's completely plausible for grown adults to try to murder someone because someone spoke to them for a few seconds and offered them something they couldn't plausibly provide to them.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aid the elves in reclaiming the Dales, and let the remnants of the Orlesian Empire become the new capital of a mecca for mages. 

You mean the site of a new Exhalted March against mage occupiers? Because that's the only way that will go down without the mages creating a dictatorship to rival the Tevinte Imperium. What makes you think that anyone in Orlais will stand for that, or that other nations will recognize the legitim 

Which is why Orlais is going to be overthrown (in this hypothetical scenario). It's all part of the plan.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A purge might be necessary when the alternative for mages and elves is slavery and subjugation. 

Holy **** you're actually advocating for mass killings.

Killing the nobility who rule Orlais and oppose you trying to depose them, and anyone actively trying to kill you (such as the soldiers who work for the nobility). That doesn't really make this plan any different from the mass killings committed by The Warden against the forces of Arl Howe and Teyrn Loghain, including Howe (and possibly the Teyrn himself), or pro-mage Hawke when he was killing every templar in his way to escape from the Gallows. After all, you don't play a pacifist in Dragon Age.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Circles and the Alienages are horrible, and this might be their only chance for the mages and elves to overthrow a regime that has kept them under their heel for centuries. If there was no alternative to free the mages and the elves, then it's the only course of action that can be taken. 

"La historia me absolverá" which is Spanish (and I suspect Antivan) for "History Will Absolve Me". 

No, no, no mass killings aren't justifications, unless you were so good at the mass killings that you've almost wiped out your detractors (cf. what happened to aboriginals at the hands of the west). 

I'm talking about the rivals who oppose you among the nobility, not the general populace.