353 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

The Hierophant wrote...

So i was partially right in my assessment of Merrill willingly taking up Wryme's offer?

Keep in mind that it's my take on it. I can't recall what the writer said (I don't even recall if it was DG or Sheryl)  exactly. But my recollection is that the scene could have used more work to portray it convincingly to the player. 

[Herr Uhl]

The whole fade needs some work in order to seem more believable. All the illusions in DAO were horribly transparent.

[Sir JK]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The whole fade needs some work in order to seem more believable. All the illusions in DAO were horribly transparent.

Agreed, the fade needs to be more dream-logic (and thus making you accept weird and inexplicable things) and the demons more subtle and manipulative. "No, of course they're not going to tell you they're going to possess you". In fact, they shouldn't even let you know they're demons. Except when they're banking on that you think you know what you're doing.

What the series need in my meaning is an alternate game over that revolves around a demon manipulating the PC, slowly and subtly allowing you to pull yourself in.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, it's more like the quest defies common sense by having grown adults attempt to commit cold-blooded murder because a demon promised them something that he obviously couldn't deliver on a few seconds prior. You're welcome to think it's completely plausible for grown adults to try to murder someone because someone spoke to them for a few seconds and offered them something they couldn't plausibly provide to them. [/quote]

Bioware admitted that the scene was poorly written - but the intent was nevertheless there that the party are all succeptible to demonic temptation. Despite the contrived way in which it was done, it seems to be to be the case that Bioware believed it was within Merril's character to be tempted by and willing deal with a demon, including selling out Hawke, if the right promise was made. [/quote]

Wasn't that the same developer of Bioware who said that there were no stupid and insane mages in Kirkwall? Guess Decimus, Grace, Tahrone, Huon, and all the other insane and stupid mage antagonists weren't really insane and stupid then.

Sarcasm aside, it really doesn't change the fact that we have characters trying to murder one of their friends after a few seconds because a demon made them an implausible offer. I doubt any sane person in the real world would try to murder a friend simply because someone made them an offer.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Which is why Orlais is going to be overthrown (in this hypothetical scenario). It's all part of the plan.[/quote]

What makes you think Orlais is doing the marching? [/quote]

In my hypothetical scenario? Orlais is having a civil war, it's the seat of the Chantry, and it has Circles of Magi in the nation (the exact number of which seem to vary, depending on the source - the lore has been inconsistent on this point).

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Killing the nobility who rule Orlais and oppose you trying to depose them, and anyone actively trying to kill you (such as the soldiers who work for the nobility). [/quote]

Oh, so we're just killing the nobles and the chevalier. And what are you going to do with all of the people whose fortunes ride on the current system, if they're unhappy with you? Are you going to execute them as collaborators?

What happens if we have a situation like South Africa? Are you going to force humans to give up their wealth for the sake of the elves? And what happens if a farmer doesn't want to give up his land to elves? Would she be executed? [/quote]

In this hypothetical scenario? They can do what the Dalish did when the humans conquered their nation because they refused to convert to the Chantry. They can go elsewhere.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That doesn't really make this plan any different from the mass killings committed by The Warden against the forces of Arl Howe and Teyrn Loghain, [/quote]

There's a big difference between war and purges. It's the difference between what the Warden does, and executing all of the men you captured because you believe they might rise up against you again. That's a purge.

Actually, here's a better example. You know what a purge is? The Rite of Annulment. That's what you're advocating for. Using the very same reasoning the templars would use! [/quote]

I'm pretty sure murdering an entire population of mages in a Circle of Magi is different than killing specific people who are trying to kill you because you're seeking to emancipate mages and elves. Deciding that I would rather throw my lot in with the elves (who are living in occupied Dales) over the Empress or the Duke is simply putting my efforts into helping a disenfranchised group over two petty politicans I could care less about.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

including Howe (and possibly the Teyrn himself), or pro-mage Hawke when he was killing every templar in his way to escape from the Gallows. After all, you don't play a pacifist in Dragon Age. [/quote]

There's a big difference between killing someone you're fighting and executing people in cold blood. Preventing that is why my Hawke stood up to Meredith. And now you're cheerfully advocating for the same thing she does, because it's the people you don't like who have their necks on the axe. [/quote]

There's a civil war in Orlais. I'm talking about putting my lot with the elves over the humans. Blood is being shed because the Empress and the Duke are fighting for the throne. Why should I help them, when I help the elves who have no one in their corner?

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm talking about the rivals who oppose you among the nobility, not the general populace. [/quote]

The general populace could very well oppose you when you execute their leaders and take away their livelihoods, and especially when you tell them their elven servants are now their leaders and mages run the kingdom.

And then what do you do? [/quote]

What did my elven Warden call that when Leliana told him about how elves are treated in Orlais? Oh yeah - slavery.

[TheJediSaint]

In Exile wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

So i was partially right in my assessment of Merrill willingly taking up Wryme's offer?

Keep in mind that it's my take on it. I can't recall what the writer said (I don't even recall if it was DG or Sheryl)  exactly. But my recollection is that the scene could have used more work to portray it convincingly to the player. 

Well, at the very least, they did try to work the betrayles based on the flaws of the characters.   Merrill being tempted by a pride demon (because she's arrogant) and Isabela being tempted by the desire demon (because she's greedy).

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 09 janvier 2013 - 06:00 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Wasn't that the same developer of Bioware who said that there were no stupid and insane mages in Kirkwall? Guess Decimus, Grace, Tahrone, Huon, and all the other insane and stupid mage antagonists weren't really insane and stupid then.

Desparate and crazy, more like it. Decimus and Tahrone certainly walk a fine line. And with people like Karras around, I'm not about to put Houn or Grace above it.

Sarcasm aside, it really doesn't change the fact that we have characters trying to murder one of their friends after a few seconds because a demon made them an implausible offer. I doubt any sane person in the real world would try to murder a friend simply because someone made them an offer.

Hawke does that all the time. And whether or not people IRL would do that, your party is still a group of sociopaths who kill people for kicks ("adventure") and treasure.

In my hypothetical scenario? Orlais is having a civil war, it's the seat of the Chantry, and it has Circles of Magi in the nation (the exact number of which seem to vary, depending on the source - the lore has been inconsistent on this point).

It would be exactly like the French Revolution: it doesn't matter if its isolated to one country that is the massive continental power - it's a threat to the existing order the likes of which hasn't happened since (in DA) Andraste herself. Powerful people, who see mages line up their contemporaries and cut off their heads will see the end of the progression of mage freedom in their countries: their own death and the execution of their friends and families.

That will lead to war.

In this hypothetical scenario? They can do what the Dalish did when the humans conquered their nation because they refused to convert to the Chantry. They can go elsewhere.

Oh, so you're just going to take all of their land and money? Well, that's going to go over well. The Dalish had nothing - the non-mage non-humans might not be willing or able to do anything else as refugees, but the other Andrastian nations certainly won't take the saking of the Chantry easily (since it sounds like that's also what you want to do).

I'm pretty sure murdering an entire population of mages in a Circle of Magi is different than killing specific people who are trying to kill you because you're seeking to emancipate mages and elves.

In the Rite, you don't murder everyone. You would also make Tranquil the mages who surrender. Which your offer of their wealth and livelihood being stolen and them being exiled foreover from their homes is not many steps above.

It's a mass killing, no matter how much you want to gloss over it. The templars are doing it to protect mundanes from abomination and blood mages, and that justification doesn't cut it. Yours doesn't either. You're every bit as bad as they are, morally.

Deciding that I would rather throw my lot in with the elves (who are living in occupied Dales) over the Empress or the Duke is simply putting my efforts into helping a disenfranchised group over two petty politicans I could care less about.

You're participating in mass killings. You're advocating for mass killing?

There's a civil war in Orlais. I'm talking about putting my lot with the elves over the humans. Blood is being shed because the Empress and the Duke are fighting for the throne. Why should I help them, when I help the elves who have no one in their corner?

Oh, so it is racially motivated mass killing now? 

And how do you think the human mages will deal with this elven supremacist narrative that you want to throw in there? 

What did my elven Warden call that when Leliana told him about how elves are treated in Orlais? Oh yeah - slavery.

First of all, what the Elven Warden who was never in Orlais said is about as relevant as fan-fiction.

But ignoring that, it still doesn't answer the question. What are you going to do about all the humans you've just thrown into poverty and desttituon? Are you saying you'll enslave them? 

Because at this point, once you've already said that you want to use blood magic from the start, you want to engage in mass killings (on racial lines!), if you add slavery into the mix you've already got the Tevinter Imperium.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Wasn't that the same developer of Bioware who said that there were no stupid and insane mages in Kirkwall? Guess Decimus, Grace, Tahrone, Huon, and all the other insane and stupid mage antagonists weren't really insane and stupid then. [/quote]

Desparate and crazy, more like it. Decimus and Tahrone certainly walk a fine line. And with people like Karras around, I'm not about to put Houn or Grace above it. [/quote]

Thinking that Merrill, Isabela, and Varric are templars is stupid. Anyone following a raving lunatic like Tahrone (who looks like a crack addict) is stupid. Thinking that the person who killed templars to help you go free was secretly trying to betray you is stupid. Not desperate, but stupid.

I really hope that the mages and templars are allowed to be three-dimensional in this story. I don't think anyone needs to deal with one-dimensional mages and templars anymore.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarcasm aside, it really doesn't change the fact that we have characters trying to murder one of their friends after a few seconds because a demon made them an implausible offer. I doubt any sane person in the real world would try to murder a friend simply because someone made them an offer. [/quote]

Hawke does that all the time. And whether or not people IRL would do that, your party is still a group of sociopaths who kill people for kicks ("adventure") and treasure. [/quote]

I don't think Hawke kills his friends all the time.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

In my hypothetical scenario? Orlais is having a civil war, it's the seat of the Chantry, and it has Circles of Magi in the nation (the exact number of which seem to vary, depending on the source - the lore has been inconsistent on this point). [/quote]

It would be exactly like the French Revolution: it doesn't matter if its isolated to one country that is the massive continental power - it's a threat to the existing order the likes of which hasn't happened since (in DA) Andraste herself. Powerful people, who see mages line up their contemporaries and cut off their heads will see the end of the progression of mage freedom in their countries: their own death and the execution of their friends and families.

That will lead to war. [/quote]

There's the Mage-Templar War that is occupying almost all of Thedas. Orlais is in a civil war. I think it would be a good opportunity for the elves to try to regain control of occupied Dales. With assistance - possibly from the Dalish and the mages - I think it could work. That was what the hypothetical scenario was all about.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

In this hypothetical scenario? They can do what the Dalish did when the humans conquered their nation because they refused to convert to the Chantry. They can go elsewhere. [/quote]

Oh, so you're just going to take all of their land and money? Well, that's going to go over well. The Dalish had nothing - the non-mage non-humans might not be willing or able to do anything else as refugees, but the other Andrastian nations certainly won't take the saking of the Chantry easily (since it sounds like that's also what you want to do). [/quote]

Take back the Dales for the elves, and possibly Orlais as well, given that it was the seat of power for the empire that took land and money from everyone else, including the elves who lost everything when they took the Dales.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm pretty sure murdering an entire population of mages in a Circle of Magi is different than killing specific people who are trying to kill you because you're seeking to emancipate mages and elves. [/quote]

In the Rite, you don't murder everyone. You would also make Tranquil the mages who surrender. Which your offer of their wealth and livelihood being stolen and them being exiled foreover from their homes is not many steps above.

It's a mass killing, no matter how much you want to gloss over it. The templars are doing it to protect mundanes from abomination and blood mages, and that justification doesn't cut it. Yours doesn't either. You're every bit as bad as they are, morally. [/quote]

Actually, you do kill everyone in the Right of Annulment - men, women, and children; in the extreme occassions you don't, those survivors are made tranquil, which I think is a horrific practice, and it would be outlawed in my hypothetical scenario. Again, killing the nobility who oppose you because you're deposing them isn't the same as committing genocide.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Deciding that I would rather throw my lot in with the elves (who are living in occupied Dales) over the Empress or the Duke is simply putting my efforts into helping a disenfranchised group over two petty politicans I could care less about. [/quote]

You're participating in mass killings. You're advocating for mass killing? [/quote]

Of nobles and their hired henchmen who are trying to kill me, in this hypothetical scenario. The mass killings of specific people who are trying to kill me - like the mass killings of The Warden killing pretty much everyone who tried to kill him, or the mass killings of everyone who tried to kill the Champion of Kirkwall.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a civil war in Orlais. I'm talking about putting my lot with the elves over the humans. Blood is being shed because the Empress and the Duke are fighting for the throne. Why should I help them, when I help the elves who have no one in their corner? [/quote]

Oh, so it is racially motivated mass killing now? 

And how do you think the human mages will deal with this elven supremacist narrative that you want to throw in there? [/quote]

Your last remark is bordering on trolling, and I don't appreciate it. Since I have no interest in siding with either the Empress or the Duke, I would prefer to side with the elves who have had everything stolen from them. Putting my lot with disenfranchised elves who have had everything taken from them, as opposed to two wealthy nobles who run an empire that I loathe.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

What did my elven Warden call that when Leliana told him about how elves are treated in Orlais? Oh yeah - slavery. [/quote]

First of all, what the Elven Warden who was never in Orlais said is about as relevant as fan-fiction.

But ignoring that, it still doesn't answer the question. What are you going to do about all the humans you've just thrown into poverty and desttituon? Are you saying you'll enslave them? [/quote]

Like I said before, in this hypothetical scenario, they can do what the Dalish did - go elsewhere. It's basically the Dalish Boon, except extended to the nation of the occupied Dales, and possibly Orlais. After all, there were people living in the Hinterlands (since the village of Honneleath is located in that region).

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Because at this point, once you've already said that you want to use blood magic from the start, you want to engage in mass killings (on racial lines!), if you add slavery into the mix you've already got the Tevinter Imperium.  [/quote]

The only person who mentioned slavery is you. And the only person who mentioned killing civilians is you. You seem to be confused. Allow me to clarify the situation for you: I would prefer to help the impoverished elves who have had everything stolen from them, as opposed to two nobles who I could care less about. It's basically siding with the elves, rather than the Empress or the Duke.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Like I said before, in this hypothetical scenario, they can do what the Dalish did - go elsewhere. It's basically the Dalish Boon, except extended to the nation of the occupied Dales, and possibly Orlais. After all, there were people living in the Hinterlands (since the village of Honneleath is located in that region).

The epilogue slide talks of human lands welcoming the dalish rather than simply depopulating the area for their benefit. What you are suggesting is to take from innocent people everything they have ever known and loved, land that their families has likely cultivated for generations because of something that happened 300 years ago and that no one alive today played any part in-
And you seriously don't see anything wrong with that?

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...



The epilogue slide talks of human lands welcoming the dalish rather than simply depopulating the area for their benefit. What you are suggesting is to take from innocent people everything they have ever known and loved, land that their families has likely cultivated for generations because of something that happened 300 years ago and that no one alive today played any part in-
And you seriously don't see anything wrong with that?

It's even more than that. It's been over 700 years.
I'm not against elves having a new homeland, but not in the way Lobsel suggested, and certainly not the entire Orlais.
Not that the other human kingdoms will gladly allow it. An elven occupation on that scale (other than practically impossible, given the power of the various sides) would likely cause an alliance of nations. And the elves don't have the power to overcome them.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Like I said before, in this hypothetical scenario, they can do what the Dalish did - go elsewhere. It's basically the Dalish Boon, except extended to the nation of the occupied Dales, and possibly Orlais. After all, there were people living in the Hinterlands (since the village of Honneleath is located in that region). 

The epilogue slide talks of human lands welcoming the dalish rather than simply depopulating the area for their benefit.

The King or Queen gives the Hinterlands in the elves in the Dalish Boon; the entire land, up to and including the ruins of Ostagar. The Hinterlands belong to the Dalish as a result.

You're conflating how the Dalish are treated by humans in their own villages outside of the Hinterlands with the fact that the elves receive land that was previously inhabited by humans, since you're talking about two entirely different slides.

MisterJB wrote...

What you are suggesting is to take from innocent people everything they have ever known and loved, land that their families has likely cultivated for generations because of something that happened 300 years ago and that no one alive today played any part in-
And you seriously don't see anything wrong with that? 

So the elves can keep living in the cramped, impoverished Alienages and remain servants of the nobles, with no representation? Living at the mercy of the humans, who can commit genocide at any time they desire to "purge" the Alienage? Maybe I think that shouldn't be the case.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

[

So the elves can keep living in the cramped, impoverished Alienages and remain servants of the nobles, with no representation? Living at the mercy of the humans, who can commit genocide at any time they desire to "purge" the Alienage? Maybe I think that shouldn't be the case.

This is fine. Elves should be treated better. They should either be fully integrated in the human's societies or having a new homeland. But not an entire human nation.
You simply want to give elves a new homeland and make a part of humans pay for what happened in the past. This would lead to death, pain, and other wars, in which the elves could potentially lost again. A solution in which both races learn to live in peace is needed, otherwise wars, subjugation ans slavery will always happen.

[In Exile]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Thinking that Merrill, Isabela, and Varric are templars is stupid.  [/quote]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you mean here.

[quote]Anyone following a raving lunatic like Tahrone (who looks like a crack addict) is stupid. [/quote]

It's funny you say that.

[quote]Thinking that the person who killed templars to help you go free was secretly trying to betray you is stupid. Not desperate, but stupid. [/quote]

You honestly need to familiarize yourself with what abuse actually does to people.

[quote]I really hope that the mages and templars are allowed to be three-dimensional in this story. I don't think anyone needs to deal with one-dimensional mages and templars anymore. [/quote]

I thought DA2 did a very good job at showing how the system of Circles breaks people. Not in a heroic way, but in a horrible and self-destructive way.

[quote]I don't think Hawke kills his friends all the time.[/quote]

I meant the killing part for ridiculous promises of wealth. I should have clarified.

[quote]There's the Mage-Templar War that is occupying almost all of Thedas. Orlais is in a civil war. I think it would be a good opportunity for the elves to try to regain control of occupied Dales. With assistance - possibly from the Dalish and the mages - I think it could work. That was what the hypothetical scenario was all about. [/quote]

Military conquest, and military victories, aren't the relevant issue here. The issue is what happens after. That has to be the key question for the mage suffragist movement: how do we gain independence, not how to we ensure that we all die in a genocidal exalted march.

[quote]Take back the Dales for the elves, and possibly Orlais as well, given that it was the seat of power for the empire that took land and money from everyone else, including the elves who lost everything when they took the Dales. [/quote]

That doesn't answer the question: what are you going to do about the people you depose? Murder them all? Exile them? Enslave them? 

And what happens if the rest of Thedas isn't cool with your mass killings/deporation/seizures?

[quote]Actually, you do kill everyone in the Right of Annulment - men, women, and children; in the extreme occassions you don't, those survivors are made tranquil, which I think is a horrific practice, and it would be outlawed in my hypothetical scenario.  [/quote]

You're wrong. It's entirely up to the discretion of the templars and the behaviour of the mages what happens. If you're going to retort with thinking that templars would ignore surrenders and just murder, i.e., if you want to talk about this realistically, then let's do it this way:

You think the elves aren't going to steal, murder, sack, rape and pillage throughout Orlais in a medieval military war? Get real. There will be corposes on corposes, and if people like Velana have any say in what the Dalish do, it will be genocide.

[quote]Again, killing the nobility who oppose you because you're deposing them isn't the same as committing genocide. [/quote]

A mass killing along racial and religious lines is genocidal. Again, do you even know what a purge is?

[quote]Of nobles and their hired henchmen who are trying to kill me, in this hypothetical scenario. [/quote]

No. You said purges. I am not letting you backtrack from this reprehensible view. This was Xi's post:

I'm trying to think of ways to handle this
that don't involve Bolshevik-style purges, but I admit that nothing is
coming.

This is what you said:

A purge might be necessary when the alternative for mages and elves is slavery and subjugation.

Do you even know what the Bolshevik's did!? 

This isn't about killing people in war. This is about breaking down doors, grabbing children from their beds, and executing them. That's what you're advocating when you're talking about killing nobles. How many children will you kill before you're just as bad as the templars? How many children would Meredith have murdered in Kirkwall!?

There is no excuse for this.

[quote]The mass killings of specific people who are trying to kill me - like the mass killings of The Warden killing pretty much everyone who tried to kill him, or the mass killings of everyone who tried to kill the Champion of Kirkwall.[/quote]

No. That's garbage. You condoned Bolshevik style purges. You don't get to backtrack from that.


[quote]Your last remark is bordering on trolling, and I don't appreciate it. Since I have no interest in siding with either the Empress or the Duke, I would prefer to side with the elves who have had everything stolen from them.  [/quote]

You condoned Bolshevik style purges.  I wouldn't side with either of them myself, but that doesn't mean I want to kill every 5 year old noble child in Orlais!

[quote]Putting my lot with disenfranchised elves who have had everything taken from them, as opposed to two wealthy nobles who run an empire that I loathe. [/quote]

You condonded purges. This has nothing to do with siding with anyone! 

[quoteLike I said before, in this hypothetical scenario, they can do what the Dalish did - go elsewhere. [/quote]

So you're going to take their wealth, and forcibly exile them? Because what the Chantry did to the Dales was so vile, you just want to get in on it and do it to someone else yourself?

[quote]The only person who mentioned slavery is you.[/quote]

No. The person who mentioned slavery was you. Here's what the exchange was:

What did my elven Warden call that when Leliana told him about how elves are treated in Orlais? Oh yeah - slavery.

Since what I asked was:

The general populace could very well oppose you when you execute their
leaders and take away their livelihoods, and especially when you tell
them their elven servants are now their leaders and mages run the
kingdom.

And then what do you do?

I was sincerely asking if you were advocating enslaving them as retribution for the elves, since you're already advocating mass killing.

[quote]And the only person who mentioned killing civilians is you. [/quote]

To get you to stop dodging the question. What are you going to do about people who don't want to go into forcible exile after you've killed every noble man, woman, and child in Orlais?

Do you honestly think that Orlesian noble children are something other than civilians?

[quote] I would prefer to help the impoverished elves who have had everything stolen from them, as opposed to two nobles who I could care less about. It's basically siding with the elves, rather than the Empress or the Duke.[/quote]

No. You don't get to get away with the morally repugnant horror you advocated for. Let me quote you again:

Xi: Not as easy as it sounds,
especially as Orlais' nobility seems to consist of living poison. I'm
trying to think of ways to handle this that don't involve
Bolshevik-style purges, but I admit that nothing is coming.

You: A purge might be necessary when the alternative for mages and elves is slavery and subjugation.

This is beyond picking a side in a war. This is repeatedly talking about and condoning mass killing, especially with regards to children (and men and women who wouldn't even pick up weapons). Not to mention forcible deportation!

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the elves can keep living in the cramped, impoverished Alienages and remain servants of the nobles, with no representation? Living at the mercy of the humans, who can commit genocide at any time they desire to "purge" the Alienage? Maybe I think that shouldn't be the case. 

This is fine. Elves should be treated better. They should either be fully integrated in the human's societies or having a new homeland. But not an entire human nation.

Elves who have tried to live outside of the Alienage get their homes burned down. There is rampant racism among humans. It hasn't changed for a millennia. It didn't change when an elf stopped the Fourth Blight. It won't change if an elf stops the Fifth Blight. Why do you think it would change now?

hhh89 wrote...

You simply want to give elves a new homeland and make a part of humans pay for what happened in the past. This would lead to death, pain, and other wars, in which the elves could potentially lost again. A solution in which both races learn to live in peace is needed, otherwise wars, subjugation ans slavery will always happen. 

The elves could lose, but with the aid of the mages, they could win.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The King or Queen gives the Hinterlands in the elves in the Dalish Boon; the entire land, up to and including the ruins of Ostagar. The Hinterlands belong to the Dalish as a result.

You're conflating how the Dalish are treated by humans in their own villages outside of the Hinterlands with the fact that the elves receive land that was previously inhabited by humans, since you're talking about two entirely different slides.

No king or queen is going to fracture their kingdom like that, much less force their people to rellocate for others. The dalish are allowed to settle in empty places of the Hinterlands, that is all.

So the elves can keep living in the cramped, impoverished Alienages and remain servants of the nobles, with no representation? Living at the mercy of the humans, who can commit genocide at any time they desire to "purge" the Alienage? Maybe I think that shouldn't be the case.

And your solution to social problems; which are caused always by more than one side, mind you; is to steal everything from one group of people based entirely on their race.
Bravo. Please, tell us more of how evil and opressive the Chantry and Templars are.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

You simply want to give elves a new homeland and make a part of humans pay for what happened in the past. This would lead to death, pain, and other wars, in which the elves could potentially lost again. A solution in which both races learn to live in peace is needed, otherwise wars, subjugation ans slavery will always happen. 

The elves could lose, but with the aid of the mages, they could win.

The human mages have nothing to gain by helping the elves as a majority of them would have families in Orlais, and their only beef is with the Templars not whole nations.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


This is fine. Elves should be treated better. They should either be fully integrated in the human's societies or having a new homeland. But not an entire human nation.

Elves who have tried to live outside of the Alienage get their homes burned down. There is rampant racism among humans. It hasn't changed for a millennia. It didn't change when an elf stopped the Fourth Blight. It won't change if an elf stops the Fifth Blight. Why do you think it would change now?

You want to change things. Then try to change it. There is prejudice (with treatment sometimes as bad as toward elves) about mages among non-mages too. Is your solution applying a new Imperium?
A solution like the one you propose will lead to continuos war between humans and elves. For an elven state to succesfully be installed, you either annihilate any other states, or shown you military superiority (which elves probably can't do, but I'll respond more on the second part of your post) or cooperate with the other states. The first solution, if you're not strong enough, would lead to a struggle in which the elves might lose.

hhh89 wrote...

You simply want to give elves a new homeland and make a part of humans pay for what happened in the past. This would lead to death, pain, and other wars, in which the elves could potentially lost again. A solution in which both races learn to live in peace is needed, otherwise wars, subjugation ans slavery will always happen. 

The elves could lose, but with the aid of the mages, they could win.

And you're so sure that the human mages (which are the majority) would side with the elven realm to defeat the other states, and aplly subjugation and slavery on their own race?
Other than the fact that I told you already in the last pages that I'm not sure that an alliance between mages and elves would work. You're so focused on the Chantry-oppression analogy between mages and elves that you forget that elves were first subjugated, with their homeland destoyed, by magisters. Elves might fear a second Imperium if the mages will rise to power.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Elves who have tried to live outside of the Alienage get their homes burned down. There is rampant racism among humans. It hasn't changed for a millennia. It didn't change when an elf stopped the Fourth Blight. It won't change if an elf stops the Fifth Blight. Why do you think it would change now?

It might actually change if the elven reaction to problems wasn't hiding in the Alienage, if they stoped looking at those who attempted a better life with scorn and instead helped them protect their homes; if humans could pass through the alienage without being attacked by gangues; if the elves even tried to join the priesthood and guards like two in Kirkwall did; if they didn't react with anger if an elf takes a human for a husband or bride, elves are quite racist themselves.
The elves are as much to blame for their condition as the humans are. Stop blaming the humans for everything bad that ever happens; push for a better life through legal means rather than hide in the Alienage; protect yourselves without attacking others.
It won't be easy but it's entirely possible and will actually lead to humans and elves coexisting.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The King or Queen gives the Hinterlands in the elves in the Dalish Boon; the entire land, up to and including the ruins of Ostagar. The Hinterlands belong to the Dalish as a result.

You're conflating how the Dalish are treated by humans in their own villages outside of the Hinterlands with the fact that the elves receive land that was previously inhabited by humans, since you're talking about two entirely different slides.

No king or queen is going to fracture their kingdom like that, much less force their people to rellocate for others. The dalish are allowed to settle in empty places of the Hinterlands, that is all.

Have you even seen the scene where the Dalish Boon is given? The King or Queen give the Hinterlands to the Dalish. The elves get their own homeland.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the elves can keep living in the cramped, impoverished Alienages and remain servants of the nobles, with no representation? Living at the mercy of the humans, who can commit genocide at any time they desire to "purge" the Alienage? Maybe I think that shouldn't be the case. 

And your solution to social problems; which are caused always by more than one side, mind you; is to steal everything from one group of people based entirely on their race.

You mean return the Dales to the elves.

MisterJB wrote...

Bravo. Please, tell us more of how evil and opressive the Chantry and Templars are. 

I don't think you can compare giving the elves back their homeland with rape, torture, the Rite of Tranquility, and the Right of Annulment?

[upsettingshorts]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think you can compare giving the elves back their homeland with rape, torture, the Rite of Tranquility, and the Right of Annulment?

They absolutely can if you compel it with violence, and enforce it with purges.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Have you even seen the scene where the Dalish Boon is given? The King or Queen give the Hinterlands to the Dalish. The elves get their own homeland.

Have you seen anyone or anything even mentioning that any human anywhere had to move because of it?

You mean return the Dales to the elves.

The elves lived in the Dales for 300 years. The humans have lived there for 700 years.
They have as much right to it as the elves. One might even say more.

I don't think you can compare giving the elves back their homeland with rape, torture, the Rite of Tranquility, and the Right of Annulment?

Oh yeah, because conquests and forced deportation are a lovely thing, especially in medieval times. No innocents get murdered or raped or mutilated.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 janvier 2013 - 08:17 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Thinking that Merrill, Isabela, and Varric are templars is stupid.  [/quote]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you mean here. [/quote]

The scene with Decimus thinking that Hawke and his moiety crew are templars.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Thinking that the person who killed templars to help you go free was secretly trying to betray you is stupid. Not desperate, but stupid. [/quote]

You honestly need to familiarize yourself with what abuse actually does to people. [/quote]

Makes them act in the same way as if Hawke was pro-templar, to railroad the Plot to a specific path so our choices don't matter?

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I really hope that the mages and templars are allowed to be three-dimensional in this story. I don't think anyone needs to deal with one-dimensional mages and templars anymore. [/quote]

I thought DA2 did a very good job at showing how the system of Circles breaks people. Not in a heroic way, but in a horrible and self-destructive way. [/quote]

By depicting one-dimensional characters on both sides of the argument?

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There's the Mage-Templar War that is occupying almost all of Thedas. Orlais is in a civil war. I think it would be a good opportunity for the elves to try to regain control of occupied Dales. With assistance - possibly from the Dalish and the mages - I think it could work. That was what the hypothetical scenario was all about. [/quote]

Military conquest, and military victories, aren't the relevant issue here. The issue is what happens after. That has to be the key question for the mage suffragist movement: how do we gain independence, not how to we ensure that we all die in a genocidal exalted march. [/quote]

With mages and templars fighting each other across Thedas, I don't think the nations can mobilize to lead an Exalted March.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Take back the Dales for the elves, and possibly Orlais as well, given that it was the seat of power for the empire that took land and money from everyone else, including the elves who lost everything when they took the Dales. [/quote]

That doesn't answer the question: what are you going to do about the people you depose? Murder them all? Exile them? Enslave them? 

And what happens if the rest of Thedas isn't cool with your mass killings/deporation/seizures? [/quote]

Like the Dalish Boon, where the elves are given a homeland and the humans who once lived there have to live elsewhere, the people who are displaced can go elsewhere.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, you do kill everyone in the Right of Annulment - men, women, and children; in the extreme occassions you don't, those survivors are made tranquil, which I think is a horrific practice, and it would be outlawed in my hypothetical scenario. [/quote]

You're wrong. It's entirely up to the discretion of the templars and the behaviour of the mages what happens. If you're going to retort with thinking that templars would ignore surrenders and just murder, i.e., if you want to talk about this realistically, then let's do it this way:

You think the elves aren't going to steal, murder, sack, rape and pillage throughout Orlais in a medieval military war? Get real. There will be corposes on corposes, and if people like Velana have any say in what the Dalish do, it will be genocide. [/quote]

Actually, one of the developers addressed the Right of Annulment:

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright.[/quote]

Apparently, the order is "kill everyone."

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Again, killing the nobility who oppose you because you're deposing them isn't the same as committing genocide. [/quote]

A mass killing along racial and religious lines is genocidal. Again, do you even know what a purge is? [/quote]

Like the purges of the Alienages, when the elves start demanding rights and food? Yes, which is why I think the elves deserve to get their homeland back.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Of nobles and their hired henchmen who are trying to kill me, in this hypothetical scenario. [/quote]

No. You said purges. I am not letting you backtrack from this reprehensible view. This was Xi's post:

I'm trying to think of ways to handle this
that don't involve Bolshevik-style purges, but I admit that nothing is
coming.

This is what you said:

A purge might be necessary when the alternative for mages and elves is slavery and subjugation.

Do you even know what the Bolshevik's did!? [/quote]

A purge of the nobility who oppose the protagonist, and are actively trying to kill the protagonist, which Xil confirmed was what we were discussing. If you can't bother to read the entire discussion, you really shouldn't bother posting. If you need clarification, you're welcome to ask, instead of making assumptions and assuming you're correct.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The mass killings of specific people who are trying to kill me - like the mass killings of The Warden killing pretty much everyone who tried to kill him, or the mass killings of everyone who tried to kill the Champion of Kirkwall.[/quote]

No. That's garbage. You condoned Bolshevik style purges. You don't get to backtrack from that. [/quote]

I'm starting to find your retorts to be garbage, since you ignored that Xil already clarified this matter to someone in a later post, and didn't even bother to ask for clarification on the matter yourself. You really can't backtrack on making asinine comments that are disproven by previous posts.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Your last remark is bordering on trolling, and I don't appreciate it. Since I have no interest in siding with either the Empress or the Duke, I would prefer to side with the elves who have had everything stolen from them.  [/quote]

You condoned Bolshevik style purges.  I wouldn't side with either of them myself, but that doesn't mean I want to kill every 5 year old noble child in Orlais!  [/quote]

You've made one baseless assumption after another, even when prior posts already disprove what you claim. I'm starting to see why Xil has stopped responding to your posts.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Putting my lot with disenfranchised elves who have had everything taken from them, as opposed to two wealthy nobles who run an empire that I loathe. [/quote]

You condonded purges. This has nothing to do with siding with anyone! [/quote]

I have to admire how much of my time you wasted by ignoring the posts where Xil already clarified that we were addressing nobles who actively opposed us, since that was what I was addressing. Your confusion on the matter isn't fact.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Like I said before, in this hypothetical scenario, they can do what the Dalish did - go elsewhere. [/quote]

So you're going to take their wealth, and forcibly exile them? Because what the Chantry did to the Dales was so vile, you just want to get in on it and do it to someone else yourself? [/quote]

I want to give the elves back their homeland - the Dales. Orlais was always optional in this hypothetical scenario, as I said before.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The only person who mentioned slavery is you. [/quote]

No. The person who mentioned slavery was you. [/quote]

You mentioned it as part of my hypothetical. It wasn't.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Here's what the exchange was:

What did my elven Warden call that when Leliana told him about how elves are treated in Orlais? Oh yeah - slavery.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

I was sincerely asking if you were advocating enslaving them as retribution for the elves, since you're already advocating mass killing. [/quote] [/quote]

Of specific people who are actively trying to kill the protagonist - nobles and guardsmen, which I already clarified to you several times prior to you making these asinine assumptions that have no basis in reality when I already clarified the matter for you with multiple posts.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And the only person who mentioned killing civilians is you. [/quote]

To get you to stop dodging the question. What are you going to do about people who don't want to go into forcible exile after you've killed every noble man, woman, and child in Orlais?

[quote]Do you honestly think that Orlesian noble children are something other than civilians? [/quote][/quote]

Probably what King Alistair and Queen Anora did when they gave the Hinterlands to the elves - relocate them elsewhere. The humans can leave the Dales and live somewhere else.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I would prefer to help the impoverished elves who have had everything stolen from them, as opposed to two nobles who I could care less about. It's basically siding with the elves, rather than the Empress or the Duke. [/quote]

No. You don't get to get away with the morally repugnant horror you advocated for. [/quote]

Feel free to actually quote Xil and I addressing that we were talking about the nobility who opposed us, if you want to stop looking like a troll. Just a suggestion.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

This is beyond picking a side in a war. This is repeatedly talking about and condoning mass killing, especially with regards to children (and men and women who wouldn't even pick up weapons). Not to mention forcible deportation! [/quote]

Which is already the case with the Dalish Boon, since I doubt Alistair or Anora expect the humans to live in the sky when they gave the land to the elves. They had to live somewhere else.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 09 janvier 2013 - 08:27 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ooh, in the sequel can I help the wrongfully uprooted humans retake the land stolen from them by that foolish King Alistair?

The way cycles of violence, be they allegedly corrective in their motivation or not, work in history is so much fun.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 janvier 2013 - 08:30 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
A purge of the nobility who oppose the protagonist, and are actively trying to kill the protagonist, which Xil confirmed was what we were discussing.

And you think that the human population living in the territory you want to give to the elves are just going tp pack up and move things? That you wouldn't have to kill many and more of them?

But fine, let's talk about the nobles. Let's assume that the elves were given...Redcliff by Anora. And let's assume that the humans have to move.
Eamon does not accept this and you can't blame him. His people have lived there for generations, that is their land.
He may or may not be willing to let the elves live alongside the humans and he may or may not be about to use violence but he is not moving and neither is anyone else in Redcliff.

And your suggestion is to kill him and Teagan and Connor certainly unless you want to have him try to retake his father's Arling eventually.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Have you even seen the scene where the Dalish Boon is given? The King or Queen give the Hinterlands to the Dalish. The elves get their own homeland.

Have you seen anyone or anything even mentioning that any human anywhere had to move because of it?

If the homeland is given to the elves, logic dictates that the humans would need to relocate somewhere else because the land belongs to the elves, and they are going to move in to live there. The ruler of Ferelden gives the Hinterlands to the Dalish, up to and including the ruins of Ostagar.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean return the Dales to the elves.

The elves lived in the Dales for 300 years. The humans have lived there for 700 years.

They have as much right to it as the elves. One might even say more.

Elves still live in the occupied Dales, so that argument doesn't really work.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think you can compare giving the elves back their homeland with rape, torture, the Rite of Tranquility, and the Right of Annulment? 

Oh yeah, because conquests and forced deportation are a lovely thing, especially in medieval times. No innocents get murdered or raped or mutilated. 

I imagine that's pretty much what the elves have had to deal with every day of their lives - which is why I would prefer to see them govern themselves. Again, this was part of a hypothetical discussion, since I said I would like the option to help the elves reclaim the Dales rather than help either the Empress or the Duke, so I don't see the point in arguing my opinion over yours over a hypothetical scenario.

[TheJediSaint]

Oh look, a flame war. I thought I smelled smoke.