353 réponses à ce sujet

[Estelindis]

It's polite to label spoilers. I was waiting until after Christmas to buy the book in case anyone was going to give it to me. I have now been spoiled. I am unhappy about this.

[Zardoc]

Estelindis wrote...

It's polite to label spoilers. I was waiting until after Christmas to buy the book in case anyone was going to give it to me. I have now been spoiled. I am unhappy about this.

You had a more than a whole year to buy and read it. Seems like your own fault, really.

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
To always push for complete and total freedom and accept no compromises on that point.

I was going to say that next it would be quarantined people who would start a revolution to push for complete and total freedom but, well, sick people can't really fight back.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 janvier 2013 - 12:58 .

[Shadow Fox]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I'd like it to be someone who wants a few simple things in life: a nice town house, a workshop in which they can sell their magical wares, a family with children who will never be taken away from them, and an expectation of having to have committed a crime before they're punished. And anyone who objects to them having these things will die a fiery death.

I'd also want them to be very disdainful of anyone who's prepared to stop fighting in exchange for later bedtimes and a promise that no Templar will enter a mage's room without express invitation. To always push for complete and total freedom and accept no compromises on that point.

So "our way or the highway" huh? That's fine as long as you agree the Temps also have the right to kill the rebels on sight.

[Althix]

hmmm... only i think that mages don't have a chance in open war against templars? few in numbers, no resources, you can't win a war on support of the family only. considering that mages are feared not many will aid them by food or water or place to stay.
Also i am sure not all of the circles favor this rebellion, there is also a faction who fully support the divine.
Mages can not win in open battle, they can't win in war of attrition. Only decent option for them is guerilla warfare, targeting key figures in divine army and office. Maybe in the way as Anders murdered grand cleric and civilians.

Also not all of the mages are battle mages. There are healers, scholars, scientists. Also i doubt divine is so eager to destroy all mages, i am sure that this "rebellion" will end in peace talks eventually. Mages have no future as the side that won.

So if Irving is out of the picture, Wynne is dead. So yeah i guess it's up to Rhys of what his name is.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:17 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I'd like it to be someone who wants a few simple things in life: a nice town house, a workshop in which they can sell their magical wares, a family with children who will never be taken away from them, and an expectation of having to have committed a crime before they're punished. And anyone who objects to them having these things will die a fiery death.

I'd also want them to be very disdainful of anyone who's prepared to stop fighting in exchange for later bedtimes and a promise that no Templar will enter a mage's room without express invitation. To always push for complete and total freedom and accept no compromises on that point.

So "our way or the highway" huh? That's fine as long as you agree the Temps also have the right to kill the rebels on sight.

I imagine we are far beyond 'rights' territory and deep into 'coercion through the use of force' territory. I just think that there is a significant percentage of mages who would like to be treated as law-abiding adults and that the recent behavior of the Chantry and the Templars has made violence to look like the best way to achieve that.

I also wouldn't mind if the rebellion leader was an apostate. Someone who knows for a fact that a mage can function in normal society and whose only experiences with Templars included big armored guys trying to take their life away from them.

[The Elder King]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...



I also wouldn't mind if the rebellion leader was an apostate. Someone who knows for a fact that a mage can function in normal society and whose only experiences with Templars included big armored guys trying to take their life away from them.

I don't mind an apostate leader, as long as he/she doesn't have a spirit/demon in his/her head.
Though I think high-ranking Circle mages have more changes of becoming a leader, since they're more known and respected by the mages, which are (at least at the end of Asunder) the majority. The only apostate mage who I think could have enough fame to be a leader would be Anders, which I don't think he'd be easily voted (regardless my adversity to his little friend in his head). Loyalist and part (don't know how large) of Aequitarians, and possibly some from the Isolationist and the Lucratives (don't remember if those last two are right) would oppose him.

[Shadow Fox]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I'd like it to be someone who wants a few simple things in life: a nice town house, a workshop in which they can sell their magical wares, a family with children who will never be taken away from them, and an expectation of having to have committed a crime before they're punished. And anyone who objects to them having these things will die a fiery death.

I'd also want them to be very disdainful of anyone who's prepared to stop fighting in exchange for later bedtimes and a promise that no Templar will enter a mage's room without express invitation. To always push for complete and total freedom and accept no compromises on that point.

So "our way or the highway" huh? That's fine as long as you agree the Temps also have the right to kill the rebels on sight.

I imagine we are far beyond 'rights' territory and deep into 'coercion through the use of force' territory. I just think that there is a significant percentage of mages who would like to be treated as law-abiding adults and that the recent behavior of the Chantry and the Templars has made violence to look like the best way to achieve that.

I also wouldn't mind if the rebellion leader was an apostate. Someone who knows for a fact that a mage can function in normal society and whose only experiences with Templars included big armored guys trying to take their life away from them.

All I'm saying is if mages want to go to war for they're freedom they better be damn willing to fight it and be prepared for the fallout as should the Templars ethier way it'll be bloody and both sides will hold the blame.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I'd like to start out by saying I always find it funny when people who support to Templars and the Chantry have the nerve to preach about control and responsibility. I for one would never be leactured on the importance of control by drug users (Templar addiction to Lyrium) and laugh in the face of anyone who talks about responsibility from drug pushers (Chantry). The hypocrocy is always amazing.

That being said the face of the Mage rebellion has to be someone who is morally better than the Chantry and Templars. Someone who can show the world that the way the world sees all mages is wrong and that mages deserve a better lot in life than what they are given. Heck depending your save files you can have a Mage who saved the world from the Blight.

This is the system that Thedas should have with Mages. Every mage once they are identified as a mage should have a philacory made for the same reason as they're used now. The Circle is still used but is used as a school for young mages so they can learn to use and control their magic. Once the mage has learned to control their magic they go through a Harrowing, once they've passed their Harrowing they are released from the Circle and are free to live their lives however they want. Once they are free of the Circle every few weeks they are required to go to a place where they are examined to confirm that the mage isn't possessed by a demon. Once they're clear they get to leave and go home.

In cases where the mage doesn't show up for their weekly check up the Philactory will be used to find the mage and determine what's up. Now this system is at least to me the perfect solution, mages that don't fall to demons get to live completely free lives and now that mages know that they can have free lives as long as they are stong willed the amount of mages who are going to be willing to give up that chance for freedom just so they can make a pointless deal with a demon will be far less than we have now.

The reason there are so many abominations in Thedas is because mages see only two ways their lives are going to end. Either accept that you're going to live and die in that tower unable to have a family, or children, or freedom. Or make a deal with a demon for the off chance that they might end up better off than they are now. If they are given assurance that they will be free than they won't throw that life away.

[Dean_the_Young]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I'd like it to be someone who wants a few simple things in life: a nice town house, a workshop in which they can sell their magical wares, a family with children who will never be taken away from them, and an expectation of having to have committed a crime before they're punished. And anyone who objects to them having these things will die a fiery death.

I'd also want them to be very disdainful of anyone who's prepared to stop fighting in exchange for later bedtimes and a promise that no Templar will enter a mage's room without express invitation. To always push for complete and total freedom and accept no compromises on that point.

No compromise, no accountability, and no mercy? That could work.

It would be even better if the unrealistic expectations were played up for such a character: the idea of a nice town house (meaning clothes, furniture, warmth, food, discretionary income) of a comfortable sedantry existence would clash nicely with realities of what most normal people deal with. Most mages already live about as well as minor nobles, rather than peasonts or less established merchants. Couple with that what 'total freedom' would mean in practice in a mostly feudal setting: taxes, nobility, and military drafting, oh my! Would such a mage be subject to the Right of Conscription?

[Dean_the_Young]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I also wouldn't mind if the rebellion leader was an apostate. Someone who knows for a fact that a mage can function in normal society and whose only experiences with Templars included big armored guys trying to take their life away from them.

What apostates function in a normal society*? Most keep their heads down and avoid using their skills openly (the Hawkes), prey on others (the various mage cabals we see in DAO, DA2), or are recluses with little Human contact (Morrigan).

*Well, besides Tevinter. But that's not really a 'normal' society.



I could see an Apostate leader being something of a self-professed Robin Hood-sort of character, but more crooked. The sort who's like 'the people are good, as long as you sneak around them right.'

[Wulfram]

There should be at least two faces - one for the eager revolutionary, another for the mage who is basically only fighting because they were going to get annulled along with everyone else in their circle.

[Althix]

yeah Hawke... there is templar in the docks in act1 asking for Apostates.
hawke casting fireball on cantra assassins
templar: did you saw any apostate mages?
hawke: hold on a sec *casting winter's grasp* Apostates? no i didn't saw any
templar: ok

Tevinter have normal society when mages are free. there is not only common folks who are mages, but there is also sons and daughters of royalty and nobles. funny thing right?

Modifié par secretsandlies, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:14 .

[HighMoon]

Someone like Enjolras... Handsome, confident and charismatic!

[SeptimusMagistos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What apostates function in a normal society? Most keep their heads down and avoid using their skills openly (the Hawkes), prey on others (the various mage cabals we see in DAO, DA2), or are recluses with little Human contact (Morrigan).

Presumbably someone from the first group. With an attitude of "I've never received Circle instruction or met a Templar that wasn't trying to kill me, but I never got possessed by a demon or used my powers to hurt others." As such, they see no need for Chantry or its controls. Maybe they're right, maybe they've just been lucky. Leave that to the player to judge.

[The Elder King]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I'd like to start out by saying I always find it funny when people who support to Templars and the Chantry have the nerve to preach about control and responsibility. I for one would never be leactured on the importance of control by drug users (Templar addiction to Lyrium) and laugh in the face of anyone who talks about responsibility from drug pushers (Chantry). The hypocrocy is always amazing.

Is this about not wanting a mage leader which have a spirit inside his head? Other than the fact that I believe that even pro-templars or pro-Chantry could express their worrying about the mage leader being not enough responsible or in control, I'm not pro-anything. I pick mages in DA2 because of the context of the decision (the Circle wasn't responsible for what happened to the Chantry. The templars, Hawke and Varric in the first two Acts are more responsible for not preventing it/finding Anders/protecting Anders).

[Althix]

protecting Anders? man is an abomination. he should be put down hard, which also involves decapitation. should i remind you how it almost killed a girl? or expression on his face when all was ready for detonation when you talk to him in clinic.

So no abominations as mages leader or speaker. for many reasons.

[The Elder King]

secretsandlies wrote...

protecting Anders? man is an abomination. he should be put down hard, which also involves decapitation. should i remind you how it almost killed a girl? or expression on his face when all was ready for detonation when you talk to him in clinic.

So no abominations as mages leader or speaker. for many reasons.

I think you failed to realize my point. I was saying that the Kirkwall Circle isn't involved in the Chantry's destruction, while the templars (for failing to finding him in Acts 1-2 or prevent the destruction) and Varric and Hawke (for protecting him) are more responsible to what happened. I never said that abominations are good for mage leaders. I said in at least two post in this thread that I don't want a mage leader with a spirit in his head.

[Plaintiff]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I'd like it to be someone who wants a few simple things in life: a nice town house, a workshop in which they can sell their magical wares, a family with children who will never be taken away from them, and an expectation of having to have committed a crime before they're punished. And anyone who objects to them having these things will die a fiery death.

I'd also want them to be very disdainful of anyone who's prepared to stop fighting in exchange for later bedtimes and a promise that no Templar will enter a mage's room without express invitation. To always push for complete and total freedom and accept no compromises on that point.

No compromise, no accountability, and no mercy? That could work.

It would be even better if the unrealistic expectations were played up for such a character: the idea of a nice town house (meaning clothes, furniture, warmth, food, discretionary income) of a comfortable sedantry existence would clash nicely with realities of what most normal people deal with. Most mages already live about as well as minor nobles, rather than peasonts or less established merchants. Couple with that what 'total freedom' would mean in practice in a mostly feudal setting: taxes, nobility, and military drafting, oh my! Would such a mage be subject to the Right of Conscription?

Mages can be drafted, there is no law protecting them from that, and a comfortable prison is still a prison. The fact remains that mages are denied extremely basic freedoms that everyone else in Thedas takes for granted.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:35 .

[Althix]

there is more. Hawke can inform Cullen that Anders is planning to strike on Chantry. Cullen did nothing, but Hawke could. But he didn't.
I can blame Anders for becoming an abomination and destruction of church, but Cullen and Hawke are guilty even more.

Abomination can't see a reason, can't be trusted and should not lead. Also Templars would not speak with a possessed mage, they will kill it. And we know that Templars are deadly when fighting mages.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:40 .

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I'd like it to be someone who wants a few simple things in life: a nice town house, a workshop in which they can sell their magical wares, a family with children who will never be taken away from them, and an expectation of having to have committed a crime before they're punished. And anyone who objects to them having these things will die a fiery death.

I'd also want them to be very disdainful of anyone who's prepared to stop fighting in exchange for later bedtimes and a promise that no Templar will enter a mage's room without express invitation. To always push for complete and total freedom and accept no compromises on that point.

No compromise, no accountability, and no mercy? That could work.

It would be even better if the unrealistic expectations were played up for such a character: the idea of a nice town house (meaning clothes, furniture, warmth, food, discretionary income) of a comfortable sedantry existence would clash nicely with realities of what most normal people deal with. Most mages already live about as well as minor nobles, rather than peasonts or less established merchants. Couple with that what 'total freedom' would mean in practice in a mostly feudal setting: taxes, nobility, and military drafting, oh my! Would such a mage be subject to the Right of Conscription?

Mages can be drafted, there is no law protecting them from that, and a comfortable prison is still a prison. The fact remains that mages are denied extremely basic freedoms that everyone else in Thedas takes for granted.

Mages have more protecion from a possibe draft by virtue of most not wanting to ****** off the Chantry also as an Elf in Ferelden I'd rather be in the Circle with a warm bed,food  and 24/7guard by "armored thugs" then in the slums or in the forests.

[Plaintiff]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I'd like it to be someone who wants a few simple things in life: a nice town house, a workshop in which they can sell their magical wares, a family with children who will never be taken away from them, and an expectation of having to have committed a crime before they're punished. And anyone who objects to them having these things will die a fiery death.

I'd also want them to be very disdainful of anyone who's prepared to stop fighting in exchange for later bedtimes and a promise that no Templar will enter a mage's room without express invitation. To always push for complete and total freedom and accept no compromises on that point.

No compromise, no accountability, and no mercy? That could work.

It would be even better if the unrealistic expectations were played up for such a character: the idea of a nice town house (meaning clothes, furniture, warmth, food, discretionary income) of a comfortable sedantry existence would clash nicely with realities of what most normal people deal with. Most mages already live about as well as minor nobles, rather than peasonts or less established merchants. Couple with that what 'total freedom' would mean in practice in a mostly feudal setting: taxes, nobility, and military drafting, oh my! Would such a mage be subject to the Right of Conscription?

Mages can be drafted, there is no law protecting them from that, and a comfortable prison is still a prison. The fact remains that mages are denied extremely basic freedoms that everyone else in Thedas takes for granted.

Mages have more protecion from a possibe draft by virtue of most not wanting to ****** off the Chantry also as an Elf in Ferelden I'd rather be in the Circle with a warm bed,food  and 24/7guard by "armored thugs" then in the slums or in the forests.

No, you misunderstand. The Circle is the one with the power to draft mages. Or it was until recently.

What you'd rather be is irrelevent. Claiming that mages should just "deal with" the serious injsutices they suffer because they get "warm beds and an education" is a vile and ignorant thing to say. Inequality is inequality and the fact that it exists elsewhere is not an excuse for ignoring it here.

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
What you'd rather be is irrelevent. Claiming that mages should just "deal with" the serious injsutices they suffer because they get "warm beds and an education" is a vile and ignorant thing to say. Inequality is inequality and the fact that it exists elsewhere is not an excuse for ignoring it here.

A feudal society is an unequal society. And the Ferelden Circle is, all things considered, a great place to live. There aren't even as serious restrictions on travelling for mages, since Fin in Witch Hunt for example had permission to leave for ages and just didn't want to go.

Kirkwall is an abomination, and the treatment of mages there is inexscusable. But at least in Ferelden, mages had a sweet deal.