353 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

King Cousland wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

it should be a mage version of thorin.. maybe anders, if hes not dead that is... "im not proving a point, im changing a world"

Anders would be a ghastly leader. Volatile, short-tempered, arrogant and unwilling to negotiate. 

There's a difference between a leader and a face.

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I'd like it to be someone who wants a few simple things in life: a nice town house, a workshop in which they can sell their magical wares, a family with children who will never be taken away from them, and an expectation of having to have committed a crime before they're punished. And anyone who objects to them having these things will die a fiery death.

I'd also want them to be very disdainful of anyone who's prepared to stop fighting in exchange for later bedtimes and a promise that no Templar will enter a mage's room without express invitation. To always push for complete and total freedom and accept no compromises on that point.

No compromise, no accountability, and no mercy? That could work.

It would be even better if the unrealistic expectations were played up for such a character: the idea of a nice town house (meaning clothes, furniture, warmth, food, discretionary income) of a comfortable sedantry existence would clash nicely with realities of what most normal people deal with. Most mages already live about as well as minor nobles, rather than peasonts or less established merchants. Couple with that what 'total freedom' would mean in practice in a mostly feudal setting: taxes, nobility, and military drafting, oh my! Would such a mage be subject to the Right of Conscription?

Mages can be drafted, there is no law protecting them from that, and a comfortable prison is still a prison. The fact remains that mages are denied extremely basic freedoms that everyone else in Thedas takes for granted.

Mages have more protecion from a possibe draft by virtue of most not wanting to ****** off the Chantry also as an Elf in Ferelden I'd rather be in the Circle with a warm bed,food  and 24/7guard by "armored thugs" then in the slums or in the forests.

No, you misunderstand. The Circle is the one with the power to draft mages. Or it was until recently.

What you'd rather be is irrelevent. Claiming that mages should just "deal with" the serious injsutices they suffer because they get "warm beds and an education" is a vile and ignorant thing to say. Inequality is inequality and the fact that it exists elsewhere is not an excuse for ignoring it here.

What injustices exactly*please note I am talking about the Ferelden Circle*? and it isn't as vile and ignorant when you consider they're better off then 2-3rds of the population. And are you seriously suggesting that the mages' suffering takes priority over the commoners' or elves' why should it?

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
What you'd rather be is irrelevent. Claiming that mages should just "deal with" the serious injsutices they suffer because they get "warm beds and an education" is a vile and ignorant thing to say. Inequality is inequality and the fact that it exists elsewhere is not an excuse for ignoring it here.

A feudal society is an unequal society. And the Ferelden Circle is, all things considered, a great place to live. There aren't even as serious restrictions on travelling for mages, since Fin in Witch Hunt for example had permission to leave for ages and just didn't want to go.

Kirkwall is an abomination, and the treatment of mages there is inexscusable. But at least in Ferelden, mages had a sweet deal.

Except they didn't. As we see in game, quite a few hated it enough to make multiple escpae attempts, or side with Uldred's violent rebellion. And we know from Wynne's personal quest that Templar brutality is not exclusive to Kirkwall.

The quality of the Circle is irreelevent. Nobody should be forced to live somewhere they don't want to, or in a way that they don't like.

[Plaintiff]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
]What injustices exactly*please note I am talking about the Ferelden Circle*? and it isn't as vile and ignorant when you consider they're better off then 2-3rds of the population. And are you seriously suggesting that the mages' suffering takes priority over the commoners' or elves' why should it?

All the injustices that are inherent to the Circle system as a whole; from being snatched away from their families as children all the way up to the Harrowing. The Circle is a rotten, unust system generally. For people living in Kirkwall, Meredith was just the ****ty icing on a four-tier cake of crap that existed long before she got there.

[Althix]

Plaintiff have a point. Tranquil them all. We will not suffer another Tevinter.

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
What you'd rather be is irrelevent. Claiming that mages should just "deal with" the serious injsutices they suffer because they get "warm beds and an education" is a vile and ignorant thing to say. Inequality is inequality and the fact that it exists elsewhere is not an excuse for ignoring it here.

A feudal society is an unequal society. And the Ferelden Circle is, all things considered, a great place to live. There aren't even as serious restrictions on travelling for mages, since Fin in Witch Hunt for example had permission to leave for ages and just didn't want to go.

Kirkwall is an abomination, and the treatment of mages there is inexscusable. But at least in Ferelden, mages had a sweet deal.

Except they didn't. As we see in game, quite a few hated it enough to make multiple escpae attempts, or side with Uldred's violent rebellion. And we know from Wynne's personal quest that Templar brutality is not exclusive to Kirkwall.

The quality of the Circle is irreelevent. Nobody should be forced to live somewhere they don't want to, or in a way that they don't like.

the elves,dwarves and most commoners are.

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
What you'd rather be is irrelevent. Claiming that mages should just "deal with" the serious injsutices they suffer because they get "warm beds and an education" is a vile and ignorant thing to say. Inequality is inequality and the fact that it exists elsewhere is not an excuse for ignoring it here.

A feudal society is an unequal society. And the Ferelden Circle is, all things considered, a great place to live. There aren't even as serious restrictions on travelling for mages, since Fin in Witch Hunt for example had permission to leave for ages and just didn't want to go.

Kirkwall is an abomination, and the treatment of mages there is inexscusable. But at least in Ferelden, mages had a sweet deal.

Except they didn't. As we see in game, quite a few hated it enough to make multiple escpae attempts, or side with Uldred's violent rebellion. And we know from Wynne's personal quest that Templar brutality is not exclusive to Kirkwall.

The quality of the Circle is irreelevent. Nobody should be forced to live somewhere they don't want to, or in a way that they don't like.

What about those mages who actually seem to like being the the Circles, such as Wynne, Finn, even Bethany?  Should they be forced to leave if they want to stay?

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
Except they didn't. As we see in game, quite a few hated it enough to make multiple escpae attempts, or side with Uldred's violent rebellion. And we know from Wynne's personal quest that Templar brutality is not exclusive to Kirkwall.

That's not proof that the conditions aren't objectively sweet - it's just proof that people don't like being leashed. The templars were dicks, but ignoring how bad they were at their jobs, there are other threats that non-mages outside the Circle have to deal with that are just as bad: like bandit raids.

The quality of the Circle is irreelevent. Nobody should be forced to live somewhere they don't want to, or in a way that they don't like.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the moral point (not here, anyway). I'm disagreeing with you on the claim that the Circles are a worse place to live, objectively, than other parts of Thedas. That's true for some Circles (i.e., Kirkwall), where things seem to look like what being a slave in Tevinter must be, but at least in Ferelden mages have a quality equal to if not greater than the nobles.

[Daerog]

Plaintiff wrote...

The quality of the Circle is irreelevent. Nobody should be forced to live somewhere they don't want to, or in a way that they don't like.

Well, while peasants don't have much choice or options either, at least their odds for a successful change are better if they choose to do something or go somewhere else, I think.

Although, they should still be forced to go into schooling in a safe, magically protected, location. After harrowing, should be given more freedom of movement, although it seems some mages are given freedom of movement if they are not troublemakers, loyal, and prove to not be a danger.

Anyway, back on topic...

If mages want a face, how about some adorable elf mage child? Like Avexis or whoever. Get sympathy from other mages on the fence and elves.

I don't know, doesn't really matter for me, as I'm all for fighting both sides.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:19 .

[In Exile]

krul2k wrote...

i thought dwarfs lived in orzammar because they wanted to, an well commoners are err well common just like me, i hate living where i do but cannae afford nout else lol guess it the same for them.

The castes don't have any choice on what to do with their lives. Neither, really, do the qunari.

Modifié par In Exile, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:20 .

[Daerog]

In Exile wrote...

krul2k wrote...

i thought dwarfs lived in orzammar because they wanted to, an well commoners are err well common just like me, i hate living where i do but cannae afford nout else lol guess it the same for them.

The castes don't have any choice on what to do with their lives. Neither, really, do the qunari.

No there is alway, always choice.

Dwarves can flee to surface or deep roads. Probably die, starve, or have to slave away with debt to the Cartel or to humans. Losing all they have, and probably not have much remaining of their faith/culture on the surface.

qunari can... choose to die, I guess. Yay, Qun, always giving choice, obey or die, see, choice. 

Tal Vashoth can just rebel in a doomed, unorganized fashion.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:25 .

[Shadow Fox]

krul2k wrote...

the dwarves are forced to live somewhere they dont want?? same with commoners??

i thought dwarfs lived in orzammar because they wanted to, an well commoners are err well common just like me, i hate living where i do but cannae afford nout else lol guess it the same for them.

elfs bah just kill em all.

If you cant see the injustices in the circles now then your blind its simple, it may have started out as a good idea but it has become inherently bad hence the state thedas is in, hell even alot of templars know its a injustice

There is injustice everywhere that doesn't change the fact that as long as the Templars do they're jobs,aren't utterly incompetent,morally bankrupt and don't overstep they're bounds*cough*Kirkwall*cough* the mages have it way better then most of Thedas.

[lil yonce]

A face? I'd say Fiona, Adrian, or Anders.

But I wonder about the mages and apprentices who had no voice in voting for this rebellion. The mage who wanted to research healing magics peacefully in the Circle and never studied combat magic, or the apprentice who struggles to light a candle without a match, and now they're on the run fighting trained soldiers in the Templars? What's going to happen to them in this war?

And mages and apprentices, Non-Enchanters, the Average Joe of the Circle, likely make up the majority of those who have been drawn into this war. Did the Enchanters think about them when they made the decision to separate for everybody?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:32 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Wow so every Dwarf in Thedas that left their underground kingdoms starved or became indebt to humans? Well gee we better go tell the dwarves that have thriving buisnesses, families, ect. around Thedas that their lot in life is horrible because they aren't underground.

[Daerog]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Honestly, Anders is a good one.

Just look at the guy. He's not a "bad" person by most accounts. He spends his time healing people for no cost. When Hawke talks to him and gets to know him, he's clearly tortured about the mage situation, but he always tried to rebel in very...surreptitious ways. The only thing that opposes this is the very end, and even then, you can see he's truly torn, and he truly truly believes this is the right thing to do. He's not doing this because he's evil with a lust for power. He even eschews blood magic.

Well, Anders would have been a great option. He helped against the Mother, a hero to Fereldan and the poor in Kirkwall, a lover of animals and seems like a friendly guy.

Then there is the issue of him blowing up a chantry, killing innocents and such, that just destroys his reputation with most of Thedas outside the Circles and Tevinter. That one event makes him not a good face. Maybe if the knowledge of it being him was covered up, but it seems to be common knowledge that Anders murdered a Grand Cleric and who knows how many other people.

Maybe they could play it as a mage pushed to his limit, but that would be a stretch imo since it is a mage that is not in a Circle. If he was a circle mage and blew up a chantry, then they could play it like he was traumatized by the how the circle is and such, but he's not, so oh well.

[Shadow Fox]

Youth4Ever wrote...

A face? I'd say Fiona, Adrian, or Anders. But I wonder about the mages and apprentices who had no voice in voting for this rebellion. The mage who wanted to research healing magics peacefully in the Circle and never studied combat magic, or the apprentice who struggles to light a candle without a match, and now they're on the run fighting trained soldiers in the Templars? What's going to happen to them in this war? And mages and apprentices, Non-Enchanters, the Average Joe of the Circle, likely make up the majority of those who have been drawn into this war. Did the Enchanters think about them when they made the decision to separate for everybody?

I'd imagine not every mage wants to rip the world open Hell ex-circle mage will probably be an origin for the Hero if he/she's a mage.

[In Exile]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Honestly, Anders is a good one.

Just look at the guy. He's not a "bad" person by most accounts. He spends his time healing people for no cost. When Hawke talks to him and gets to know him, he's clearly tortured about the mage situation, but he always tried to rebel in very...surreptitious ways. The only thing that opposes this is the very end, and even then, you can see he's truly torn, and he truly truly believes this is the right thing to do. He's not doing this because he's evil with a lust for power. He even eschews blood magic.

And I didn't know you visited this side, Dean.

Anders is a zealot by the time he firebombs the Chantry, and is clearly happy to have every single mage in Kirkwall die if it leads to the war he so desires. He looks like he'd be an absolute disaster as a leader.

The fact that he thinks what he did is the right thing to do is what should disqualify him as leader, unless mages are looking forward to a genocide.

[SeptimusMagistos]

The problem with arguing that the tower is a comfortable place is that most mages could expect comfort in their lives no matter where they lived. They have a rare, valuable skill that would virtually guarantee them a steady income.

[Shadow Fox]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Wow so every Dwarf in Thedas that left their underground kingdoms starved or became indebt to humans? Well gee we better go tell the dwarves that have thriving buisnesses, families, ect. around Thedas that their lot in life is horrible because they aren't underground.

That's only the lucky ones who didn't die in the Deep Roads or were born on the surface hell very few Dwarves seem to actually leave of they're own choice.

[Daerog]

Youth4Ever wrote...

A face? I'd say Fiona, Adrian, or Anders.

But I wonder about the mages and apprentices who had no voice in voting for this rebellion. The mage who wanted to research healing magics peacefully in the Circle and never studied combat magic, or the apprentice who struggles to light a candle without a match, and now they're on the run fighting trained soldiers in the Templars? What's going to happen to them in this war?

And mages and apprentices, Non-Enchanters, the Average Joe of the Circle, likely make up the majority of those who have been drawn into this war. Did the Enchanters think about them when they made the decision to separate for everybody?

Not to mention all the mage children.

I would recommend those not fighting (or wishing to fight) to flee to the Chantry and request Divine Justinia V for protection... or if there is a sympathetic monarch, like King Alistair (if he is king in your canon), then to that nation. Avoid Tevinter, nothing like vulnerable refugees to make into slaves.

maybe the Collective knows good safe houses for them.

Geez, maybe the mage kid isn't a good idea for a face now that I think of it. Go with Rhys or some good, well known mage who is still around or killed. Maybe mage hawke or mage warden.

[Shadow Fox]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

The problem with arguing that the tower is a comfortable place is that most mages could expect comfort in their lives no matter where they lived. They have a rare, valuable skill that would virtually guarantee them a steady income.

No then they'd be like everyone else with all the limitations that come with said freedom or it'd be Tevinter 2.0.

[Estelindis]

Zardoc wrote...

You had a more than a whole year to buy and read it. Seems like your own fault, really.

No, because it's polite to label spoilers.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

The problem with arguing that the tower is a comfortable place is that most mages could expect comfort in their lives no matter where they lived. They have a rare, valuable skill that would virtually guarantee them a steady income.

No then they'd be like everyone else with all the limitations that come with said freedom or it'd be Tevinter 2.0.

They would be just like everyone else...with the caveat of having an immensely valuable inborn talent.