353 réponses à ce sujet

[ChaosMorning]

I'm going to guess that Fiona will be the leader of the rebellion.

[Urzon]

Maria Caliban wrote...

There's a difference between a leader and a face.

^^This^^

For the leadership position, I really don't have any strong opinion of anyone.

For the face of the rebellion though, I would have to say Rhys and Evangeline. Evangeline more importantly though. It is one thing to have a charismatic mage's face to the rebellion, but it would sway more people's opinion if they saw a templar there as well. Rhys and Evangeline would show people that peaceful coexistence is possible.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm guessing Anders head on a pike in Kirkwall doesn't really count as a face?

I keed, I keed...

[nightcobra]

when both opposing sides have charismatic and likable leaders but with fundamentally different points of view that causes them to conflict it paves the way for a more interesting story than when both leaders are for a lack of a better word, unsympathetic gits.

[The Elder King]

Urzon wrote...

[
^^This^^

For the leadership position, I really don't have any strong opinion of anyone.

For the face of the rebellion though, I would have to say Rhys and Evangeline. Evangeline more importantly though. It is one thing to have a charismatic mage's face to the rebellion, but it would sway more people's opinion if they saw a templar there as well. Rhys and Evangeline would show people that peaceful coexistence is possible.

I agree, Rhys and Evangeline, as the "faces" of the mages, are a good choice.
About the mage leader, while I think there'll be one highest-ranking mage, I think that there'll be various mage leaders, as it was in the Circle system. Mages were always been rapresented by various leaders (the First Enchanters, the heads of the Fraternities, the Grand Enchanter), I don't think this will change.
Regardless who will be the leader, Fiona, Rhys and (unfortunately) Adrian will be among the leaders of the mage. If they didn't die during the time between Asunder and Inquisition.

[MisterJB]

Urzon wrote...
Rhys and Evangeline would show people that peaceful coexistence is possible.

The peaceful coexistence between Evangeline and the mages is far too similar to the "peaceful coexistece" that exists between the templars and mages in Tevinter.
She is not only ineffective but has actually betrayed her own people in favor of the mages.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

Urzon wrote...
Rhys and Evangeline would show people that peaceful coexistence is possible.

The peaceful coexistence between Evangeline and the mages is far too similar to the "peaceful coexistece" that exists between the templars and mages in Tevinter.
She is not only ineffective but has actually betrayed her own people in favor of the mages.

Do you mean the templars, or non-mages in general? About the former, I don't think she'll be the only one (I wouldn't be surprised if a small part of templars would join the mages, as I wouldn't be surprised if a small part of mages would join the Chantry). Not everyone within the same organization have the same opinion, and people change.
About the latter, non-mages and mages aren't different species.

Modifié par hhh89, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:24 .

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
Do you mean the templars, or non-mages in general? About the former, I don't think she'll be the only one (I wouldn't be surprised if a small part of templars would join the mages, as I wouldn't be surprised if a small part of mages would join the Chantry). Not everyone within the same organization have the same opinion, and people change.
About the latter, non-mages and mages aren't different species.

Mundanes in general.
Certainly, they belong to the same species but that is not the only characteristic people take into consideration when forming groups. There is a clear line that divides mages and mundanes that is as real as the one that divides fereldans and orlesians. Only the former is based in magical ability while the latter is based on nationality.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:29 .

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...


Mundanes in general.
Certainly, they belong to the same species but that is not the only characteristic people take into consideration when forming groups. There is a clear line that divides mages and mundanes that is as real as the one that divides fereldans and orlesians. Only the former is based in magical ability while the latter is based on nationality.

I don't completely agree with you. While different, I generally consider both of them my people, and this is reflected in my canon. That's one of the reasons why I haven't picked a side yet. Every side (As far as now, we don't know yet if how the factions will act and their goals will be in Inquisition) had a primary focus on mages or non-mages. I want to achieve a solution that would satisfy both sides (though I know that both mages and non-mages, in this case, have to make some sacrifice). Though I doubt that a solution of this kind is going to be possible.
There are plently of non-mage that will side with the mages. They're not betraying their own people. They're helping a part of their own people achieving a better position, in their opinion.

Modifié par hhh89, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:06 .

[The Elder King]

EntropicAngel wrote...


Happy? I don't agree. A zealot? Eh...I'm not so sure. Just look at how torn he is after the Chantry explodes. I don't agree with his action, and I've alwayse been a bit of a supporter for the Chantry, but you can see from the way he's talking that this wasn't some spiteful revenge.

To be honest if we could split him from Justice/Vengeance, I think it would work, because most of the time he's fairly normal in his rebellion. But that's kind of another topic.

I don't think it's possible to split him from Justice (not that he necessarily wants. In the friendship path is fine with that insane spirit inside his head). Though I agree with you that his ruthlesness was a consequence of Vengeance in his head (but I believe that in the friendship line his speech with Hawke clearly shown that he was a bit "influenced" by Vengeance).

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
I don't completely agree with you. While different, I generally consider both of them my people, and this is reflected in my canon.

Well, I must disagree. The difference in magical ability draw a very objective and real line over the two populations. This is not a cosmetic difference.
The way society has worked in Thedas; that is, Mages rule the North, Mundanes rule the South; has also helped create a rift between the two groups. Since I, MisterJB, have no magical abilties, I sympathize with the mundanes of Thedas and consider them to be my people. Which is not to say I can't sympathize with the mages, but I know where my loyalty lies.

There are plently of non-mage, in the past games, and almost surely in the next game, that have sided and will side with the mages.

Without the influence of the PC? Such as?

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:50 .

[BBK4114]

Zardoc wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

It's polite to label spoilers. I was waiting until after Christmas to buy the book in case anyone was going to give it to me. I have now been spoiled. I am unhappy about this.

You had a more than a whole year to buy and read it. Seems like your own fault, really.

What a really thoughtful position you have there. I'm so glad you decided to condemn the victim of the spoil rather than the perpetrator of the spoil. Just like real life!  


You know...some people may be new to the games - perhaps just got them and played them back-to-back.  Fell in love with the series and told friends about the books and were wishing to get them as gifts. And has now had one part of the books ruined for them,  thanks to another boorish person, much like yourself. <_<

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...


Well, I must disagree. The difference in magical ability draw a very objective and real line over the two populations. This is not a cosmetic difference.
The way society has worked in Thedas; that is, Mages rule the North, Mundanes rule the South; has also helped create a rift between the two groups. Since I, MisterJB, have no magical abilties, I sympathize with the mundanes of Thedas and consider them to be my people. Which is not to say I can't sympathize with the mages, but I know where my loyalty lies.

I can understand you position (though I never said that I want ruling mages. It's one of the things I'm more uncertain about, and at the moment I tend to be against it). And from reading your posts in the past, since I think you're moderate between the pro-chantry or pro-templar group. For example, while I don't like much the Harrowing, I think that your idea of adopting what Malcolm Hawke did for Bethany and Hawke was a good idea.
But I think about both groups's safety and future. Which would probably mean I'll be disappointed with the solutions that will be present in Inquisition, but I'm fully expecting this.

There are plently of non-mage, in the past games, and almost surely in the next game, that have sided and will side with the mages.

Without the influence of the PC? Such as?

Sorry, I meant to edit my post (since I recognized that there weren't much people in the past games that sided with the mage, one of them could be ser Thrask) but I forgot  to do it when I responded to another post. I meant that there'll be people who will side with the mages. And I think that a part of them could be former templars.

Modifié par hhh89, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:08 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

Urzon wrote...
Rhys and Evangeline would show people that peaceful coexistence is possible.

The peaceful coexistence between Evangeline and the mages is far too similar to the "peaceful coexistece" that exists between the templars and mages in Tevinter.
She is not only ineffective but has actually betrayed her own people in favor of the mages.

Evangeline saw that the Templars were being spiteful jerks and so did her best to stop it. I seriously doubt she'd act any different if she saw a mage acting the same way.

Instead of judging people based on whether or not they have magic, she goes after the actual bad guys in each situation.

[leeboi2]

Rhys, probably...

[Reikilea]

MisterJB wrote...


Without the influence of the PC? Such as?

Grey wardens, Dalish, basically every neutral character as Varric, Isabella or Zevran. And Kirkwall is full of mage supporters. Even Cullen realised and was kind of planning to hunt them down...

Grey Warden see the bigger picture, they understand that magic can help.

Dalish suffered the same treatment and resentment as mages and its important to not forget they´ve been threatened by the chantry for many centuries - as chantry was constantly taking their leaders and locking them in circles. They always viewed magic as gift and werent afraid of it. Becasue the knew how to work with it - and not by creating an isolation and the Chatry did. Seriously what about their position in Thedas.

And dwarves. Guess where the lyrium comes from. Lyrium that chantry uses to bind their templars. What will happen if they decide to stand with mages...Kind of easy victory if you ask me.

And more over this conflic is too human focused. And that feel
very stupid in my opinion. We shouldnt forget about other races. That or Bioware is trying to create a very fundamentalist type of a setting. Which is why this forced war is not working.

[The Elder King]

Reikilea wrote...



Grey wardens, Dalish, basically every neutral character as Varric, Isabella or Zevran. And Kirkwall is full of mage supporters. Even Cullen realised and was kind of planning to hunt them down...

Grey Warden see the bigger picture, they understand that magic can help.

Dalish suffered the same treatment and resentment as mages and its important to not forget they´ve been threatened by the chantry for many centuries - as chantry was constantly taking their leaders and locking them in circles. They always viewed magic as gift and werent afraid of it. Becasue the knew how to work with it - and not by creating an isolation and the Chatry did. Seriously what about their position in Thedas.

And dwarves. Guess where the lyrium comes from. Lyrium that chantry uses to bind their templars. What will happen if they decide to stand with mages...Kind of easy victory if you ask me.

And more over this conflic is too human focused. And that feel
very stupid in my opinion. We shouldnt forget about other races. That or Bioware is trying to create a very fundamentalist type of a setting. Which is why this forced war is not working.

GW don't support or side with mages. They welcome mages in their ranks because they're greatly helpful, and wants to have more mages during the Blights. But as I know, there is no general policy in the GW that they side with the mages against the templars It depends of their opinion about magic.
Dalish consider magic different from humans, but I doubt they sided in the past with mages easily. Mages were the ones that destroyed their first home. Elves suffered from both the mages and non-mages human's hands. And they're continuing to suffering from mage's hands in the North. As far as we know, they might worry about the mages forming a second Imperium.
And in general dalish don't have a nice opinion about humans, regardless they're mages or not. While I think an alliance between mages and dalish is possible,  but I'm not sure about that. All the three sides in the conflict aren't that liked by the dalish.
On the dwarves, I agree that they can have good relationship with the mages (as far as I now they still have relationship with the Imperium), though there's no way to know which side they'll support.
About the conflict being too human focused, what would you expect? We only saw the prelude (DA2 and Asunder) were we saw human cities. The conflict starts only during the last part of Asunder. Anyway, the other races might not partecipate. This is a strictly human conflict. The dalish might intervene, but the dwarves are isolationists. Even with Bhelen, they might not be interested in picking a side. Whoever wins, they could still trade with them.
But don't worry, I'm sure that the qunari are really interested in this conflict. Expecially because it could weaken Thedas a lot.

Modifié par hhh89, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:30 .

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Evangeline saw that the Templars were being spiteful jerks and so did her best to stop it. I seriously doubt she'd act any different if she saw a mage acting the same way.

Instead of judging people based on whether or not they have magic, she goes after the actual bad guys in each situation.

I do not agree with some of Lambert's actions; even tough I agree with his stance; but there is a HUGE difference between sympathizing with mages and releasing thousands of ridiculously dangerous people into the world thus starting the greatest mundanes vs mages conflict since the days Andraste walked Thedas.
She seems to have forgotten that the templars also exist to protect mundanes.

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

I do not agree with some of Lambert's actions; even tough I agree with his stance; but there is a HUGE difference between sympathizing with mages and releasing thousands of ridiculously dangerous people into the world thus starting the greatest mundanes vs mages conflict since the days Andraste walked Thedas.

When the Lord Seeker begins disobeying the express orders of the Divine to the detriment of the people in the Chantry's care, that seems like the perfect time to oppose them.

MisterJB wrote...

She seems to have forgotten that the templars also exist to protect mundanes.

...and mages. Something far too many Templars forget.

Remember: if an angry mob tries to attack an innocent mage, it is the Templar's duty to protect the mage from the mob, not the other way around.

[BBK4114]

 Has anyone read Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series? They have psionic powers that function much like magical abilities, and they police themselves. They require anyone with psi go to a tower for training and serve the community for a period of time. The mantra is, "A wild telepath is a danger to himself and to others." After tower training they are free to continue on with their lives in whatever manner they wish. 

True, there are some bad guys out there that try to dominate/mind control others but they are usually weeded out by the others with power. 

I would envision Thedas mages to be like this if they were to police themselves. Some mages would want to dominate "mundanes" but most would not and if they were to weed these people out it wouldn't be long before common folks understood that not all mages are dangerous. I don't think circle towers as permanent prisons will work going forward because as Sandal says all the magic is coming back. I think there will soon be more mages than the circle system can handle. 


I think Karl or someone like him would be a good face for the mages. Someone who was made tranquil after their harrowing and who was NOT possessed. There was at least one person in Kirkwall who told of her sweet, harmless sister who was made tranquil.  She ran the group that aided apostates. There are probably many more stories like this.

Modifié par BBK4114, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:57 .

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
When the Lord Seeker begins disobeying the express orders of the Divine to the detriment of the people in the Chantry's care, that seems like the perfect time to oppose them.

Lambert was actually right through the whole thing. There was a demon in the tower (Cole) and the Libertarians(Adrian) were planning a revolution.While I don't believe barging in the conclave was the most appropriate course of action, his stance is not that unresonable. Chances are Adrian was involved in the attempt on the Divine's life.

And even if I wanted someone sane in Meredith's place in DA2, I wasn't about to release every single mage in the Circle on the streets. Again, there is a huge difference.

...and mages. Something far too many Templars forget.

Remember: if an angry mob tries to attack an innocent mage, it is the Templar's duty to protect the mage from the mob, not the other way around.

That is correct.
But there was no angry mob attacking innocent mages in Asunder. Evangeline allowed her sympathy for the mages to cloud her judgment to the point where she would threaten the safety of every single mundane in Thedas by splitting the  Circle from the Chantry.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:04 .

[Reikilea]

hhh89 wrote...

Reikilea wrote...



Grey wardens, Dalish, basically every neutral character as Varric, Isabella or Zevran. And Kirkwall is full of mage supporters. Even Cullen realised and was kind of planning to hunt them down...

Grey Warden see the bigger picture, they understand that magic can help.

Dalish suffered the same treatment and resentment as mages and its important to not forget they´ve been threatened by the chantry for many centuries - as chantry was constantly taking their leaders and locking them in circles. They always viewed magic as gift and werent afraid of it. Becasue the knew how to work with it - and not by creating an isolation and the Chatry did. Seriously what about their position in Thedas.

And dwarves. Guess where the lyrium comes from. Lyrium that chantry uses to bind their templars. What will happen if they decide to stand with mages...Kind of easy victory if you ask me.

And more over this conflic is too human focused. And that feel
very stupid in my opinion. We shouldnt forget about other races. That or Bioware is trying to create a very fundamentalist type of a setting. Which is why this forced war is not working.

GW don't support or side with mages. They welcome mages in their ranks because they're greatly helpful, and wants to have more mages during the Blights. But as I know, there is no general policy in the GW that they side with the mages against the templars It depends of their opinion about magic.
Dalish consider magic different from humans, but I doubt they sided in the past with mages easily. Mages were the ones that destroyed their first home. Elves suffered from both the mages and non-mages human's hands. And they're continuing to suffering from mage's hands in the North. As far as we know, they might worry about the mages forming a second Imperium.
And in general dalish don't have a nice opinion about humans, regardless they're mages or not. While I think an alliance between mages and dalish is possible,  but I'm not sure about that. All the three sides in the conflict aren't that liked by the dalish.
On the dwarves, I agree that they can have good relationship with the mages (as far as I now they still have relationship with the Imperium), though there's no way to know which side they'll support.
About the conflict being too human focused, what would you expect? We only saw the prelude (DA2 and Asunder) were we saw human cities. The conflict starts only during the last part of Asunder. Anyway, the other races might not partecipate. This is a strictly human conflict. The dalish might intervene, but the dwarves are isolationists. Even with Bhelen, they might not be interested in picking a side. Whoever wins, they could still trade with them.
But don't worry, I'm sure that the qunari are really interested in this conflict. Expecially because it could weaken Thedas a lot.

I cant quite agree. Thsi is a conflict that will concern whole Thedas. If there is a war Dalish, Dwarves and even Quanari wil be involved.

Thedas is under one god rule. Obey the Chantry or be punished for not obeying. Dalish and Mages are the ones that are punished. Thats why som many elves joined Arishok when he decided to take over the Kirkwall. Even elves want this change because they know somethig in this system is not working. Quanari realised it. They can use it.

While I agree that Grey Warden are the only one that can be considered truly neutral and will stand aside. As they have greater worries. But even they are connected with whole Black city and blight. If something big is going to happen at one point the will have to be part of it. Judging by what Inquisition was about before, I fear worst.

Same for dwarves. They are left alone, Chantry doesnt meddle that much mostly because the are imune to magic and dont really have mages. This also makes them possible allies. At one point they may be asked to side with someone. As they did during the fifth blight. And yet they may refuse, but this lyrium thing will have an impact. Or it should have. I always choose Bhelen so...

Its hard to stay neutral if there is a war going on. Even out history proved so. Big nations/fractions wont be able to ignore it. Because Tevinters, Dalish, Dwarves, Wardens or Quanari are part of it and it will affect them. 

And here is the reason why I think Bioware did a very bad thing by starting this petty mages vs templars war. Thats why this religious god war worked in Skyrim (possibly in Oblivion) but may not be working in DA:I. Because there is too many plotholes and too many misunderstanding of the situations and the whole conflict feel forced.  And thats why I think (I really really hope) Bioware is planning something else, not only this war. Some other threat.

Well in the end it may all be quanari plot after all.

However if this all turns out to be evil Tevinter plan I will throw all my DA games away and stomp on them, never playing Bioware games again. And here iI was fine with ME3 ending...

Modifié par Reikilea, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:15 .

[MisterJB]

BBK4114 wrote...
I would envision Thedas mages to be like this if they were to police themselves. Some mages would want to dominate "mundanes" but most would not and if they were to weed these people out it wouldn't be long before common folks understood that not all mages are dangerous.

That is naive. Ask the elves of Ferelden and Kirkwall how well humans policing humans has worked out for them.
If mages were allowed to allowed to police themselves, the first two generations might do a good job of it because they will fear mundane retaliation.
But, suddenly, it's five generations later and mages are more than content with ignoring crimes commited by other mages.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:19 .

[Xilizhra]

Sir JK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Being completely reasonable is nice in some circumstances, but may not be suitable for a wartime leader. Someone centered and balanced, but utterly committed would be best, I believe.

Would be best yes, it is also the kind if leader that would have difficulty making themselves heard in times of trouble.

The leader the mages is going to get is the most ruthless, politically backstabbing, vociferous and charismatic firebrand that can be found. The one that burns brightly for the fight and outshines the rest. Mostly because such people thrive in the circumstances that now happen. It's likely not going to be a Mandela, but a Marat or a Robespierre. Maker help any mage that disagrees.

It is going to be a few long hard years

Someone like Mandela can still be ruthless when necessary. I'd vastly prefer that to Robespierre, anyway.

But there was no angry mob attacking innocent mages in Asunder.
Evangeline allowed her sympathy for the mages to cloud her judgment to
the point where she would threaten the safety of every single mundane in
Thedas by splitting the  Circle from the Chantry.

If anyone threatens the mundanes, it'll be the templars; they definitely haven't been taking advantage of the supposed preference mundanes have for them, otherwise they would have won the war already. Or, more likely, they're doing things to turn the populace against them.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:20 .