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[ISpeakTheTruth]

His problem was with the Templars, he should have attacked the Templars rather then a church that had little to no effect on the Templar's ability abuse and kill mages. If the Union of America wanted to make the African Americans free, that's a noble goal. However if the way that start that is to destroy a southern church or burn down civilian homes then that's unacceptable and that person should be punished.

Happily welcoming a murderer of innocent people does nothing but make your group look like terrorists.

[lil yonce]

Sir JK wrote...

Lobsel and Xilizhra:
It's not the Chantry/Templars that should fear a ruthless leader, it's the moderate mages. When ruthless leaders and radicals together in times of war cry out for blood, it is the moderates that either have to file into the ranks or rally together against their kin.

It is the mages that fight only for freedom and justice that have to watch their backs for the ambitious ones that seek influence, prestige and fame and are not afraid of a few dead bodies. Not because their goals are different, but that such individuals seldom take a no for an answer. When the ones struggling for justice say that they've gone too far... that's when they're in real danger.

The non-mages will fear any mage leader, no matter their vices and virtues. It is the kind of people that thrives in conflict that the mages will have to fear... from their own side.

It is, unfortunantely, also excellent war-time leadership material.

After all... the people that excel in times of war... are the ones that learned to kill.

That's whom I suspect will emerge as a leader and/or face for the mages. Not only because it is far more likely that such a person would benefit out of a "realistic" perspective. But also, and perhaps more crucially, the good cause with a slightly sympathetic but callous and somewhat frightening leader is a an escellent story potential. Because it allows one to tell the story of crossed lines, of moral dilemmas and of the corruption of power.

In short... it's not the leader whom the mages wants or needs that ultimately will emerge... it's far more likely the one they will regret.

I agree one hundred percent. This is exactly why an Anders, Adrian, or Fionia type mage will become the Mage rebellion leader.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 08 janvier 2013 - 12:38 .

[KainD]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

His problem was with the Templars, he should have attacked the Templars rather then a church that had little to no effect on the Templar's ability abuse and kill mages. If the Union of America wanted to make the African Americans free, that's a noble goal. However if the way that start that is to destroy a southern church or burn down civilian homes then that's unacceptable and that person should be punished.

Happily welcoming a murderer of innocent people does nothing but make your group look like terrorists.

Templar order is a millitary order of the chantry, thus Anders blows the chantry. Logic - it's present. 
Anders did everything right. I only hate him for not being honest with me from the beginning, I would still help him. 

Modifié par KainD, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:13 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The Templars are the military so that's why you strike the military base which is not a church. The church may be in control but your first act of rebelion shouldn't be a place that's going to kill civilians.

You attack Templar HQ with the Knight Commander inside, that way you do massive damage to the overall number as well as cause confusion in the ranks by killing the commanding officer. You then use that time to get the Mages the heck out of Kirkwall. That is a sound and morally acceptable plan, not blowing up a church full of civilians.

[Rinshikai10]

From my understanding, the Templar HQ is in the Gallows which would result in the death of Mages. Which I don't think Anders would want.

As for a Face for the Rebellion, Fiona hands down. From what I have seen she appears more reasonable then people give her credit for. Though that's just my view of her.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I agree. Creating an oppressive system would lead to riots from the non-mages, and the elves ended up getting screwed over. The mages should strive for something different, but I imagine the mage leaders would have different ideas about what that outcome should be.

Right. My point is that the leader(s) of the mages have to decide that. And ruthlessness might lead to a military victory, but dictating terms at the point of a knife without defeating your enemies utterly would be exactly the kind of thing that leads to more war. And that's assume that if the mages are succesful, the rest of Thedas wouldn't just treat them like Republica France and try to overthrow them just because of how much they're shaking up the status quo.

Speaking of the elves, I have wondered how the elves in the occupied Dales would respond to the Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War. Might the elves try to take advantage of the situation?

One could only hope. I think that this is something that depends on the Dalish themselves. They're as organized a society of free elves as there is - with their archers and their political leadership, they seem to be the kind that could rally the Dales. But that would mean war with Orlais, presumably.

Stil, if they ally with the mages, then suddenly you're creating the kind of political climate that could force terms on the other kingdoms.

I imagine the leadership might have to put down some riots, in certain situations. Possibly through force, or intimidation. I suppose it depends on how bad it gets in certain regions, and how pro-templar some societies might be. I think the mage leadership could need to help out the non-mages in certain ways (like how the Warden-Commander can have his army spread out to help protect the farmers) to earn the favor of the people.

Personally, I think the key is healing and farming. Think about it: if mages could design enchantments that heal injuries and generally spread health, that would be something. If it were possible to use creation magic not just to mend bones, but improve soils (or whatever school of magic), suddenly mages could win over farmsteads.

But this is exactly the kind of thinking that would lead away from a military solution to the question of independence and to a political one.

I'm pro-mage; what the Circles endured is horrible. But I just don't think ruthless war is the way to get the desired end, which is peace and freedom without tyranny.

[Ianamus]

Hopefully someone akin to Bethany/ Wynne. Someone who is not a blood mage, doesn't use blood magic and isn't possessed by a demon/spirit or completely insane. I have nothing against mages, but It was hard to support them when the only prominent sane, non-blood mage in Kirkwall was Bethany/ non-blood mage Hawke.

There was nothing wrong with having sympathetic characters who used blood magic, but we need a "face" for the rebellion who proves the templar's view that all mages resort to blood magic eventually wrong, not right. Dragon Age 2 focused too much on both the templar's and the mages bad points, and I hope the next game changes this by focusing on the good points of each side to make the decision of who to support difficult. 

Modifié par EJ107, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:48 .

[BlazingSpeed]

Reikilea wrote...

MisterJB wrote...


Without the influence of the PC? Such as?

Grey wardens, Dalish, basically every neutral character as Varric, Isabella or Zevran. And Kirkwall is full of mage supporters. Even Cullen realised and was kind of planning to hunt them down...

Grey Warden see the bigger picture, they understand that magic can help.

Dalish suffered the same treatment and resentment as mages and its important to not forget they´ve been threatened by the chantry for many centuries - as chantry was constantly taking their leaders and locking them in circles. They always viewed magic as gift and werent afraid of it. Becasue the knew how to work with it - and not by creating an isolation and the Chatry did. Seriously what about their position in Thedas.

And dwarves. Guess where the lyrium comes from. Lyrium that chantry uses to bind their templars. What will happen if they decide to stand with mages...Kind of easy victory if you ask me.

And more over this conflic is too human focused. And that feel
very stupid in my opinion. We shouldnt forget about other races. That or Bioware is trying to create a very fundamentalist type of a setting. Which is why this forced war is not working.

Agreed, sometimes less is not more...

[Cobra's_back]

Fiona Grand Enchanter of the Circle will probably be the leader of the rebellion or Rhys might fit better. Anders may not be alive. Asunder is a good book if you haven't read it yet.

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
He does. He claims that Decimus' group must have been really desperate to use blood magic thus claiming that it's the templar's fault for pursuing them. And does the very same thing later in the game when dealing with Avelina and Huon and many others.

I was just playing DA2, and in Act I, after Decimus, one of Ander's click-on-me-dialogues is (paraphrasing): "I hate mages who turn to demons; there is no better way to ensure that we will never be free."

Anders thinks a lot of things are justified, but not demonology or blood magic.

[In Exile]

KainD wrote...
Templar order is a millitary order of the chantry, thus Anders blows the chantry. Logic - it's present. 
Anders did everything right. I only hate him for not being honest with me from the beginning, I would still help him. 

No, the logic isn't present. And Anders's stated goal wasn't to strike at the Templars - it was to force Meredith into annulment and force the mages to fight back. He wanted to explode the powderkeg that was Kirkwall, not improve the lives of mages. He sais as much to Orsino when Orsino says that his actions condemend everyone to death.

This type of logic justifies attacking civilian targets, and that's NOT okay. FULL STOP. It's the very essence of being a terrorist.

[SeptimusMagistos]

In Exile wrote...

KainD wrote...
Templar order is a millitary order of the chantry, thus Anders blows the chantry. Logic - it's present. 
Anders did everything right. I only hate him for not being honest with me from the beginning, I would still help him. 

No, the logic isn't present. And Anders's stated goal wasn't to strike at the Templars - it was to force Meredith into annulment and force the mages to fight back. He wanted to explode the powderkeg that was Kirkwall, not improve the lives of mages. He sais as much to Orsino when Orsino says that his actions condemend everyone to death.

This type of logic justifies attacking civilian targets, and that's NOT okay. FULL STOP. It's the very essence of being a terrorist.

You have to admit it worked.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

So your defense of terrorism is if it works then its acceptable?

I'm a hardcore Mage supporter and even I know that Anders is not the kind of person you want on your side.

[In Exile]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

You have to admit it worked.

It didn't. According to the DA Wiki in Asunder, it wasn't even Anders's actions that led to the separation from the Chantry of the Circles.

All it led to was the Rite of Annulment and the death of the Kirkwall Circle for the sake of Ander's vanity.

[elfdwarf]

choose the leadership for faction like in origins

[MisterJB]

KainD wrote...
Templar order is a millitary order of the chantry, thus Anders blows the chantry. Logic - it's present. 
Anders did everything right. I only hate him for not being honest with me from the beginning, I would still help him. 

There are many and more mages who are just happy in the Circle. When Bethany tries to defend life in it, Anders' response is that she doesn't know better.
So, in his mind, Anders is the only one who knows how things should be. He, apparently, knows what is good for the mages better than the mages and thus that justifies pulling the world into a war nobody wanted, neither the templars nor the mages; beyond the fanatical ones like Meredith and Adrian; and much less the innocents of Thedas who are going to get caught in the middle.

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
I see. Obviously, I feel that if you were to ask the mages at the time for their opinion, you'd get something considerably less than 'cheerful'.

Life in a luxurious tower amongst your own kind where you are fed, clothed and educated without having to work for it? I'd be cheerful.

In a way that's minimally disruptive to their lives, yes.

I get the argument that other people are affected by a mage's presence, I really do. But I feel that doesn't give them the right to uniletally impose their will on the mage.

Please don't drag the old 'quarantine' argument into this, since I'm pretty sure you've made it clear that you would support the circles even if the chance of mages being possessed was zero. Mundanes may rightly be concerned about the mages' power and the whole thing may require some sort of an arrangement, but I feel that the one that's in place right now is totally skewed. (and not actually all that helpful.)

All I ask is that what is equal be treated as equal and what is unequal as unequal.
In our own enligthened societies, the freedom of our citizens are restricted to ensure the common good. It's why we have rules, not because we know for sure peope are dangerous but because there exists the possibility they are.
Mages and mundanes are not equal; treating them as such helps no one. Since their potential for destruction if greater than that of a mundane, the mages' freedom should account for that fact. Afterall, mages don't need demons to be dangerous.

Not judging by the differences in her reaction vs. that of other students.

People react differently. Her hate for her own magic certainly helped altough I'd doubt she'd be suicidal without Uldred's little revolution.
I get why you don't like it. I do. Personally, my first gut reaction is to agree that teaching the mages the Maker hates them is not necessary.
But on the other hand, fear of divine judgement helps keep people honest. Would Keilia still be a good woman willing to help others had she been born in Tevinter? I doubt it.

I think that was around the time the Grey Wardens were threatening to kill his family if he didn't do magic for them. It may have affected his thinking.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't see what is wrong with his line of thinking. Malcolm Hawke is an exemplary mage.

Because apparently despite spending all that time killing Templars she doesn't quite understand that our group was on a mission to kill all Templars.

First of all, speak for yourself. My group was on no such mission.
Second, kill all templars? Are you serious? Never mind the fact we meet an exceedingly high number of good templars such as Gregoir, Emeric, Ser Otto the Blind, all the templars who stayed behind to protect Lothering, Thrask and many others? According to Bethany's and Allia's letters if sent to the Circle, even the templars of Kirkwall are not interested in violence and just want things to return to normal.
And what about the fact that the templars represent self reliance for the mundanes of Thedas? To not be completely dependant upon honest mages to protect them from evil ones?

Instead, she decided to put her safety and the safety of others into the Templars' hands. She learned the error of her ways when her would-be guardians decided to kill her.

Or maybe she learned the error of trusting Anders when he decided for all mages that they would be free or dead and should kill who got in their way. Never mind that many mages actually acknowledged the fears of mundanes and like it just fine in the Circle.

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

Life in a luxurious tower amongst your own kind where you are fed, clothed and educated without having to work for it? I'd be cheerful.

It's extremely obvious that many mages don't share your opinion.

MisterJB wrote...
All I ask is that what is equal be treated as equal and what is unequal as unequal.
In our own enligthened societies, the freedom of our citizens are restricted to ensure the common good. It's why we have rules, not because we know for sure peope are dangerous but because there exists the possibility they are.
Mages and mundanes are not equal; treating them as such helps no one. Since their potential for destruction if greater than that of a mundane, the mages' freedom should account for that fact. Afterall, mages don't need demons to be dangerous.

I think making sure that mages who harm others are punished for that harm in the same way everyone else is good enough, honestly. I simply don't view the danger they represent as extreme enough to throw out the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty'.

MisterJB wrote...
I get why you don't like it. I do. Personally, my first gut reaction is to agree that teaching the mages the Maker hates them is not necessary.
But on the other hand, fear of divine judgement helps keep people honest. Would Keilia still be a good woman willing to help others had she been born in Tevinter? I doubt it.

It summons too many bad real-world parallels for me. I wouldn't necessarily mind a 'Maker will hate you if you abuse your magic' message. A 'the Maker hates you just for having magic' one?

The sections of the Chantry involved with the mages will pay.

MisterJB wrote...
Maybe, maybe not. I don't see what is wrong with his line of thinking. Malcolm Hawke is an exemplary mage.

Despite his philosophy rather than because of it, I'd say.

MisterJB wrote...
First of all, speak for yourself. My group was on no such mission.

I was speaking for myself. And my group quite clearly did.

MisterJB wrote...
Second, kill all templars? Are you serious?

Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but that's what I promised Justice. And then Anders ran out of the tower despite the fact that we had the perfect opening to strike at their soft, undefended underbelly.

MisterJB wrote...
Never mind the fact we meet an exceedingly high number of good templars such as Gregoir, Emeric, Ser Otto the Blind, all the templars who stayed behind to protect Lothering, Thrask and many others?

Honestly, the game tends to sort those out. I was hoping Thrask might help me, actually.

I wouldn't mind draining Gregoir's blood through his ears, though. The Amel family still has a score to settle with him.

MisterJB wrote...
According to Bethany's and Allia's letters if sent to the Circle, even the templars of Kirkwall are not interested in violence and just want things to return to normal.

Oh, so they just want to return to the situation where they lock up all mages without the slightest wrongdoing and then hold the power of life and death over them? I can see why it's an attractive proposition for them. However, bad news:  I'm interested in violence.

MisterJB wrote...
And what about the fact that the templars represent self reliance for the mundanes of Thedas? To not be completely dependant upon honest mages to protect them from evil ones?

I mostly meant all templars in Kirkwal. But of course any of them comfortable with the idea that circles are an evil to be purged from the land would be welcome to stay.

Honestly, my primary in-character motivation has always been to take one look at Merrill and decide who lives and who dies based on what they'd do to her. If their response isn't 'let her live in peace'? We have a big problem on our hands.

MisterJB wrote...

Or maybe she learned the error of trusting Anders when he decided for all mages that they would be free or dead and should kill who got in their way. Never mind that many mages actually acknowledged the fears of mundanes and like it just fine in the Circle.

And when push comes to shove living in a circle meant that they could be killed despite doing nothing to deserve it. So yeah, Anders was actually vindicated in that one.

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
Life in a luxurious tower amongst your own kind where you are fed, clothed and educated without having to work for it? I'd be cheerful.

With the occasional rape and beatings thrown in for good measure, and where they can forcibly wipe your entire mind?

[In Exile]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Honestly, my primary in-character motivation has always been to take one look at Merrill and decide who lives and who dies based on what they'd do to her. If their response isn't 'let her live in peace'? We have a big problem on our hands

Anders wouldn't let her live in peace. So you do have a big problem on your hands.

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It's extremely obvious that many mages don't share your opinion.

It is extremely obvious that many mages have no idea how hard life is outside of the tower. The peasants of Thedas are not eating cake at every meal and reading books by the light of their hearts at night.

I think making sure that mages who harm others are punished for that harm in the same way everyone else is good enough, honestly. I simply don't view the danger they represent as extreme enough to throw out the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty'.

You are still thinking of the Circle in terms of punishment. It's no more a punishment than the regulations of the roads are a punishment for those who drive cars. They're a precaution, that's all.

The sections of the Chantry involved with the mages will pay.

Never mind that the Chantry has sheltered mages for generations.

Despite his philosophy rather than because of it, I'd say.

I disagree, his philosophy is just fine.

Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but that's what I promised Justice. And then Anders ran out of the tower despite the fact that we had the perfect opening to strike at their soft, undefended underbelly.

Realizing that your an Abomination is probrably very shocking.

I wouldn't mind draining Gregoir's blood through his ears, though. The Amel family still has a score to settle with him.

What for?

Oh, so they just want to return to the situation where they lock up all mages without the slightest wrongdoing and then hold the power of life and death over them? I can see why it's an attractive proposition for them. However, bad news:  I'm interested in violence.

Giving mages free shelter, food and education while equally sharing power with them, you mean.
This idea that templars hold the power of life and death is such a hugh misconception. The power in the tower is divided equally between the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter. No mage may be made Tranquill or executed or sent to the Harrowing without the approval of both. And after the Harrowing, the mage can't be made Tranquil or killed under any circunstace. S/he is just sent to Aeonar which is an actual prison for mages.
Meredith broke these laws but any system can be abused if the wrong person is placed in the wrong position.

I mostly meant all templars in Kirkwal. But of course any of them comfortable with the idea that circles are an evil to be purged from the land would be welcome to stay.

My way or the highway. Right.

Honestly, my primary in-character motivation has always been to take one look at Merrill and decide who lives and who dies based on what they'd do to her. If their response isn't 'let her live in peace'? We have a big problem on our hands.

The...Huon in the making? I'd have gladly lead her to the Gallows while claiming she was going to the Alienage the first day in Kirkwall had I been able to. I mean, not only can you not use a single mage as a moral compass, Merril is not even a very good one.
BTW, Anders chose to throw Merril in a war

Well, that's love for you I guess. My Warden is pretty much a walking blasphemy after fathering an Old God in an apostate and malleficar and walking through an elven magical device with her. And I'm a bit of an hypocrite.

And when push comes to shove living in a circle meant that they could be killed despite doing nothing to deserve it. So yeah, Anders was actually vindicated in that one.

Grand Cleric Elthina, a member of the Chantry, was preventing things from escalating. Had Anders not assassinated her, nothing would have happened. Same thing in Asunder, where a mage commits murder to throw the Spire into chaos.
Maybe the mages should take a long and careful look within their own ranks before claiming how templars are to blame for this war.

[MisterJB]

In Exile wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Life in a luxurious tower amongst your own kind where you are fed, clothed and educated without having to work for it? I'd be cheerful.

With the occasional rape and beatings thrown in for good measure, and where they can forcibly wipe your entire mind?

Nothing is perfect. Their living conditions are still vastly superior to millions of people both in Thedas and in our real world.

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
Nothing is perfect. Their living conditions are still vastly superior to millions of people both in Thedas and in our real world.

It's still a thing we can try to fix, and pretty easily at that. That it's a sweet ride doesn't justify rapes and being made forcibly tranquil.

[MisterJB]

In Exile wrote...
It's still a thing we can try to fix, and pretty easily at that. That it's a sweet ride doesn't justify rapes and being made forcibly tranquil.

I am open to changes in the Circle system, not its abolition.
It does bother me hearing someone; such as Anders; going over and over and over about the "plight" of the mages when they live much better than most people in Thedas.

[elfdwarf]

if anders didn't kill Grand Cleric, surely Meredith would go crazy an kill Grand Cleric and blame blood magic to boot