475 réponses à ce sujet

[Versus Omnibus]

After reading that article, I can only hope the developers still see there is some good in the BSN.

[3DandBeyond]

Zjarcal wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

...but I absolutely hate that they cast us all in that light.  Blogging about the BSN in such a negative light, saying it's toxic and all, makes us seem like a bunch of well, haters.

"You can, in fact, meet and talk to some very keen and intelligent posters. And that’s very true. If it weren’t true, I wouldn’t go there at all."

I think that quote made it very clear he's not casting everyone in that light.

But the effect is that it casts everyone in that light.  And that sentence puts the keen and intelligent posters into a minority segment of the population here.  Some posters.  I stand by the thought that it gives the impression that we are all like that (and I say that knowing I can be and have been as obnoxioius as anyone, though not threatening at all).  There's no excuse for labeling a large section of the fanbase that frequents the BSN as contributing to a toxic atmosfphere if you are doing nothing yourself to help clean it up.  And especially when representing the company with their hands out.  That's just not a good business strategy at all.  And anywhere I've worked it is a big NO.  Remember people here bought the product-registered owners.

[S3Plan]

xsdob wrote...

Mirandamancers split apart after there was a war about, apparently, whether people should point out how sexy she is, or ignore than and focus soley on her personality.

jesus fecking christ

[Arcadian Legend]

bobobo878 wrote...
What epic troll threads, I've never written one in my life.

I'm just kidding around. ()

Modifié par Arcadian Legend, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:00 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

...but I absolutely hate that they cast us all in that light.  Blogging about the BSN in such a negative light, saying it's toxic and all, makes us seem like a bunch of well, haters.

"You can, in fact, meet and talk to some very keen and intelligent posters. And that’s very true. If it weren’t true, I wouldn’t go there at all."

I think that quote made it very clear he's not casting everyone in that light.

But the effect is that it casts everyone in that light.  And that sentence puts the keen and intelligent posters into a minority segment of the population here.  Some posters.  I stand by the thought that it gives the impression that we are all like that (and I say that knowing I can be and have been as obnoxioius as anyone, though not threatening at all).  There's no excuse for labeling a large section of the fanbase that frequents the BSN as contributing to a toxic atmosfphere if you are doing nothing yourself to help clean it up.  And especially when representing the company with their hands out.  That's just not a good business strategy at all.  And anywhere I've worked it is a big NO.  Remember people here bought the product-registered owners.

Have you seen the majority of the posts made here? Keen and intelligent posters are a minority, and they have been even during the ME2 days.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

BSN might be a "toxic environment" right now and I can relate to how developers feel about this, but they should keep in mind why this happened in the first place.

The sickening people are not constantly hating because it's fun, but because they were deeply hurt themselves. People just tend to get very cynical if you treat them like ****.

You don't want to get insulted? Then just stop insulting others.

This is the big part of it.  Someone must be the first to stop.  And the one that has the biggest stick or that owns the forum and that wants our loyalty in the form of money, I would contend needs to be the one to be the bigger person here.  The BSN is a lot of different voices all with different opinions that sometimes converge.  But BW itself wields the microphone and could start to mend things, even if they don't personally believe they started it.  Again, as someone who's worked in Customer Service in retail, has worked in Emergency Services, owns a business, and all that stuff, I can say that the business always must find a way to be conciliatory and say "I'm sorry" in some way, even if it is just to say "sorry, we didn't meet your expectations".  It is always up to the one who wants you to give them money to give you a reason to want to give it. 

And, in every place I have ever worked it was not advisable to get into pissing matches with customers.  Deal with those with evil intent, and don't argue with the others.  I actually made friends with people that were mad at my workplace (without every having insulted my employer) so it can be done.  But you have to be willing to at least try.  And that's not saying that fans have done nothing wrong.  We are supposedly adults and should keep this in perspective.  It's a game, a thing, and not as important as the feelings of real people.  So we can be persistent to a fault, but it's not war.

Totally agree with you. I have been saying this for so long now. Bioware needs to issue a formal apology for the mess they made . Just like what CD ProjektRed did. It would also improve BW's PR with fans. Sure it is late but better late than never. 

http://www.rockpaper...-legal-threats/ 

Another good example of developer apologizing is Eidos Montreal with DE:HR. Players hated the boss fights in DEHR. & Eidos did apolgize for it, even if it was a long time after the game came out. 

http://www.gameinfor...oss-fights.aspx 

Apologizing is the first road to mending & acceptance...If BW cannot even do something so simple & so profound..Things are never going to change..

[Volc19]

The Sin wrote...

Volc19 wrote...

If we're only looked at as a pit of blind hate, shouldn't we just stop? I mean, I'm not sure that they pull anything of value out of our statements anymore.

If they don't, they will keep making games which disappoint, enrage & make people feel betrayed even more...  I think they shouldn't just ignore us...Ignoring a crowd of people has never led to anything good because they will rebel even more.... 

I know they should, but if they think we're so toxic of an environment they won't listen to us.

We can't complain about quality at all anymore. They are in the mindset that we complain about everything, making anything we say pointless.

If they won't listen, why don't we just stop talking?

[3DandBeyond]

Volc19 wrote...

If we're only looked at as a pit of blind hate, shouldn't we just stop? I mean, I'm not sure that they pull anything of value out of our statements anymore.

See I think someone once said that if you make a big enough commotion, a lot of noise, sooner or later someone will come to see what the problem is.  Oh yeah, that was BW in ME3.  And then they decided that no one should come and see what the problem is.

[Epique Phael767]

The Sin wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

BSN might be a "toxic environment" right now and I can relate to how developers feel about this, but they should keep in mind why this happened in the first place.

The sickening people are not constantly hating because it's fun, but because they were deeply hurt themselves. People just tend to get very cynical if you treat them like ****.

You don't want to get insulted? Then just stop insulting others.

This is the big part of it.  Someone must be the first to stop.  And the one that has the biggest stick or that owns the forum and that wants our loyalty in the form of money, I would contend needs to be the one to be the bigger person here.  The BSN is a lot of different voices all with different opinions that sometimes converge.  But BW itself wields the microphone and could start to mend things, even if they don't personally believe they started it.  Again, as someone who's worked in Customer Service in retail, has worked in Emergency Services, owns a business, and all that stuff, I can say that the business always must find a way to be conciliatory and say "I'm sorry" in some way, even if it is just to say "sorry, we didn't meet your expectations".  It is always up to the one who wants you to give them money to give you a reason to want to give it. 

And, in every place I have ever worked it was not advisable to get into pissing matches with customers.  Deal with those with evil intent, and don't argue with the others.  I actually made friends with people that were mad at my workplace (without every having insulted my employer) so it can be done.  But you have to be willing to at least try.  And that's not saying that fans have done nothing wrong.  We are supposedly adults and should keep this in perspective.  It's a game, a thing, and not as important as the feelings of real people.  So we can be persistent to a fault, but it's not war.

Totally agree with you. I have been saying this for so long now. Bioware needs to issue a formal apology for the mess they made . Just like what CD ProjektRed did. It would also improve BW's PR with fans. Sure it is late but better late than never. 

http://www.rockpaper...-legal-threats/ 

Another good example of developer apologizing is Eidos Montreal with DE:HR. Players hated the boss fights in DEHR. & Eidos did apolgize for it, even if it was a long time after the game came out. 

http://www.gameinfor...oss-fights.aspx 

Apologizing is the first road to mending & acceptance...If BW cannot even do something so simple & so profound..Things are never going to change..

You have to think what you did was wrong before you can apologize.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
Have you seen the majority of the posts made here? Keen and intelligent posters are a minority, and they have been even during the ME2 days.

I wasn't *that* bad during the ME2 days, IMO. It wasn't like, a paradise of conversation or anything, but the culture of "anger" wasn't around then.

I think BSN's more a place for people to commiserate and vent about how the game made them unhappy than it is a place for actual conversation at this point. Not that a lot of posts here aren't totally worthless anger, but there's a reason people are unhappy. 

[Chala]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

After reading that article, I can only hope the developers still see there is some good in the BSN.

There's good here, both the Twitter thread (Which is basically all that matters in General Discussion) and MP section are pretty cool places.

Well, MP is cool place on it's own way, but you get the idea: Not everything you see is hate, it's a pretty active place and people lends you a hand on almost every matter if you ask.
And let's not forget how things get when we realize that the mods are away

Modifié par El_Chala_Legalizado, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:08 .

[dreamgazer]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

You have to think what you did was wrong before you can apologize.

Indeed.

[ZLurps]

Arcadian Legend wrote...

wafflez wrote...

Seriously though, I feel like maybe starting a nostalgia thread now where we can just talk about the good old days.

I remember when I used to get into great discussions with EternalAmbiguity (now known as EntropicAngel) and DeanTheYoung on the ME3 boards before release. Then there's the thread drive to get ME: Deception rewritten. That was surprisingly civil and fun to be a part of. (For the most part) Bo's epic troll threads are worth mentioning too, though that might have been after ME3 came out.

But BSN. BSN has changed...

Deception controversy thread was finest moment of this forum. Very civil, people working together. It made me realise many things about fans of ME series. No matter how grumby I can be and how grotesque my sense of humour can be, some things I saw there broke my damn heart.

[PsiMatrix]

Thing is; it's Bioware's forums. Get a tough moderator or five to start some new rules, Wheaton's Law the place and then start getting tough when devs are put in the firing line.

Posting here is a priviledge of owning a Bioware game not a right.

[Epique Phael767]

El_Chala_Legalizado wrote...
And let's not forget how things get when we realize that the mods are away

Hence this thread.

[Iakus]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Have you seen the majority of the posts made here? Keen and intelligent posters are a minority, and they have been even during the ME2 days.

If Bioware only listened to 3DAndBeyond, TheRealJayDee, and Drayfish, the rest of us could just go home confident the message was sent

[Stalker]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

The Sin wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

BSN might be a "toxic environment" right now and I can relate to how developers feel about this, but they should keep in mind why this happened in the first place.

The sickening people are not constantly hating because it's fun, but because they were deeply hurt themselves. People just tend to get very cynical if you treat them like ****.

You don't want to get insulted? Then just stop insulting others.

This is the big part of it.  Someone must be the first to stop.  And the one that has the biggest stick or that owns the forum and that wants our loyalty in the form of money, I would contend needs to be the one to be the bigger person here.  The BSN is a lot of different voices all with different opinions that sometimes converge.  But BW itself wields the microphone and could start to mend things, even if they don't personally believe they started it.  Again, as someone who's worked in Customer Service in retail, has worked in Emergency Services, owns a business, and all that stuff, I can say that the business always must find a way to be conciliatory and say "I'm sorry" in some way, even if it is just to say "sorry, we didn't meet your expectations".  It is always up to the one who wants you to give them money to give you a reason to want to give it. 

And, in every place I have ever worked it was not advisable to get into pissing matches with customers.  Deal with those with evil intent, and don't argue with the others.  I actually made friends with people that were mad at my workplace (without every having insulted my employer) so it can be done.  But you have to be willing to at least try.  And that's not saying that fans have done nothing wrong.  We are supposedly adults and should keep this in perspective.  It's a game, a thing, and not as important as the feelings of real people.  So we can be persistent to a fault, but it's not war.

Totally agree with you. I have been saying this for so long now. Bioware needs to issue a formal apology for the mess they made . Just like what CD ProjektRed did. It would also improve BW's PR with fans. Sure it is late but better late than never. 

http://www.rockpaper...-legal-threats/ 

Another good example of developer apologizing is Eidos Montreal with DE:HR. Players hated the boss fights in DEHR. & Eidos did apolgize for it, even if it was a long time after the game came out. 

http://www.gameinfor...oss-fights.aspx 

Apologizing is the first road to mending & acceptance...If BW cannot even do something so simple & so profound..Things are never going to change..

You have to think what you did was wrong before you can apologize.

That's a huge problem BioWare has right now and that's also where the disconnect comes from.

They seem to think they did everything right and BSN is the root of all evil. Even in the open letter from some high horse (forget who it was) that addressed the ending, they seemed to have had a hard time going around the acceptance that they are the ones who made the mistakes. They basically told people how wrong they are.

Instead of going into their customers' concerns, being on their side, they stand against them and argue. You just don't do that.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:13 .

[Epique Phael767]

PsiMatrix wrote...

Thing is; it's Bioware's forums. Get a tough moderator or five to start some new rules, Wheaton's Law the place and then start getting tough when devs are put in the firing line.

Posting here is a priviledge of owning a Bioware game not a right.

It is a privilege, but imagine how decrepit it would be if people could no longe voice their opinions. The majority would leave.

[Obadiah]

Epique Phael767 wrote...
...
It is a privilege, but imagine how decrepit it would be if people could no longe voice their opinions. The majority would leave.

Right, as opposed to what we have now in this forum.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

PsiMatrix wrote...

Thing is; it's Bioware's forums. Get a tough moderator or five to start some new rules, Wheaton's Law the place and then start getting tough when devs are put in the firing line.

Posting here is a priviledge of owning a Bioware game not a right.

It is a privilege, but imagine how decrepit it would be if people could no longe voice their opinions. The majority would leave.

Well. There is voicing your opinion.

And then you have threads like these....

[Epique Phael767]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Epique Phael767 wrote...

The Sin wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

BSN might be a "toxic environment" right now and I can relate to how developers feel about this, but they should keep in mind why this happened in the first place.

The sickening people are not constantly hating because it's fun, but because they were deeply hurt themselves. People just tend to get very cynical if you treat them like ****.

You don't want to get insulted? Then just stop insulting others.

This is the big part of it.  Someone must be the first to stop.  And the one that has the biggest stick or that owns the forum and that wants our loyalty in the form of money, I would contend needs to be the one to be the bigger person here.  The BSN is a lot of different voices all with different opinions that sometimes converge.  But BW itself wields the microphone and could start to mend things, even if they don't personally believe they started it.  Again, as someone who's worked in Customer Service in retail, has worked in Emergency Services, owns a business, and all that stuff, I can say that the business always must find a way to be conciliatory and say "I'm sorry" in some way, even if it is just to say "sorry, we didn't meet your expectations".  It is always up to the one who wants you to give them money to give you a reason to want to give it. 

And, in every place I have ever worked it was not advisable to get into pissing matches with customers.  Deal with those with evil intent, and don't argue with the others.  I actually made friends with people that were mad at my workplace (without every having insulted my employer) so it can be done.  But you have to be willing to at least try.  And that's not saying that fans have done nothing wrong.  We are supposedly adults and should keep this in perspective.  It's a game, a thing, and not as important as the feelings of real people.  So we can be persistent to a fault, but it's not war.

Totally agree with you. I have been saying this for so long now. Bioware needs to issue a formal apology for the mess they made . Just like what CD ProjektRed did. It would also improve BW's PR with fans. Sure it is late but better late than never. 

http://www.rockpaper...-legal-threats/ 

Another good example of developer apologizing is Eidos Montreal with DE:HR. Players hated the boss fights in DEHR. & Eidos did apolgize for it, even if it was a long time after the game came out. 

http://www.gameinfor...oss-fights.aspx 

Apologizing is the first road to mending & acceptance...If BW cannot even do something so simple & so profound..Things are never going to change..

You have to think what you did was wrong before you can apologize.

That's a huge problem BioWare has right now and that's also where the disconnect comes from.

They seem to think they did everything right and BSN is the root of all evil. Even in the open letter from some high horse (forget who it was) that addressed the ending, they seemed to have had a hard time going around the acceptance that they are the ones who made the mistakes.

Instead of going into their customers' concerns, they stand against them and justify how they are right. You just don't do that.

The heart of it is mac and casey throwing the "art" sticker on it. in art, nothing is supposed to be right or wrong, but when something is mass produced for sale, it becomes more product than art, and bioware doesn't accept that they failed at making a good product.

[ME859]

The Sin wrote...

Totally agree with you. I have been saying this for so long now. Bioware needs to issue a formal apology for the mess they made . Just like what CD ProjektRed did. It would also improve BW's PR with fans. Sure it is late but better late than never. 

http://www.rockpaper...-legal-threats/ 

I personally don't care about an apology.  I would rather them give me an alternate ending I loved while calling me the same names people called them for the last 10 months.  With that said it probably would go a long way towards PR.  The fact of the matter is people love to forgive, almost too much.  I look at numerous celebrities that get convicted of domestic violence and way too many have been able to put it behind them.   

For this though you have to look no further then Lebron James.  I mean sure the city of Cleveland still hates his guts but his image since he won a title and humbled himself is a complete 180 from the guy who told reporters that people criticize him because they hate their lives after loosing to Dallas.  

Does it bother that so many people are happy to see you fail?

“Absolutely Not, cause at the end of the day, Ummmm, all the people who are rooting for me to fail, ummm, at the end of the day, they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today

Heck Ron Artest punched a fan on camera in front of 1,000's of people and now he's a fan favorite.

Modifié par ME859, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:13 .