475 réponses à ce sujet

[Epique Phael767]

RedJohn wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

Devs visit the MP forum, the legend says there are more rational people than story forums

Rational? Or just easier to please?

You'd be surprised how bad the MP forums can be too, and it's much harder because on MP there are weekly changes and people complain for everything.

The volus threads were by far the best spam and troll threads to ever hit BSN.

[Jadebaby]

spirosz wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

iakus wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Have you seen the majority of the posts made here? Keen and intelligent posters are a minority, and they have been even during the ME2 days.

If Bioware only listened to 3DAndBeyond, TheRealJayDee, and Drayfish, the rest of us could just go home confident the message was sent

Dude, I'm actually blushing right now to be mentioned with those guys...

Why is Gmag not on dat list, tbh. 

Who's Gmag?

3DandBeyond wrote...
Also, I have a pretty decent sized friend's list (not because I'm all that friendly or anything) and I've gotten messages from people who apologize for not being able to write well, things I could misunderstand and interpret badly, but I bottom line it. I try to really understand what they are trying to say to me and I don' imagine bad intent. I also tell them especially if they are not English speaking that there's no reason to apologize. Writing for meaning is difficult, especially in a text messaging world.

You are friendly, don't be modest

[Bayonet Hipshot]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The Sin wrote...

PsiMatrix wrote...

Thing is; it's Bioware's forums. Get a tough moderator or five to start some new rules, Wheaton's Law the place and then start getting tough when devs are put in the firing line.

Posting here is a priviledge of owning a Bioware game not a right.

Fair point but if they do that..they will lose the critical feedback from fans because we don't want to get banned for posting something against Bioware or suggesting that they should change stuff

& then they will keep on making games ...Games with no feedback, no input & we will get mad even more...

Hmm, best way to deal with registered owners (read: purchasers) of your product is to start a ban-a-thon, especially when you've not tried to do anything else to actually start a real conversation with them?  Sounds good to me.

Actually, the best way to handle it would be to state that at some point and time an open discussion of the events would take place and that certain rules for posting would be strictly adhered to.  A forum could be created where fans would be allowed to ask questions, BW would respond, but each "side" in the debate would have to abide by the set rules.  Create not a fight, but a discussion of the events.  The problem is that in some ways BW is acting too much like a company-they fear being held legally to blame (I think) if they admit they erred or say, lied or misrepresented things.  In other ways they don't act professionally at all, by fomenting anger and hostility by talking about fans elsewhere. 

And fans, of course are responsible for how they act as well.  But you could have a heavily moderated discussion with BW on the topic and where to go from here-with BW wanting to know what reasonably could be done to "fix" this.  That is one of the main questions that a Customer Service rep will ask a disgruntled customer-how can I make it right?  I don't see any of this as happening, but the very last thing they should do is to police this site with a heavy hand and never open up a discussion with fans.

Yep...It would a huge move in the right direction if an ME dev just starts a thread saying : ' What can we do to make things right for ME & for you guys, the fans ? " ...& sift through the comments, the trolls & try to implement some of the requested changes in an upcoming DLC or in a patch. 

[spirosz]

Jade8aby88 wrote...
Who's Gmag?

Is... that a serious question homie?  

[frustratemyself]

Bravely honest blog from DG.

[Jake Boone]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Why is Gmag not on dat list, tbh.

wafflez wrote...

Why isn't gmag on the list? Hella rude tbh

Arcadian Legend wrote...

gmag was another thing tat mde bsn gr8 back in the day tbh

Removing gmag from here was definitely not something that made the BSN a better, friendlier place...

What was the official reason for banning gmag?

[Epique Phael767]

The Sin wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The Sin wrote...

PsiMatrix wrote...

Thing is; it's Bioware's forums. Get a tough moderator or five to start some new rules, Wheaton's Law the place and then start getting tough when devs are put in the firing line.

Posting here is a priviledge of owning a Bioware game not a right.

Fair point but if they do that..they will lose the critical feedback from fans because we don't want to get banned for posting something against Bioware or suggesting that they should change stuff

& then they will keep on making games ...Games with no feedback, no input & we will get mad even more...

Hmm, best way to deal with registered owners (read: purchasers) of your product is to start a ban-a-thon, especially when you've not tried to do anything else to actually start a real conversation with them?  Sounds good to me.

Actually, the best way to handle it would be to state that at some point and time an open discussion of the events would take place and that certain rules for posting would be strictly adhered to.  A forum could be created where fans would be allowed to ask questions, BW would respond, but each "side" in the debate would have to abide by the set rules.  Create not a fight, but a discussion of the events.  The problem is that in some ways BW is acting too much like a company-they fear being held legally to blame (I think) if they admit they erred or say, lied or misrepresented things.  In other ways they don't act professionally at all, by fomenting anger and hostility by talking about fans elsewhere. 

And fans, of course are responsible for how they act as well.  But you could have a heavily moderated discussion with BW on the topic and where to go from here-with BW wanting to know what reasonably could be done to "fix" this.  That is one of the main questions that a Customer Service rep will ask a disgruntled customer-how can I make it right?  I don't see any of this as happening, but the very last thing they should do is to police this site with a heavy hand and never open up a discussion with fans.

Yep...It would a huge move in the right direction if an ME dev just starts a thread saying : ' What can we do to make things right for ME & for you guys, the fans ? " ...& sift through the comments, the trolls & try to implement some of the requested changes in an upcoming DLC or in a patch. 

The sad thing is the number of people willing to pay for things that should have been in the game initially. (Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 anyone?)

[3DandBeyond]

The Sin wrote...


So much win here. Devs like Gaider, especially someone like him who is a writer should know stuff like this. That there is a message, that there is a point that you can find amid all the hate & vitriol..

Ignoring it & running away from it doesn't solve anything. It is a form of escapism that will work for a short while .....

Exactly to the point.  You may learn nothing from those who always agree with you, but can learn a lot from those that don't.  You might just solidify your beliefs or you might see that others have just as valid, but different, perspectives. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:37 .

[Abraham_uk]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Why is Gmag not on dat list, tbh.

wafflez wrote...

Why isn't gmag on the list? Hella rude tbh

Arcadian Legend wrote...

gmag was another thing tat mde bsn gr8 back in the day tbh

Removing gmag from here was definitely not something that made the BSN a better, friendlier place...

GMagnum's combination of text speak and street talk made him an instant sensation on BSN.
At the time I found it annoying, but then it grew on me.
Now I miss it. I hope the ban on GMagnum is removed.
He was the unofficial BSN mascott.

Yeah you can still private message him if you like.
(I think GMagnum is a he. But could be a she in disguise for all I know)...

[Iakus]

RedJohn wrote...

You'd be surprised how bad the MP forums can be too, and it's much harder because on MP there are weekly changes and people complain for everything.

I've lurked there from time to time.

That place is strong in the Elitist Side.

[Jadebaby]

RedJohn wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

Devs visit the MP forum, the legend says there are more rational people than story forums

Rational? Or just easier to please?

You'd be surprised how bad the MP forums can be too, and it's much harder because on MP there are weekly changes and people complain for everything.

I know, I've been there. Honestly. I'd say that the MP complaining is much worse than the SP complaining.

In the SP forums they mostly complain about the story.

In the MP forums they complain about everything, from the game's difficulty (too easy or hard), the game's weapons (nerf v buff), and everything else about the game. Then they also complain about each other, PUG's, other posters, etc...

I tried hanging out there a few times when the SP got really bad. But I found no refuge there.

[xsdob]

Volus Vagabond wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Volus Vagabond wrote...

The ponies.. they aren't working.. screw it.

Gaider's blog post is blatant flamebait. Sorry. Is he TRYING to stir up Heplergate 2.0?

"Well, you guys are a bunch of malignant @ssholes, but I still want to say you're entitled to your opinion." That's basically what that blog boils down to.

Cmon. Spare me.

If you hate the community's general attitude and tone that is FINE. But publicly criticizing it expecting no backash, like it won't cause problems or be held against you? That's analogous to a waiter saying you smell like **** and then demanding additional tip money. Don't insult us publicly and then expect us to be all sunshine and rainbows about it. That is inexcusably STUPID. Cramming your writings full of weasel statements does not change the effect.

Yes, this community is often very hostile and very partisan. You'd have to be dumb, deaf, and blind not to notice it. However, whining about it on the internet is about the worst course of action you could take, spare whining about it in a publicized interview. It puts you on the same level as those you despise. You go from Bioware writer, still revered by some, to just another whiner.

Step up, rise above, and tough it out.

So basically the bsn **** it's pants, and bioware is in the wrong for calling it out on ****ting it's pants as a waiter thinking of the other guest there.

BSN has a very big problem, and that problem is that it likes to criticize harshly on everything, and has skin as thick as a half-a-waifer when it comes to discussing it's problems.

Yes, BSN is royally screwed up.

But so is the rest of the internet. 4chan, reddit, so on and so forth. Are those shining beacons of optimism and constructive thinkg?

No.

Or what about Blizzard's forums?

Painfully juvenille. No thinking at ALL. "Yes-man or shut up" mentality.

What makes you think that BSN can be the exception to the trend of all this crap?

I think gaidner was talking about online forums in general, and just used the bsn as an example as he has the most experience with them and that was what the original questioner was asking about tbh.

It's more a critique on internet culture than of the bsn alone.

Modifié par xsdob, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:39 .

[spirosz]

Jake Boone wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Why is Gmag not on dat list, tbh.

wafflez wrote...

Why isn't gmag on the list? Hella rude tbh

Arcadian Legend wrote...

gmag was another thing tat mde bsn gr8 back in the day tbh

Removing gmag from here was definitely not something that made the BSN a better, friendlier place...

What was the official reason for banning gmag?

Dat postive influence and deep inception on Miranda's cheekz, tbh.

[samgurl775]

Learn from, Gaider. If you don't want to see so much negativity, make sure DA3 doesn't follow in the footsteps of ME3 and DA2.

[Epique Phael767]

iakus wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

You'd be surprised how bad the MP forums can be too, and it's much harder because on MP there are weekly changes and people complain for everything.

I've lurked there from time to time.

That place is strong in the Elitist Side.

There are a good number of people who are more casual (like myself), but they are often overshadowed.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Epique Phael767 wrote...

The Sin wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

BSN might be a "toxic environment" right now and I can relate to how developers feel about this, but they should keep in mind why this happened in the first place.

The sickening people are not constantly hating because it's fun, but because they were deeply hurt themselves. People just tend to get very cynical if you treat them like ****.

You don't want to get insulted? Then just stop insulting others.

This is the big part of it.  Someone must be the first to stop.  And the one that has the biggest stick or that owns the forum and that wants our loyalty in the form of money, I would contend needs to be the one to be the bigger person here.  The BSN is a lot of different voices all with different opinions that sometimes converge.  But BW itself wields the microphone and could start to mend things, even if they don't personally believe they started it.  Again, as someone who's worked in Customer Service in retail, has worked in Emergency Services, owns a business, and all that stuff, I can say that the business always must find a way to be conciliatory and say "I'm sorry" in some way, even if it is just to say "sorry, we didn't meet your expectations".  It is always up to the one who wants you to give them money to give you a reason to want to give it. 

And, in every place I have ever worked it was not advisable to get into pissing matches with customers.  Deal with those with evil intent, and don't argue with the others.  I actually made friends with people that were mad at my workplace (without every having insulted my employer) so it can be done.  But you have to be willing to at least try.  And that's not saying that fans have done nothing wrong.  We are supposedly adults and should keep this in perspective.  It's a game, a thing, and not as important as the feelings of real people.  So we can be persistent to a fault, but it's not war.

Totally agree with you. I have been saying this for so long now. Bioware needs to issue a formal apology for the mess they made . Just like what CD ProjektRed did. It would also improve BW's PR with fans. Sure it is late but better late than never. 

http://www.rockpaper...-legal-threats/ 

Another good example of developer apologizing is Eidos Montreal with DE:HR. Players hated the boss fights in DEHR. & Eidos did apolgize for it, even if it was a long time after the game came out. 

http://www.gameinfor...oss-fights.aspx 

Apologizing is the first road to mending & acceptance...If BW cannot even do something so simple & so profound..Things are never going to change..

You have to think what you did was wrong before you can apologize.

That's a huge problem BioWare has right now and that's also where the disconnect comes from.

They seem to think they did everything right and BSN is the root of all evil. Even in the open letter from some high horse (forget who it was) that addressed the ending, they seemed to have had a hard time going around the acceptance that they are the ones who made the mistakes.

Instead of going into their customers' concerns, they stand against them and justify how they are right. You just don't do that.

The heart of it is mac and casey throwing the "art" sticker on it. in art, nothing is supposed to be right or wrong, but when something is mass produced for sale, it becomes more product than art, and bioware doesn't accept that they failed at making a good product.

The thing is games can be art. Games can have their artistic integrity. But to have an artistic integrity, you need to develop & make the art entirely on your own and not have any fan feedback or ask for anything they want to see. You just make it & publish it. If people don't like it that's their problem. That's when artistic integrity & art applies

However, Mass Effect is not an art & it does not have artistic integrity. It was not developed by a sole writer or a sole designer for the purpose of just making it or putting it at an exhibtion, Mass Effect was made to be played & to be immersed in. Also, Bioware took a lot of feedback from the fans in ME1. That was how Garrus & Tali got their romances in ME2. & when you include feedback in your games, they cease to be art or have artistic integrity. They just become..games.. Or RPG games...

Modifié par The Sin, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:41 .

[Jadebaby]

spirosz wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...
Who's Gmag?

Is... that a serious question homie?  

Yea, I recognize Gmagnum. Didn't recognize Gmag.

[NatP]

The thing Gaider doesn't understand is that people are angry for a reason. If you look at just the anger, of course you'll have a bad impression of those people, how can you not?

However if you just try to understand the reason for that anger, you might be able to find that, well that person could have some really reasonable justifications for being upset, EVEN if they cannot express themselves the way they want. My first language is not english so I know how it feels not being able to say quite what you had in mind. But I digress.

All the fans want, and I know this to be true, is to feel like we're simply being HEARD. But then we hear statements like this and we have no choice but to feel like no matter what we do, and no matter how we say it, we're going to end up being the "bad guys" while Bioware will be seen as the martyr. This is unfathomable.

Just the other day a great topic was made with some high quality posts that expressed EXACTLY what we felt, and yet it was closed in a matter of hours and I'm certain no Bioware employee will ever read those posts. It just feels like we're banging our heads against the wall and Bioware is purposefully ignoring us. Now tell me: who would ever want to feel like this?

[Epique Phael767]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

Devs visit the MP forum, the legend says there are more rational people than story forums

Rational? Or just easier to please?

You'd be surprised how bad the MP forums can be too, and it's much harder because on MP there are weekly changes and people complain for everything.

I know, I've been there. Honestly. I'd say that the MP complaining is much worse than the SP complaining.

In the SP forums they mostly complain about the story.

In the MP forums they complain about everything, from the game's difficulty (too easy or hard), the game's weapons (nerf v buff), and everything else about the game. Then they also complain about each other, PUG's, other posters, etc...

I tried hanging out there a few times when the SP got really bad. But I found no refuge there.

It's only saving grace was the few hillarious troll threads, but they seem to have craked down on troll threads and spam. I was rather unproffesionally yelled at by a moderator over a minor joke thread.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

iakus wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

You'd be surprised how bad the MP forums can be too, and it's much harder because on MP there are weekly changes and people complain for everything.

I've lurked there from time to time.

That place is strong in the Elitist Side.

There are a good number of people who are more casual (like myself), but they are often overshadowed.

Yeah...the Dark Elitist Side of Gaming is strong in the MP forums..

[Mathias]

A lot of the toxicity on the BSN is Bioware's doing. Yes you can argue that at the end of the day, it's up to the user to decide what to say on the forums, but it was Bioware's lack of communication, understanding and respect to it's fans that caused a lot of this. And still to this day our concerns have been falling on deaf ears. Now they claim that they're listening and they see the comments, but have we seen any results towards this? No.

So of course there's going to be a lot of frustration within the community, and of course a lot of the fans are gonna use the forums to unleash that frustration.

[spirosz]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...
Who's Gmag?

Is... that a serious question homie?  

Yea, I recognize Gmagnum. Didn't recognize Gmag.

Combine the two and greatness will happen. 

[Iakus]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

A lot of the toxicity on the BSN is Bioware's doing. Yes you can argue that at the end of the day, it's up to the user to decide what to say on the forums, but it was Bioware's lack of communication, understanding and respect to it's fans that caused a lot of this. And still to this day our concerns have been falling on deaf ears. Now they claim that they're listening and they see the comments, but have we seen any results towards this? No.

So of course there's going to be a lot of frustration within the community, and of course a lot of the fans are gonna use the forums to unleash that frustration.

QFT

And I fear before too much longer more forums will go the way of the Character and Romance section.