36 réponses à ce sujet

[snackrat]

As the title says.
(I'll bold important segments for TL;DR)

As it stands, most relationships, both platonic and romantic, feel the 'need' for a sense of drama. As though it isn't 'interesting' enough for the PC to enjoy a basic, stable friendship/romance with the other NPC. This seems to apply most often to romantic relationships: apparently (I stress APPARENTLY) Varric was considered a romance option, but denied because 'there was no reason Varric and Hawke couldn't be together'. That is, there was no drama: and thus, no conflict, and no story.

Yet Varric is (probably) the most universally loved character, in DA2 at least, simply because he is a point of 'calm' for Hawke. Hawke can go and hang out with Varric (as much as the dialogue will allow). Varric can break tension with the occasional wisecrack. Varric ends up being a support for the PC, instead of just another problem on Hawke's to-do list (which most other characters eventually are).


So my questions to you, BSN, is this:

• Do you prefer it this way? Do you want every friendship to have drama, conflict, in the name of story and development?
• Do you feel like friends should be there as a support, and only your rivals should have that conflict?
• Do you feel like the plot should be kept in the plot, rather than your relationships?
• ...or perhaps you want a mix and things warrent - all calm is boring, but all drama is exhausting. Take solace in some, but work with others?

• Is your an ideal romance of "We can't be together, I'm bad for you, we wouldn't work, now try and prove me wrong", like Fenris and Anders? Or do you prefer your PC to have a comfortable romance without the unneccesary flair, like Isabela? (Regardless of whether it starts casual and becomes more: Zevran/Morrigan, or was romantic to start with like Alistair.)

For the purpose of discussion, sharing your preferences and your thoughts and opinions, what do you hope for?

Modifié par Karsciyin, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:06 .

[MisterJB]

Personally, I vastly prefer the relationships with the PC's companions to be filled with drama, the more they are tied to the main plot, the better.
However, I think the setting should also affect the types of relationships you can build with your characters.
In a story like DA2, I don't mind stable characters such as Varric because they fit the setting. The world does not hang in the balance of the PC's quest, there is no great evil burning women and raping churches. Hawke&Co are just trying to live their lives; most of the time, anyway.
But, there is a reason Isabela refuses to join the Warden in his quest to stop the Blight. Because she was selfish, at the time. She was not interested in saving the world. She didn't fit the setting.

[Plaintiff]

Well, I don't think Bioware is wrong. Stories do need drama and conflict. Even and perhaps especially romance. Let's face the facts, romance novels and films are not popular for their depiction of stable, healthy relationships. The stable, healthy relationship is the end goal. Once that point is reached, the romance story is over.

I do want every character to provide drama and conflict, but there are different ways to do that. Varric does provide drama and conflict, even if he never clashes with Hawke directly.

And just because other characters provide drama doesn't mean that the relationship is unhealthy, or that those characters can't also be a source of comfort. Anders was a source of comfort to my Hawke after Leandra's murder.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:23 .

[snackrat]

MisterJB wrote...
... there is no great evil burning women and raping churches. ...

[SeptimusMagistos]

Plaintiff wrote...

Well, I don't think Bioware is wrong. Stories do need drama and conflict. Even and perhaps especially romance. Let's face the facts, romance novels and films are not popular for their depiction of stable, healthy relationships. The stable, healthy relationship is the end goal. Once that point is reached, the romance story is over.

Judging from fan art and fan fiction communities, there does seem to be an unsatisfied need for drama-free, fluffy romance. Personally I do tend to go for whichever romance is the least dramatic and angsty and provides the most positive feelings. If I need conflict, I'll beat it out of some giant spiders.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

The conflict can be generated from an outward source; there doesn't necessarily have to be drama between two characters. 'Conflict' can also take many forms -- they may argue, or try to find a solution, but not necessarily turn unstable at some points and do something the other would completely disapprove of, only to make up.

That's why I think Bioware handles romances worse than friendships. Part of what makes Dragon Age 2 romances well... like that is because those 'struggles' could have been avoided (I think). Fenris leaving? Merrill doing... something with a mirror? (I'm not sure since my character didn't romance anyone).

[Wulfram]

I find it hard to care about a character with whom we can't spend a few companionable moments without drama or angst or conflict.

Generally, they do have these moments. Though Anders and Fenris were a bit light on them, which I assume was in part a word count issue - Fenris' dialogue with the other companions makes it clear that he doesn't spend his whole time talking about slaves and mages

[SeptimusMagistos]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

That's why I think Bioware handles romances worse than friendships. Part of what makes Dragon Age 2 romances well... like that is because those 'struggles' could have been avoided (I think). Fenris leaving? Merrill doing... something with a mirror? (I'm not sure since my character didn't romance anyone).

Honestly, if you don't have a problem with Merrill's research, she doesn't have a problem with you.

[legbamel]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

The conflict can be generated from an outward source; there doesn't necessarily have to be drama between two characters. 'Conflict' can also take many forms -- they may argue, or try to find a solution, but not necessarily turn unstable at some points and do something the other would completely disapprove of, only to make up.

That's why I think Bioware handles romances worse than friendships. Part of what makes Dragon Age 2 romances well... like that is because those 'struggles' could have been avoided (I think). Fenris leaving? Merrill doing... something with a mirror? (I'm not sure since my character didn't romance anyone).

I definitely agree with this, but BioWare lives to bring on the angst.  Putting obstacles in the way of your friendships and love life provides a great source of it.  Flipping your expectations 180 or ratcheting it up to full-on loss squeezes out the tears those writers need to live.  You wouldn't begrudge Evil Chris or Mr. Gaider their due wages, now would you? 

I'm a sucker for a sucker punch, when it comes to BioWare games.  Only give me fluff if you're going to use it to flog me later in the game. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Mostly I take issue with the notion that relationships without drama are inherently boring and/or unmemorable. I have no problem with there being a mix of relationship types, but I really don't want the writers to be allergic to anything that doesn't involve murder, kidnapping, rape, betrayal, mutilation, slavery, tranquility, possession, mass destruction, dramatic conflict etc in order to be artificially interesting.

[Plaintiff]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Well, I don't think Bioware is wrong. Stories do need drama and conflict. Even and perhaps especially romance. Let's face the facts, romance novels and films are not popular for their depiction of stable, healthy relationships. The stable, healthy relationship is the end goal. Once that point is reached, the romance story is over.

Judging from fan art and fan fiction communities, there does seem to be an unsatisfied need for drama-free, fluffy romance. Personally I do tend to go for whichever romance is the least dramatic and angsty and provides the most positive feelings. If I need conflict, I'll beat it out of some giant spiders.

Well, a lot of fanfiction is, to be blunt, porn. Or a one thousand word long set-up for a punchline of some kind. Drama would just get in the way of all the sex. Also, they're usually very short, rarely more than a few thousand words. Short fiction is not the same as a videogame or a novel, and has entirely different requirements.

There are plenty of works of fiction that display stable, healthy relationships, but in those stories the relationship itself is not the focus. Generally the couple is working together to overcome an external threat.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Plaintiff wrote...

There are plenty of works of fiction that display stable, healthy relationships, but in those stories the relationship itself is not the focus. Generally the couple is working together to overcome an external threat.

Which is sort of the case for the purposes of the Dragon Age Series anyway.

[Shadow Fox]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

That's why I think Bioware handles romances worse than friendships. Part of what makes Dragon Age 2 romances well... like that is because those 'struggles' could have been avoided (I think). Fenris leaving? Merrill doing... something with a mirror? (I'm not sure since my character didn't romance anyone).

Honestly, if you don't have a problem with Merrill's research, she doesn't have a problem with you.

Doesn't Varric have to remind her to eat  at one point?*been awhile since I played DA2*

[The Elder King]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

That's why I think Bioware handles romances worse than friendships. Part of what makes Dragon Age 2 romances well... like that is because those 'struggles' could have been avoided (I think). Fenris leaving? Merrill doing... something with a mirror? (I'm not sure since my character didn't romance anyone).

Honestly, if you don't have a problem with Merrill's research, she doesn't have a problem with you.

Doesn't Varric have to remind her to eat  at one point?*been awhile since I played DA2*

In a banter, yes. Though it's not that Merrill has a problem with Hawke. It's Hawke that is worried about her (if he's her friend).

[Plaintiff]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

There are plenty of works of fiction that display stable, healthy relationships, but in those stories the relationship itself is not the focus. Generally the couple is working together to overcome an external threat.

Which is sort of the case for the purposes of the Dragon Age Series anyway.

I never said it wasn't. As I said in my first post, I disagree with OP's notion that Varric doesn't have drama, or that characters with drama are unstable, or that relationships with them are unhealthy.

However, all the characters, romanceable or not, in both Dragon Age games have emotional baggage, which the player can choose to deal with or ignore. Engaging in a romance with a companion implies that you're prepared to help them carry their baggage. That is one of the responsibilities of a relationship.

And the main plot is not the only story in the game. Romance works more like a sidequest, so it needs its own story.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:45 .

[snackrat]

It is not necessarily a matter of 'story'. More a sense of drama. Yes, in romances, but friendships too.

Varric's 'story' is about Batrand and how he affected Hawke, Varric, and Sibling. However, Varric never says "We can never be friends, because Batrand is jealous."

Alistair's 'story' is about his bloodline, his sister, and his theoretical inheritance. However, that only becomes 'drama' in the final stages if you crown him without also crowning yourself (an option only available to female Cousland).

[Actually, side note: the arranged marriage Cousland/Therin makes SENSE. Cousland has been raised in court, is willing to lead, and is of nobility, even if love is not taken into account. Yet for some reason, despite being labeled 'arranged' there is no oppurtunity to do so. You must DUMP the surprise on him at the Landsmeet! Dialogue after implies he was going to propose, but if you do NOT surprise him, he actually breaks up with the PC. Hmmm....]

Modifié par Karsciyin, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:54 .

[sylvanaerie]

I like the idea of the PC's LI to be a comfort. The LI coming to comfort Hawke after Leandra's death is a good example. But tbh, my favorite convo concerning that was the one you have with Aveline (a non romanceable character). Also, Aveline's quest revolves around her having a life of her own, a love that isn't Hawke and trying to reach that goal was my favorite quest in the game (one I always save for a pick me up after Leandra is gone).

Varric was my favorite character because, for the most part he was a calm rock to my Hawke in the storm that was Kirkwall and all the crazies. He always had something interesting to say, was always supportive of his friends, and even his own personal quest had as much Hawke tied into it as Bartrand, since he felt Hawke may have been looking for some payback too.

I'm all for more stable relationships for DA3, in either their LI's or just in friends. DA2 did well with Varric and Aveline as supportive friends. The only romance in DA2 I truly enjoyed was Isabela since she experiences a lot of character growth in it, and she was (arguably) the sanest of the 4 options.

[Blackrising]

I don't mind drama at all (in fact, I enjoy a good punch in the gut), but only if I can be certain there will be moments of comfort later. It makes those little fluffy moments so much sweeter.
Granted, in-game moments of comfort are, at times, rare, but not impossible to find. For example, I found the relationship between Hawke and Merrill to be pretty fluffy. There was the drama (the Eluvian, Merrill being shunned, her clan dying...), but there were also a lot of moments I loved because they made me feel like Merrill was very supportive of Hawke.
Like when she asks how Hawke feels about Carver/Bethany. Or, which is my favourite moment, when Merrill tells Hawke and her mabari the story about the dread wolf. It was relatively early in their friendship, but I immediatly devised the headcanon that Hawke would ask Merrill to tell her a story whenever something was wrong. (Believe me, a LOT of nights were spent telling elven stories after Leandra was gone.)

Anyway, my point is: Moments of calm and comfort are important, but they do not always need to be explicitely shown. Just a mention in banter is fine and Bioware can concentrate on what they do best: trampel us beneath their boots and suck our tears.

[zeMadMonkey]

Drama makes the romance interesting and if there wasn't drama then it might be boring or it might not. Personally i feel as though drama is good so long as it is all the romance is. Like Anders how he was full of drama from mages and Fenris for his hatred of magic as how it is all they talk about. For Isabela i thought that was a alost perfect amount of drama as it didn't involve any of the worlds big issues invlolving magic and her drama was getting her to realise her love for Hawke. Also when it came down to it she would put aside her drama to comfort Hawke when Leandra died and didn't bring up her issues as the other did. If anything i would want more moments of drama with the LI's and ones where they put their issues aside just to comfort the PC.

Regarding non-romances I thought there stories were done very well and they didn't feel a need to bring up their issues in every conversation. When the time came for their quests that was a reasonable time to bring it up and that was the only time they brought their own drama into it like Isabela does. Varric is a like a brother and Aveline is like a sister to my Hawke so them being a romance would be weird and they didn't have an agenda which is why their drama wasn't brought up most of the time.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Doesn't Varric have to remind her to eat at one point?

Varric feels she was spending too much time in her house in that scene, because she faced a problem in her efforts to fully construct an Eluvian. Hawke and Merrill can have a dialogue where she can leave with him, although it wasn't really drama as much as Hawke (possibly) hearing out Merrill about her frustrations, and then leaving with him to get some air.

[Wulfram]

If Merrill's not romanced, then her Act 3 codex says

Merrill spends more and more of her time locked away in her house in the alienage with her mirror; she leaves only to buy food, which she does so rarely that Varric has taken to having produce delivered to her door.

But that doesn't apply if she's in a romance of course.

[robtheguru]

Personally i'd rather see more conflicts and drama. I mean if anything the whole thing is just stale at the minute. All you have to do is talk to someone and they are yours basically. I'd like to see something like, if you do not romance a certain character by a certain point, they start getting close to someone else. If you then choose to get involved with them, it can kick off a new squabble. I mean we've had the "choose one of us" thing in both DA and ME, but I think it'd be a good change to have something like this.

To be honest, interparty relations between NPC's on the whole would be welcome. It's not as if just the PC is going to be on the receiving end of admirers.

[Reikilea]

But people just love soap opera type of dramas.

Ad somethign like Skyrim? Wed someone the let them sit home, cook for you and manage the shop. I bet Aela and Vilkas loved being housewifes.

Well it was fun having my own housewife, but people just love soap opera type of dramas. Dramatic romances are better for building tension. And because Biiware was always about emotional connection to the characters I dont see hwo they can change it. And Bioware was always good in delivering us there kind of romances. I personaly like it, because it juts add more elements into the stor and makes it feel more complex. Drama is entertaining.

And then there is also bickering between fans who are torn between their favourite LI´s. What would we do if we were spared this.

Personaly in DA2 I only liked Anders romance.The drama in there was nicely presented ad fitted into he story. Adn that is enough for me.Still I woudl like if they worked on it more. It had som much potentional. Especially if your Hawke was mage.

Modifié par Reikilea, 07 janvier 2013 - 12:17 .

[Gazardiel]

Karsciyin wrote...

Yet Varric is (probably) the most universally loved character, in DA2 at least, simply because he is a point of 'calm' for Hawke. Hawke can go and hang out with Varric (as much as the dialogue will allow).(snip)

So my questions to you, BSN, is this:

• Do you prefer it this way? Do you want every friendship to have drama, conflict, in the name of story and development?
• Do you feel like friends should be there as a support, and only your rivals should have that conflict?
• Do you feel like the plot should be kept in the plot, rather than your relationships?
• ...or perhaps you want a mix and things warrent - all calm is boring, but all drama is exhausting. Take solace in some, but work with others?

• Is your an ideal romance of "We can't be together, I'm bad for you, we wouldn't work, now try and prove me wrong", like Fenris and Anders? Or do you prefer your PC to have a comfortable romance without the unneccesary flair, like Isabela? (Regardless of whether it starts casual and becomes more: Zevran/Morrigan, or was romantic to start with like Alistair.)

Good question! 

Overview: I like having more dynamic and tense relationships with companions/NPCs because it makes them feel more real.  I know for myself that I develop more of a connection and respect for people who challenge me and who work with me towards common goals (this is both IRL and in-game).  I want to hear what my friends have to say on matters, and if there is a difference of opinion, it is a good growing experience for everyone because we have to try to better understand each other.

To your questions: 

- I would prefer to have my relationship with companions be relevant to the game's story and plot.  I would argue that Varric's appeal is precisely because he is one of the few havens from the plotting and drama of Kirkwall; he would be less appreciated if everyone were more agreeable. I felt that Varric was specifically a support for my sarcastic!Hawke, since he never took offense and found the jokes amusing.  I could see him being less of a haven for the other Hawke personalities.

- If my companions primarily just supported me, they would feel less real; that said, there is room to make friend-companions a little more supportive at times.  But as with Varric, keeping those rationed would help those moments be more special. For example, it was nice that Aveline specifically talked to Hawke after the "All that remains" questline, but I'm glad that there wasn't a full-blown pity-party by everyone.  I also like the cutscenes before companion quests seeing them interacting with each other - those gave me some nice insights (like Isabela giving Merrill back her wagered item).

- I definitely want relationships to be responsive to plot events (maybe more than they are now); while a few small relationship-based threads would be okay, too many could make it feel like a soap opera or dating sim.  I'd prefer to hear more griping about past choices I made, in fact.

- I like romances where the characters involved grow and change; that can mean a rivalmance with Fenris, who acknowledges that we disagree a lot but have respect for each other, or a more gentle "licking the lampost in winter" with Alistair.  I haven't done a full romance with Zevran, but that too is interesting to me because you get to see him shift from casual to devoted.  So I like the variety available now. 

As for Anders, I felt like I was punched in the gut at the end of my first playthrough, and I love that I was immediately given a life-or-death choice on him.  I really struggled with that, and that to me is a sign of a level of engagement I don't normally see in games.