Okay, so in DA:O the sustained abilities were alright. They took up X amount of stamina/mana, and usually a percentage of fatigue. This makes sense: of course it will take stamina or mana to have an effect, and of course because it was sustained they had a part in fatigue.
Now, in DA ][ (otherwise know as DA Square Brackets), they got rid of fatigue, for whatever reason. As a result, they made the sustained abilities take up a percentage of mana/stamina.
Now, there's a very obvious problem with this: Mana/stamina increases, thus making the cost of the effect (a percentage) increase, while the actual output is the same. My rogue with Precision on only gets +10% crit chance, no matter how much stamina it's drawing. This is a problem.
There are two solutions:
1. Make the amount of effect increase as percentage increases. I personally prefer this one. This means my rogue with 100 stamina, with Precision drawing 10% of that (10 stamina) has a 10% crit chance, but my rogue with 150 stamina with the ability drawing 10% of that (15 stamina) has 15% crit chance.
Now, there's a very obvious problem here, in that the ability can become overpowered. I believe this could be countered by starting out the effects very low, like say 5% crit initially.
2. Return to X amount mana/stamina. This is probably the most realistic. If I learn to do something, it's not going to require more energy as I gain endurance.
Now, the problem with this one is that if an ability's only 20 stamina or something, you could stack about five of them. I believe this could be countered by limiting your number of max sustains on at once, which makes since: you can only do so many things at once. Say a max of three or four. Because if you really think about DA:O, if you had a supporter mage with sustains of Rock Armor, weapon buff of choice, Death Magic--just that would likely tax the brain enough to where a common spell would be difficult.
So, yeah. Those are my two options. If you have any others list them--but I really think the current system needs to go.
The Problem With Sustained Abilities!
Débuté par
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
, janv. 07 2013 03:23
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#2
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 03:32
In Exile
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Fatigue was useless in DA:O, though. It had some kick for warriors so as to not turn you into auto-attack machines, but because you always gained stamina at level-ups, even without willpower investments you eventually would get a solid amount of stamina to use abilities.
For mages fatigue was meaningless because of potion Spam.
In DA2, you don't get stamina on level up. Each point in will increases your overall pool, and even with the sustained on, you have more overall stamina available (90% of 100 is 90, but 90% of 200 is 180). The cost of abilities is fixed, so upgrading stamina still gives you more stamina to use overall. The cost (as %) doesn't increase at all. I'm not sure what you're taking about there.
For mages fatigue was meaningless because of potion Spam.
In DA2, you don't get stamina on level up. Each point in will increases your overall pool, and even with the sustained on, you have more overall stamina available (90% of 100 is 90, but 90% of 200 is 180). The cost of abilities is fixed, so upgrading stamina still gives you more stamina to use overall. The cost (as %) doesn't increase at all. I'm not sure what you're taking about there.
#3
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 03:36
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I never "potion spammed," except when it was, "cast spells or the whole team dies."
What I'm talking about is, my rogue enables Precision and gets +10% crit chance and it costs 10 stamina. But when my stamina has increased, say doubled, the ability now costs twice as much--but provides no more benefit.
What I'm talking about is, my rogue enables Precision and gets +10% crit chance and it costs 10 stamina. But when my stamina has increased, say doubled, the ability now costs twice as much--but provides no more benefit.
#4
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 03:50
Fast Jimmy
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As a correlary, what about a system with progressive cost in stamina/mana based on how many skills you have going at once?
If you have two skills going at once, the most expensive one (to prevent power-leveling the order in which you activate your skills) is charged an additional 5%. If you had a third skill going at once, it would be charged an additional 10%
Example:
Three skills all cost 10% mana/stamina (to keep math easy). If you activate one, it consumes the normal 10%. If you activate a second one, it also consumes 10% (bringing the total to 20%) but then also charges an additional 5% on top of that, now totaling 25%. If you then activate your third skill, it costs an additional 10% (bringing the total now to 35%) but since you have three active skills, you are charged an additional 10%, bringing the ceiling now up to 45%.
This wouldn't artificially limit the number of skills at once to a static number (like three or four) but it would also discourage stacking a ridiculous number of skills.
Just a suggestion.
If you have two skills going at once, the most expensive one (to prevent power-leveling the order in which you activate your skills) is charged an additional 5%. If you had a third skill going at once, it would be charged an additional 10%
Example:
Three skills all cost 10% mana/stamina (to keep math easy). If you activate one, it consumes the normal 10%. If you activate a second one, it also consumes 10% (bringing the total to 20%) but then also charges an additional 5% on top of that, now totaling 25%. If you then activate your third skill, it costs an additional 10% (bringing the total now to 35%) but since you have three active skills, you are charged an additional 10%, bringing the ceiling now up to 45%.
This wouldn't artificially limit the number of skills at once to a static number (like three or four) but it would also discourage stacking a ridiculous number of skills.
Just a suggestion.
#5
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 03:58
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EntropicAngel wrote...
I never "potion spammed," except when it was, "cast spells or the whole team dies."
Which is your choicet, but the mechanic was just a choice to willingly gimp yourself. It wasn't very useful. That's my point.
What I'm talking about is, my rogue enables Precision and gets +10% crit chance and it costs 10 stamina. But when my stamina has increased, say doubled, the ability now costs twice as much--but provides no more benefit.
But you misunderstand the cost. Ability costs are fixed. If you have 100 stamina, twin fangs costs 30 stamina and assasinate costs 40. Precision reduces your stamina to 90. You can use (without regen) each ability at most 2-3 times.
If you have 200 stamina, then precision reduces it to 180. But twin fang and assasinate cost the same. So now you can use each ability between 4-6 times without regen. The cost to you (of the ability) decreases as you increase your stamina/mana pool.
This is why I don't understand your point. Numerically, it's just not true.
Modifié par In Exile, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:58 .
#6
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 04:00
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Fast Jimmy wrote...
As a correlary, what about a system with progressive cost in stamina/mana based on how many skills you have going at once?
If you have two skills going at once, the most expensive one (to prevent power-leveling the order in which you activate your skills) is charged an additional 5%. If you had a third skill going at once, it would be charged an additional 10
The costs are a fixed %. So I assume you mean one where you have a set amount? This only is a worthwhile counter-balance if you overpower the abilities and still have actual growth in your stamina/HP per level, which DA2 didn't have.
#7
Guest_krul2k_*
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 04:06
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yeah what exile said, come the end of DA2 i can sustain quite a few abilities plus spam a few more an still have plenty of stamina/mana left come the end of a fight, only time i have problems is if im full mage support an sustaining alot of abilities at once
#8
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 06:58
Biotic Sage
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I see what you're saying by wanting a larger return for the effect of your sustained ability when it's taking up a larger value of mana/stamina (albeit the same percentage). You make a good point, but I will say that I hands down preferred the percentage cost of sustained abilities in DA2 to the ridiculous fatigue system in DA:O.
As for solutions to your dilemma here, I could see a lot of balancing issues occurring if they implemented either of your 2 fixes. For #1, people could invest heavily in their resource and then get overpowered god-mode from having a bunch of sustaineds active at once. For #2, in the early game it sustaineds would be way too costly and in the late game they would hardly make a dent. I'm pretty sure they have it the way they do in DA2 so you can't use 10 different sustained abilities at once. If they balance it correctly you should just be able to plan your build accordingly: knowing that you are only going to get that +10% precision or whatever and that the percentage cost regardless of your mana/stamina pool will remain the same. If that yield doesn't justify the opportunity cost for you then you should just ignore that sustained ability.
As for solutions to your dilemma here, I could see a lot of balancing issues occurring if they implemented either of your 2 fixes. For #1, people could invest heavily in their resource and then get overpowered god-mode from having a bunch of sustaineds active at once. For #2, in the early game it sustaineds would be way too costly and in the late game they would hardly make a dent. I'm pretty sure they have it the way they do in DA2 so you can't use 10 different sustained abilities at once. If they balance it correctly you should just be able to plan your build accordingly: knowing that you are only going to get that +10% precision or whatever and that the percentage cost regardless of your mana/stamina pool will remain the same. If that yield doesn't justify the opportunity cost for you then you should just ignore that sustained ability.
Modifié par Biotic Sage, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:58 .
#9
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 07:17
Celene II
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I think they should just move away from sustained abilities all together.
Oh look my class has 14 sustained abilities and yet i can only activate maybe 3 or 4 at top so thats a waste of 10 abilities.
More active
WAY more passives.
Make the sustained abilities at the end of a tree and make them strong but make them few.
Oh look my class has 14 sustained abilities and yet i can only activate maybe 3 or 4 at top so thats a waste of 10 abilities.
More active
WAY more passives.
Make the sustained abilities at the end of a tree and make them strong but make them few.
#10
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 07:26
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The percentage system does make it more complicated to consider the exact value of a point of willpower or +x amount of mana/stamina, when you may actually only be getting a bonus of, say, half that much, because half is eaten up by the percentage sustain. It would be nice if sustainables were more powerful to justify eating more stamina.
Personally I think it'd be really neat if you could specify how much mana you want to use for every spell and sustainable, and their effects would scale up accordingly. This would make willpower a lot more useful because it would affect the maximum damage you could achieve if for whatever reason you wanted an all-out 5000 mana nuclear fireball.
Personally I think it'd be really neat if you could specify how much mana you want to use for every spell and sustainable, and their effects would scale up accordingly. This would make willpower a lot more useful because it would affect the maximum damage you could achieve if for whatever reason you wanted an all-out 5000 mana nuclear fireball.
#11
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 10:41
Wulfram
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I'm basically OK with the system in DA2.
Though Willpower could perhaps do with a buff, since the way sustains work makes it less attractive than it would otherwise be. And I felt that Tanky fighters and maybe a few other builds had too much of their bar taken up by sustains. Also, I don't think the spirit healer sustain should have been so expensive when it's already stopping you from blowing stuff up, but I'm getting a bit specific there.
And maybe there might be a place for talents that allow you to use up X percent worth of sustains for free?
Though Willpower could perhaps do with a buff, since the way sustains work makes it less attractive than it would otherwise be. And I felt that Tanky fighters and maybe a few other builds had too much of their bar taken up by sustains. Also, I don't think the spirit healer sustain should have been so expensive when it's already stopping you from blowing stuff up, but I'm getting a bit specific there.
And maybe there might be a place for talents that allow you to use up X percent worth of sustains for free?
Modifié par Wulfram, 07 janvier 2013 - 10:41 .
#12
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 10:43
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Other than the sustained abilities required to cast certain spells (spirit healer, blood mage, etc), I'm not really a fan of them in general. For the most part, if I have a sustained ability that is a significant buff for the whole group (heroic aura), it doesn't make much sense to disable it EVER even if I need to get back a small amount of mana or stamina to use some other ability. Losing the buff for the entire party seems like a greater total loss than whatever paltry gain I might have of one skill, unless it is an emergency and my mana/stamina pots are on cooldown.
To my mind, if you have a sustained ability that is always active, there is really no tactical reason for it being a sustained ability. If heroic aura was an activated buff similar to haste, I think it would be much more valuable, particularly on boss fights, as you would have to choose a good time to use it. Killing those little rock adds during the Ancient Rock Wraith fight would be a bad time to use either of those as activated buffs, since they're largely wasted on killing insignificant mobs, similarly while you are standing behind a pillar waiting for the AoE to be over.
I would like the sustained abilities to be spec based activation requirements, with the addition of a passive buff for the person who has it. Having it that way also forces us to bring the person, and not their buff, reducing the significance of any one person if they should happen to fall in battle. I don't feel that your mage should be valued more than your rogue simply because the mage has heroic aura.
To my mind, if you have a sustained ability that is always active, there is really no tactical reason for it being a sustained ability. If heroic aura was an activated buff similar to haste, I think it would be much more valuable, particularly on boss fights, as you would have to choose a good time to use it. Killing those little rock adds during the Ancient Rock Wraith fight would be a bad time to use either of those as activated buffs, since they're largely wasted on killing insignificant mobs, similarly while you are standing behind a pillar waiting for the AoE to be over.
I would like the sustained abilities to be spec based activation requirements, with the addition of a passive buff for the person who has it. Having it that way also forces us to bring the person, and not their buff, reducing the significance of any one person if they should happen to fall in battle. I don't feel that your mage should be valued more than your rogue simply because the mage has heroic aura.
#13
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 01:25
Gazardiel
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To play Devil's Advocate, the percentage cost for sustained abilities appears to be a way to scale with the benefit you get from the ability. In your example of a +10% crit chance, that percentage scales with your character's base crit chance, which is probably going to go up over the course of the game, giving you more return on that ability. Therefore, it seems only fair to scale the cost along with the returns.
#14
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 01:48
Fast Jimmy
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^
This makes sense with the way the DA games have handled their Attributes previously. Pumping Cunning increases your Crit Chance, so adding 10% to that later in the game versus later in the game would offer more value and, hence, could theoretically cost more to get the "same" benefit.
I'd like them switch to a more static Attributes model, personally. I would also like to see less Sustained abilities and more Activated ones, as discussed by nightscrawl above. Any Sustained ability is going to come at the risk of making another Sustainee ability "not make the cut" which means it is worthless going forward. The less worthless skills or spells, the better and more efficient the system is.
This makes sense with the way the DA games have handled their Attributes previously. Pumping Cunning increases your Crit Chance, so adding 10% to that later in the game versus later in the game would offer more value and, hence, could theoretically cost more to get the "same" benefit.
I'd like them switch to a more static Attributes model, personally. I would also like to see less Sustained abilities and more Activated ones, as discussed by nightscrawl above. Any Sustained ability is going to come at the risk of making another Sustainee ability "not make the cut" which means it is worthless going forward. The less worthless skills or spells, the better and more efficient the system is.
#15
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 02:03
Maria Caliban
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EntropicAngel wrote...
Now, in DA ][ (otherwise know as DA Square Brackets), they got rid of fatigue, for whatever reason. As a result, they made the sustained abilities take up a percentage of mana/stamina.
Now, there's a very obvious problem with this: Mana/stamina increases, thus making the cost of the effect (a percentage) increase, while the actual output is the same. My rogue with Precision on only gets +10% crit chance, no matter how much stamina it's drawing. This is a problem.
I'm not sure it's a problem. The ability takes a static percentage of your total amount so there's a limit to the number of sustained abilities you can stack.
It doesn't negate the usefulness of increasing your stamina or mana though because you still end up with more free mana for your spells.
#16
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 02:16
Gazardiel
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nightscrawl wrote...
To my mind, if you have a sustained ability that is always active, there is really no tactical reason for it being a sustained ability. If heroic aura was an activated buff similar to haste, I think it would be much more valuable, particularly on boss fights, as you would have to choose a good time to use it. Killing those little rock adds during the Ancient Rock Wraith fight would be a bad time to use either of those as activated buffs, since they're largely wasted on killing insignificant mobs, similarly while you are standing behind a pillar waiting for the AoE to be over.
I suspect that sustained abilities may partly have been a mechanic to force a choice between different modes - Precision vs. Speed, Control vs. Might, etc. Those wouldn't be as well represented by activated abilities, and I found that they tended to serve almost an identity feature - I would "identify" Fenris with Might or Varric with Speed because i used them in those modes.
Another mechanics reason could be that having sustained abilities reduced the number of simultaneous activations you would try to do. I found that I often "forget" to activate Pinpoint Strikes or Cleave because they're like short-term modes rather than abilities, and if I need to kill something quickly, I go for a one-shot ability (Assassinate) instead.
It would be interesting to change this up to have sustained abilities be more party-affecting; maybe there could be a third type of ability that these "personal buff" ones could be worked as in DA3.
#17
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 02:19
philippe willaume
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I totally agree with nightscrawl and FJ.
I might add that i would like sustained ability to be more tactically oriented (either making taking advantage of terrain or setting cross-class combo or talent combo).
phil
I might add that i would like sustained ability to be more tactically oriented (either making taking advantage of terrain or setting cross-class combo or talent combo).
phil
#18
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 02:23
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
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Fast Jimmy wrote...
As a correlary, what about a system with progressive cost in stamina/mana based on how many skills you have going at once?
If you have two skills going at once, the most expensive one (to prevent power-leveling the order in which you activate your skills) is charged an additional 5%. If you had a third skill going at once, it would be charged an additional 10%
Example:
Three skills all cost 10% mana/stamina (to keep math easy). If you activate one, it consumes the normal 10%. If you activate a second one, it also consumes 10% (bringing the total to 20%) but then also charges an additional 5% on top of that, now totaling 25%. If you then activate your third skill, it costs an additional 10% (bringing the total now to 35%) but since you have three active skills, you are charged an additional 10%, bringing the ceiling now up to 45%.
This wouldn't artificially limit the number of skills at once to a static number (like three or four) but it would also discourage stacking a ridiculous number of skills.
Just a suggestion.
This sounds excellent.
In Exile wrote...
But you misunderstand the cost. Ability costs are fixed. If you have 100 stamina, twin fangs costs 30 stamina and assasinate costs 40. Precision reduces your stamina to 90. You can use (without regen) each ability at most 2-3 times.
If you have 200 stamina, then precision reduces it to 180. But twin fang and assasinate cost the same. So now you can use each ability between 4-6 times without regen. The cost to you (of the ability) decreases as you increase your stamina/mana pool.
This is why I don't understand your point. Numerically, it's just not true.
The cost of the aility does not decrease.
You're looking at the size of your stamina/mana pool, not the cost of the ability.
The fact is, with an ability that is percentage based, it's actual cost increases. It's effect on your stamina pool may not increase, but that's not what I'm talking about here--the actual cost of the ability does increase.
#19
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 07 janvier 2013 - 02:27
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Read through the thread, I can see the viewpoints offered, it just bugs me, that's all.
#20
Posté 08 janvier 2013 - 12:02
PsychoBlonde
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Another problem with the percentage method is that you get less benefit from investing in willpower to raise your mana/stamina, to the point where I never put points in it even on a mage. You were always better raising your magic to get more damage and more effect off your spells.
This is a very interesting idea, and one I hadn't thought of. You could get some really good tradeoffs going and this would be a really good reason for Rogues/Warriors to actually invest some points in willpower. I'm all for giving the classes reasons to invest in other abilities, so I like this thought.
Granted, this has the problem that as you get more mana/stamina, the sustained cost becomes trivial.
Titan Quest had a system very similar to DA2 that worked pretty well, but a given character generally wouldn't have 5 or more modal abilities. Plus, there were abilities that drained mana constantly while they were active. So if you also wanted to cast spells, you wanted to balance carefully your mana regen rate vs. how many draining abilities you had and how many spells you were casting how quickly.
It seems that a multi-tiered solution instead of the single-tier ones you've suggested might be in order. Firstly, I really like the idea of having some abilities use a percentage but be more powerful based on what that percentage is. That is a neat idea. What you could do is simply have it be that you NEVER get more mana/stamina unless you invest in willpower. So now you have a question--do I raise, say, Dex and get more of what comes from high dex, or do I raise willpower and buff ALL of my sustained abilities a tiny bit as well as letting me use my active ones more often? That's a tradeoff. Tradeoffs can be tuned. So the overpowered thing isn't really a big issue.
Next, let's look at regen. I didn't much like the system from DA2 where warriors and rogues regenerated stamina by attacking because they just never ran out. They may as well have gotten rid of the entire stamina bar. I like more the idea that your regen rate is based off a stat, maybe willpower again, even. (Willpower is probably the most underutilized stat in the game for all classes).
Or there are other options--give you limited slots for sustained abilities, and you have to do something (raise willpower, unlock slots by finding tomes, I dunno) in order to get more slots.
I do think it can be significantly refined though.
EntropicAngel wrote...
1. Make the amount of effect increase as percentage increases. I personally prefer this one. This means my rogue with 100 stamina, with Precision drawing 10% of that (10 stamina) has a 10% crit chance, but my rogue with 150 stamina with the ability drawing 10% of that (15 stamina) has 15% crit chance.
This is a very interesting idea, and one I hadn't thought of. You could get some really good tradeoffs going and this would be a really good reason for Rogues/Warriors to actually invest some points in willpower. I'm all for giving the classes reasons to invest in other abilities, so I like this thought.
2. Return to X amount mana/stamina. This is probably the most realistic. If I learn to do something, it's not going to require more energy as I gain endurance.
Granted, this has the problem that as you get more mana/stamina, the sustained cost becomes trivial.
Titan Quest had a system very similar to DA2 that worked pretty well, but a given character generally wouldn't have 5 or more modal abilities. Plus, there were abilities that drained mana constantly while they were active. So if you also wanted to cast spells, you wanted to balance carefully your mana regen rate vs. how many draining abilities you had and how many spells you were casting how quickly.
It seems that a multi-tiered solution instead of the single-tier ones you've suggested might be in order. Firstly, I really like the idea of having some abilities use a percentage but be more powerful based on what that percentage is. That is a neat idea. What you could do is simply have it be that you NEVER get more mana/stamina unless you invest in willpower. So now you have a question--do I raise, say, Dex and get more of what comes from high dex, or do I raise willpower and buff ALL of my sustained abilities a tiny bit as well as letting me use my active ones more often? That's a tradeoff. Tradeoffs can be tuned. So the overpowered thing isn't really a big issue.
Next, let's look at regen. I didn't much like the system from DA2 where warriors and rogues regenerated stamina by attacking because they just never ran out. They may as well have gotten rid of the entire stamina bar. I like more the idea that your regen rate is based off a stat, maybe willpower again, even. (Willpower is probably the most underutilized stat in the game for all classes).
Or there are other options--give you limited slots for sustained abilities, and you have to do something (raise willpower, unlock slots by finding tomes, I dunno) in order to get more slots.
I do think it can be significantly refined though.
#21
Posté 08 janvier 2013 - 12:27
Pzykozis
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EntropicAngel wrote...
The cost of the aility does not decrease.
You're looking at the size of your stamina/mana pool, not the cost of the ability.
The fact is, with an ability that is percentage based, it's actual cost increases. It's effect on your stamina pool may not increase, but that's not what I'm talking about here--the actual cost of the ability does increase.
It effectively does though, the actual percentage cost is static however the overall impact of the percentage cost decreases as stamina increases.
the only real problem with static percentage costs are the devaluing of increasing willpower since you get less return on an already fairly low return stat, however it does stop the player from being able to stack loads of sustaineds and ascending to godhood.
Personally I'd prefer the sustained to be a matter of specialisation wherein there is a permanant defining choice, the 'sustained's then become passive rather than needing to be sustained since the whole 'sustained'ness is kinda pointless.
#22
Posté 08 janvier 2013 - 11:48
Alias Oddvar
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Hm persentage cost is ok, as most of the bonuses are persentage based.
Still i think they should put a limit on the number of sustained abilities a character can have. Otherwise you will have builds that ignore active abilites if the sustained abilities are good enough.
Willpower does have the problem of becomeing useless after enough points. You might want to add late game abilities that boost talent/spell efficiency at the cost of more mana/stamina.
Still i think they should put a limit on the number of sustained abilities a character can have. Otherwise you will have builds that ignore active abilites if the sustained abilities are good enough.
Willpower does have the problem of becomeing useless after enough points. You might want to add late game abilities that boost talent/spell efficiency at the cost of more mana/stamina.
