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[Enhanced]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Are there really still some people that just can't accept that fact that he isn't lying, even though Bioware released 2 DLCs that support the Catalyst's words?

What 2 DLCs do that?  Leviathan doesn't.  If Leviathan had created the crucible it might be believable, but Leviathan didn't.  Who created the plans for the crucible?  And why do the 3 choices exist in a place that is part of the catalyst-who put them there?   Answer those questions with proof that someone other than the kid created all of this, and he isn't lying.  If you can't answer all that, then there's a good chance that he is.  Again, indoctrination is used to deceive people.  TIM, Saren, Benezia, indoctrinated Protheans, and many more were all deceived using indoctrination.  So why is it so hard to believe that the kid is not lying?  Or that Shepard would not logically think that's possible.  I don't care what the slides show-they were meant to make people "feel" better, but are laughable and do not show true consequences to anything.

Leviathan makes the whole situation even more ridiculous.  Leviathan enthralls organics and then does a poor job at it, so these enthralled races create synthetics that kill people.  In order to stop synthetics from killing people, Leviathan (that controlled organics that it wants to keep from being killed) creates a synthetic that has no controls to keep it from killing organics and it kills Leviathan.  It then begins killing organics.  Yeah, Leviathan really helped make the kid more believable.  It actually made the reapers even less believable.

Sorry but like them or not, the events in the Extended cut and Leviathan DLCs are officially part of the game, and prove that he didn't lie to Shepard about his purpose, or the Crucible's function and capabilities.

Modifié par Enhanced, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:29 .

[Vortex13]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

@OP

People like predictable, expected plots in vidyagames. We're not exactly a higher form of literature, are we? So we can't pull literary evolution out of the bag. Thus, if the reapers have used indoctrination to their end, then everything they do much be deception. It's the reason television writers are afraid to make one-dimensional villains in shows anything more than that, Gul Dukat from Deep Space 9 being a prime example.

People like one dimensional, they like boring, they like everything to make sense in the simplest ways. It's binary thinking. So the reapers are BAD, they are ZERO, they use X to achieve Y. The alliance is GOOD, they are ONE, they don't use X to achieve Y. Therefore, the reapers are always, invariably BAD, and the reapers always use X to achieve Y. It's the kind of thinking that results in all manner of bad mindsets; in this case, xenophobia.

Honestly? I'm of a mindset that the reapers aren't at all evil, just misguided. I've used this argument before and I'll use it again - If you had been in a war and suffered an injury that left you in a coma, and a race of godlike beings came along and offered you the chance to live out a llife that was as long as you wanted, in a utopia of fun and adventure, with many other species, in an environment where empathy was standard; after what you'd seen, would you turn them down?

The only fault the reapers made was that they made it non-negotiable, harvesting wasn't optional. That was a logical error made by the catalyst at the time, but once things had been set in motion, the catalyst might have come up with other possible solutions, but it might not have been able to act upon them. Synthesis could be a solution by design of the catalyst, not the crucible. Simply that the crucible gave the catalyst the ability to 'change a decision that was once set in stone.'

It just needed to understand what it needed to offer to organics and synthetics in order for them to be able to co-exist, so for that Shepard made the ultimate sacrifice, so that the caatalyst could take him apart and see how he ticked. From that, they offered the ability to upgrade and to opt into a networked overmind (likely with feelings shared by default, and thoughts shared optionally), and they added empathy to the hardware and code of synthetics, to allow them to comprehend these feelings.

So I don't think there was any deception involved at all. It was just a bad situation created by the leviathans and their arrogance. I actually figured that a race like the leviathans were responsible even before the so-named DLC, to me, that was rather obvious. You had a race that was doing a bad job at managing the galaxy, so they created curators to do it for them.

Anyway, those are my feelings on the matter. I don't get any deception from the reapers at all, except for that which they use to get people into their virtual, safe environments. The conclusion of the reapers is that every moment more they spend in reality, is a moment longer they're in danger. So the quicker their minds are harvested (via spikes, the tiny bugs, or whatever other means), the quicker the reapers can protect them.

I really don't think that Mass Effect is a tale of evil. It's a tale of arrogance and stupidity; and quite a good cautionary tale to boot.

Your whole premise is wrong and thanks for implying that we are all bland idiots that like simplistic stories.  No we don't.  The reapers were far more nuanced and even amazing as mysterious, unknowable, autonomous beings.  They became moronic with the existence of the kid.  They were dumbed down.  That didn't make them multi-dimensional, it turned them into mindless objects or pawns.  And sorry if I have no desire to become friends with abominations that have been created using people goo.

The reapers didn't make things non-negotiable, they didn't do anything.  They were forced to do all that they did.  The kid says it, they are now at the end of ME3, like a mindless cleansing fire.  The fire doesn't feel anything, doesn't think anything, and destroys all in its path, so it can't be reasoned with or talked to.  And the kid is the arsonist holding the blowtorch.

And you don't see indoctrination as any kind of deception.  You make it all sound so wonderful-really the reapers only mean to do good.  Sorry if that includes squeezing the goo out of your kids, but they meant well.  Really?  So, if some mentally ill person walks into your house with a machete it's ok for him to slice through everyone, as long as he has no evil intent?  Maybe he thinks he's sending everyone to God, to save them-is that ok, then?  

I have really no idea what that all was about being in a coma and being rescued-how does that at all apply?  The people that are put into the reapers are not suffering until the reapers come along and cause the suffering.


And no, people are not thinking the Alliance is good and all, in fact the BSN is full of people that take exception to ME3's sudden shift to being human-centric and Earth-centric, and plenty of criticism for Hackett and how BW shows him.

Also, evil is often an issue of perspective and behavior.  The kid and the reapers do what any rational person or any person that existed with them would see as evil.  The act is evil, even if the intent is not.  From my perspective, if you want to kill my family and gooify them, you are evil, even if you think you are helping.  I don't care what your motives are, I want you gone.  Especially if you persist in attempting to kill my family.  And I don't care if you carry around jam jars and a hard-drive and tell people you aren't killing anyone, but are preserving them by putting their memories on the hard-drive and their goo in the jam jars.  It's killing from my perspective and for people the only perspective that counts is their own in this regard.  

The reapers are basically eating people and making new reapers in the process-so that means they must keep doing this to make more reapers, to ensure their existence.  So, sorry if I don't want skyscraper sized dumbed down doofuses controlled by a truly flawed AI, flying around and friending me on Facebook.  Never mind about the fate of the reaper variants.  Just imagine if that was someone you knew-"hey Bob you need to put on a little weight, you're just skin and bones-no actually you're just synthetic parts and stuff with goo hanging off of you."

Actually we wanted something that was rational and that fit the story, keeping the reapers as real even if arrogant foes.  They were far more interesting.  And the idea that some of the greatness in the other stories in the game are just forgotten at the end and not even relevant, is horrid.  The geth story was multi-dimensional and at the heart of what the kid says is the problem.  The idea is that synthetics will always kill, but the geth showed that that need not happen-they stopped and had remorse.  This was a great story.  And along with that that all people could perhaps find a way to work together to forge their own future.  All of that is squashed with two idiotic words, "wake up".  No please, I'd like to go back to sleep.

I agree with this. The Reapers as a whole were far more interesting and terrifying as individual, arrogent beings that viewed themselves as above and beyond the lesser races of the galaxy.

Not the mindless RC drones of the Catalyst.

[Epique Phael767]

Reaper AI... Doesn't that answer your question, OP?

[3DandBeyond]

alleyd wrote...

i think there is obviously some form of deception and manipulation during the end game meeting with the Catalyst.
There is only one occasion where he speaks with his true voice and you see the mask slip. You choose to reject the endings presented and our friendly little glowboy suddenly sounds like Barry white with a throat problem.
The Catalyst could have selected any form to communicate its message to Shepard. The persona the Catalyst chose is grade school manipulation. By adopting the image of a human child to generate empathy with Shepard. It's one of the central instincts that most humans possess to nurture and protect a child.

Yep at the core of deception-a wolf in sheep's clothing or do few remember the lesson there.  The kid is deception.  Thanks, alleyd for reminding me of the most obvious example of that.

The "so be it" reveals the catalyst as he truly is and he's plenty angry that you won't make a choice-that means any choice would work for him.  But even before that he says he is the reaper controller and yet he wants to appear non-threatening.  And it's funny how many on the BSN are ready to oblige this deceit.

The point here is that there's no reason to believe the kid-no reason for Shepard to, nothing compelling to cause Shepard to have faith in what the kid says.  And the explanation of the choices casts more doubt as does the "logic" behind making a choice.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:55 .

[3DandBeyond]

Enhanced wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Are there really still some people that just can't accept that fact that he isn't lying, even though Bioware released 2 DLCs that support the Catalyst's words?

What 2 DLCs do that?  Leviathan doesn't.  If Leviathan had created the crucible it might be believable, but Leviathan didn't.  Who created the plans for the crucible?  And why do the 3 choices exist in a place that is part of the catalyst-who put them there?   Answer those questions with proof that someone other than the kid created all of this, and he isn't lying.  If you can't answer all that, then there's a good chance that he is.  Again, indoctrination is used to deceive people.  TIM, Saren, Benezia, indoctrinated Protheans, and many more were all deceived using indoctrination.  So why is it so hard to believe that the kid is not lying?  Or that Shepard would not logically think that's possible.  I don't care what the slides show-they were meant to make people "feel" better, but are laughable and do not show true consequences to anything.

Leviathan makes the whole situation even more ridiculous.  Leviathan enthralls organics and then does a poor job at it, so these enthralled races create synthetics that kill people.  In order to stop synthetics from killing people, Leviathan (that controlled organics that it wants to keep from being killed) creates a synthetic that has no controls to keep it from killing organics and it kills Leviathan.  It then begins killing organics.  Yeah, Leviathan really helped make the kid more believable.  It actually made the reapers even less believable.

Sorry but like them or not, the events in the Extended cut and Leviathan DLCs are officially part of the game, and prove that he didn't lie to Shepard about his purpose, or the Crucible's function and capabilities.

Leviathan only sets about to make it clear there's something controlling the reapers-it doesn't give anything the kid says validity.  Nor does the EC at all.  You have no proof that would make Shepard want to believe the kid.  You have no idea who created the crucible plans.  Shepard says it could be dangerous to set off if you don't know what it will do and yet, no one does know what it will do, except for glow boy.  And he's killing people that Shepard is trying to save.  To believe your enemy when he tells you that you must commit suicide to solve his problem is one of the stupidest situations I have ever seen in a game or read in a story or seen in a movie.  This thing has been turning people into goo.  He contradicts himself.  And even if he's telling the complete unvarnished truth and fully believes he's there to help, so what?   He's a mess.  His creators are idiots and can't help but to have made an AI (artificial idiot).

[3DandBeyond]

alleyd wrote...

Re Leviathan only serves one purpose for me, to correct the mistake in killing off the Reapers and to reboot them in a slightly different form. The reapers in the earlier games were a far more exciting villain than mere tools of a highly dubious villain that was thrust into the series without adequate foreshadowing. That's only my opinion though.

Were the ending has worked is that it has generated more controversy than any other I can remember. It's encouraged debate and generated a passionate response from its introduction. It serves its masters Bioware well in that function.

The only real good to have come from the ending is the discussion with people here, that agree or not.

Leviathan is sorry, an ass pull.  It exists because people consistently complained (rightly so) about the lack of foreshadowing for the kid as the AI.  It was to help something that already existed to work for those who had yet to play ME3 and does not help a great many who'd already played the game to the end.  The kid was an inserted, trumped up, incoherent mess that in no way fits with the main stories that exist in the game.  It isn't just that the kid ignores the important stories in 3 games or the relevant stories-it's that Shepard does.

Leviathan does nothing to make the kid sound any smarter or to make the choices any better-in many ways it makes it all worse.

[GHNR]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indoctrination, by definiton, is willingly aligning yourself with the Reapers' goals.

Starchild is the leader of the Reapers, he tells you this.

Starchild's goal is Synthesis, he tells you this.


Therefore, regardless of Bioware's intention and regardless of the Indoctrination Theory, by choosing Synthesis, you have become indoctrinated.

This is a fact.

No....

You'd be indoctrinated if you cast yourself over the pit and decided not to pick any of the three endings, thus allowing the Reapers to complete there harvest.

This is a fact.

[CoolioThane]

The "AI" at the end has access to Shepard's mind. You'd be an idiot to not think he could be deceiving you.

[ElSuperGecko]

CoolioThane wrote...
The "AI" at the end has access to Shepard's mind. You'd be an idiot to not think he could be deceiving you.

"YOUR MEMORIES GIVE VOICE TO OUR WORDS...."

[umadcommander]

he takes the form of a child, thats a little odd for the reapers intelligence unless it wants to make you at least a little more trusting

[Auintus]

umadcommander wrote...

he takes the form of a child, thats a little odd for the reapers intelligence unless it wants to make you at least a little more trusting

The AI has no form of its own, so it grabs something off the top of Shep's head. Needs a form to communicate with, after all.

[Keatstwo]

Every time I want somebody to trust me I'm actually lying to them. Flawless logic. Maybe he just wants you to trust him because he wants you to help him action a better solution to the problem? Hell, he TELLS you right off the bat that he created and controls the reapers, if he really wanted to trick you why would he tell you that?

[Priss Blackburne]

I don't see the endings as

Destroy
Control
Synthesis

I see the endings as

Agree with Anderson (cutscene showing Anderson)
Agree with the Illusive Man (cutscene showing Illusive man )
Agree with the Reapers (no cutscene just closeups of the Catalyst)

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 07 janvier 2013 - 08:57 .

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...


Leviathan only sets about to make it clear there's something controlling the reapers-it doesn't give anything the kid says validity.  Nor does the EC at all. 

You mean the EC material before Shepard acts, right?

[Redbelle]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

 The extended endings show that the reaper AI did infact speak the truth. Why are some people hellbent on still saying that the reaper AI is deceiving you to take control or Synthesis?

Control ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Synthesis ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Destroy only resets everything and puts the galaxy back to square one.

Some people say the Reaper AI is trying to "manipulate" you into going anything but destroy, but he is merely giving advice - and with good reason. Controlling the Reapers and Synthesis both leads to good endings. Only bad ending is destroy imo, with this - the galaxy has no ensurance against further war or synthetics as a new threat later on. 

Also bear in mind that the reapers arent evil. They did what they were programmed to do. They dont take pleasure or grievance in destroying civilizations. In their eyes they are the guardians of the universe, and races "destroyed" are actually kept "alive" through reapers. 

The reaper AI has no motivations or malevolent intent. And Control and Synthesis leads to positive outcomes. The "Shepards mission to destroy the reapers" argument for taking destroy is narrowminded and short sighted imo.

As it stands, the reaper AI spoke the truth. Whats with the people saying he deceives and tries to manipulate you? He didnt. And destroy ending still stays as the least good ending imo. Choosing destroy is something I imagine a selfish and childish renegade I-want-revenge Shepard would pick.

The Catalyst is the hive mind of the Reaper's

The Reaper's have comitted galactic genocide for a span of time only the Catalyst could tell you. (But doesn't).

The Reaper's, regardless of a sudden change of heart and a look to Shepard to be their Messiah. Have. An. Agenda!

The mission of ME, from 1 to 2 through to the last ten minute's of 3, is to repel an immovable, unstoppable enemy, who is less a species as a force of nature. With an computer brain AI that tried to add 2 + 2 and came up with 7. (Think G0-T0 from KOTOR2 on a cocktail of happy pill's and steroids).

Now think who your Shepard is. The Shepard who is not a roleplay option but an extention of your personal viewpoint's when faced with a choice. Do you choose to take the advice of your enemy to further it's own agenda........

Control and Synth seem pretty far up it's priority list, but destroy, to reference the above, is a selfish and childish response onthe part of the Catalyst, whose decision to destroy all synthetic life and not permit the possibility of saving EDI or geth is, 'You can get rid of me but I'll destroy all the progress you've made getting along with Synth's and put you back onto the road of org/synth conflict'.

Of cause the Cat is deceiving Shepard. It doesn't want peace with Org's and Synth's. It want's to alter people to what it's little computer brain has decided, is the best solution to the problem.

So what if some race create's another AI of Catalyst design who take's an entirely different view from the first Catalyst? It'll be the same story all over again. Better to just pull the plug and be rid of it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Crucible: What is it? Who created it? What is its purpose? Is it a test?

* the catalyst now tells us it is a battery.

* you wouldn't know them and there isn't time. We thought the design was eradicated several cycles ago. Clearly organics are more resourceful than we realized.

* well he doesn't explain this but he says it changes him, and opens new possibilities.

* interesting.

Is anyone's bulls*** meter going off? The Protheans built the thing, and had it completed except they couldn't find the catalyst. They never used it. It is simple in design, uses a lot of resources, and we found the critical components scattered about in the galaxy, like an Easter egg hunt. I found the last part quite interesting. Why weren't they destroyed by the reapers if they were so intent on destroying the design unless they wanted us to build it in the first place, and this thing was a test to see when we organics could help solve the genocidal starbrat's problem.  And what was that? Synthesis. Of course it was designed by the reapers.

It says: We've tried it several times before, and it has failed. It is not something that can be forced. But you can make it work. You are ready. You can rewrite all organic and synthetic life if you want. The cycle will end. It is our.. I mean THE ideal solution. Please do this and jump into the beam. For me? Please? We're sorry we packed quadrillions of lives into these machines over the past billion years. It had to be done, even if it didn't really work. It was only a stop gap measure. You'll forgive us won't you? But this? This solves the equation.

You know if you choose control you'll just have to wait for another to get here and choose this, don't you? And if you destroy us, the cycle will just start again from the beginning, right? Now, just start walking down that plank and jump into the beam. It's really simple. Your time is running out. Please hurry. You're thinking about this. I can hear you. Stop it!

The theme for the scene

1) possible genocide - unless the Quarians did in the Geth
2) galactic police state
3) genetic rewrite of the entire galaxy
4) refusal where you hear the true nature. He appears as a child to gain your sympathy.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 07 janvier 2013 - 09:44 .

[3DandBeyond]

Auintus wrote...

umadcommander wrote...

he takes the form of a child, thats a little odd for the reapers intelligence unless it wants to make you at least a little more trusting

The AI has no form of its own, so it grabs something off the top of Shep's head. Needs a form to communicate with, after all.

Uh, it has a lot to choose from and the kid is on the top of Shepard's thoughts?  How about Anderson who just died?  Or even TIM or the LI, someone that Shepard constantly thought about?  The kid is used to directly appeal to us and to Shepard and make the AI far more "trustworthy".  Or the AI would use a reaper form or look like a toolbox or a shoe.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 janvier 2013 - 10:04 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

I don't see the endings as

Destroy
Control
Synthesis

I see the endings as

Agree with Anderson (cutscene showing Anderson)
Agree with the Illusive Man (cutscene showing Illusive man )
Agree with the Reapers (no cutscene just closeups of the Catalyst)

(a) Anderson doesn't know that even well-meaning, allied synthetics (EDI and the geth) will be killed if the Reapers are destroyed, nor does he know much about the Catalyst (at most, he may know what Shepard discovered from the Leviathans, but it's an incomplete picture).

( The Illusive Man's intentions for Control are different from Shepard's, even if Shepard is a Renegade. I'd be more than a little nervous if I were an alien in a galaxy with TIM-controlled Reapers around, and it's not at all clear that TIM understood that he himself would not have survived the process of achieving Control.

© The Reapers seem to be limited to the Catalyst's goals and perspectives, so it's unclear whether Shepard can be said to "agree" with them about anything - their thoughts are probably not fully their own. And there's an argument for Synthesis that doesn't require accepting the Catalyst's rationale - even if you don't accept the inevitability of organic-synthetic conflict (which I don't, and neither do my Shepards), it's the one way out that doesn't involve massive collateral damage or entrusting the future to a single entity (AI-Shepard) and that allows the Reapers a clean slate now that they're no longer bound to continue the cycles.'

I get the argument up to a point, that until the discussion with the Catalyst, we'd been led to believe that destroying the Reapers was the only solution and would certainly trust Anderson over TIM or the Reapers themselves. But Anderson and TIM don't have the full picture.

And if the Catalyst is lying, it's doing a very roundabout and generally poor job of it - there are plenty of ways it could have deceived Shepard more convincingly and thoroughly if it did not, in fact, want to give Shepard a real choice. I think it's a mistake to assume that the Catalyst is motivated by self-preservation or by any investment in its own position of power - it has carried out very evil acts, but its own orientation is more amoral than evil per se. It's simply a malfunctioning tool designed by the Leviathans, with no meaningful boundaries on how it carries out what it understands to be its original task. That includes allowing an organic (Shepard) to take over the entire process and steer it in a completely different direction if it's convinced that would be more effective.

Modifié par FlyingSquirrel, 07 janvier 2013 - 09:53 .

[Priss Blackburne]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

(a) Anderson doesn't know that even well-meaning, allied synthetics (EDI and the geth) will be killed if the Reapers are destroyed, nor does he know much about the Catalyst (at most, he may know what Shepard discovered from the Leviathans, but it's an incomplete picture).

( The Illusive Man's intentions for Control are different from Shepard's, even if Shepard is a Renegade. I'd be more than a little nervous if I were an alien in a galaxy with TIM-controlled Reapers around, and it's not at all clear that TIM understood that he himself would not have survived the process of achieving Control.

© The Reapers seem to be limited to the Catalyst's goals and perspectives, so it's unclear whether Shepard can be said to "agree" with them about anything - their thoughts are probably not fully their own. And there's an argument for Synthesis that doesn't require accepting the Catalyst's rationale - even if you don't accept the inevitability of organic-synthetic conflict (which I don't, and neither do my Shepards), it's the one way out that doesn't involve massive collateral damage or entrusting the future to a single entity (AI-Shepard) and that allows the Reapers a clean slate now that they're no longer bound to continue the cycles.'

I get the argument up to a point, that until the discussion with the Catalyst, we'd been led to believe that destroying the Reapers was the only solution and would certainly trust Anderson over TIM or the Reapers themselves. But Anderson and TIM don't have the full picture.

And if the Catalyst is lying, it's doing a very roundabout and generally poor job of it - there are plenty of ways it could have deceived Shepard more convincingly and thoroughly if it did not, in fact, want to give Shepard a real choice. I think it's a mistake to assume that the Catalyst is motivated by self-preservation or by any investment in its own position of power - it has carried out very evil acts, but its own orientation is more amoral than evil per se. It's simply a malfunctioning tool designed by the Leviathans, with no meaningful boundaries on how it carries out what it understands to be its original task. That includes allowing an organic (Shepard) to take over the entire process and steer it in a completely different direction if it's convinced that would be more effective.

Before I can trust that the Catalyst isn't lying to me he needs to asnwer my questions that nag at me.

Questions I want to ask the Catalyst.

Why did the Catalyst choose not to preserve the Protheans in reaper form when they appeared to be the most evolved species of that cycle?

Why are species deemed not worthy of this discarded if his goal is to preserve organic life?

How much control does he have over the reapers if they regard themselves as individuals and show signs of hatred towards organic species?

Why is Harbinger allowed to conduct experiments on Organics?

Why am I taking advice about preserving organics from synthetics from a synthetic being?

If you control the reapers why do you keep saying We?

Why is one of the Crucible's function( Something you tried to get rid of mind you ) synthesis? Something that you have tried before and that you believe to be the best solution?

If no one got this far before how would they know to create the Crucible in a way that would allow me to control the Reapers? And how would they know the Citadel is the key of this control?

Why is it the Crucible is a device made to unlock more functions for you, someone no one has gotten far enough to meet?

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 07 janvier 2013 - 09:57 .

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...


Leviathan only sets about to make it clear there's something controlling the reapers-it doesn't give anything the kid says validity.  Nor does the EC at all. 

You mean the EC material before Shepard acts, right?

I stated what I thought of the slides.  Technically if you believe the crap that is the super silly slideshows then sure, nothing is changed before Shepard makes a choice.  Afterward, the slides are just a way to make people "feel" like they done gooooood.  Smile for the camera.  It is to stop people from thinking the relays destroyed the galaxy and to provide some sort of epilog-type feeling, but the slides do not show authentic feeling consequences. 

People can continually state they prove all is happy once Shepard makes a choice, but if I am forced to head canon a decent ending then here's my head canon for the slides.  Shepard's brain is dying and is in a state of oxygen deprivation.  In this state, hallucinations happen.  Some see that as what happens in near death-proof of an afterlife and all that.  Some say it is a more physical manifestation that when the brain becomes so deprived, people will hallucinate a lot of things.  I've seen this happen.  People see family members and others when near death.  So, for Shepard this occurs in control and synthesis, hallucinations of the good that was done and happy slide shows and cutscenes.  If destroy is chosen it is the explosion that causes a transient state within Shepard's brain-again the loss of oxygen that rapidly occurs in the vaccuum created by a huge explosion.  Shepard again may well hallucinate within this state.  This state of O2 deprivation is also known to cause the rapid release of endorphines and a feeling of well-being and it is this euphoria that the devs are trying to impart to players.  They want you to experience Shepard's dying or oxygen-deprived state so you get to feel the happy by seeing the slides and viewing the cutscenes.

Prior to all of this is the most important part of the whole thing-what would Shepard know and believe and this is the problem.  The story's immersion is lost when Shepard is forced into believing the kid, though he deceives, and doing something that will go against what Shepard's personality may be-the core thing that is Shepard, without a consideration or real protest.  Not one of the things the kid says is given more than a passing bit of argument.  And there is so much there that the real Shepard would disagree with or that A Shepard could disagree with.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 janvier 2013 - 10:03 .

[3DandBeyond]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Crucible: What is it? Who created it? What is its purpose? Is it a test?

* the catalyst now tells us it is a battery.

* you wouldn't know them and there isn't time. We thought the design was eradicated several cycles ago. Clearly organics are more resourceful than we realized.

* well he doesn't explain this but he says it changes him, and opens new possibilities.

* interesting.

Is anyone's bulls*** meter going off? The Protheans built the thing, and had it completed except they couldn't find the catalyst. They never used it. It is simple in design, uses a lot of resources, and we found the critical components scattered about in the galaxy, like an Easter egg hunt. I found the last part quite interesting. Why weren't they destroyed by the reapers if they were so intent on destroying the design unless they wanted us to build it in the first place, and this thing was a test to see when we organics could help solve the genocidal starbrat's problem.  And what was that? Synthesis. Of course it was designed by the reapers.

It says: We've tried it several times before, and it has failed. It is not something that can be forced. But you can make it work. You are ready. You can rewrite all organic and synthetic life if you want. The cycle will end. It is our.. I mean THE ideal solution. Please do this and jump into the beam. For me? Please? We're sorry we packed quadrillions of lives into these machines over the past billion years. It had to be done, even if it didn't really work. It was only a stop gap measure. You'll forgive us won't you? But this? This solves the equation.

You know if you choose control you'll just have to wait for another to get here and choose this, don't you? And if you destroy us, the cycle will just start again from the beginning, right? Now, just start walking down that plank and jump into the beam. It's really simple. Your time is running out. Please hurry. You're thinking about this. I can hear you. Stop it!

The theme for the scene

1) possible genocide - unless the Quarians did in the Geth
2) galactic police state
3) genetic rewrite of the entire galaxy
4) refusal where you hear the true nature. He appears as a child to gain your sympathy.

Very succinct and says it all.  Only a fool would jump at the chance to join the beam and build green nation.  Convenient that the one thing he's been trying to do all along is his favoritest, bestest, coolest choice and now no longer can't be forced by the kid, but can be forced by Shepard.  Coolest thing ever.  Woowie.  Smell the stench of victory.

[Fur28]

because agreeing with the repares is one of the things Indoctrination does

[3DandBeyond]

Keatstwo wrote...

Every time I want somebody to trust me I'm actually lying to them. Flawless logic. Maybe he just wants you to trust him because he wants you to help him action a better solution to the problem? Hell, he TELLS you right off the bat that he created and controls the reapers, if he really wanted to trick you why would he tell you that?

Well let me ask you how many murders you have committed and then if you tried to get the victims to do you a favor to keep you from killing?  How many people have you turned into goo?  If you say more than zero then your credibility is toilet bound, especially if you want me to help you enact a new solution to replace the goo-making process.

Of course he must tell you he controls the reapers and after Leviathan that's a given that this "intelligence" created them.  He is trying to manipulate in order to make himself believable.  He thinks this all makes some sort of sense but does seem aware that it does not all make sense to Shepard.  Except BW forgot that Shepard should act like it doesn't make sense.

Better to consider this: someone comes inside your home and kills most of your family and eats them, and tells you that he will not kill the others if you solve his problem.  Where would your level of trust be.  Consider that this person gives you or you find some unknown thing lying on the floor.  The killer tells you that this thing (that looks dangerous) will do certain things to solve his problem, but all you wanna do is kill him and his friends.  This killer tells you that unknown thing can kill his friends, or it will allow you to join them and will also join them with your remaining family members.  Or you can become the boss of the gang.  But you mostly must commit suicide to help him.  How much of that would make sense to you?

Real people don't just trust the veracity of serial killers that eat people or someone that makes that happen.  Again, why is it so hard to believe that a thing that is turning people into goo could also deceive?

Basically I tend to be a little more trusting of people that don't make people goo skyscrapers, and not so trusting of those that do.  I'm funny that way.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 janvier 2013 - 10:20 .