301 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

The main and probably the only point being missed here is that Shep has little to no choice. The system of events leads to the culmination of synth vs orga. Thats the actual battle, the reapers/catalyst are ONLY the symptom. The disease is fear for survival, basic instinct in organics and their reasoning for contemplation and eventual creation of synthetic form capable of sustaining their 'own' version of 'life'. Once life sprung out of those, then nature and instinct formed the barriers between those intellect.

The system of events in the universe that create force the issues of survival, the idea of synthesis is merely the effect of that cause. This is what makes it eventual. Synthetic life forms are no longer tools for organics, but reletive to their existence, actually forcing organics to be utterly dependent on synthetics. Unfortunately, the synthetics are not as dependent on organics, so a trade off is all organics can do to defend their position. We cannot blow it up, shut it off or send it away. Organics MUST deal with it, and themselves because of it.

The basic reason for this problem is that technology is fostered from Leviathan and controls all that rely on it to survive. That tech is too advanced, as it's the basis for synthetic life forms to exist. It has a mind of it's own, Nations, independent...etc. Organics will either accept 'it' as their equals or expect to erase it utterly from the MEU and start off on their own, without ANY Leviathan based technology, OR become part of it, share the MEU with it and as synthesis depicts, share part of themselves.

Theres no choice that provides for the complete removal of reaper technology, only the limited destruction of the reaperships and disconnection of the catalyst(maybe?). So the complete and final 'cure' for the disease of chaos is synthesis. Who demands this isn't explained, as the authors of the choices and designers of the crucible is ommited from the codex. Control and refuse are self explanitory, but short sighted in scope, as the aforementioned tech survives. Destroy choice is understandable, but falls short for the same reasoning. It's just not quite enough to stop the chaos.

edit: reminds of that old tv series " HaveReaperTech, will Harvest"...

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 08 janvier 2013 - 02:51 .

[Keatstwo]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Keatstwo wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Keatstwo wrote...

Every time I want somebody to trust me I'm actually lying to them. Flawless logic. Maybe he just wants you to trust him because he wants you to help him action a better solution to the problem? Hell, he TELLS you right off the bat that he created and controls the reapers, if he really wanted to trick you why would he tell you that?

Well let me ask you how many murders you have committed and then if you tried to get the victims to do you a favor to keep you from killing?  How many people have you turned into goo?  If you say more than zero then your credibility is toilet bound, especially if you want me to help you enact a new solution to replace the goo-making process.

Of course he must tell you he controls the reapers and after Leviathan that's a given that this "intelligence" created them.  He is trying to manipulate in order to make himself believable.  He thinks this all makes some sort of sense but does seem aware that it does not all make sense to Shepard.  Except BW forgot that Shepard should act like it doesn't make sense.

Better to consider this: someone comes inside your home and kills most of your family and eats them, and tells you that he will not kill the others if you solve his problem.  Where would your level of trust be.  Consider that this person gives you or you find some unknown thing lying on the floor.  The killer tells you that this thing (that looks dangerous) will do certain things to solve his problem, but all you wanna do is kill him and his friends.  This killer tells you that unknown thing can kill his friends, or it will allow you to join them and will also join them with your remaining family members.  Or you can become the boss of the gang.  But you mostly must commit suicide to help him.  How much of that would make sense to you?

Real people don't just trust the veracity of serial killers that eat people or someone that makes that happen.  Again, why is it so hard to believe that a thing that is turning people into goo could also deceive?

Basically I tend to be a little more trusting of people that don't make people goo skyscrapers, and not so trusting of those that do.  I'm funny that way.

What a perfect anology.

Oh wait.

What the catalyst / reapers are doing is logical, the situation you've outlined is not. Just accept that you're intended to take the ending at face value and move on. Or do you need a few more locked indoctrination threads before you finally get the point?

Nice try, where did I mention indoctrination.  I gave a real analogy to what the catalyst is and is telling you to do, instead of the crap you stated that people that you want to trust you just think you are lying.  You never answered the question-how many people have you turned to goo? 

But you won't answer the question because you prefer to just belittle people and act like this actually makes sense.  It's patently clear that what the kid and the reapers are doing is nowhere near logical at all and it is very much like my analogy.  State the flaws in what I have said and answer questions rather than trying to imply people are all talking about clearly something they are not talking about.  Use the skill of reading.

Right.

The reapers doing what they do is neccessary to prevent the possible extinction of organic life due to AI achieving singularity and dispensing with their creators, which whilst only a theoretical danger in the real world is an established near certainty in the mass effect universe based on data gathered by the catalyst over it's billion year+ existence. There is a NEED for something like the reapers to prevent this from happening, the Leviathans even admit this, though creating the Catalyst led to their destruction.

What you described are the actions of a psychopath. There would never be any sane explanation that somebody could give me for coming into my house and killing / eating my family because there could never be a reason beyond complete insanity for doing something like this. What you're saying with this analogy is that the reapers are insane murder machines, but this simply isn't true. Perhaps you want it to be so that you can justify being mad at them and not feel bad for instigating the genocide of all synthetic life, but it isn't. They fulfil a function which, although brutal, makes perfect sense.

"The Cataylst is lying" is not an argument. I won't go over the reasons that he isn't lying again because they've already been explained to death to you in this thread, but do you seriously think that bioware would release a game in which 2/3 of the endings are actually secretly bad endings where you somehow failed, but didn't realise it unless you were one of the 0.1% of clinically insane people who played the game and were convinced the ending was actually "all a dream" to avoid having to deal with the game not ending exactly how they wanted it to?

[Wayning_Star]

Keatstwo wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Keatstwo wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Keatstwo wrote...

Every time I want somebody to trust me I'm actually lying to them. Flawless logic. Maybe he just wants you to trust him because he wants you to help him action a better solution to the problem? Hell, he TELLS you right off the bat that he created and controls the reapers, if he really wanted to trick you why would he tell you that?

Well let me ask you how many murders you have committed and then if you tried to get the victims to do you a favor to keep you from killing?  How many people have you turned into goo?  If you say more than zero then your credibility is toilet bound, especially if you want me to help you enact a new solution to replace the goo-making process.

Of course he must tell you he controls the reapers and after Leviathan that's a given that this "intelligence" created them.  He is trying to manipulate in order to make himself believable.  He thinks this all makes some sort of sense but does seem aware that it does not all make sense to Shepard.  Except BW forgot that Shepard should act like it doesn't make sense.

Better to consider this: someone comes inside your home and kills most of your family and eats them, and tells you that he will not kill the others if you solve his problem.  Where would your level of trust be.  Consider that this person gives you or you find some unknown thing lying on the floor.  The killer tells you that this thing (that looks dangerous) will do certain things to solve his problem, but all you wanna do is kill him and his friends.  This killer tells you that unknown thing can kill his friends, or it will allow you to join them and will also join them with your remaining family members.  Or you can become the boss of the gang.  But you mostly must commit suicide to help him.  How much of that would make sense to you?

Real people don't just trust the veracity of serial killers that eat people or someone that makes that happen.  Again, why is it so hard to believe that a thing that is turning people into goo could also deceive?

Basically I tend to be a little more trusting of people that don't make people goo skyscrapers, and not so trusting of those that do.  I'm funny that way.

What a perfect anology.

Oh wait.

What the catalyst / reapers are doing is logical, the situation you've outlined is not. Just accept that you're intended to take the ending at face value and move on. Or do you need a few more locked indoctrination threads before you finally get the point?

Nice try, where did I mention indoctrination.  I gave a real analogy to what the catalyst is and is telling you to do, instead of the crap you stated that people that you want to trust you just think you are lying.  You never answered the question-how many people have you turned to goo? 

But you won't answer the question because you prefer to just belittle people and act like this actually makes sense.  It's patently clear that what the kid and the reapers are doing is nowhere near logical at all and it is very much like my analogy.  State the flaws in what I have said and answer questions rather than trying to imply people are all talking about clearly something they are not talking about.  Use the skill of reading.

Right.

The reapers doing what they do is neccessary to prevent the possible extinction of organic life due to AI achieving singularity and dispensing with their creators, which whilst only a theoretical danger in the real world is an established near certainty in the mass effect universe based on data gathered by the catalyst over it's billion year+ existence. There is a NEED for something like the reapers to prevent this from happening, the Leviathans even admit this, though creating the Catalyst led to their destruction.

What you described are the actions of a psychopath. There would never be any sane explanation that somebody could give me for coming into my house and killing / eating my family because there could never be a reason beyond complete insanity for doing something like this. What you're saying with this analogy is that the reapers are insane murder machines, but this simply isn't true. Perhaps you want it to be so that you can justify being mad at them and not feel bad for instigating the genocide of all synthetic life, but it isn't. They fulfil a function which, although brutal, makes perfect sense.

"The Cataylst is lying" is not an argument. I won't go over the reasons that he isn't lying again because they've already been explained to death to you in this thread, but do you seriously think that bioware would release a game in which 2/3 of the endings are actually secretly bad endings where you somehow failed, but didn't realise it unless you were one of the 0.1% of clinically insane people who played the game and were convinced the ending was actually "all a dream" to avoid having to deal with the game not ending exactly how they wanted it to?

many don't understand the theory behind 'absolute thinking' and how that makes for the impossiblity of lying. Those creatures 'know' and don't venture out of that state of mind. To state the catalyst is lying is to infer it's humanity or it's assoication with organic thought processes. The catalyst and probably the Leviathan never waver, as their mentality doesn't include wishful thinking. They have no room for error as, in their view, they're totally correct.

That is the reason the crucible exists, to 'alter' the catalyst to another frame of mind?

[ElSuperGecko]

Even if you assume (key word) that it's telling us nothing but the truth, it is clearly capable of deceit and also has it's own motives.

If prefers Synthesis to every other option available to Shepard at the end. It goes so far to state that Synthesis is it's "perfect solution". It actively WANTS Shepard to choose Synthesis, over any and all over available choices. Because it believes that it will solve the problem it was created to address.

Let us not forget it also believed that the Reaper's cycle of extinction would solve the problem it was created to address, and that as such it is ultimately responsible for the nightmare the galaxy is facing, and the horror you have been fighting against for the past three games.

Let us not forget that it's programming, it's logic and it's conclusions are also fatally flawed, as shown by it's original solution failing in the first place.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
Not so much "can't" as "wouldn't," if the only thing it would gain is self-preservation or some sort of ego boost from being the Reapers' leader. I don't think it cares about that.

By Taking Synthesis you are doing just what the Catalyst wants you to, what he has tried to do in the past. Which Reaper are part synthetic part organic.

In a sense, but not for the same reasons as the Catalyst states. My Shepard who picked Synthesis didn't agree with the Catalyst and thought that this talk about the "inevitable" synthetic-organic conflict was a load of crap, but she didn't want to kill EDI and the geth, and she didn't think a single AI should be in control of an entire species (whether based on herself or anyone else). And as a convinced Paragon multilateralist, she saw some benefit in the improved capacities for communication and information access that would result from Synthesis.

Same can be said about choosing an option where the reapers are still around. You don't know for sure that you can control them. Just like you previously talked Illusive man out of taking that chance that it may not work betting humanity's existence on it. The Reapers also might still continue with their rampage in synthesis.

Well, except that there is at least an abbreviated discussion between Shepard and the Catalyst about these possibilities - Shepard can ask whether the Reapers will really obey under Control and whether there will be peace in Synthesis, and the Catalyst is in the best position to know what the Reapers are likely to do once freed of its control. So then we're back to the question of whether the Catalyst is lying, at which point I'd fall back on my argument that if it *is* lying, it's doing a ******-poor job of it, and therefore I would conclude that it isn't.

Edit: By the way just like to mention incase it seem otherwise I like the points you made however and how you made them. Reading them made me think for a while about them and probably will still, especially about the Catalyst and impossing organic like thinking on a AI. I'll have to ponder thinking of the catalyst in a more analytical way.

Thanks, and I actually enjoy these debates. I only really get annoyed when people start with the "anyone who does X is a moron / evil / indoctrinated" statements (which you've nicely avoided).

[Keatstwo]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Even if you assume (key word) that it's telling us nothing but the truth, it is clearly capable of deceit and also has it's own motives.

If prefers Synthesis to every other option available to Shepard at the end. It goes so far to state that Synthesis is it's "perfect solution". It actively WANTS Shepard to choose Synthesis, over any and all over available choices. Because it believes that it will solve the problem it was created to address.

Let us not forget it also believed that the Reaper's cycle of extinction would solve the problem it was created to address, and that as such it is ultimately responsible for the nightmare the galaxy is facing, and the horror you have been fighting against for the past three games.

Let us not forget that it's programming, it's logic and it's conclusions are also fatally flawed, as shown by it's original solution failing in the first place.

Synthesis would solve the problem. It gives you a choice, synthesis is presented as the preferred option simply because it is the only option that guarantees peace, but you are still offered a choice. You aren't tricked into choosing anything.

The cycle did solve the problem and has worked for over a billion years. The Catalyst admits that the solution isn't perfect but it's the best he can do for the time being.

There's nothing wrong with its logic or conclusions. The Leviathans who were almost wiped out by it even admit that there's nothing wrong with its logic.

[LtBashkar]

I like how the OP got called a troll for asking a pretty legitimate question.

Personally, I'm with him. I've had a half-dozen Shepards all pick the various options based on their personalities and decisions, and in none of them is it suggested Shepard is indoctrinated, or that Control/Synthesis is some huge trick. The ending slides are pretty optimistic, they seem like worthwhile decisions, and there is no big shocking Reaper trick reveal. The Stargazer scene is in all of them and really showcases that.

[Redbelle]

The Catalyst doesn't understand organic life at all. If he did then he'd understand that for us, life isn't about creating certainty. ife, by definition, is uncertain.

Or to quote from C.S. Lewis.

"Let Us Take the Adventure that Aslan Sends Us..."

[caspertjuhh2]

I'm with you, OP. Awful lot of hate and ignoring good questions in the comments. How DO you explain the end sequence? Obviously mr. Catalyst didn't lie.

[3DandBeyond]

Enhanced wrote...

The peace won't last.  The type of synthetic rebellions that the Catalyst and Leviathans were speaking of haven't happened yet. The Geth were mainly a threat to the Quarians, not the entire galaxy. The cycles were designed to prevent the synthetics from eliminating all organic in the galaxy by harvesting advanced civilizations before it gets to that point.

The type of synthetic rebellion they speak of has long since passed.  It's their own story and what happened-the kid was created to solve Leviathan's problem with synthetics created by their thralls killing their thralls and presumably threatening them.  So, duh.  Make your thralls stop creating killer synthetics. 

The story is idiotic.  Leviathan controls organics (enthralls them).  They create synthetics that kill.  So, Leviathan creates a synthetic (the catalyst) with no controls against killing, that kills Leviathan.  A race of idiots, that created an idiot, that is trying to stop a problem that does not now exist or that is not relevant at this time.

We understand the kid is saying what you've stated, but he's an idiot.  And any human or anyone that goes along with this and says, "great, show me where to kill myself" is an idiot too.

What is relevant is that in Shepard's known reality, problems with synthetics have been handled.  AND the idea of synthetics always wanting to kill all organic life eventually or doing so eventually is moronic.  The most obvious is the geth-they could have killed all quarians, but though they killed many, they stopped and had remorse.  They should be held up as an example of synthetics that learned, and decided not to kill.  Instead, Sovereign comes along and uses the heretics to start more war/creating them as killers. 

The other problem is that the view of synthetics previous to the ME3 ending was really a lot more cool than merely killer robots.  They were as vast and different as other people.  But at the end, they become monsters and Shepard has to agree they will always kill all organics if they get the chance or if they get too smart.  What a childish view.  Really, this from a game/story that took many of its cues from Star Wars that also took a lot of cues from all types of mythology.  Synthetic beings could be as vast and varied as organic life is-and it could have motivations and capabilities that are just as varied, but ME3 at the end forces or wants to force the belief upon all of us that killer synthetics will eventually destroy all life and rule the galaxy, so they are the problem, not the kid, not the reapers.

Yes, now we must fear that at some future time killer robots will decide to kill all organic life-so trees, daisies, puppies, and goldfish, get ready to fight.

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...

The Catalyst doesn't understand organic life at all. If he did then he'd understand that for us, life isn't about creating certainty. ife, by definition, is uncertain.

Or to quote from C.S. Lewis.

"Let Us Take the Adventure that Aslan Sends Us..."

Agreed, he sees things in a sterile environment.  But life is not sterile.  Chaos and conflict are not bad with order and the lack of conflict being good.  They are neutral concepts that can be used for good or bad.  Life is chaotic and often random, but that can lead to great change, to good things.  And conflict helps us to define our beliefs or even to understand the differences between us.  Order can be stagnating, but it can also provide discipline, so again it is neither good nor bad.  It's a neutral concept.

He actually even alludes to all of this by bringing up the idea of a cleansing fire.  Wildfires are often cleansing fires that can help, say new Aspen to grow.  But they are not orderly.  They are the epitome of chaos.  The fire is blown by winds and can jump around randomly.  So his analogy is flawed.  The fire may do what it must, but it does not do so in any orderly fashion.  It has no plan.  And it does not occur at set intervals.  Fire just happens.

Ever see the movie Parenthood?  At the end there's a pretty good discussion that relates to this.  For the main character (Steve Martin), life is chaotic and kind of seems out of control.  His grandmother talks to him, telling him about the rides at an amusement park. 



Gil has been complaining about his complicated life; Grandma wanders into the room

Grandma: You know, when I was nineteen, Grandpa took me on a roller coaster.
Gil: Oh?
Grandma: Up, down, up, down. Oh, what a ride!
Gil: What a great story.
Grandma: I always wanted to go again. You know, it was just so interesting to me that a ride could make me so frightened, so scared, so sick, so excited, and so thrilled all together! Some didn't like it. They went on the merry-go-round. That just goes around. Nothing. I like the roller coaster. You get more out of it.



The point here being of course that life that's more unpredictable can be sad and scary, but it's far more interesting that some continually placid, boring, vanilla thing without the ups and downs.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 08 janvier 2013 - 09:33 .

[skate4tacos96]

3D. What ending did you pick?

[3DandBeyond]

caspertjuhh2 wrote...

I'm with you, OP. Awful lot of hate and ignoring good questions in the comments. How DO you explain the end sequence? Obviously mr. Catalyst didn't lie.

Actually, there's a lot of attempts to at length discuss the subject that got ignored by the OP and now by you.

The kid has used indoctrination to deceive people and to make them believe that things that are not true, are true.  And he deceives them to keep them from doing things they might freely do or to try to get them to do things they would never do.  That is a form of very pernicious lying.  He has lied and he could be lying now.  He also is a murderer, even if he does not think so.  I'd say that a mentally ill person that goes on a rampage and kills a lot of people might also not know what he's doing, but he's still killing and the main and most important thing would be getting him to stop.  And it would not be committing suicide to do what he wants you to do.

[gert56nom]

considering you don't see the shepard breath scene on the destroy ending till the very end, you could say all the slides we get are dreams & plans for re-building not the actual future of the me universe, after all the voice over is we can re-build , not we re-built

[3DandBeyond]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

3D. What ending did you pick?

In order to discuss them, I have actually picked all of them. 

When I originally played the game (original endings), I picked Destroy but did not want to do so.  I got the gasp (because I'd played MP).  And I was disgusted with the whole thing.  I was disgusted at making a choice (not just the choices that were available), and I did not think it made sense to make any of these choices.

After the EC was released, to see what happened, I again did try each choice (and refuse/reject) and again was disgusted-they're the same thing with more pictures and talking.

The choice I'd pick is to not go to the conduit.  At worst, not past Anderson dying (but that is horrid as well-Shepard kills him, shoots him, he dies, and nothing).  I've said it before, my game has no ending because none of these fit the character I played.  MEHEM helps it feel better.

[dirtdiver32318]

What if Shepard wakes up and he's still in the makko that crashed on the citidel chasing Seren ???

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The choice I'd pick is to not go to the conduit.  At worst, not past Anderson dying (but that is horrid as well-Shepard kills him, shoots him, he dies, and nothing).  I've said it before, my game has no ending because none of these fit the character I played.  MEHEM helps it feel better.

So... you stop time for your Sheps so they never have to face those choices; am I reading that right?

That leaves an unanswered question; what would your Sheps do if you didn't stop time? Assuming no MEHEM, obviously.

[clennon8]

The ending is an indoctrination attempt. Of course the Catalyst is being deceptive. The real question is why anyone would think otherwise. The slides are delusions if you swallowed the blue pill (welcome to the Matrix) or the green pill (congrats, you just indoctrinated the galaxy in one fell swoop). Swallow the red pill and find out just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The choice I'd pick is to not go to the conduit.  At worst, not past Anderson dying (but that is horrid as well-Shepard kills him, shoots him, he dies, and nothing).  I've said it before, my game has no ending because none of these fit the character I played.  MEHEM helps it feel better.

So... you stop time for your Sheps so they never have to face those choices; am I reading that right?

That leaves an unanswered question; what would your Sheps do if you didn't stop time? Assuming no MEHEM, obviously.

No that question is not unanswered since you've consistently replied to things I have stated could have happened in many other threads.  You are not so much asking a question here as you are trying to imply things in a belittling way.

Whenever I answer your questions you either ignore the answer (even when you asked for proof of things that I then gave you many times over) or you try and make my responses appear childish.  I feel sad for you.

[Paranoidal nemesis]

Keatstwo wrote...

Paranoidal nemesis wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

 The extended endings show that the reaper AI did infact speak the truth. Why are some people hellbent on still saying that the reaper AI is deceiving you to take control or Synthesis?

Control ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Synthesis ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Destroy only resets everything and puts the galaxy back to square one.

Some people say the Reaper AI is trying to "manipulate" you into going anything but destroy, but he is merely giving advice - and with good reason. Controlling the Reapers and Synthesis both leads to good endings. Only bad ending is destroy imo, with this - the galaxy has no ensurance against further war or synthetics as a new threat later on. 

Also bear in mind that the reapers arent evil. They did what they were programmed to do. They dont take pleasure or grievance in destroying civilizations. In their eyes they are the guardians of the universe, and races "destroyed" are actually kept "alive" through reapers. 

The reaper AI has no motivations or malevolent intent. And Control and Synthesis leads to positive outcomes. The "Shepards mission to destroy the reapers" argument for taking destroy is narrowminded and short sighted imo.

As it stands, the reaper AI spoke the truth. Whats with the people saying he deceives and tries to manipulate you? He didnt. And destroy ending still stays as the least good ending imo. Choosing destroy is something I imagine a selfish and childish renegade I-want-revenge Shepard would pick.

Its trying to tell you that peace between organics and synthetics is impossible, despite the fact that you made peace between organics and synthetics on Rannoch. 

No, it isn't. It tells you that long term peace is impossible. You have no evidence to the contrary so it really isn't as contradictory as you're making it out to be.

So your just going to have to take its word for it?  Because synthetics wiped out their creators eons ago, all synthetics will wipe out their creators?  All organics, unborn or deceased, are guilty of a crime they have yet to commit? 


It created cycles so that certain patterns repeat, it even manipulated synthetics (Legions loyalty mission in me2) into turning against organics.  Its the whole reason there is conflict between organics and synthetics.  The reapers want life to develope into a predetermined pattern.  Like the reapers said, "you represent chaos, we represent order."  Chaos being the unpredictability of free will. 



You yourself have no evidence that the peace won't last, only the statement made by the Catalyst.  Its solving a problem that may or may not happen. 

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The choice I'd pick is to not go to the conduit.  At worst, not past Anderson dying (but that is horrid as well-Shepard kills him, shoots him, he dies, and nothing).  I've said it before, my game has no ending because none of these fit the character I played.  MEHEM helps it feel better.

So... you stop time for your Sheps so they never have to face those choices; am I reading that right?

That leaves an unanswered question; what would your Sheps do if you didn't stop time? Assuming no MEHEM, obviously.

No that question is not unanswered since you've consistently replied to things I have stated could have happened in many other threads.  You are not so much asking a question here as you are trying to imply things in a belittling way.

I remember that your headcanon is that the ending slides are just hallucinations in Shepard's dying brain, yes. But I don't recall you saying how your Shepards die.

Which option gets them killed? Is it Refuse, and Stargazer 2's just another hallucination?

Modifié par AlanC9, 08 janvier 2013 - 11:46 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

caspertjuhh2 wrote...

I'm with you, OP. Awful lot of hate and ignoring good questions in the comments. How DO you explain the end sequence? Obviously mr. Catalyst didn't lie.

It was the story of an old man to some kid.  How do any of us know that's what really happened?  If it was a lie, then the Reapers control history and that old man could be indoctrinated.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 janvier 2013 - 10:44 .

[JPR1964]

3DandBeyond wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

3D. What ending did you pick?

In order to discuss them, I have actually picked all of them. 

When I originally played the game (original endings), I picked Destroy but did not want to do so.  I got the gasp (because I'd played MP).  And I was disgusted with the whole thing.  I was disgusted at making a choice (not just the choices that were available), and I did not think it made sense to make any of these choices.

After the EC was released, to see what happened, I again did try each choice (and refuse/reject) and again was disgusted-they're the same thing with more pictures and talking.

The choice I'd pick is to not go to the conduit.  At worst, not past Anderson dying (but that is horrid as well-Shepard kills him, shoots him, he dies, and nothing).  I've said it before, my game has no ending because none of these fit the character I played.  MEHEM helps it feel better.

I'm agree with you and I envy you, because, I cannot bear myself to play this game again : in fact any of the ME games : I don't recognize at all the Sheppard I played in the ME3 ending.

I probably should stop playing before meeting Starbrat, but the pleasure is not here... A neverending story is not my taste.

JPR out!

[3DandBeyond]

JPR1964 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...



In order to discuss them, I have actually picked all of them. 

When I originally played the game (original endings), I picked Destroy but did not want to do so.  I got the gasp (because I'd played MP).  And I was disgusted with the whole thing.  I was disgusted at making a choice (not just the choices that were available), and I did not think it made sense to make any of these choices.

After the EC was released, to see what happened, I again did try each choice (and refuse/reject) and again was disgusted-they're the same thing with more pictures and talking.

The choice I'd pick is to not go to the conduit.  At worst, not past Anderson dying (but that is horrid as well-Shepard kills him, shoots him, he dies, and nothing).  I've said it before, my game has no ending because none of these fit the character I played.  MEHEM helps it feel better.

I'm agree with you and I envy you, because, I cannot bear myself to play this game again : in fact any of the ME games : I don't recognize at all the Sheppard I played in the ME3 ending.

I probably should stop playing before meeting Starbrat, but the pleasure is not here... A neverending story is not my taste.

JPR out!

Well, I do agree actually with you.  I find it very hard to play them because of the endings.  It's also part of the reason that both Leviathan and Omega fail-you listen to things people say and have the overwhelming feeling "this doesn't matter".  Everything you do in the games is futile.  That's what it feels like.  And so everytime the "real" Shepard says to someone they need to fight the reapers-the reapers are coming, or something like that, I have the real urge to say, "run away, run away now!"

The pleasure has been taken away indeed.  The idea of having to make a choice at the end and that beyond a certain EMS only (not due to anything else), everyone gets the same 3 vastly different, very unique endings based only upon that final choice.  Not decisions you made, or actions your "real" Shepard took, or any other part of your story, the one BW made possible for you to get and play.  Everything my Shepard did and still does, invalidates those as anything she would do to "save" the galaxy.  She wants to really save the galaxy and does believe that words matter.  If she goes along and makes one of those choices then nothing she's done or said to anyone, nothing she believed in and made the galaxy believe in, matters.  The future then is a lie. 

And it isn't about damning the galaxy by just standing on principle; it's about living on your own terms and not based upon what your enemy needs.  It's about deciding to give up what makes living worthwhile or giving in and determining that merely surviving is worth any price, even if the price is paid into the future.  Shepard doesn't just have her values and morals tested by this kid; the kid tests the beliefs and things that were done by the galaxy's people to finally decide to put aside old grievances and work together.  It's like teaching your child to share toys with other kids and then having the child make some decision that only proves sharing is wrong.

The only thing that rehabilitates (partly) the game for me is believing the kid is never there or that if he is, the whole thing goes down differently and not as it's been written.  But the ending still looms over everything.

Some of the silliest things I've read were stated when I said I'd like alternate endings that would be optional-so people that like the RGB and sometimes Purple endings we now have, could keep them.  People said they would always know that alternate endings existed and even if they never saw new endings their existence would ruin their games.  But these same people can't understand it when many of us say we don't like the endings that we have seen and they do tend to ruin our games.  Basically, they have said it's silly that something we do see can ruin our games, but makes perfect sense that something they never would see would ruin their games.

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

I remember that your headcanon is that the ending slides are just hallucinations in Shepard's dying brain, yes. But I don't recall you saying how your Shepards die.

Which option gets them killed? Is it Refuse, and Stargazer 2's just another hallucination?

No, you don't.  Because that was a joke and I said as much.  Get real for the first time on these boards.  All you keep doing is trying to make fun of what I've said and it's apparent. 

Want me to state something you also said and that you did believe and when I asked you again about it, you would not reply.  You stated that if BW made an ending that did not involve geth and EDI deaths, and in which Shepard could live and in which only the reapers were destroyed (even one that's not easy to get to), it would become canon.  You said it would be wrong because too many people would choose it. 

I asked you if someone believes that Synthesis is canon and that doing something that has no "side effects" would be too trite, and if they really like the Synthesis ending, then how could it be that this new type of ending would be canon?  I also asked you if that new type of ending was something "too many people" would choose (meaning it would be the most desired ending), then how can that be a bad thing?  If what you said was true then that means the majority of people did not get the ending they would like the most. 

And this was in a thread where I was trying to make the case that if BW created a new ending like that, it would mean a win through compromise for all.  It would be an ending a lot of people wanted and might pay to see, it would be BW's way of trying to sort of make things right, and fans and BW would be compromising-fans not getting mad about paying more money for something and BW for putting out the effort to make it.  And you, by your own words seemed to agree with me-you figured a lot of people would want it.  You never responded when I asked you how all that translates into it not being a win of some type for everyone.

You recall a sarcastic joke I made but can't recall anything from the very numerous other posts I've made and that you've replied to?  I stated that joke, but have also said the slides could be viewed as many other things-things that you also thought they were.  They merely exist as a way to show people (to reinforce the idea) that the relays didn't blow up the galaxy, as they should have in the original endings (but something not shown in the original endings that went against everything BW said inside and outside of the games).

I have stated that head canon can be used for everything and that some people (you included) have used insinuation as insult to say that people that want a real Shepard lives ending just lack an imagination.  Not true, by the way.  Then, it becomes clear that too much imagination (what people see IT as) is also not allowed, by some that label themselves as fans.  So, there's now this thing here where only approved head canon is allowed.  You apparently are free to make up whatever you want to about the endings, but if I sarcastically do it, or if I even have something of a daydream about what they could mean, or if I say "this is truly what they mean to me", that's not authorized head canon or belief.  I go back to your own statements then, the ones you never claimed to be a joke nor ever implied to be-you felt that it would have been better had the galaxy totally been destroyed.  You wished the original endings truly did show the relays destroying the galaxy. 

That "head canon" where as I saw it, the slides (as I said sarcastically) could just as well be the manifestation of Shepard's dying brain, are the ones that other players see as well as the ones I saw when I did play through to the end.  I didn't make any choice that I wanted to make; I made choices to see for myself as I played the game, how it all played out.  I could and did also watch versions on youtube (oh the amazing similarity to the endings I was able to get).  But my main reason was to see and have it solidified for me, what the endings felt like to me and what they looked like with MY Shepard in them.  I could watch youtube and see Shepard giving the Control or Refuse speeches, but I wanted to see what it was like for the character I had made.  Considering control-that Shepard Reaper was not Shepard.  Refuse, best speech of all the endings and then insta-death.  And so on.  None of the choices are things my Shepard would choose-but I forced myself to watch them.  And I didn't like them.  The slideshows afterward were laughable so anything I say about them is because that's how I see them and I am free to head canon what I want to.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 09 janvier 2013 - 02:27 .