301 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

Saren and TIM believed that the Reapers were telling them the honest truth as well. Look at what happened to them. nuff said.

[Keatstwo]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because he is nonsensical and illogical.

The end credits show that he was full of it.  Destroy EC slides and Stargazer scene show that synthetics do not rise up or anything.  The Catalyst is wrong.

I see nothing illogical or nonsensical in what the Catalyst said. It was there for millions of years, and it spent enough time on investigating and attempts to solve the problem. And who is Shepard to judge that?

Sooner or later after Destroy new synthetics will be built and everything will start from the beginning. Just give galactic civilization some time. History just loves to repeat itself.

The Stargazer scene belittles your argument.  10,000 years in the future and no synthetic rebellion in sight.

The Catalyst sought a solution to a problem that never existed.  There wouldn't be synthetic conflicts without the reapers' interference

The Stargazer scene is so obtuse it means practically nothing. But even if it means what you think it means and everyone is living the dream, 10,000 years isn't really that long. Considering the universe has about 100 trillion years left to go before heat death there's still plenty of time for a screw up.

[Steelcan]

That still doesn't answer the other part of my point

[Keatstwo]

Because it doesn't even make sense, the Catalyst tells you pretty clearly that the problem was around long before he created the reapers.

In before "herp derp the catalyst is lying!!11".

[Yate]

If the AI was a human, it would try and deceive Shepard, but it's not. It probably doesn't occur to it that it could lie to save itself, or it just doesn't want to. The problem is that we attribute our own logic to a completely alien intelligence.

[Hazegurl]

Synthetics lie all the time. Both EDI and Legion have lied to serve their own purposes. Don't see how a bunch of reapers are immune to that simple act.

[Steelcan]

Yate wrote...

If the AI was a human, it would try and deceive Shepard, but it's not. It probably doesn't occur to it that it could lie to save itself, or it just doesn't want to. The problem is that we attribute our own logic to a completely alien intelligence.

EDI can lie, Legion can lie by omission.

[Priss Blackburne]

The problem is the Reaper AI contradicts most things said by the reapers up to his introduction.

[Keatstwo]

If the Catalyst was lying why would he even offer you the choice of destroying the reapers? If he wanted to he could just say "hey, you see that beam straight ahead? Jump into that and all the reapers will explode and you'll magically appear back on Earth and live happily ever after!". Either he's incapable of lying or he doesn't see any reason to, it amounts to the same thing in the end.

[Steelcan]

Keatstwo wrote...

If the Catalyst was lying why would he even offer you the choice of destroying the reapers? If he wanted to he could just say "hey, you see that beam straight ahead? Jump into that and all the reapers will explode and you'll magically appear back on Earth and live happily ever after!". Either he's incapable of lying or he doesn't see any reason to, it amounts to the same thing in the end.

Because you know the Crucible can destroy the reapers.  And I don't think the Catalyst is lying, I think he's steering you towards synthesis because its what he wants

[GiarcYekrub]

The Mad Hanar wrote...
He's the leader of the Reapers.

Says who? Him himself, if you believe that, why not anything else

The Mad Hanar wrote...
The people trying to destroy the galaxy.

Who is trying to destroy the galaxy? The Galaxy and life has survived numerous harvests we've seen lots of evidence of this

The Mad Hanar wrote...
The people who are known to use mind control.

So why resort to deception, why not just place a sign in front of synthsis saying "jump here, stop reapers" 

The Mad Hanar wrote...
The people who have never done anything nice ever.

Really? The Protheans and  Leviathons were a dominate authoritarian civilisations whos Harvest enabled the Human,Asari,Salarian,Krogan,Turian civilisations to evolve

The Mad Hanar wrote...
The people who's only purpose is killing other beings.

And preserving them in Reaper form

The Mad Hanar wrote...
The people who have been trying to kill Shepard since the first game.

Actually I'm sure Harbinger wanted Shepards body alive for some reason

[Hazegurl]

Destroy was added but downplayed heavily by the reaper AI. He even implies that you would die if you use it. Now if you are a renegade you may shy away from that option especially if you care more about your own life than everyone else. If you are paragon and don't mind giving your life to kill the reapers, The reaper AI further deceives you by painting it red. A clear renegade option. Destroy is meant to deceive you in two ways.

[Gewehr_fr]

Yes I agree that what the catalyst AI says must be taken at face value, you have no choice but to trust it anyway.

However to say reapers aren't evil you must be either trolling or indoctrinated. They certainly don't perceive it as evil acts, they're just doing what they've been programmed for "when fire burns, is it war?", but facts are that they're killing everyone, turning men women and children of every civilization in the galaxy into glue or mindless zombies ground forces. Individuals are plain killed. Only their DNA is preserved which is useless, and also assumes the capital ship doesn't get destroyed in future cycles.

The way I see reapers are abominations that must be destroyed no matter the cost. If the synthetics must one day or another inevitably takeover the galaxy, then so be it. I have not seen an evidence of this happening in this current cycle.

[N7Gold]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

 The extended endings show that the reaper AI did infact speak the truth. Why are some people hellbent on still saying that the reaper AI is deceiving you to take control or Synthesis?

Control ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Synthesis ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Destroy only resets everything and puts the galaxy back to square one.

Some people say the Reaper AI is trying to "manipulate" you into going anything but destroy, but he is merely giving advice - and with good reason. Controlling the Reapers and Synthesis both leads to good endings. Only bad ending is destroy imo, with this - the galaxy has no ensurance against further war or synthetics as a new threat later on. 

Also bear in mind that the reapers arent evil. They did what they were programmed to do. They dont take pleasure or grievance in destroying civilizations. In their eyes they are the guardians of the universe, and races "destroyed" are actually kept "alive" through reapers. 

The reaper AI has no motivations or malevolent intent. And Control and Synthesis leads to positive outcomes. The "Shepards mission to destroy the reapers" argument for taking destroy is narrowminded and short sighted imo.

As it stands, the reaper AI spoke the truth. Whats with the people saying he deceives and tries to manipulate you? He didnt. And destroy ending still stays as the least good ending imo. Choosing destroy is something I imagine a selfish and childish renegade I-want-revenge Shepard would pick.

The Catalyst still does the bidding of its creators, and even though it harvested most of its creators many years ago, the survivors are still hiding in the galaxy, and its creators are NOT paragons looking to restore peace in the galaxy, they want peace between organics and synthetics so they can reclaim their dominance in the galaxy. It's best if we defeated the Reapers on our own terms-- Synthesis, Control and Destroy are too risky to choose.

[Wayning_Star]

We don't know who authored the choices menu, so we cannot place blame of deception on the catalyst, especiallly if it's only to justify an incorrect choice. The catalyst admits that the crucible changes it and the choices are present where they, apparently, were not before...

[Hazegurl]

Gewehr_fr wrote...

Yes I agree that what the catalyst AI says must be taken at face value, you have no choice but to trust it anyway.

However to say reapers aren't evil you must be either trolling or indoctrinated. They certainly don't perceive it as evil acts, they're just doing what they've been programmed for "when fire burns, is it war?", but facts are that they're killing everyone, turning men women and children of every civilization in the galaxy into glue or mindless zombies ground forces. Individuals are plain killed. Only their DNA is preserved which is useless, and also assumes the capital ship doesn't get destroyed in future cycles.

The way I see reapers are abominations that must be destroyed no matter the cost. If the synthetics must one day or another inevitably takeover the galaxy, then so be it. I have not seen an evidence of this happening in this current cycle.

Right, besides reapers are not fire, they are not mother nature nor are they a natural event. They are created unatural beings that are in fact starting a war. They don't preserve life, they just know how to destory it. Good riddance.

[Wayning_Star]

N7Gold wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

 The extended endings show that the reaper AI did infact speak the truth. Why are some people hellbent on still saying that the reaper AI is deceiving you to take control or Synthesis?

Control ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Synthesis ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Destroy only resets everything and puts the galaxy back to square one.

Some people say the Reaper AI is trying to "manipulate" you into going anything but destroy, but he is merely giving advice - and with good reason. Controlling the Reapers and Synthesis both leads to good endings. Only bad ending is destroy imo, with this - the galaxy has no ensurance against further war or synthetics as a new threat later on. 

Also bear in mind that the reapers arent evil. They did what they were programmed to do. They dont take pleasure or grievance in destroying civilizations. In their eyes they are the guardians of the universe, and races "destroyed" are actually kept "alive" through reapers. 

The reaper AI has no motivations or malevolent intent. And Control and Synthesis leads to positive outcomes. The "Shepards mission to destroy the reapers" argument for taking destroy is narrowminded and short sighted imo.

As it stands, the reaper AI spoke the truth. Whats with the people saying he deceives and tries to manipulate you? He didnt. And destroy ending still stays as the least good ending imo. Choosing destroy is something I imagine a selfish and childish renegade I-want-revenge Shepard would pick.

The Catalyst still does the bidding of its creators, and even though it harvested most of its creators many years ago, the survivors are still hiding in the galaxy, and its creators are NOT paragons looking to restore peace in the galaxy, they want peace between organics and synthetics so they can reclaim their dominance in the galaxy. It's best if we defeated the Reapers on our own terms-- Synthesis, Control and Destroy are too risky to choose.

we have no 'terms' tho, the situation has went beyond 'us'. The choices are all we have. The leviathan are a consistent worry for me, synthesis is the only weapon potent enough to limit their potential. Destroy leaves us open to them, control only causes for two or more problems to evolve with time, a thing that the Leviathan have plenty of and are very patient. They're still the apex organic race, so we much consider our exposure to that fiasco waiting to happen. They invented the catalyst and it's reapers and control the MEU with their technology,eventhough hidden, another threat, in of it's self...

[GiarcYekrub]

Gewehr_fr wrote...

Yes I agree that what the catalyst AI says must be taken at face value, you have no choice but to trust it anyway.

However to say reapers aren't evil you must be either trolling or indoctrinated. They certainly don't perceive it as evil acts, they're just doing what they've been programmed for "when fire burns, is it war?", but facts are that they're killing everyone, turning men women and children of every civilization in the galaxy into glue or mindless zombies ground forces. Individuals are plain killed. Only their DNA is preserved which is useless, and also assumes the capital ship doesn't get destroyed in future cycles.

The way I see reapers are abominations that must be destroyed no matter the cost. If the synthetics must one day or another inevitably takeover the galaxy, then so be it. I have not seen an evidence of this happening in this current cycle.

Mass Effect is a Science Fiction story, there is no Good and Evil in Sci Fi(just differing agendas), thats the domain of Fantasy stories(like Star Wars)

[Priss Blackburne]

-"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding".
-"I am beyond your comprehension"

-"Reaper: a label created by the protheans to give voice to their destruction [...]"
-"[...] in the end what they chose to call us is irrelevant, we simply are"
-"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident"

-"[...] you wither and die, we are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence"
-"Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything"
-"Organic civilizations advance, evolve and at the apex of their glory they are extinguished".

-"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it your society develops along the paths that we desire."
-"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution"

-"You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it"

-"My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation. Independent, free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of our existance"
-"We have no beginning, we have no end. We are infinite."

-"Your words are as empty as your future, I am the vanguard of your destruction".

-"We are the Harbinger of your perfection".

-"The forces of the universe bend to me"
-"You are bacteria"
-"Face your annihilation"
-"You are vermin"
-"We will end you"
-"We are superior"
-"Embrace perfection"
-"We are limitless"
-"My attack will tear you apart"
-"I will make you feel true pain Shepard"

-"Geth, an annoyance, limited utility".

-"Your worlds will become our laboratories"
-"The experiments will continue Shepard"
-"Progress cannot be delayed"

Some Reaper Quotes pulled from this old post http://social.biowar...ndex/12882250/1 because I'm lazy and don't want to type them all out.

A couple may support the Catalyst but man do the Reapers hate organics ( who they apparently are saving by putting them in reaper form? and if they where saving organics why not the Protheans?) and look down on other Synthetics.

edit: dang I gotta split going to be late for appointment

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:24 .

[Wayning_Star]

Hazegurl wrote...

Gewehr_fr wrote...

Yes I agree that what the catalyst AI says must be taken at face value, you have no choice but to trust it anyway.

However to say reapers aren't evil you must be either trolling or indoctrinated. They certainly don't perceive it as evil acts, they're just doing what they've been programmed for "when fire burns, is it war?", but facts are that they're killing everyone, turning men women and children of every civilization in the galaxy into glue or mindless zombies ground forces. Individuals are plain killed. Only their DNA is preserved which is useless, and also assumes the capital ship doesn't get destroyed in future cycles.

The way I see reapers are abominations that must be destroyed no matter the cost. If the synthetics must one day or another inevitably takeover the galaxy, then so be it. I have not seen an evidence of this happening in this current cycle.

Right, besides reapers are not fire, they are not mother nature nor are they a natural event. They are created unatural beings that are in fact starting a war. They don't preserve life, they just know how to destory it. Good riddance.

inaccurate, as they contain life and their DNA of past harvests. Their intellect it's self is from past civilizations.

[Vortex13]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Also bear in mind that the reapers arent evil. They did what they were programmed to do. They dont take pleasure or grievance in destroying civilizations. In their eyes they are the guardians of the universe, and races "destroyed" are actually kept "alive" through reapers. 

The reaper AI has no motivations or malevolent intent. And Control and Synthesis leads to positive outcomes. The "Shepards mission to destroy the reapers" argument for taking destroy is narrowminded and short sighted imo.

Sovreign: "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten we will endure, the pinnicle of evolution and existence."

Seems kinda evil there. I don't get any warm fuzzy: "We are killing you to save you from synthetics." out of that declaration. 


What about Harbinger forcing the Collectors to use weapons that are physically painful to operate? Or the taunts he throws at Shepard, and the colonists he terrorizes with his speaches? That doesn't sound like a simple machine following its programming, that sounds like an intelligent being that takes sadistic pleasure in causing pain and fear in its victims. 

The whole: "The Reapers are just misunderstood slaves to machine logic" doesn't cut it in the ME narrative (IMO) especially when you have characters like Soverign and Harbinger who fly in the face of such sentiment. If the Reapers hadn't been previously portrayed as the Cuthulu-esque monsters from beyond our galaxy's horizon in the first two games; or if this was any other science fiction setting (I, Robot for example); I would buy the Catalyst's 'logic'. But as it stands now (IMO) he is a horrible info dump of a character introduced in tr last five minutes of the game, who not only changes the theme of the series but destroys the Reapers' previously established character/presence (again just my opinion).

Up until the Catalyst appears the Reapers have been portrayed as the ultimate evil in the MEU; its kind of hard to trust a character, who up until five minutes ago was the Devil. And while I can respect your opinion on the the Catalyst/endings I don't agree with it, and calling poeople who don't trust the Reapers and chose to destroy them shortsighted and narrow minded isn't helping the discussion any more then people who call you indoctrinated.

[Wayning_Star]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

-"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding".
-"I am beyond your comprehension"

-"Reaper: a label created by the protheans to give voice to their destruction [...]"
-"[...] in the end what they chose to call us is irrelevant, we simply are"
-"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident"

-"[...] you wither and die, we are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence"
-"Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything"
-"Organic civilizations advance, evolve and at the apex of their glory they are extinguished".

-"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it your society develops along the paths that we desire."
-"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution"

-"You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it"

-"My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation. Independent, free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of our existance"
-"We have no beginning, we have no end. We are infinite."

-"Your words are as empty as your future, I am the vanguard of your destruction".

-"We are the Harbinger of your perfection".

-"The forces of the universe bend to me"
-"You are bacteria"
-"Face your annihilation"
-"You are vermin"
-"We will end you"
-"We are superior"
-"Embrace perfection"
-"We are limitless"
-"My attack will tear you apart"
-"I will make you feel true pain Shepard"

-"Geth, an annoyance, limited utility".

-"Your worlds will become our laboratories"
-"The experiments will continue Shepard"
-"Progress cannot be delayed"

Some Reaper Quotes pulled from this old post http://social.biowar...ndex/12882250/1 because I'm lazy and don't want to type them all out.

A couple may support the Catalyst but man do the Reapers hate organics ( who they apparently are saving by putting them in reaper form? and if they where saving organics why not the Protheans?) and look down on other Synthetics.

edit: dang I gotta split going to be late for appointment

these are pre harvest taunts. No one said the reaperships are bright, their job description doesn't include innovation. Their purpose is harvest, they're controlled by the catalyst, but the harvest is theirs to perform.  The term 'destroy' has it's meaning as simply remove from existence, but if you save even a part of something/one it's not utterly destroyed.

That's the problem with the destroy choice, as the basics of reapers via Leviathan technology still remains..logic dictates that reapers will return then, if one form or another.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because he is nonsensical and illogical.

The end credits show that he was full of it.  Destroy EC slides and Stargazer scene show that synthetics do not rise up or anything.  The Catalyst is wrong.

I see nothing illogical or nonsensical in what the Catalyst said. It was there for millions of years, and it spent enough time on investigating and attempts to solve the problem. And who is Shepard to judge that?

Sooner or later after Destroy new synthetics will be built and everything will start from the beginning. Just give galactic civilization some time. History just loves to repeat itself.

The Stargazer scene belittles your argument.  10,000 years in the future and no synthetic rebellion in sight.

The Catalyst sought a solution to a problem that never existed.  There wouldn't be synthetic conflicts without the reapers' interference

Disagree. There are just two people and background in the Stargazer scene. In case of Destroy the new conflict might be already happening. Even in the time of war there are some peaceful places in the world. Also, the subsequent conflict with synthetics could already be finished with destruction of some habitable worlds before the Stargazer scene. Why old man doesn't talk about that? Because he is talking about Shepard's story and other worlds, synthetics are not his topic right now.

Leviathan confirms what the Catalyst said. Leviathans existed long before the Reapers were created, and Liviathans observed how organics-vs-synthetics problem always destroy advanced enough civilizations and entire worlds at some point. Leviathans noticed the deadly trend, and that was the reason for creating the Catalyst.

[Wayning_Star]

Vortex13 wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Also bear in mind that the reapers arent evil. They did what they were programmed to do. They dont take pleasure or grievance in destroying civilizations. In their eyes they are the guardians of the universe, and races "destroyed" are actually kept "alive" through reapers. 

The reaper AI has no motivations or malevolent intent. And Control and Synthesis leads to positive outcomes. The "Shepards mission to destroy the reapers" argument for taking destroy is narrowminded and short sighted imo.

Sovreign: "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten we will endure, the pinnicle of evolution and existence."

Seems kinda evil there. I don't get any warm fuzzy: "We are killing you to save you from synthetics." out of that declaration. 


What about Harbinger forcing the Collectors to use weapons that are physically painful to operate? Or the taunts he throws at Shepard, and the colonists he terrorizes with his speaches? That doesn't sound like a simple machine following its programming, that sounds like an intelligent being that takes sadistic pleasure in causing pain and fear in its victims. 

The whole: "The Reapers are just misunderstood slaves to machine logic" doesn't cut it in the ME narrative (IMO) especially when you have characters like Soverign and Harbinger who fly in the face of such sentiment. If the Reapers hadn't been previously portrayed as the Cuthulu-esque monsters from beyond our galaxy's horizon in the first two games; or if this was any other science fiction setting (I, Robot for example); I would buy the Catalyst's 'logic'. But as it stands now (IMO) he is a horrible info dump of a character introduced in tr last five minutes of the game, who not only changes the theme of the series but destroys the Reapers' previously established character/presence (again just my opinion).

Up until the Catalyst appears the Reapers have been portrayed as the ultimate evil in the MEU; its kind of hard to trust a character, who up until five minutes ago was the Devil. And while I can respect your opinion on the the Catalyst/endings I don't agree with it, and calling poeople who don't trust the Reapers and chose to destroy them shortsighted and narrow minded isn't helping the discussion any more then people who call you indoctrinated.

Yeah, the game/story does force that issue of dominance upon Shep from day one. But the weird twists comes with the realisation that things are NOT as they seem. I think it's a matter of projecting survival and the omnipresent threat of extinction, a prime motivator for organics. But in the end, the mind is a terrible thing to waste?