301 réponses à ce sujet

[skate4tacos96]

Why would the Destroy ending exist at all if it were truly the bad one as it's made out to be? If the other two endings end in peace and prosperity, why would there be a third "bad" option? Well that's because the Catalyst is trying to persuade you to believe that destroying the Reapers is not a good choice. The Reapers most well known qualities are the ability to change a persons beliefs, and deception.

Modifié par skate4tacos96, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:35 .

[Wayning_Star]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because he is nonsensical and illogical.

The end credits show that he was full of it.  Destroy EC slides and Stargazer scene show that synthetics do not rise up or anything.  The Catalyst is wrong.

I see nothing illogical or nonsensical in what the Catalyst said. It was there for millions of years, and it spent enough time on investigating and attempts to solve the problem. And who is Shepard to judge that?

Sooner or later after Destroy new synthetics will be built and everything will start from the beginning. Just give galactic civilization some time. History just loves to repeat itself.

The Stargazer scene belittles your argument.  10,000 years in the future and no synthetic rebellion in sight.

The Catalyst sought a solution to a problem that never existed.  There wouldn't be synthetic conflicts without the reapers' interference

Disagree. There are just two people and background in the Stargazer scene. In case of Destroy the new conflict might be already happening. Even in the time of war there are some peaceful places in the world. Also, the subsequent conflict with synthetics could already be finished with destruction of some habitable worlds before the Stargazer scene. Why old man doesn't talk about that? Because he is talking about Shepard's story and other worlds, synthetics are not his topic right now.

Leviathan confirms what the Catalyst said. Leviathans existed long before the Reapers were created, and Liviathans observed how organics-vs-synthetics problem always destroy advanced enough civilizations and entire worlds at some point. Leviathans noticed the deadly trend, and that was the reason for creating the Catalyst.

I wondered where the catalyst got the bright idea of harvesting the Leviathan?

[GiarcYekrub]

Thats not evil, Thats the reapers using the galaxy as petri dish to test their hypothsis's and because it views the life that forms is disposable to ensure the long term viability of the experiment, their is no inheirently "Evil" intent

[ZajoE38]

Games don't deceive players. There is no hidden meaning that would boost your selective memory and send you to investigate irrelevant clues

[Wayning_Star]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Thats not evil, Thats the reapers using the galaxy as petri dish to test their hypothsis's and because it views the life that forms is disposable to ensure the long term viability of the experiment, their is no inheirently "Evil" intent

but apathy can be considered an evil of sorts... intentional ignorance.

[Wayning_Star]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Games don't deceive players. There is no hidden meaning that would boost your selective memory and send you to investigate irrelevant clues

you don't know me very well..lol

[griot13]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Im not indoctrinated. Harbinger does not tell me what to do. I pick control or Synthesis because I believe its the right choice.

In all seriousness. The extended endings shows that the Reaper AI did not lie. How do explain that?

Indoctrination does not take differct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persaude you till beliveing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren)...Personally I don't think a picture montage is a enough to make me belive the Catalyst!

What about the fact that the Catalyst appears in the form of the little boy which makes no sense unless the Reapers were in Sheps head.... and by some small chance if the Reapars were telling the truth, does  Shep playing God or changing everyone's DNA sound like a good thing? BTW Synthesis sounds like what happend to the Prothens AKA Collectors!!!

Modifié par griot13, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:38 .

[GiarcYekrub]

Evil is a fantasy construct

[Wayning_Star]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Why would the Destroy ending exist at all if it were truly the bad one as it's made out to be? If the other two endings end in peace and prosperity, why would there be a third "bad" option? Well that's because the Catalyst is trying to persuade you to believe that destroying the Reapers is not a good choice. The Reapers most well known qualities are the ability to change a persons beliefs, and deception.

I guess permitting others to decieve themselves is a form of deception, in that case, the reapers are experts.

(basis for indoctrination, self deception/ego plays..)

[Wayning_Star]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Evil is a fantasy construct

i. e. , means to an end...

[Wayning_Star]

griot13 wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Im not indoctrinated. Harbinger does not tell me what to do. I pick control or Synthesis because I believe its the right choice.

In all seriousness. The extended endings shows that the Reaper AI did not lie. How do explain that?

Indoctrination does not take differct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persaude you till beliveing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren)...Personally I don't think a picture montage is a enough to make me belive the Catalyst!

What about the fact that the Catalyst appears in the form of the little boy which makes no sense unless the Reapers were in Sheps head.... and by some small chance if the Reapars were telling the truth, does  Shep playing God or changing everyone's DNA sound like a good thing? BTW Synthesis sounds like what happend to the Prothens AKA Collectors!!!

being in sheps head isn't a constant, as we don't know what it would be like if they're in someone elses head.

It's really just another form of interaction, abused it could be indoctrination,but it's not ALL about indoctrination or the dreaded IT...

[ElSuperGecko]

Wayning_Star wrote...
inaccurate, as they contain life and their DNA of past harvests. Their intellect it's self is from past civilizations.

No.

Inaccurate, merely self-justifying headcanon and wishful thinking.

[GiarcYekrub]

Wayning_Star wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...
Evil is a fantasy construct

i. e. , means to an end...

Don't know what you mean by that, but its absurd to talk in absolutes of Good and Evil, Its the many shades of Gray is of Sci Fi that Mass Effect was built on

[skate4tacos96]

Hazegurl wrote...

Destroy was added but downplayed heavily by the reaper AI. He even implies that you would die if you use it. Now if you are a renegade you may shy away from that option especially if you care more about your own life than everyone else. If you are paragon and don't mind giving your life to kill the reapers, The reaper AI further deceives you by painting it red. A clear renegade option. Destroy is meant to deceive you in two ways.

Destroy is the only ending where you possibly survive! It's not deceiving you in any way. I picked Destroy because I felt that it was what Shepard had set out to do from the start. I destroyed the Reapers for the same reason I destroyed the collector based; I did not want anyone to possess such power, including myself.

Modifié par skate4tacos96, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:48 .

[BleedingUranium]

Indoctrination, by definiton, is willingly aligning yourself with the Reapers' goals.

Starchild is the leader of the Reapers, he tells you this.

Starchild's goal is Synthesis, he tells you this.


Therefore, regardless of Bioware's intention and regardless of the Indoctrination Theory, by choosing Synthesis, you have become indoctrinated.

This is a fact.

[Wayning_Star]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
inaccurate, as they contain life and their DNA of past harvests. Their intellect it's self is from past civilizations.

No.

Inaccurate, merely self-justifying headcanon and wishful thinking.

Mordin is on a cyborg descriptor, husks, not reaperships. He'd have no way of describing that, as he's not been privy to the classification.

The DNA is present within reaperships hulls and the conscious minds of harvested being, as they're the ship intellect, nations independent, but shackled by the catalyst.

(well, if the catalyst can be deceptive, then he/it'd learn the ropes off organics..lol)

[skate4tacos96]

Also I think the only reason that the Destroy option is depicted as red, is because explosions/destruction is more closely associated with Renegade Shep.

[griot13]

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Im not indoctrinated. Harbinger does not tell me what to do. I pick control or Synthesis because I believe its the right choice.

In all seriousness. The extended endings shows that the Reaper AI did not lie. How do explain that?

Indoctrination does not take differct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persaude you till beliveing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren)...Personally I don't think a picture montage is a enough to make me belive the Catalyst!

What about the fact that the Catalyst appears in the form of the little boy which makes no sense unless the Reapers were in Sheps head.... and by some small chance if the Reapars were telling the truth, does  Shep playing God or changing everyone's DNA sound like a good thing? BTW Synthesis sounds like what happend to the Prothens AKA Collectors!!!

being in sheps head isn't a constant, as we don't know what it would be like if they're in someone elses head.

It's really just another form of interaction, abused it could be indoctrination,but it's not ALL about indoctrination or the dreaded IT...

Have you played Leviathan? If the Reapars mastered what they could do I would think so... and what about my other points?

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indoctrination, by definiton, is willingly aligning yourself with the Reapers' goals.

Starchild is the leader of the Reapers, he tells you this.

Starchild's goal is Synthesis, he tells you this.


Therefore, regardless of Bioware's intention and regardless of the Indoctrination Theory, by choosing Synthesis, you have become indoctrinated.

This is a fact.

if indoctrinated,you do not have a choice, so the fact of choosing synthesis is being indoctrinated cancels it's self out.

really tho, its not a fact at all, that's the point of this exercise. The catalyst didn't author the choices menu. So it's apparent that it's not as in control as first thought. With the inclusion of the crucible, its leeway is altered, or superceded?

[skate4tacos96]

I disagree Wayning_Star. I think each Reaper is forced to behave by the Catalyst's/Harbinger's way of thinking. A civilization's genetic information is the only thing being preserved by Reapers.

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indoctrination, by definiton, is willingly aligning yourself with the Reapers' goals.

Starchild is the leader of the Reapers, he tells you this.

Starchild's goal is Synthesis, he tells you this.


Therefore, regardless of Bioware's intention and regardless of the Indoctrination Theory, by choosing Synthesis, you have become indoctrinated.

This is a fact.

if indoctrinated,you do not have a choice, so the fact of choosing synthesis is being indoctrinated cancels it's self out.

really tho, its not a fact at all, that's the point of this exercise. The catalyst didn't author the choices menu. So it's apparent that it's not as in control as first thought. With the inclusion of the crucible, its leeway is altered, or superceded?

Now you're just wrong, indoctrination is by definition a choice. It's not "you're indoctrinated so you pick synthesis" it's "the act of picking synthesis means you are now indoctrinated". The moment you decided you wanted Synthesis was the moment you became indoctrinated, I spelled it out very clearly for you.

Whoever made the Crucible is irrelevant.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:59 .

[GiarcYekrub]

Destroy is the Genocide option, thats why its concidered the Renegade option, just as it was with the Rachni Queen, the colours for me are irrelevent, I prefer Synthsis to Control as I see it as the best option, all that power shouldn't be given to one person, even Shep. IMO

[Wayning_Star]

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Im not indoctrinated. Harbinger does not tell me what to do. I pick control or Synthesis because I believe its the right choice.

In all seriousness. The extended endings shows that the Reaper AI did not lie. How do explain that?

Indoctrination does not take differct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persaude you till beliveing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren)...Personally I don't think a picture montage is a enough to make me belive the Catalyst!

What about the fact that the Catalyst appears in the form of the little boy which makes no sense unless the Reapers were in Sheps head.... and by some small chance if the Reapars were telling the truth, does  Shep playing God or changing everyone's DNA sound like a good thing? BTW Synthesis sounds like what happend to the Prothens AKA Collectors!!!

being in sheps head isn't a constant, as we don't know what it would be like if they're in someone elses head.

It's really just another form of interaction, abused it could be indoctrination,but it's not ALL about indoctrination or the dreaded IT...

Have you played Leviathan? If the Reapars mastered what they could do I would think so... and what about my other points?

We cannot choose something that is chosen for us. We can only do that what we know is correct with what information that we hold as being true. What sounds like doens't make be like, in other words.

Many if not most confuse synthesis with cyborg. Synthesis is more of a intellectual sharing as opposed to physical cross mapping. The only 'hard wired' application to it is subliminal as well as sub molecular. The actual science of it is as mysterious as the facts behind it's need. This leads to the 'best guess' scenerio.

[ElSuperGecko]

Wayning_Star wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
inaccurate, as they contain life and their DNA of past harvests. Their intellect it's self is from past civilizations.

No.

Inaccurate, merely self-justifying headcanon and wishful thinking.

Mordin is on a cyborg descriptor, husks, not reaperships. He'd have no way of describing that, as he's not been privy to the classification.

The DNA is present within reaperships hulls and the conscious minds of harvested being, as they're the ship intellect, nations independent, but shackled by the catalyst.

(well, if the catalyst can be deceptive, then he/it'd learn the ropes off organics..lol)

Inaccurate.  You have no way of knowing that the Reaperships contain and retain the conciousness of the individual species they were created from.  This is simply blind hope and self-serving headcanon.

The evidence we DO have however suggests that the Reapers are at best, mindless tools (exhibited by the Collectors, Husks and other Reaper organic/synthetic hybrids as Mordin describes above), and at worst malevolent, unfeeling, emotionless monstrousities (refer to our encounters with Harbinger, Sovereign and the Catalyst itself).

[skate4tacos96]

Indoctrination is NOT mind control. You are not doing anything against your will. Indoctrination is very similar to inception. You are planting a seed in someone's mind that makes them WANT to help the Reapers. The individual believes that they have consciously made the decision to help the Reapers without any outside influence. Indoctrination can be avoided, it's just extremely hard to tell your own thoughts from the Reaper's.