301 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Destroy is the Genocide option, thats why its concidered the Renegade option, just as it was with the Rachni Queen, the colours for me are irrelevent, I prefer Synthsis to Control as I see it as the best option, all that power shouldn't be given to one person, even Shep. IMO

Destroy is less genocide than Arrival, since you played that card.

The Geth and EDI are soldiers (yes, all of them, that's how Geth work) who said they are willing to die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers. They die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers.

The 300,000 people on Aratoht were civilians, non-combatants, who were completely oblivious to what was going to happen and had at no time consented to dying. They die to slow the Reapers down a bit.

[Wayning_Star]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Destroy is the Genocide option, thats why its concidered the Renegade option, just as it was with the Rachni Queen, the colours for me are irrelevent, I prefer Synthsis to Control as I see it as the best option, all that power shouldn't be given to one person, even Shep. IMO

Sheps been chosen to make the call either way, so the ultimate power is Sheps, even more than simple control choice.

The MEU is ok with any choice, as they've decided what ever Shep thinks is acceptable risk.


I went with synthesis for similar reasons and he fact of the Leviathan reemerging as apex makes me nervous... They'd probably take all tech away from thralls, that is, limit their ability to utilize it in any event. Wipe out any other who'd try and maybe be a threat to them/their apexness...compete,etc.

[JBPBRC]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Indoctrination is NOT mind control. You are not doing anything against your will. Indoctrination is very similar to inception. You are planting a seed in someone's mind that makes them WANT to help the Reapers. The individual believes that they have consciously made the decision to help the Reapers without any outside influence. Indoctrination can be avoided, it's just extremely hard to tell your own thoughts from the Reaper's.

So, in other words, mind control.

Putting thoughts in people's heads, planting seeds that otherwise would never have been there, influencing minds, etc. etc.

[BleedingUranium]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Indoctrination is NOT mind control. You are not doing anything against your will. Indoctrination is very similar to inception. You are planting a seed in someone's mind that makes them WANT to help the Reapers. The individual believes that they have consciously made the decision to help the Reapers without any outside influence. Indoctrination can be avoided, it's just extremely hard to tell your own thoughts from the Reaper's.

Yes, indoctrination is almost identical to inception. No control at all.

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Destroy is the Genocide option, thats why its concidered the Renegade option, just as it was with the Rachni Queen, the colours for me are irrelevent, I prefer Synthsis to Control as I see it as the best option, all that power shouldn't be given to one person, even Shep. IMO

Destroy is less genocide than Arrival, since you played that card.

The Geth and EDI are soldiers (yes, all of them, that's how Geth work) who said they are willing to die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers. They die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers.

The 300,000 people on Aratoht were civilians, non-combatants, who were completely oblivious to what was going to happen and had at no time consented to dying. They die to slow the Reapers down a bit.

but.. if you don't destroy the technology and limit the viability of the Leviathan, the victory will be short lived, if at all. We don't have a clue as to how many Levi survived their harvest and how many were born out of their exile.

There are tons of those indoctro orbs out there and many races already enthralled. What a mess that is...

[griot13]

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Im not indoctrinated. Harbinger does not tell me what to do. I pick control or Synthesis because I believe its the right choice.

In all seriousness. The extended endings shows that the Reaper AI did not lie. How do explain that?

Indoctrination does not take differct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persaude you till beliveing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren)...Personally I don't think a picture montage is a enough to make me belive the Catalyst!

What about the fact that the Catalyst appears in the form of the little boy which makes no sense unless the Reapers were in Sheps head.... and by some small chance if the Reapars were telling the truth, does  Shep playing God or changing everyone's DNA sound like a good thing? BTW Synthesis sounds like what happend to the Prothens AKA Collectors!!!

being in sheps head isn't a constant, as we don't know what it would be like if they're in someone elses head.

It's really just another form of interaction, abused it could be indoctrination,but it's not ALL about indoctrination or the dreaded IT...

Have you played Leviathan? If the Reapars mastered what they could do I would think so... and what about my other points?

We cannot choose something that is chosen for us. We can only do that what we know is correct with what information that we hold as being true. What sounds like doens't make be like, in other words.

Many if not most confuse synthesis with cyborg. Synthesis is more of a intellectual sharing as opposed to physical cross mapping. The only 'hard wired' application to it is subliminal as well as sub molecular. The actual science of it is as mysterious as the facts behind it's need. This leads to the 'best guess' scenerio.

Assumptions now? I don't remember Casper the genocidal ghost saying that...But what I do know is any body who has supported reaper goals became Indoctrinated.

[Wayning_Star]

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Im not indoctrinated. Harbinger does not tell me what to do. I pick control or Synthesis because I believe its the right choice.

In all seriousness. The extended endings shows that the Reaper AI did not lie. How do explain that?

Indoctrination does not take differct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persaude you till beliveing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren)...Personally I don't think a picture montage is a enough to make me belive the Catalyst!

What about the fact that the Catalyst appears in the form of the little boy which makes no sense unless the Reapers were in Sheps head.... and by some small chance if the Reapars were telling the truth, does  Shep playing God or changing everyone's DNA sound like a good thing? BTW Synthesis sounds like what happend to the Prothens AKA Collectors!!!

being in sheps head isn't a constant, as we don't know what it would be like if they're in someone elses head.

It's really just another form of interaction, abused it could be indoctrination,but it's not ALL about indoctrination or the dreaded IT...

Have you played Leviathan? If the Reapars mastered what they could do I would think so... and what about my other points?

We cannot choose something that is chosen for us. We can only do that what we know is correct with what information that we hold as being true. What sounds like doens't make be like, in other words.

Many if not most confuse synthesis with cyborg. Synthesis is more of a intellectual sharing as opposed to physical cross mapping. The only 'hard wired' application to it is subliminal as well as sub molecular. The actual science of it is as mysterious as the facts behind it's need. This leads to the 'best guess' scenerio.

Assumptions now? I don't remember Casper the genocidal ghost saying that...But what I do know is any body who has supported reaper goals became Indoctrinated.

the reaper goal is harvest, the catalyst goal is much different.

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Destroy is the Genocide option, thats why its concidered the Renegade option, just as it was with the Rachni Queen, the colours for me are irrelevent, I prefer Synthsis to Control as I see it as the best option, all that power shouldn't be given to one person, even Shep. IMO

Destroy is less genocide than Arrival, since you played that card.

The Geth and EDI are soldiers (yes, all of them, that's how Geth work) who said they are willing to die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers. They die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers.

The 300,000 people on Aratoht were civilians, non-combatants, who were completely oblivious to what was going to happen and had at no time consented to dying. They die to slow the Reapers down a bit.

but.. if you don't destroy the technology and limit the viability of the Leviathan, the victory will be short lived, if at all. We don't have a clue as to how many Levi survived their harvest and how many were born out of their exile.

There are tons of those indoctro orbs out there and many races already enthralled. What a mess that is...

You really need to lay off with the Leviathan stuff. There's no way they could pose a threat. They have to live underwater and can't do anything themselves, and their control is exceedingly obvious, and given that we can shield their orbs and know what to look for, they can't do a thing.

As for killing them? Bombard the planet from orbit until there's nothing left, or tow it into it's sun, they won't be able to do anything about it.

[griot13]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indoctrination, by definiton, is willingly aligning yourself with the Reapers' goals.

Starchild is the leader of the Reapers, he tells you this.

Starchild's goal is Synthesis, he tells you this.


Therefore, regardless of Bioware's intention and regardless of the Indoctrination Theory, by choosing Synthesis, you have become indoctrinated.

This is a fact.

if indoctrinated,you do not have a choice, so the fact of choosing synthesis is being indoctrinated cancels it's self out.

really tho, its not a fact at all, that's the point of this exercise. The catalyst didn't author the choices menu. So it's apparent that it's not as in control as first thought. With the inclusion of the crucible, its leeway is altered, or superceded?

Now you're just wrong, indoctrination is by definition a choice. It's not "you're indoctrinated so you pick synthesis" it's "the act of picking synthesis means you are now indoctrinated". The moment you decided you wanted Synthesis was the moment you became indoctrinated, I spelled it out very clearly for you.

Whoever made the Crucible is irrelevant.

[BleedingUranium]

Name one character that supported the Reapers or their methods that wasn't indoctrinated.

[GiarcYekrub]

BleedingUranium wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Destroy is the Genocide option, thats why its concidered the Renegade option, just as it was with the Rachni Queen, the colours for me are irrelevent, I prefer Synthsis to Control as I see it as the best option, all that power shouldn't be given to one person, even Shep. IMO

Destroy is less genocide than Arrival, since you played that card.

The Geth and EDI are soldiers (yes, all of them, that's how Geth work) who said they are willing to die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers. They die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers.

The 300,000 people on Aratoht were civilians, non-combatants, who were completely oblivious to what was going to happen and had at no time consented to dying. They die to slow the Reapers down a bit.

With the Aratoht Situation Shepard didn't have a choice. This time there is one

[Wayning_Star]

griot13 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indoctrination, by definiton, is willingly aligning yourself with the Reapers' goals.

Starchild is the leader of the Reapers, he tells you this.

Starchild's goal is Synthesis, he tells you this.


Therefore, regardless of Bioware's intention and regardless of the Indoctrination Theory, by choosing Synthesis, you have become indoctrinated.

This is a fact.

if indoctrinated,you do not have a choice, so the fact of choosing synthesis is being indoctrinated cancels it's self out.

really tho, its not a fact at all, that's the point of this exercise. The catalyst didn't author the choices menu. So it's apparent that it's not as in control as first thought. With the inclusion of the crucible, its leeway is altered, or superceded?

Now you're just wrong, indoctrination is by definition a choice. It's not "you're indoctrinated so you pick synthesis" it's "the act of picking synthesis means you are now indoctrinated". The moment you decided you wanted Synthesis was the moment you became indoctrinated, I spelled it out very clearly for you.

Whoever made the Crucible is irrelevant.

i hate to say it, but you neeeeed to reanalyze those statements...they're in contradiction.

[dreamgazer]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Games don't deceive players.

Yeah, they do.

Not only that, but ME3---assuming it did so---would be one of several games released in 2012 that intentionally deceived players. 

[BleedingUranium]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Destroy is the Genocide option, thats why its concidered the Renegade option, just as it was with the Rachni Queen, the colours for me are irrelevent, I prefer Synthsis to Control as I see it as the best option, all that power shouldn't be given to one person, even Shep. IMO

Destroy is less genocide than Arrival, since you played that card.

The Geth and EDI are soldiers (yes, all of them, that's how Geth work) who said they are willing to die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers. They die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers.

The 300,000 people on Aratoht were civilians, non-combatants, who were completely oblivious to what was going to happen and had at no time consented to dying. They die to slow the Reapers down a bit.

With the Aratoht Situation Shepard didn't have a choice. This time there is one

There is only one choice where the Reapers no longer exist.

There is only one choice that is not the Reapers' goal.

There is only one choice.

[griot13]

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Im not indoctrinated. Harbinger does not tell me what to do. I pick control or Synthesis because I believe its the right choice.

In all seriousness. The extended endings shows that the Reaper AI did not lie. How do explain that?

Indoctrination does not take differct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persaude you till beliveing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren)...Personally I don't think a picture montage is a enough to make me belive the Catalyst!

What about the fact that the Catalyst appears in the form of the little boy which makes no sense unless the Reapers were in Sheps head.... and by some small chance if the Reapars were telling the truth, does  Shep playing God or changing everyone's DNA sound like a good thing? BTW Synthesis sounds like what happend to the Prothens AKA Collectors!!!

being in sheps head isn't a constant, as we don't know what it would be like if they're in someone elses head.

It's really just another form of interaction, abused it could be indoctrination,but it's not ALL about indoctrination or the dreaded IT...

Have you played Leviathan? If the Reapars mastered what they could do I would think so... and what about my other points?

We cannot choose something that is chosen for us. We can only do that what we know is correct with what information that we hold as being true. What sounds like doens't make be like, in other words.

Many if not most confuse synthesis with cyborg. Synthesis is more of a intellectual sharing as opposed to physical cross mapping. The only 'hard wired' application to it is subliminal as well as sub molecular. The actual science of it is as mysterious as the facts behind it's need. This leads to the 'best guess' scenerio.

Assumptions now? I don't remember Casper the genocidal ghost saying that...But what I do know is any body who has supported reaper goals became Indoctrinated.

the reaper goal is harvest, the catalyst goal is much different.

Obviously you best freinds with Casper the Reapers leader... How can I argue against this?

[JBPBRC]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indoctrination, by definiton, is willingly aligning yourself with the Reapers' goals.

Starchild is the leader of the Reapers, he tells you this.

Starchild's goal is Synthesis, he tells you this.


Therefore, regardless of Bioware's intention and regardless of the Indoctrination Theory, by choosing Synthesis, you have become indoctrinated.

This is an fact.opinion.

Fixed.

[skate4tacos96]

JBPBRC wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Indoctrination is NOT mind control. You are not doing anything against your will. Indoctrination is very similar to inception. You are planting a seed in someone's mind that makes them WANT to help the Reapers. The individual believes that they have consciously made the decision to help the Reapers without any outside influence. Indoctrination can be avoided, it's just extremely hard to tell your own thoughts from the Reaper's.

So, in other words, mind control.

Putting thoughts in people's heads, planting seeds that otherwise would never have been there, influencing minds, etc. etc.

Nope! Still not mind control. Mind control dictates every action a person takes. The individual is not making conscious decisions. He is against his own will, being used for accomplishing someone else's goals. Reapers can only influence a persons way of thinking, to make them believe that helping the Reapers is a good decision and that they made this choice on their own.

Modifié par skate4tacos96, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:19 .

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Name one character that supported the Reapers or their methods that wasn't indoctrinated.

the Leviathan...

[3DandBeyond]

OP, the kid controls the reapers. They use indoctrination which is a form of deceit, in order to get people to do things they want them to do. People are forced to go against their own logic and feelings. Saren was told he would survive if he helped Sovereign, but do you think Sovereign was being truthful? And Sovereign said the reapers were autonomous; the kid says they aren't. Someone's lying or was being lied to.

The catalyst uses indoctrination to deceive. He knows TIM believes he can control the reapers and he made TIM think that, but he says that TIM's indoctrinated and can't control them. The Protheans had the same problem.

He isn't about full disclosure, either. None of the choices are fully explained, but even so there's a better than even chance the kid is not being truthful about them. His solution (the reapers) no longer works. Above all, he needs a working solution, so deceiving to achieve that is not something that you can rule out. He's killing to achieve it, so why is lying so unbelievable. It's like saying someone may be a killer, but a liar, no way. Really?

And he's not just your straight up current type of program as we know it today-he's supposed to be adaptable. A solution does not work and he adapts-he has done so in the past. He says this that no matter what he tried, the chaos would always return. That means that his solutions have changed in the past. In fact, they changed so that he believed the destruction of his creators was necessary. How did all that work out? He's the most inept stupid intelligence with the worst shackling ever, and yes it's very likely he could lie. EDI was capable of deception-she tried to pass herself off to people as a VI.

Huge space squids that are all about controlling (enthralling) people and that fear synthetics that keep killing people, created a synthetic that they do not control that then kills them? Brilliant.

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Name one character that supported the Reapers or their methods that wasn't indoctrinated.

the Leviathan...

Leviathan didn't support the reapers or their methods, though.

[StoneSwords]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

 The extended endings show that the reaper AI did infact speak the truth. Why are some people hellbent on still saying that the reaper AI is deceiving you to take control or Synthesis?

Control ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Synthesis ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Destroy only resets everything and puts the galaxy back to square one.

Some people say the Reaper AI is trying to "manipulate" you into going anything but destroy, but he is merely giving advice - and with good reason. Controlling the Reapers and Synthesis both leads to good endings. Only bad ending is destroy imo, with this - the galaxy has no ensurance against further war or synthetics as a new threat later on. 

Also bear in mind that the reapers arent evil. They did what they were programmed to do. They dont take pleasure or grievance in destroying civilizations. In their eyes they are the guardians of the universe, and races "destroyed" are actually kept "alive" through reapers. 

The reaper AI has no motivations or malevolent intent. And Control and Synthesis leads to positive outcomes. The "Shepards mission to destroy the reapers" argument for taking destroy is narrowminded and short sighted imo.

As it stands, the reaper AI spoke the truth. Whats with the people saying he deceives and tries to manipulate you? He didnt. And destroy ending still stays as the least good ending imo. Choosing destroy is something I imagine a selfish and childish renegade I-want-revenge Shepard would pick.

Remember the speeches Sovereign and Harbinger gave Shepard?  They made it pretty clear that they disdain and look down on all organics, and that we were nothing to them.  There's nothing noble about genocide on a galactic scale.  And the fact that you call Starkid the Reaper AI, which who we've been fighting for the whole triliogy answers your question for you

[Wayning_Star]

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Im not indoctrinated. Harbinger does not tell me what to do. I pick control or Synthesis because I believe its the right choice.

In all seriousness. The extended endings shows that the Reaper AI did not lie. How do explain that?

Indoctrination does not take differct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persaude you till beliveing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren)...Personally I don't think a picture montage is a enough to make me belive the Catalyst!

What about the fact that the Catalyst appears in the form of the little boy which makes no sense unless the Reapers were in Sheps head.... and by some small chance if the Reapars were telling the truth, does  Shep playing God or changing everyone's DNA sound like a good thing? BTW Synthesis sounds like what happend to the Prothens AKA Collectors!!!

being in sheps head isn't a constant, as we don't know what it would be like if they're in someone elses head.

It's really just another form of interaction, abused it could be indoctrination,but it's not ALL about indoctrination or the dreaded IT...

Have you played Leviathan? If the Reapars mastered what they could do I would think so... and what about my other points?

We cannot choose something that is chosen for us. We can only do that what we know is correct with what information that we hold as being true. What sounds like doens't make be like, in other words.

Many if not most confuse synthesis with cyborg. Synthesis is more of a intellectual sharing as opposed to physical cross mapping. The only 'hard wired' application to it is subliminal as well as sub molecular. The actual science of it is as mysterious as the facts behind it's need. This leads to the 'best guess' scenerio.

Assumptions now? I don't remember Casper the genocidal ghost saying that...But what I do know is any body who has supported reaper goals became Indoctrinated.

the reaper goal is harvest, the catalyst goal is much different.

Obviously you best freinds with Casper the Reapers leader... How can I argue against this?

No, I'm Shepard and intend to save the MEU from it's self..lol

[skate4tacos96]

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Name one character that supported the Reapers or their methods that wasn't indoctrinated.

the Leviathan...

The Leviathan certainly did not support the Reapers! They were sworn enemies!

[GiarcYekrub]

BleedingUranium wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Destroy is the Genocide option, thats why its concidered the Renegade option, just as it was with the Rachni Queen, the colours for me are irrelevent, I prefer Synthsis to Control as I see it as the best option, all that power shouldn't be given to one person, even Shep. IMO

Destroy is less genocide than Arrival, since you played that card.

The Geth and EDI are soldiers (yes, all of them, that's how Geth work) who said they are willing to die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers. They die to ensure the destruction of the Reapers.

The 300,000 people on Aratoht were civilians, non-combatants, who were completely oblivious to what was going to happen and had at no time consented to dying. They die to slow the Reapers down a bit.

With the Aratoht Situation Shepard didn't have a choice. This time there is one

There is only one choice where the Reapers no longer exist.

There is only one choice that is not the Reapers' goal.

There is only one choice.

Shepards goal was always to stop reapers and to achieve peace all 3 choices achieve this, Synthsis for me is the only sensible option

[JBPBRC]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Indoctrination is NOT mind control. You are not doing anything against your will. Indoctrination is very similar to inception. You are planting a seed in someone's mind that makes them WANT to help the Reapers. The individual believes that they have consciously made the decision to help the Reapers without any outside influence. Indoctrination can be avoided, it's just extremely hard to tell your own thoughts from the Reaper's.

So, in other words, mind control.

Putting thoughts in people's heads, planting seeds that otherwise would never have been there, influencing minds, etc. etc.

Nope! Still not mind control. Mind control dictates every action a person takes. The individual is not making conscious decisions. He is against his own will, being used for accomplishing someone else's goals. Reapers can only influence a persons way of thinking, to make them believe that helping the Reapers is a good decision and that they made this choice on their own.

I beg to disagree. Its not *total* mind control, but it is a form of mind control nonetheless. Forcefully planting thoughts and directions that are so powerful that the thrall themselves think its their own idea and merrily go on their way murdering innocent civilians when they wouldn't have done so in the first place? And all of this done via an active signal coming from the Reaper itself?  Its mind control.