301 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

StoneSwords wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

 The extended endings show that the reaper AI did infact speak the truth. Why are some people hellbent on still saying that the reaper AI is deceiving you to take control or Synthesis?

Control ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Synthesis ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Destroy only resets everything and puts the galaxy back to square one.

Some people say the Reaper AI is trying to "manipulate" you into going anything but destroy, but he is merely giving advice - and with good reason. Controlling the Reapers and Synthesis both leads to good endings. Only bad ending is destroy imo, with this - the galaxy has no ensurance against further war or synthetics as a new threat later on. 

Also bear in mind that the reapers arent evil. They did what they were programmed to do. They dont take pleasure or grievance in destroying civilizations. In their eyes they are the guardians of the universe, and races "destroyed" are actually kept "alive" through reapers. 

The reaper AI has no motivations or malevolent intent. And Control and Synthesis leads to positive outcomes. The "Shepards mission to destroy the reapers" argument for taking destroy is narrowminded and short sighted imo.

As it stands, the reaper AI spoke the truth. Whats with the people saying he deceives and tries to manipulate you? He didnt. And destroy ending still stays as the least good ending imo. Choosing destroy is something I imagine a selfish and childish renegade I-want-revenge Shepard would pick.

Remember the speeches Sovereign and Harbinger gave Shepard?  They made it pretty clear that they disdain and look down on all organics, and that we were nothing to them.  There's nothing noble about genocide on a galactic scale.  And the fact that you call Starkid the Reaper AI, which who we've been fighting for the whole triliogy answers your question for you

who cares what the reapers thinks? I'm concerned about what the catalyst does and where the Leviathan are headed. The interchange between Sovy and Harby with Shep is just their harvest mentality on the push. They're shackeled by the catalyst, but are nations independent of the catalyst, so their intentions are subject to that. Consider the source and forget about it... all those intellect locked into the hulls are going quite mad. We must free them, and by NOT killing them off the rest of the way either.

[3DandBeyond]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Indoctrination is NOT mind control. You are not doing anything against your will. Indoctrination is very similar to inception. You are planting a seed in someone's mind that makes them WANT to help the Reapers. The individual believes that they have consciously made the decision to help the Reapers without any outside influence. Indoctrination can be avoided, it's just extremely hard to tell your own thoughts from the Reaper's.

So, in other words, mind control.

Putting thoughts in people's heads, planting seeds that otherwise would never have been there, influencing minds, etc. etc.

Nope! Still not mind control. Mind control dictates every action a person takes. The individual is not making conscious decisions. He is against his own will, being used for accomplishing someone else's goals. Reapers can only influence a persons way of thinking, to make them believe that helping the Reapers is a good decision and that they made this choice on their own.

No, mind control doesn't dictate every action.  It doesn't decide when the person should do all bodily functions or a lot of things.  It depends on the mind control.  Some could be used for a specific tasks, such as brainwashing (Manchurian Candidate stuff).  Indoctrination makes a person think helping the reapers is a good decision-the kid even says TIM was controlled by them, he was indoctrinated, and while indoctrinated TIM was basically told he could control the reapers, but that was untrue.  Making someone believe something that is not true is a form of lying as well as mind control.

Indoctrination does control certain thoughts.  Even if the control is about changing your opinion on something, that is still mind control.  You can't get around that.  And even if you will never believe that, it also does tell people that things that are not true, are true.  That's lying.

[BleedingUranium]

JBPBRC wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Indoctrination is NOT mind control. You are not doing anything against your will. Indoctrination is very similar to inception. You are planting a seed in someone's mind that makes them WANT to help the Reapers. The individual believes that they have consciously made the decision to help the Reapers without any outside influence. Indoctrination can be avoided, it's just extremely hard to tell your own thoughts from the Reaper's.

So, in other words, mind control.

Putting thoughts in people's heads, planting seeds that otherwise would never have been there, influencing minds, etc. etc.

Nope! Still not mind control. Mind control dictates every action a person takes. The individual is not making conscious decisions. He is against his own will, being used for accomplishing someone else's goals. Reapers can only influence a persons way of thinking, to make them believe that helping the Reapers is a good decision and that they made this choice on their own.

I beg to disagree. Its not *total* mind control, but it is a form of mind control nonetheless. Forcefully planting thoughts and directions that are so powerful that the thrall themselves think its their own idea and merrily go on their way murdering innocent civilians when they wouldn't have done so in the first place? And all of this done via an active signal coming from the Reaper itself?  Its mind control.

Again, not control, that's influence. Similar, but also very different.

Leviathan Enthrallment is control without influence. Reaper Indoctrination is influence without control.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Name one character that supported the Reapers or their methods that wasn't indoctrinated.

the Leviathan...

Leviathan didn't support the reapers or their methods, though.

they did say they were accomplishing their programmed goal, via the catalyst of course.. apples'n oranges anyone..lol

[Brovikk Rasputin]

I don't know, OP. To be quite honest, I think some people look way too far into some of this stuff. You've trusted all kinds of weird dodgy personalities throughout the trilogy, and suddenly The Catalyst is a problem? Nah. I don't buy it.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Indoctrination is NOT mind control. You are not doing anything against your will. Indoctrination is very similar to inception. You are planting a seed in someone's mind that makes them WANT to help the Reapers. The individual believes that they have consciously made the decision to help the Reapers without any outside influence. Indoctrination can be avoided, it's just extremely hard to tell your own thoughts from the Reaper's.

So, in other words, mind control.

Putting thoughts in people's heads, planting seeds that otherwise would never have been there, influencing minds, etc. etc.

Nope! Still not mind control. Mind control dictates every action a person takes. The individual is not making conscious decisions. He is against his own will, being used for accomplishing someone else's goals. Reapers can only influence a persons way of thinking, to make them believe that helping the Reapers is a good decision and that they made this choice on their own.

No, mind control doesn't dictate every action.  It doesn't decide when the person should do all bodily functions or a lot of things.  It depends on the mind control.  Some could be used for a specific tasks, such as brainwashing (Manchurian Candidate stuff).  Indoctrination makes a person think helping the reapers is a good decision-the kid even says TIM was controlled by them, he was indoctrinated, and while indoctrinated TIM was basically told he could control the reapers, but that was untrue.  Making someone believe something that is not true is a form of lying as well as mind control.

Indoctrination does control certain thoughts.  Even if the control is about changing your opinion on something, that is still mind control.  You can't get around that.  And even if you will never believe that, it also does tell people that things that are not true, are true.  That's lying.

assuming 'intent' isn't solving a crime...

[ElSuperGecko]

Wayning_Star wrote...
The interchange between Sovy and Harby with Shep is just their harvest mentality on the push. They're shackeled by the catalyst, but are nations independent of the catalyst, so their intentions are subject to that...

...incorrect.  (speculative headcanon and wishful thinking unsupported by the in-game evidence).

And even if you were correct (you're not), what would happen when the Reapers became unshackled?  If each Reaper was made from one of the dominant races of each cycle, then how many of the Reapers would have been created from warlike or imperialistic races like the Krogan, Batarians or Protheans?

They're locked inside immortal, all but invunerable shells.  What happens when they're let loose and free of influence?  Will their warlike tendancies rearise?  And if so, what could possibly stop them?  And are they still capable of causing indoctrination?

Well done, you've unleashed an apex race of all-but invincible, mind controlling god-machines on the galaxy.  I for one welcome our new cuttlefish masters.

[Wayning_Star]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

I don't know, OP. To be quite honest, I think some people look way too far into some of this stuff. You've trusted all kinds of weird dodgy personalities throughout the trilogy, and suddenly The Catalyst is a problem? Nah. I don't buy it.

when the Leviathan are the base culprits, makes the catalsyt and pesky reapers merely a symptom of a much deeper rooted disease.

and folks worries about indoctrination, like a super space magicy end all be all...sheesh.

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Name one character that supported the Reapers or their methods that wasn't indoctrinated.

the Leviathan...

Leviathan didn't support the reapers or their methods, though.

they did say they were accomplishing their programmed goal, via the catalyst of course.. apples'n oranges anyone..lol

Even then, they had that mindset before the Reapers existed, so of course they're not indoctrinated by them. Besides, you think they're the next threat to the galaxy anyway, so is there and character that isn't a villain that supports the Reapers' methods?

[Wayning_Star]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
The interchange between Sovy and Harby with Shep is just their harvest mentality on the push. They're shackeled by the catalyst, but are nations independent of the catalyst, so their intentions are subject to that...

...incorrect.  (speculative headcanon and wishful thinking unsupported by the in-game evidence).

And even if you were correct (you're not), what would happen when the Reapers became unshackled?  If each Reaper was made from one of the dominant races of each cycle, then how many of the Reapers would have been created from warlike or imperialistic races like the Krogan, Batarians or Protheans?

They're locked inside immortal, all but invunerable shells.  What happens when they're let loose and free of influence?  Will their warlike tendancies rearise?  And if so, what could possibly stop them?  And are they still capable of causing indoctrination?

Well done, you've unleashed an apex race of all-but invincible, mind controlling god-machines on the galaxy.  I for one welcome our new cuttlefish masters.

Is communication important when fearing alternatives that you might miss during an important decsion making process?

[Wayning_Star]

tough crowd in here today.. I like that!!

[Gewehr_fr]

Hazegurl wrote...

Gewehr_fr wrote...

Yes I agree that what the catalyst AI says must be taken at face value, you have no choice but to trust it anyway.

However to say reapers aren't evil you must be either trolling or indoctrinated. They certainly don't perceive it as evil acts, they're just doing what they've been programmed for "when fire burns, is it war?", but facts are that they're killing everyone, turning men women and children of every civilization in the galaxy into glue or mindless zombies ground forces. Individuals are plain killed. Only their DNA is preserved which is useless, and also assumes the capital ship doesn't get destroyed in future cycles.

The way I see reapers are abominations that must be destroyed no matter the cost. If the synthetics must one day or another inevitably takeover the galaxy, then so be it. I have not seen an evidence of this happening in this current cycle.

Right, besides reapers are not fire, they are not mother nature nor are they a natural event. They are created unatural beings that are in fact starting a war. They don't preserve life, they just know how to destory it. Good riddance.

I'm not saying the analogy is correct, but that's how the catalyst is using it. And since we can not counter-argument the reaper AI it seems like Shepard agrees to this comparison.

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Mass Effect is a Science Fiction story, there is no Good and Evil in Sci Fi(just differing agendas), thats the domain of Fantasy stories(like Star Wars)

Hmm right, but it's debatable whether Mass Effect belongs more to fantasy or science-fiction, probably still the latter but things such as biotics and element zero are quite fantasy-ish...

[skate4tacos96]

@JBPBRC You're still wrong. A person can also willingly defy indoctrination. It's not controlling an individual in any way shape or form. I guess by your book we also live in a world full of mind controlling tyrants because people can influence others to make a choice. If I was planning on buying a game, but my friend bought a different game than I wanted, would making the decision to buy the same game he did so we could play it together mean he's controlling my mind? Just because you influence a choice does not make you a mind controller...

[JBPBRC]

3DandBeyond wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Indoctrination is NOT mind control. You are not doing anything against your will. Indoctrination is very similar to inception. You are planting a seed in someone's mind that makes them WANT to help the Reapers. The individual believes that they have consciously made the decision to help the Reapers without any outside influence. Indoctrination can be avoided, it's just extremely hard to tell your own thoughts from the Reaper's.

So, in other words, mind control.

Putting thoughts in people's heads, planting seeds that otherwise would never have been there, influencing minds, etc. etc.

Nope! Still not mind control. Mind control dictates every action a person takes. The individual is not making conscious decisions. He is against his own will, being used for accomplishing someone else's goals. Reapers can only influence a persons way of thinking, to make them believe that helping the Reapers is a good decision and that they made this choice on their own.

No, mind control doesn't dictate every action.  It doesn't decide when the person should do all bodily functions or a lot of things.  It depends on the mind control.  Some could be used for a specific tasks, such as brainwashing (Manchurian Candidate stuff).  Indoctrination makes a person think helping the reapers is a good decision-the kid even says TIM was controlled by them, he was indoctrinated, and while indoctrinated TIM was basically told he could control the reapers, but that was untrue.  Making someone believe something that is not true is a form of lying as well as mind control.

Indoctrination does control certain thoughts.  Even if the control is about changing your opinion on something, that is still mind control.  You can't get around that.  And even if you will never believe that, it also does tell people that things that are not true, are true.  That's lying.

Ah yes. A better phrased example of what I was trying to talk about.

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...

who cares what the reapers thinks? I'm concerned about what the catalyst does and where the Leviathan are headed. The interchange between Sovy and Harby with Shep is just their harvest mentality on the push. They're shackeled by the catalyst, but are nations independent of the catalyst, so their intentions are subject to that. Consider the source and forget about it... all those intellect locked into the hulls are going quite mad. We must free them, and by NOT killing them off the rest of the way either.

Well prior to the end of ME3, I really did care what they think-they were cool, interesting, arrogant monsters with their own motives for killing.  The kid arrived and they were lap dogs or mindless fires burning with a special scalpel-like precision, used to cull a certain stage of advanced organic while leaving the less advanced behind.  So, they are the most precise cleansing fires ever in existence and they use the most horrendous way to rend body and mind from each other.  I couldn't care less what their overseer wants or needs to do.  I only know what I must do and I know that the minds or the thoughts contained within each reaper exists in a limbo state-I can never imagine my wanting to exist in such a place myself, so I know that what is best is to put an end to this crap on my terms, and not through some gift from some unknown person whose motives are completely unknown.

Who created the crucible?  The kid won't say.  But no one knew about the kid before Shepard got to the citadel-no one but Leviathan and they did not create the crucible.  The crucible interacts specifically with the kid-it changes him so it is able to change his programming.  Therefore whoever created it must have known the kid existed (the AI) and must have known how to re-program him.  The list of who knows that is very short.  No one up until the Protheans (except the kid, the reapers, and Leviathan) knew about the kid.  That along with the fact that the kid could be lying because he has been deceptive, makes the choices suspect. 

The slideshow and cutscenes that come after were only meant to console people who thought the relays destroyed the galaxy, and to provide a certain epilog to make people "feel" better, but they are laughable to me.  They don't show real consequences at all.  And the relays being damaged still should destroy the galaxy (based upon what Bioware put in the games-the codex).

[StoneSwords]

Wayning_Star wrote...

StoneSwords wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

 The extended endings show that the reaper AI did infact speak the truth. Why are some people hellbent on still saying that the reaper AI is deceiving you to take control or Synthesis?

Control ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Synthesis ends in peace and prosperity for the galaxy.
Destroy only resets everything and puts the galaxy back to square one.

Some people say the Reaper AI is trying to "manipulate" you into going anything but destroy, but he is merely giving advice - and with good reason. Controlling the Reapers and Synthesis both leads to good endings. Only bad ending is destroy imo, with this - the galaxy has no ensurance against further war or synthetics as a new threat later on. 

Also bear in mind that the reapers arent evil. They did what they were programmed to do. They dont take pleasure or grievance in destroying civilizations. In their eyes they are the guardians of the universe, and races "destroyed" are actually kept "alive" through reapers. 

The reaper AI has no motivations or malevolent intent. And Control and Synthesis leads to positive outcomes. The "Shepards mission to destroy the reapers" argument for taking destroy is narrowminded and short sighted imo.

As it stands, the reaper AI spoke the truth. Whats with the people saying he deceives and tries to manipulate you? He didnt. And destroy ending still stays as the least good ending imo. Choosing destroy is something I imagine a selfish and childish renegade I-want-revenge Shepard would pick.

Remember the speeches Sovereign and Harbinger gave Shepard?  They made it pretty clear that they disdain and look down on all organics, and that we were nothing to them.  There's nothing noble about genocide on a galactic scale.  And the fact that you call Starkid the Reaper AI, which who we've been fighting for the whole triliogy answers your question for you

who cares what the reapers thinks? I'm concerned about what the catalyst does and where the Leviathan are headed. The interchange between Sovy and Harby with Shep is just their harvest mentality on the push. They're shackeled by the catalyst, but are nations independent of the catalyst, so their intentions are subject to that. Consider the source and forget about it... all those intellect locked into the hulls are going quite mad. We must free them, and by NOT killing them off the rest of the way either.

Well, the thing about that is that they really shouldn't even have those personalities if they're just starkids puppets, which is the way the brat makes it seem on the crucible. I'm also curious as to where BW is headed with the Leviathans, if they even have anything in mind that is

[ElSuperGecko]

Wayning_Star wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
The interchange between Sovy and Harby with Shep is just their harvest mentality on the push. They're shackeled by the catalyst, but are nations independent of the catalyst, so their intentions are subject to that...

...incorrect.  (speculative headcanon and wishful thinking unsupported by the in-game evidence).

And even if you were correct (you're not), what would happen when the Reapers became unshackled?  If each Reaper was made from one of the dominant races of each cycle, then how many of the Reapers would have been created from warlike or imperialistic races like the Krogan, Batarians or Protheans?

They're locked inside immortal, all but invunerable shells.  What happens when they're let loose and free of influence?  Will their warlike tendancies rearise?  And if so, what could possibly stop them?  And are they still capable of causing indoctrination?

Well done, you've unleashed an apex race of all-but invincible, mind controlling god-machines on the galaxy.  I for one welcome our new cuttlefish masters.

Is communication important when fearing alternatives that you might miss during an important decsion making process?

Does sidestepping the issue help you feel better when presented with a line of questioning you find uncomfortable?

You answer your question - of course, but we don't have that luxury during the final decision, do we?  The only voice available to listen to is that of our sworn enemy, and it is being deliberately evasive.  We DO  however have historical evidence and the knowledge we have gained of the Reapers and their tactics.  They are manipulative.  They are deceitful. They see themselves as superior, all-knowing and have little to no regard for organic life, other than for raw materials in the creation of more of their kind.  They unbound by such concepts as loyalty, honour, sympathy, compassion or love.   They enforce their will on others, and use them to do their bidding.

So - knowing all this - why would you willingly run into the arms of their creator, happily accept it's unproven assertations and obligingly act out it's will?

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:41 .

[skate4tacos96]

So I guess everytime someone tells me how great a game is and I decide to go out and buy it, I'm being mind controlled. Because according to you, influencing someone's actions is clearly mind control.

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Name one character that supported the Reapers or their methods that wasn't indoctrinated.

the Leviathan...

Leviathan didn't support the reapers or their methods, though.

they did say they were accomplishing their programmed goal, via the catalyst of course.. apples'n oranges anyone..lol

Even then, they had that mindset before the Reapers existed, so of course they're not indoctrinated by them. Besides, you think they're the next threat to the galaxy anyway, so is there and character that isn't a villain that supports the Reapers' methods?

Well, Shep does things that are along the same line as the reapers, in the event of their arrival, to limit it, as many have stated the 'arrival' mission. Shep, apparently, has to become more machine minded, to accept those hard of choices to make.

But I fail to understand how this equates with being indoctrinated, especially during the final choices sequences. It would seem as if synthesis is equated with being indoctrinated, so as that is to equal being a villian by choosing synthesis because all villians are indoctrinated.

The leviathan couldn't have that same mindset before the reapers existed, they'd have no knowledge of the reapers, so no intuitive inititive in that regard. They were reflecting only on the catalyst progess to accomplish its programmed goal of ending chaos.

The Geth are the only other beings that were 'with' the reapers, and they're impervious to indoctrination.

[StoneSwords]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

who cares what the reapers thinks? I'm concerned about what the catalyst does and where the Leviathan are headed. The interchange between Sovy and Harby with Shep is just their harvest mentality on the push. They're shackeled by the catalyst, but are nations independent of the catalyst, so their intentions are subject to that. Consider the source and forget about it... all those intellect locked into the hulls are going quite mad. We must free them, and by NOT killing them off the rest of the way either.

Well prior to the end of ME3, I really did care what they think-they were cool, interesting, arrogant monsters with their own motives for killing.  The kid arrived and they were lap dogs or mindless fires burning with a special scalpel-like precision, used to cull a certain stage of advanced organic while leaving the less advanced behind.  So, they are the most precise cleansing fires ever in existence and they use the most horrendous way to rend body and mind from each other.  I couldn't care less what their overseer wants or needs to do.  I only know what I must do and I know that the minds or the thoughts contained within each reaper exists in a limbo state-I can never imagine my wanting to exist in such a place myself, so I know that what is best is to put an end to this crap on my terms, and not through some gift from some unknown person whose motives are completely unknown.

Who created the crucible?  The kid won't say.  But no one knew about the kid before Shepard got to the citadel-no one but Leviathan and they did not create the crucible.  The crucible interacts specifically with the kid-it changes him so it is able to change his programming.  Therefore whoever created it must have known the kid existed (the AI) and must have known how to re-program him.  The list of who knows that is very short.  No one up until the Protheans (except the kid, the reapers, and Leviathan) knew about the kid.  That along with the fact that the kid could be lying because he has been deceptive, makes the choices suspect. 

The slideshow and cutscenes that come after were only meant to console people who thought the relays destroyed the galaxy, and to provide a certain epilog to make people "feel" better, but they are laughable to me.  They don't show real consequences at all.  And the relays being damaged still should destroy the galaxy (based upon what Bioware put in the games-the codex).

Exactly, the reason the kid is so suspect is that he literally comes out of left field, and as it is right now, BW seems to want you to just take a stranger (the Reaper AI/Overmind at that) at his word and sacrifice yourself for a very morally ambiguous ending no matter which way you take it

[Wayning_Star]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

So I guess everytime someone tells me how great a game is and I decide to go out and buy it, I'm being mind controlled. Because according to you, influencing someone's actions is clearly mind control.

shhhh, don't give advertizers any more help...gak!!

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Well, Shep does things that are along the same line as the reapers, in the event of their arrival, to limit it, as many have stated the 'arrival' mission. Shep, apparently, has to become more machine minded, to accept those hard of choices to make.

But I fail to understand how this equates with being indoctrinated, especially during the final choices sequences. It would seem as if synthesis is equated with being indoctrinated, so as that is to equal being a villian by choosing synthesis because all villians are indoctrinated.

The leviathan couldn't have that same mindset before the reapers existed, they'd have no knowledge of the reapers, so no intuitive inititive in that regard. They were reflecting only on the catalyst progess to accomplish its programmed goal of ending chaos.

The Geth are the only other beings that were 'with' the reapers, and they're impervious to indoctrination.

The Geth were indoctrinated.

As for Arrival, what are you talking about? There are no Reaper methods at work there, Shepard's decision has nothing to do with being "machine minded", he did what was necessary, as any good hero/soldier would.

[3DandBeyond]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

@JBPBRC You're still wrong. A person can also willingly defy indoctrination. It's not controlling an individual in any way shape or form. I guess by your book we also live in a world full of mind controlling tyrants because people can influence others to make a choice. If I was planning on buying a game, but my friend bought a different game than I wanted, would making the decision to buy the same game he did so we could play it together mean he's controlling my mind? Just because you influence a choice does not make you a mind controller...

Indoctrination is pernicious and persistent.  It strengthens over time.  It starts with feelings of paranoia or being watched.


Influencing someone appeals to their rational mind, to them to change their opinions, but does not force them to do so.  If you can be easily influenced to do things you don't want to do, then that is a question of your character and not because people are exerting mind control all the time.  But there are people that are influenced by compelling individuals to do things-it's not mind control, but more behavior control.  It's using weaknesses within the person to make them do things they might not normally do or things they are too afraid to do alone.

Your comparison is flawed.  If you decide to buy the same game the key is you decided.  He's not controlling you.  If he could hypnotize you and force you to buy it, that's different.  Your example has nothing to do with controlling someone.

Influencing someone to do something they don't want to do or to believe something that is not true is true is mind control, but it isn't just telling someone to do it or asking them to.  In fact, peer pressure or mob mentality are forms of mind control-weak forms.  Coercion can be a form of it-another weak form.  It gets you to overcome or suspend your hesistance to do something against your will or better judgement.

[Wayning_Star]

StoneSwords wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

who cares what the reapers thinks? I'm concerned about what the catalyst does and where the Leviathan are headed. The interchange between Sovy and Harby with Shep is just their harvest mentality on the push. They're shackeled by the catalyst, but are nations independent of the catalyst, so their intentions are subject to that. Consider the source and forget about it... all those intellect locked into the hulls are going quite mad. We must free them, and by NOT killing them off the rest of the way either.

Well prior to the end of ME3, I really did care what they think-they were cool, interesting, arrogant monsters with their own motives for killing.  The kid arrived and they were lap dogs or mindless fires burning with a special scalpel-like precision, used to cull a certain stage of advanced organic while leaving the less advanced behind.  So, they are the most precise cleansing fires ever in existence and they use the most horrendous way to rend body and mind from each other.  I couldn't care less what their overseer wants or needs to do.  I only know what I must do and I know that the minds or the thoughts contained within each reaper exists in a limbo state-I can never imagine my wanting to exist in such a place myself, so I know that what is best is to put an end to this crap on my terms, and not through some gift from some unknown person whose motives are completely unknown.

Who created the crucible?  The kid won't say.  But no one knew about the kid before Shepard got to the citadel-no one but Leviathan and they did not create the crucible.  The crucible interacts specifically with the kid-it changes him so it is able to change his programming.  Therefore whoever created it must have known the kid existed (the AI) and must have known how to re-program him.  The list of who knows that is very short.  No one up until the Protheans (except the kid, the reapers, and Leviathan) knew about the kid.  That along with the fact that the kid could be lying because he has been deceptive, makes the choices suspect. 

The slideshow and cutscenes that come after were only meant to console people who thought the relays destroyed the galaxy, and to provide a certain epilog to make people "feel" better, but they are laughable to me.  They don't show real consequences at all.  And the relays being damaged still should destroy the galaxy (based upon what Bioware put in the games-the codex).

Exactly, the reason the kid is so suspect is that he literally comes out of left field, and as it is right now, BW seems to want you to just take a stranger (the Reaper AI/Overmind at that) at his word and sacrifice yourself for a very morally ambiguous ending no matter which way you take it

but regardless of fan bucking indoctrination, the facts being that the reapers ARE just a symptom of past Leviathan propaganda.

The "kid" is just representitive anyways, a graphic icon placed to associate with 'the intelligence'. Shep has to have some way of communication with the MEU's problem child. Leviathan technology that organics cannot really handle all that well. Too deep forum.

[skate4tacos96]

Wayning_Star wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

So I guess everytime someone tells me how great a game is and I decide to go out and buy it, I'm being mind controlled. Because according to you, influencing someone's actions is clearly mind control.

shhhh, don't give advertizers any more help...gak!!

That actually made me laugh^_^ But, indoctrination is still not mind control. The Reapers can only give an individual a 'push' towards the decision they want him to make. They do not outright control the decision making process.