Wayning_Star wrote...
The "kid" is just representitive anyways, a graphic icon placed to associate with 'the intelligence'. Shep has to have some way of communication with the MEU's problem child. Leviathan technology that organics cannot really handle all that well. Too deep forum.
skate4tacos96 wrote...
But, indoctrination is still not mind control. The Reapers can only give an individual a 'push' towards the decision they want him to make. They do not outright control the decision making process.
Shepard: What... is this?
Catalyst: This is the Citadel. Where I live.
Shepard: And who are you, exactly?
Catalyst: I am the Catalyst.
Shepard: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.
Catalyst: An honest mistake. The Citadel is an extension of me.
Catalyst: You must be quick. The war still rages out there.
Shepard: But, the Crucible... it didn't work?
Catalyst: The Crucible is a tool, much like the Reapers. And tools need a user.
Shepard: I don't …
Catalyst: You are the user of the Crucible, as I am the user of the Reapers.
Catalyst: I was created eons ago to solve a problem. The Reapers are my solution.
Shepard: What?
Catalyst: The Reapers main purpose is to prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy them.
Shepard: But that's exactly what you're doing.
Catalyst: Not exactly. The Reapers harvest fully developed civilizations, leaving the lesser ones intact.
Catalyst: And the essence of each harvested civilization is stored, forever, in Reaper form.
Shepard: What is it you want from me?
Catalyst: I can harness and direct the energy of the Crucible.
Catalyst: But you must choose how to release it.
Catalyst: And you must decide the form its energy will take.
Shepard: I don’t understand.
Catalyst: The energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will be destroyed.
Catalyst: As will much of the technology your kind rely on.
Catalyst: Including the relays you will use to dispense the energy.
Shepard: And the other choice?
Catalyst: You may harness the energy. Use it to circumvent my control of the Reapers.
Shepard: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.
Catalyst: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.
Shepard: And what happens to me?
Catalyst: You will subvert my existence. You will control the Reapers. You will continue to seek an answer to problem.
Shepard: But the Reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Correct.
Catalyst: There is another choice.
Catalyst: My ultimate goal, the exact solution to the singularity problem, is to combine the synthetic and the organic.
Shepard: Combine?
Catalyst: Much like yourself. You are already a melding of both.
Catalyst: If you choose so, your energy, combined with that of the Crucible, can be used to convert, and transform each of our kind.
Catalyst: We, will become like you, and organic life will become like us. And the problem of Technological Singularity will be solved.
Catalyst: But you must choose.
Catalyst: But you must act. It must be your volition that guides my actions.
Catalyst: Go. If you falter now, the cycle will continue. I will not act as Catalyst if you do not act first.
Shepard: So, I just...
BleedingUranium wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
The "kid" is just representitive anyways, a graphic icon placed to associate with 'the intelligence'. Shep has to have some way of communication with the MEU's problem child. Leviathan technology that organics cannot really handle all that well. Too deep forum.
So much headcanon.
JamieCOTC wrote...
The Catalyst isn't deceiving Shepard. The "lots of speculation from everyone" makes it appear that he is. I've said it before, if you think the Catalyst is deceiving Shepard, you are giving Mac and Casey waaaaaaay too much credit.
Modifié par BleedingUranium, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:57 .
Doesn't exactly present any new facts....JamieCOTC wrote...
The Catalyst isn't deceiving Shepard. The "lots of speculation from everyone" makes it appear that he is. I've said it before, if you think the Catalyst is deceiving Shepard, you are giving Mac and Casey waaaaaaay too much credit.
Here's an earlier draft of the conversation.
Shepard: What... is this?
Catalyst: This is the Citadel. Where I live.
Shepard: And who are you, exactly?
Catalyst: I am the Catalyst.
Shepard: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.
Catalyst: An honest mistake. The Citadel is an extension of me.
Catalyst: You must be quick. The war still rages out there.
Shepard: But, the Crucible... it didn't work?
Catalyst: The Crucible is a tool, much like the Reapers. And tools need a user.
Shepard: I don't …
Catalyst: You are the user of the Crucible, as I am the user of the Reapers.
Catalyst: I was created eons ago to solve a problem. The Reapers are my solution.
Shepard: What?
Catalyst: The Reapers main purpose is to prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy them.
Shepard: But that's exactly what you're doing.
Catalyst: Not exactly. The Reapers harvest fully developed civilizations, leaving the lesser ones intact.
Catalyst: And the essence of each harvested civilization is stored, forever, in Reaper form.
Shepard: What is it you want from me?
Catalyst: I can harness and direct the energy of the Crucible.
Catalyst: But you must choose how to release it.
Catalyst: And you must decide the form its energy will take.
Shepard: I don’t understand.
Catalyst: The energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will be destroyed.
Catalyst: As will much of the technology your kind rely on.
Catalyst: Including the relays you will use to dispense the energy.
Shepard: And the other choice?
Catalyst: You may harness the energy. Use it to circumvent my control of the Reapers.
Shepard: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.
Catalyst: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.
Shepard: And what happens to me?
Catalyst: You will subvert my existence. You will control the Reapers. You will continue to seek an answer to problem.
Shepard: But the Reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Correct.
Catalyst: There is another choice.
Catalyst: My ultimate goal, the exact solution to the singularity problem, is to combine the synthetic and the organic.
Shepard: Combine?
Catalyst: Much like yourself. You are already a melding of both.
Catalyst: If you choose so, your energy, combined with that of the Crucible, can be used to convert, and transform each of our kind.
Catalyst: We, will become like you, and organic life will become like us. And the problem of Technological Singularity will be solved.
Catalyst: But you must choose.
Catalyst: But you must act. It must be your volition that guides my actions.
Catalyst: Go. If you falter now, the cycle will continue. I will not act as Catalyst if you do not act first.
Shepard: So, I just...
Wayning_Star wrote...
BleedingUranium wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
The "kid" is just representitive anyways, a graphic icon placed to associate with 'the intelligence'. Shep has to have some way of communication with the MEU's problem child. Leviathan technology that organics cannot really handle all that well. Too deep forum.
So much headcanon.
how so? Leviathan created the catalyst via their tech and it spread that tech throughout the MEU, even stuck some on mars so's humans would follow their trend setting.
The catalsyt even harvested the Leviathan..talk about a hard case. Many think to scare the kid straight..lol
BleedingUranium wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
BleedingUranium wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
The "kid" is just representitive anyways, a graphic icon placed to associate with 'the intelligence'. Shep has to have some way of communication with the MEU's problem child. Leviathan technology that organics cannot really handle all that well. Too deep forum.
So much headcanon.
how so? Leviathan created the catalyst via their tech and it spread that tech throughout the MEU, even stuck some on mars so's humans would follow their trend setting.
The catalsyt even harvested the Leviathan..talk about a hard case. Many think to scare the kid straight..lol
That's the headcanon.
Wayning_Star wrote...
skate4tacos96 wrote...
So I guess everytime someone tells me how great a game is and I decide to go out and buy it, I'm being mind controlled. Because according to you, influencing someone's actions is clearly mind control.
shhhh, don't give advertizers any more help...gak!!
Steelcan wrote...
Keatstwo wrote...
If the Catalyst was lying why would he even offer you the choice of destroying the reapers? If he wanted to he could just say "hey, you see that beam straight ahead? Jump into that and all the reapers will explode and you'll magically appear back on Earth and live happily ever after!". Either he's incapable of lying or he doesn't see any reason to, it amounts to the same thing in the end.
Because you know the Crucible can destroy the reapers. And I don't think the Catalyst is lying, I think he's steering you towards synthesis because its what he wants
skate4tacos96 wrote...
@3DandBeyond Your reasoning behind my comparison being flawed is flawed. Reapers do not control the mind or the decisions you make, they only influence them, like I've said more times in an hour than I've ever thought possible...
3DandBeyond wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
skate4tacos96 wrote...
So I guess everytime someone tells me how great a game is and I decide to go out and buy it, I'm being mind controlled. Because according to you, influencing someone's actions is clearly mind control.
shhhh, don't give advertizers any more help...gak!!
Ever read the book (an old book), "the Hidden Persuaders"? Or heard of subliminal suggestion? Advertisers have already used such techniques to get people to buy products or feel things even when watching movies.
The movie "the Exorcist" is an example. The producers of it wanted people to feel the movie, so they inserted the sounds of pigs being slaughtered and scenes of bloody heads and such in the film. Films run at something like 30FPS, so they'd insert random horrid scenes of things that were not noticeable to the conscious mind. These things and more were done to make people feel very uncomfortable during the movie. In fact, when the movie first showed and some of these techniques were in use, viewers even ran from the theaters or passed out, or got sick.
Advertisers subliminally tell you that if you use the right aftershave, wear the right clothes, shop at the right stores, you will be popular. It's done all the time. There's a lot of fat people around today. But advertising even for fat people clothes does not show really fat people-to make everyone think they'll look good no matter what. But a lot of it is more secretive-just beyond what you can put your finger on.
One routine tactic that is used is to make tv commercials louder than the shows you watch. And to create obnoxious commercials with repetition. The key is to get you to remember the product name any way possible. These uses of subliminal messaging and imagery are all forms of mind control. They appeal to the subconscious.
skate4tacos96 wrote...
@3DandBeyond Your reasoning behind my comparison being flawed is flawed. Reapers do not control the mind or the decisions you make, they only influence them, like I've said more times in an hour than I've ever thought possible...
Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:06 .
Priss Blackburne wrote...
From the Wiki:
Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been Captain Kirrahe's men.
But as Saren Arterius discovered during his research into indoctrination at the facility, there is a balance between control and usefulness. The more control Sovereign has over a person, the less capable they become. Saren realized that to keep his mind free of Sovereign's control, he had to make himself an invaluable resource. He believed that Sovereign would allow him a reprieve from indoctrination, because the Reaper needed Saren's mind intact to find the Conduit.
The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting orders. Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time. Matriarch Benezia used her abilities to keep a 'haven' in her mind free of indoctrination, hoping for a chance to use it, but this meant she was effectively trapped in her own mind, watching in horror as she committed atrocities on Saren's orders. When mortally injured on Noveria, a despairing Benezia refused Shepard's offer of help and chose to die, saying "I am not myself, I never will be again."
3DandBeyond wrote...
skate4tacos96 wrote...
@3DandBeyond Your reasoning behind my comparison being flawed is flawed. Reapers do not control the mind or the decisions you make, they only influence them, like I've said more times in an hour than I've ever thought possible...
Indoctrination is brainwashing and that is mind control. You can keep saying it isn't, but it is. It isn't merely influencing someone to make a decision. It is used to force them to make a decision. It is specifically used to overcome any reservations a person has. An external form of it would be like me putting a gun to your head and telling you to buy a game, instead of just saying that you should buy one. Even if you think you might like to buy a certain game, if something forces you to do so, it is not just an influence any more.
The fact that indoctrination can use a person's own wishes against them is proof of what it is. If I believe that I can fly and a friend tells me I can, that's stupid but still allows me to decide. If someone can hypnotize me and makes me truly believe I can fly, then that is mind control. It's more than influence at that point. The one thing allows me to fully make my own decision-the other removes all rational doubt.
It interferes with decision making.
Wayning_Star wrote...
BleedingUranium wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
BleedingUranium wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
The "kid" is just representitive anyways, a graphic icon placed to associate with 'the intelligence'. Shep has to have some way of communication with the MEU's problem child. Leviathan technology that organics cannot really handle all that well. Too deep forum.
So much headcanon.
how so? Leviathan created the catalyst via their tech and it spread that tech throughout the MEU, even stuck some on mars so's humans would follow their trend setting.
The catalsyt even harvested the Leviathan..talk about a hard case. Many think to scare the kid straight..lol
That's the headcanon.
troll alert rising...
Wayning_Star wrote...
so, who actually controls the mind, the person or those acting on their mind?
Priss Blackburne wrote...
From the Wiki:
Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been Captain Kirrahe's men.
But as Saren Arterius discovered during his research into indoctrination at the facility, there is a balance between control and usefulness. The more control Sovereign has over a person, the less capable they become. Saren realized that to keep his mind free of Sovereign's control, he had to make himself an invaluable resource. He believed that Sovereign would allow him a reprieve from indoctrination, because the Reaper needed Saren's mind intact to find the Conduit.
The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting orders. Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time. Matriarch Benezia used her abilities to keep a 'haven' in her mind free of indoctrination, hoping for a chance to use it, but this meant she was effectively trapped in her own mind, watching in horror as she committed atrocities on Saren's orders. When mortally injured on Noveria, a despairing Benezia refused Shepard's offer of help and chose to die, saying "I am not myself, I never will be again."
skate4tacos96 wrote...
I actually have heard of subliminal messaging as am I aware of the obnoxious ways commercials get you to remember their product. Still, both brought up subjects do not show examples of mind control. They are only trying to influence you to buy their products. It's not control because you still have a choice.
BleedingUranium wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
BleedingUranium wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
BleedingUranium wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
The "kid" is just representitive anyways, a graphic icon placed to associate with 'the intelligence'. Shep has to have some way of communication with the MEU's problem child. Leviathan technology that organics cannot really handle all that well. Too deep forum.
So much headcanon.
how so? Leviathan created the catalyst via their tech and it spread that tech throughout the MEU, even stuck some on mars so's humans would follow their trend setting.
The catalsyt even harvested the Leviathan..talk about a hard case. Many think to scare the kid straight..lol
That's the headcanon.
troll alert rising...
Okay then what Leviathan tech are you talking about? The mass relays and Citadel are Reaper tech, the archives on Mars are Prothean.
3DandBeyond wrote...
Yep. It's very influential just like advising people on what to eat for dinner.
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