301 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

I actually have heard of subliminal messaging as am I aware of the obnoxious ways commercials get you to remember their product. Still, both brought up subjects do not show examples of mind control. They are only trying to influence you to buy their products. It's not control because you still have a choice.

Anything that causes you to do something that subverts your own free decision-making is a form of mind control.  Your problem here is that you think people must all be walking around as robots, awaiting the next word from the overseer.  True brainwashing and mind control can be extremely subtle.  It goes beyond merely influencing preferences and seeks to force a certain action.  Enthrallment by the Leviathans was far less pervasive and much weaker than indoctrination but people "lost" ten years of their lives with it.  And Leviathan was controlling people.  I really think you need to take another look at indoctrination.  No insult intended, I just don't think you quite get it.

That's probably why we all argue about this stuff.

edit: indoctrination is just another form of communication (unless abused).

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:15 .

[skate4tacos96]

And enough about indoctrination, already. It's starting to give me a headache "indoctrination" and "influence" don't even sound like words anymore. The point of this whole thread is if it's possible that the Catalyst was deceiving Shepard. You can still deceive someone without using indoctrination, and that's why I believe the catalyst wasn't being 100% truthful.

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

All technology in the MEU is Leviathan tech, and that makes it all Reaper tech.

No. By that logic all Geth tech is Quarian tech, which it's not.

[Wayning_Star]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

And enough about indoctrination, already. It's starting to give me a headache "indoctrination" and "influence" don't even sound like words anymore. The point of this whole thread is if it's possible that the Catalyst was deceiving Shepard. You can still deceive someone without using indoctrination, and that's why I believe the catalyst wasn't being 100% truthful.

What else could the catalyst tell Shep?

[adam32867]

dreamgazer wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Yep.  It's very influential just like advising people on what to eat for dinner.

That reminds me: I feel like chicken tonight. Like chicken tonight. 

mmmmm chicken

[Priss Blackburne]

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Mind_control

Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, menticide, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated".[1] The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.

I think your getting hung up on something like the collectors where Harby gains direct control over someone and indoctrination where they are controlled by commands. At the beginning the person being indoctrination is just being influenced and in an almost unnoticeable way but after a period they become a person who will do anything the reapers tell them to even betraying their friends. At this point do they have a choice, can they disregard the order, all evidence points to no.

edit: sorry posted before the stop request

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:18 .

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

All technology in the MEU is Leviathan tech, and that makes it all Reaper tech.

No. By that logic all Geth tech is Quarian tech, which it's not.

Yes, it is, as they derived them from tech left over by the catalyst for it's experiment in adaptation/evolution.

[skate4tacos96]

As much as I disagree with you, 3D, on topics other than indoctrination, I am just going to stop talking about it because its getting quite frustrating. There are so many things I can say to as a rebuttal to your last reply, but I'm not going to say anything because clearly it's just a huge waste of time.

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...

so, who actually controls the mind, the person or those acting on their mind?

Well there are ways others can use to control other people's minds.  It exists.  And it isn't always so obvious.  Some of it is behavior control, but there is a lot that is not known about the mind/body connection.  Sometimes things we do affect what we think.  For instance it's hard to say or do something that is anger based if you smile when doing it.  That's a Customer Service technique-smile on the phone and you are less likely to impart anger.  It's also a great business technique-get your employees involved with each other in face to face social situations with each other and they are less likely to dislike each other.

Then there's also the technique of trying to hold your arms up will someone is trying to force them down.  Try thinking of what a bad person you are and what a failure you are and have them push down.  Then try thinking of how smart and capable you are and have them push on your arms.  You tend to be stronger with positive self-talk.

But, we are consistently inundated with attempts to control our thinking-sometimes in good ways, sometimes in not so good ways.  Educators have learned that telling kids to not do bad things actually causes them to remember to do bad things.  If you want a kid to be quiet in class, you say, "please be quiet in class" and don't say, "don't be noisy in class"-the brain interprets the second and remembers subconsciously, "be noisy in class".

[Wayning_Star]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

As much as I disagree with you, 3D, on topics other than indoctrination, I am just going to stop talking about it because its getting quite frustrating. There are so many things I can say to as a rebuttal to your last reply, but I'm not going to say anything because clearly it's just a huge waste of time.

learning is never a waste of time. And thanks for the imput!!

[skate4tacos96]

Wayning_Star wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

And enough about indoctrination, already. It's starting to give me a headache "indoctrination" and "influence" don't even sound like words anymore. The point of this whole thread is if it's possible that the Catalyst was deceiving Shepard. You can still deceive someone without using indoctrination, and that's why I believe the catalyst wasn't being 100% truthful.

What else could the catalyst tell Shep?

The possible cons of synthesis?! Nothing is perfect. There are pros to everything, but there are also always cons. 

[3DandBeyond]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

As much as I disagree with you, 3D, on topics other than indoctrination, I am just going to stop talking about it because its getting quite frustrating. There are so many things I can say to as a rebuttal to your last reply, but I'm not going to say anything because clearly it's just a huge waste of time.

That's because you are taking this personally.  Did you read the post that describes indoctrination and what it is and does that was a few posts back?  And really stop and take another look at what mind control is and what it does and is meant to do.  It is meant to make a person overcome a rational hesitation (even if they want to do something) or overcome other things in freely making a decision.  It can be weak or can be totally overwhelming.  I mean no insult at all to you but I do think you need to look at it all again.  And do read the description that was posted.  Influencing a decision is basically allowing someone full autonomy over the decision-indoctrination does not. 

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

All technology in the MEU is Leviathan tech, and that makes it all Reaper tech.

No. By that logic all Geth tech is Quarian tech, which it's not.

Yes, it is, as they derived them from tech left over by the catalyst for it's experiment in adaptation/evolution.

You could look at it that was, but that doesn't make it relevant.

Using someone else's technology is bad, but understanding it and creating your own version of it is a good thing, like the Prothean mass relay on Ilos, the Turians' Thanix cannons, Legion's Geth code, or even Cerberus's Raptor sniper rifle.

[skate4tacos96]

Why do I get the feeling this thread is going to turn out to be a huge discussion on why life even exists in the first place?

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

so, who actually controls the mind, the person or those acting on their mind?

Well there are ways others can use to control other people's minds.  It exists.  And it isn't always so obvious.  Some of it is behavior control, but there is a lot that is not known about the mind/body connection.  Sometimes things we do affect what we think.  For instance it's hard to say or do something that is anger based if you smile when doing it.  That's a Customer Service technique-smile on the phone and you are less likely to impart anger.  It's also a great business technique-get your employees involved with each other in face to face social situations with each other and they are less likely to dislike each other.

Then there's also the technique of trying to hold your arms up will someone is trying to force them down.  Try thinking of what a bad person you are and what a failure you are and have them push down.  Then try thinking of how smart and capable you are and have them push on your arms.  You tend to be stronger with positive self-talk.

But, we are consistently inundated with attempts to control our thinking-sometimes in good ways, sometimes in not so good ways.  Educators have learned that telling kids to not do bad things actually causes them to remember to do bad things.  If you want a kid to be quiet in class, you say, "please be quiet in class" and don't say, "don't be noisy in class"-the brain interprets the second and remembers subconsciously, "be noisy in class".

Uh oh, I smile all the time I'm posting... will some one please force my arms down..


really tho, theres no limit to counter intuitive thinking when frustrated by kids, especially one with cosmic powers...

[Priss Blackburne]

Questions I want to ask the Catalyst.

Why did the Catalyst choose not to preserve the Protheans in reaper form when they appeared to be the most evolved species of that cycle?

Why are species deemed not worthy of this discarded if his goal is to preserve organic life?

How much control does he have over the reapers if they regard themselves as individuals and show signs of hatred towards organic species?

Why is Harbinger allowed to conduct experiments on Organics?

Why am I taking advice about preserving organics from synthetics from a synthetic being?

[BleedingUranium]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

Questions I want to ask the Catalyst.

Why did the Catalyst choose not to preserve the Protheans in reaper form when they appeared to be the most evolved species of that cycle?

Why are species deemed not worthy of this discarded if his goal is to preserve organic life?

How much control does he have over the reapers if they regard themselves as individuals and show signs of hatred towards organic species?

Why is Harbinger allowed to conduct experiments on Organics?

Why am I taking advice about preserving organics from synthetics from a synthetic being?

Exactly.

[3DandBeyond]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

And enough about indoctrination, already. It's starting to give me a headache "indoctrination" and "influence" don't even sound like words anymore. The point of this whole thread is if it's possible that the Catalyst was deceiving Shepard. You can still deceive someone without using indoctrination, and that's why I believe the catalyst wasn't being 100% truthful.

What else could the catalyst tell Shep?

The possible cons of synthesis?! Nothing is perfect. There are pros to everything, but there are also always cons. 

Yeah but in doing something you must fully believe in the existence of the pros and see that they outweigh the cons.  You have to be able to make an informed decision and believe in the person that offers you the explanation.  The kid isn't a reliable source-even if he doesn't own the choices, he offers their description, and there's a better than even chance that he is lying. 

Again, he's killing people and knows he has destroyed lives-so if he's capable of that, then why is it hard to believe he can lie, especially since indoctrination is deception.  That can't be ignored.  The kid also states that TIM was deceived, Protheans that believed they could control the reapers were also deceived.  So, now the kid tells Shepard that s/he can control them.  Why would Shepard believe this?  And if Shepard cannot believe that control is possible, why would Shepard believe the other choices?

[griot13]

Wayning_Star wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

I actually have heard of subliminal messaging as am I aware of the obnoxious ways commercials get you to remember their product. Still, both brought up subjects do not show examples of mind control. They are only trying to influence you to buy their products. It's not control because you still have a choice.

Anything that causes you to do something that subverts your own free decision-making is a form of mind control.  Your problem here is that you think people must all be walking around as robots, awaiting the next word from the overseer.  True brainwashing and mind control can be extremely subtle.  It goes beyond merely influencing preferences and seeks to force a certain action.  Enthrallment by the Leviathans was far less pervasive and much weaker than indoctrination but people "lost" ten years of their lives with it.  And Leviathan was controlling people.  I really think you need to take another look at indoctrination.  No insult intended, I just don't think you quite get it.

That's probably why we all argue about this stuff.

edit: indoctrination is just another form of communication (unless abused).

Hahha I wish I was as close to the Catalyst as you!!!
(Repost)
Indoctrination does not take direct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persuade you till believing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren).

Modifié par griot13, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:32 .

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

All technology in the MEU is Leviathan tech, and that makes it all Reaper tech.

No. By that logic all Geth tech is Quarian tech, which it's not.

Yes, it is, as they derived them from tech left over by the catalyst for it's experiment in adaptation/evolution.

You could look at it that was, but that doesn't make it relevant.

Using someone else's technology is bad, but understanding it and creating your own version of it is a good thing, like the Prothean mass relay on Ilos, the Turians' Thanix cannons, Legion's Geth code, or even Cerberus's Raptor sniper rifle.

but that's the snare in the catalyst's techno trap. Taking advantage of organic trait of opportunism and turning it against them later. The Leviathan unwittingly evoked this with creating the catalyst to serve the purpose of retaining thralls. All based on the notion derived from organic thralls createing synthetic life and that life taking theirs when strife/chaos insues. Another pesky trait of evolution and survival. Learning what not to do as opposed to what to do if it's just that easy.

[dreamgazer]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Why do I get the feeling this thread is going to turn out to be a huge discussion on why life even exists in the first place?

Modifié par dreamgazer, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:34 .

[3DandBeyond]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Why do I get the feeling this thread is going to turn out to be a huge discussion on why life even exists in the first place?

Well perhaps it's because some parts of the discussion suddenly become off limits when an explanation that is given is deemed unacceptable.  Or when one tries to control the independent thoughts of others.

[Wayning_Star]

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

I actually have heard of subliminal messaging as am I aware of the obnoxious ways commercials get you to remember their product. Still, both brought up subjects do not show examples of mind control. They are only trying to influence you to buy their products. It's not control because you still have a choice.

Anything that causes you to do something that subverts your own free decision-making is a form of mind control.  Your problem here is that you think people must all be walking around as robots, awaiting the next word from the overseer.  True brainwashing and mind control can be extremely subtle.  It goes beyond merely influencing preferences and seeks to force a certain action.  Enthrallment by the Leviathans was far less pervasive and much weaker than indoctrination but people "lost" ten years of their lives with it.  And Leviathan was controlling people.  I really think you need to take another look at indoctrination.  No insult intended, I just don't think you quite get it.

That's probably why we all argue about this stuff.

edit: indoctrination is just another form of communication (unless abused).

Hahha I wish I was as close to the Catalyst as you!!!
(Repost)
Indoctrination does not take direct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persuade you till believing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren).

Leviathan communicated with Shep, but didn't end up endoctrinating because of Sheps usefulness. They 'decided' not to abuse their form of communication.

[skate4tacos96]

No 3D. I'm not taking this personally at all! XD Honestly, the one and only thing I'm frustrated about is my inability to efficiently express what it is that I'm trying to say, to the point where I just give up. I did read that post about what indoctrination is, and it is making me second guess my understanding of the topic, but where did it come from? I don't remember reading that in the codex. I hope you didn't take any of my posts as an insult or anything, because I certainly didn't intend it that way.

[Priss Blackburne]

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

I actually have heard of subliminal messaging as am I aware of the obnoxious ways commercials get you to remember their product. Still, both brought up subjects do not show examples of mind control. They are only trying to influence you to buy their products. It's not control because you still have a choice.

Anything that causes you to do something that subverts your own free decision-making is a form of mind control.  Your problem here is that you think people must all be walking around as robots, awaiting the next word from the overseer.  True brainwashing and mind control can be extremely subtle.  It goes beyond merely influencing preferences and seeks to force a certain action.  Enthrallment by the Leviathans was far less pervasive and much weaker than indoctrination but people "lost" ten years of their lives with it.  And Leviathan was controlling people.  I really think you need to take another look at indoctrination.  No insult intended, I just don't think you quite get it.

That's probably why we all argue about this stuff.

edit: indoctrination is just another form of communication (unless abused).

Hahha I wish I was as close to the Catalyst!!!
(Repost)Indoctrination does not take direct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persuade you till believing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren)

your talking about high function indoctrinated people who are only useful to the reapers if they are able retain some autonomy, the end result of indoctrination is a someone like a husk. That is what happened to Kirrahe's men on Virmire.

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:36 .