301 réponses à ce sujet

[nevar00]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Im not indoctrinated. Harbinger does not tell me what to do. I pick control or Synthesis because I believe its the right choice.

In all seriousness. The extended endings shows that the Reaper AI did not lie. How do explain that?

I believe the point is that, at the time, you (Shepard) have absolutely no reason to listen to anything this little AI has told you or to believe anything it says.  Regardless of if it's telling the truth or not (and it would seem to after the fact) there's absolutely no reason to believe that the thing that just confessed to being the biggest mass murderer in history is giving you the instructions for the off buttons.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Why do I get the feeling this thread is going to turn out to be a huge discussion on why life even exists in the first place?

Well perhaps it's because some parts of the discussion suddenly become off limits when an explanation that is given is deemed unacceptable.  Or when one tries to control the independent thoughts of others.

some are even implying that to try and understand the catalyst is to BE the catalyst. Worries me..

[Wayning_Star]

nevar00 wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Im not indoctrinated. Harbinger does not tell me what to do. I pick control or Synthesis because I believe its the right choice.

In all seriousness. The extended endings shows that the Reaper AI did not lie. How do explain that?

I believe the point is that, at the time, you (Shepard) have absolutely no reason to listen to anything this little AI has told you or to believe anything it says.  Regardless of if it's telling the truth or not (and it would seem to after the fact) there's absolutely no reason to believe that the thing that just confessed to being the biggest mass murderer in history is giving you the instructions for the off buttons.

from it's perspective, none of what you accuse it of is contemporary. Shep has every reason to listen to it, as it's holding most if not all the cards... besides, the entire MEU spent to have Shep there at that moment to take care of business, what ever that may be at the time.

[Enhanced]

Are there really still some people that just can't accept that fact that he isn't lying, even though Bioware released 2 DLCs that supports his words?

Modifié par Enhanced, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:45 .

[3DandBeyond]

griot13 wrote...


Hahha I wish I was as close to the Catalyst as you!!!
(Repost)
Indoctrination does not take direct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persuade you till believing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren).

Read the description of it on the wiki (from the codex) or the earlier post that had the description.  If something overcomes your hesitation (your regard for safety or for the law or for your ethics or just plain logic) and causes you to do something that removes your free and unfettered will from the choice, your mind is under control of some sort.  It is more than persuasion that still allows you to make a real and rational decision.  Drugs do the same thing, but with drugs alone, no one is telling you what to do.  If however you are drugged and made to believe something is possible then that is brainwashing/indoctrination.  The word did exist before ME.

Indoctrination takes an individual and may use something that they think is possible, but it makes them know it is possible.  That is mind control.  TIM is an example.  His belief was turned into certainty.  The thought does not natively grow within TIM alone and is forced to become true in his mind, and yet he cannot take control of the reapers.  It isn't like indoctrination just happens without there being any intent behind it.  The kid and the reapers use it to get people to do things they would not otherwise do, even if it's something they might want to do.

[skate4tacos96]

Oh and I also agree with you on the whole Catalyst being deceptive subject, 3D. But in order to fully understand which choice is the best, you need to know ALL of the factors of every choice. Synthesis is made out to be a joyride full of sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows. Is it also possible that the Catalyst steers Shepard in the direction of Control or Synthesis because he knows that once the Reapers are destroyed, he as an intellectual being would have no reason to exist any further. The destruction of the Reapers could also, most likely, result in his death since he is essentially the database of Reaper intelligence.

[3DandBeyond]

Enhanced wrote...

Are there really still some people that just can't accept that fact that he isn't lying, even though Bioware released 2 DLCs that support the Catalyst's words?

What 2 DLCs do that?  Leviathan doesn't.  If Leviathan had created the crucible it might be believable, but Leviathan didn't.  Who created the plans for the crucible?  And why do the 3 choices exist in a place that is part of the catalyst-who put them there?   Answer those questions with proof that someone other than the kid created all of this, and he isn't lying.  If you can't answer all that, then there's a good chance that he is.  Again, indoctrination is used to deceive people.  TIM, Saren, Benezia, indoctrinated Protheans, and many more were all deceived using indoctrination.  So why is it so hard to believe that the kid is not lying?  Or that Shepard would not logically think that's possible.  I don't care what the slides show-they were meant to make people "feel" better, but are laughable and do not show true consequences to anything.

Leviathan makes the whole situation even more ridiculous.  Leviathan enthralls organics and then does a poor job at it, so these enthralled races create synthetics that kill people.  In order to stop synthetics from killing people, Leviathan (that controlled organics that it wants to keep from being killed) creates a synthetic that has no controls to keep it from killing organics and it kills Leviathan.  It then begins killing organics.  Yeah, Leviathan really helped make the kid more believable.  It actually made the reapers even less believable.

[griot13]

Wayning_Star wrote...

griot13 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

skate4tacos96 wrote...

I actually have heard of subliminal messaging as am I aware of the obnoxious ways commercials get you to remember their product. Still, both brought up subjects do not show examples of mind control. They are only trying to influence you to buy their products. It's not control because you still have a choice.

Anything that causes you to do something that subverts your own free decision-making is a form of mind control.  Your problem here is that you think people must all be walking around as robots, awaiting the next word from the overseer.  True brainwashing and mind control can be extremely subtle.  It goes beyond merely influencing preferences and seeks to force a certain action.  Enthrallment by the Leviathans was far less pervasive and much weaker than indoctrination but people "lost" ten years of their lives with it.  And Leviathan was controlling people.  I really think you need to take another look at indoctrination.  No insult intended, I just don't think you quite get it.

That's probably why we all argue about this stuff.

edit: indoctrination is just another form of communication (unless abused).

Hahha I wish I was as close to the Catalyst as you!!!
(Repost)
Indoctrination does not take direct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persuade you till believing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren).

Leviathan communicated with Shep, but didn't end up endoctrinating because of Sheps usefulness. They 'decided' not to abuse their form of communication.

(Quote from Saren)
Because the more control the Reapers exerts the less capable the subject becomes.. This doesn't mean that your still not Indoctinated, once Indoctrinated always Indoctrinated!

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

griot13 wrote...


Hahha I wish I was as close to the Catalyst as you!!!
(Repost)
Indoctrination does not take direct control over you(or you would be a husk) it slowly changes you morals to persuade you till believing what the reapers want is the right thing(like TIM & Saren).

Read the description of it on the wiki (from the codex) or the earlier post that had the description.  If something overcomes your hesitation (your regard for safety or for the law or for your ethics or just plain logic) and causes you to do something that removes your free and unfettered will from the choice, your mind is under control of some sort.  It is more than persuasion that still allows you to make a real and rational decision.  Drugs do the same thing, but with drugs alone, no one is telling you what to do.  If however you are drugged and made to believe something is possible then that is brainwashing/indoctrination.  The word did exist before ME.

Indoctrination takes an individual and may use something that they think is possible, but it makes them know it is possible.  That is mind control.  TIM is an example.  His belief was turned into certainty.  The thought does not natively grow within TIM alone and is forced to become true in his mind, and yet he cannot take control of the reapers.  It isn't like indoctrination just happens without there being any intent behind it.  The kid and the reapers use it to get people to do things they would not otherwise do, even if it's something they might want to do.

that's why the catalyst doesn't 'lie', so much as permits the organic to believe, even promote that. But, I'm of the impression that the indoctrination is for lower functions, like harvest. The catalyst,not unlike Leviathan think in absolutes, that meaning that lies are not true and are not absolute. They would not disturb their train of thinking with lies. They leave that stuff up to semi organic reaperships to lower themeselves to self delusion.

So the catalyst doesn't lie, as it's counter productive. The mysterious crucible and choices are just what they are, no indoctrination is effective, as the priorities are altered via the crucible and its choices menu. The catalyst is shackeld by it for some reason by some one other than those we know of... yet.

[Priss Blackburne]

More questions for the Catalyst:

If you control the reapers why do you keep saying We?

Why is one of the Crucible's function( Something you tried to get rid of mind you ) synthesis? Something that you have tried before and that you believe to be the best solution?

If no one got this far before how would they know to create the Crucible in a way that would allow me to control the Reapers? And how would they know the Citadel is the key of this control?

Why is it the Crucible is a device made to unlock more functions for you, someone no one has gotten far enough to meet?


edit: Dang running late again gotta jet.

[WhiteKnyght]

griot13 wrote...

(Quote from Saren)
Because the more control the Reapers exerts the less capable the subject becomes.. This doesn't mean that your still not Indoctinated, once Indoctrinated always Indoctrinated!

So you wont believe a Reaper, but you'll believe a Reaper puppet? Saren was implanted by Sovereign after he told you that, which made his indoctrination much stronger than it was before. His capability was unphazed

Also technically incorrect, the Reapers abandoned Amanda Kenson when she was no longer useful. As she put it, "I cant hear the voices anymore." Meaning she was no longer under their control. The "voices" are the Reaper command signal, which relays their orders.

The Leviathan's control isn't quite the same as the Reapers. Both use Quantum Entanglement to relay orders, but the difference is that Leviathan uses the artifacts as a relay for the signal, go out of range and you're free. The Reapers' version, as stated in Mass Effect: Retribution, goes for lightyears.

What Shepard went through with Leviathan couldn't be done again unless he got close to an artifact. And what the Illusive Man used was more like the Dominate biotic power. As evidenced by the dark energy aura in his hand when he forced Shepard to shoot Anderson. the same aura from Dominate and pretty much all other biotics.

Before anybody chimes in with "The Illusive Man isn't a biotic," let me remind you all that Reaper tech implants can give humans rudimentary biotic abilities. Case in point, Paul Grayson, who became a powerful biotic when he was implanted. The same implants, mind you, that evolved into the upgrades for Cerberus Troops, and the Illusive Man himself.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:03 .

[3DandBeyond]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

Oh and I also agree with you on the whole Catalyst being deceptive subject, 3D. But in order to fully understand which choice is the best, you need to know ALL of the factors of every choice. Synthesis is made out to be a joyride full of sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows. Is it also possible that the Catalyst steers Shepard in the direction of Control or Synthesis because he knows that once the Reapers are destroyed, he as an intellectual being would have no reason to exist any further. The destruction of the Reapers could also, most likely, result in his death since he is essentially the database of Reaper intelligence.

I think to believe that the kid would have to be seen as only existing because the reapers do and yet that's not true.  The kid existed before the reapers.  It is just as likely that he wants to be rid of them, because he's seeking to at last get rid of his creators fully.  They exist within him even if he controls the reapers.  This is head canon though.

If you look at it strictly basing it on what the kid says, the only thing he knows he must do is create some balance where synthetics are not killing organics (but he's a synthetic killing organics).  He may have a skewed vision as to what killing means, but whatever.  He has tried many things and they always fail-but then in order for his programming to be correct, they must fail.  It's a requirement that no solution ever work permanently, because of the inevitability.  The created will (and must) always rebel against (and destroy) the creator.  If he solves this problem permanently, it cannot be inevitable so that makes his programming false.  And every solution he has ever come up with is temporary.  Even control and synthesis are not permanent.  In control, it seems clear to me that conflict is inevitable-the Many will not enjoy being forced to live with huge goo sucking serial killers.  In synthesis, only the optics have changed-organics temporarily no longer exist.  But, someone could create organic life at some point. 

So then there's destroy.  He sees it as the most temporary of all-the chaos will return.  Okey dokey, but when hasn't it?  And the reapers will be destroyed, all synthetics (synthetic what) will be targeted-even you are part synthetic.  Ok, what the hell does that mean-what will happen to synthetics and does that mean synthetic life or just parts?  All tech (what tech) will be damaged.  Ok, all tech is synthetic and not all synthetics are tech.  There will be losses but no more than have already occurred.  What the hell does that mean?  Later on we see that EDI diied-is that not another loss?  The description is a joke and pretty much meaningless.  It's like saying all blondes will be targeted, but no blondes will be harmed.  Yeah, he's completely trustworthy.

[Auld Wulf]

@OP

People like predictable, expected plots in vidyagames. We're not exactly a higher form of literature, are we? So we can't pull literary evolution out of the bag. Thus, if the reapers have used indoctrination to their end, then everything they do much be deception. It's the reason television writers are afraid to make one-dimensional villains in shows anything more than that, Gul Dukat from Deep Space 9 being a prime example.

People like one dimensional, they like boring, they like everything to make sense in the simplest ways. It's binary thinking. So the reapers are BAD, they are ZERO, they use X to achieve Y. The alliance is GOOD, they are ONE, they don't use X to achieve Y. Therefore, the reapers are always, invariably BAD, and the reapers always use X to achieve Y. It's the kind of thinking that results in all manner of bad mindsets; in this case, xenophobia.

Honestly? I'm of a mindset that the reapers aren't at all evil, just misguided. I've used this argument before and I'll use it again - If you had been in a war and suffered an injury that left you in a coma, and a race of godlike beings came along and offered you the chance to live out a llife that was as long as you wanted, in a utopia of fun and adventure, with many other species, in an environment where empathy was standard; after what you'd seen, would you turn them down?

The only fault the reapers made was that they made it non-negotiable, harvesting wasn't optional. That was a logical error made by the catalyst at the time, but once things had been set in motion, the catalyst might have come up with other possible solutions, but it might not have been able to act upon them. Synthesis could be a solution by design of the catalyst, not the crucible. Simply that the crucible gave the catalyst the ability to 'change a decision that was once set in stone.'

It just needed to understand what it needed to offer to organics and synthetics in order for them to be able to co-exist, so for that Shepard made the ultimate sacrifice, so that the caatalyst could take him apart and see how he ticked. From that, they offered the ability to upgrade and to opt into a networked overmind (likely with feelings shared by default, and thoughts shared optionally), and they added empathy to the hardware and code of synthetics, to allow them to comprehend these feelings.

So I don't think there was any deception involved at all. It was just a bad situation created by the leviathans and their arrogance. I actually figured that a race like the leviathans were responsible even before the so-named DLC, to me, that was rather obvious. You had a race that was doing a bad job at managing the galaxy, so they created curators to do it for them.

Anyway, those are my feelings on the matter. I don't get any deception from the reapers at all, except for that which they use to get people into their virtual, safe environments. The conclusion of the reapers is that every moment more they spend in reality, is a moment longer they're in danger. So the quicker their minds are harvested (via spikes, the tiny bugs, or whatever other means), the quicker the reapers can protect them.

I really don't think that Mass Effect is a tale of evil. It's a tale of arrogance and stupidity; and quite a good cautionary tale to boot.

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...


that's why the catalyst doesn't 'lie', so much as permits the organic to believe, even promote that. But, I'm of the impression that the indoctrination is for lower functions, like harvest. The catalyst,not unlike Leviathan think in absolutes, that meaning that lies are not true and are not absolute. They would not disturb their train of thinking with lies. They leave that stuff up to semi organic reaperships to lower themeselves to self delusion.

So the catalyst doesn't lie, as it's counter productive. The mysterious crucible and choices are just what they are, no indoctrination is effective, as the priorities are altered via the crucible and its choices menu. The catalyst is shackeld by it for some reason by some one other than those we know of... yet.

If you "promote" the belief in an untrue thing, you are being deceptive, a form of lying.  It's not an active but a passive lie, but a lie nonetheless.  If you say that you are going to drive my car to work and I don't tell you the tires are not bolted on and the tires fall off, I didn't actively lie to you, but I did passively lie to you.

The catalyst does not think in absolutes because he was created to adapt.  If he was made to think only in absolutes he could not have destroyed his creators and he could never come up with new solutions, but he has had different solutions to the problem he was created to solve.  That adaptability means he does not merely see things linearly or in abolutes.  That's why I say his thinking is off-or he would never be able to change the inevitable.  If he could not adapt then he'd never see the problem as solvable and would never try a new solution.  Nor would he ever see it that a solution does not work.  He would have the certainty that it would eventually work or would not apply it.

What you end up with is a totally flawed AI, created by idiiots.  The kid is either free-willed because he destroyed his creator or is shackled to one purpose, which would never allow for adaptation and either of these is idiotic because they don't fit with what he says and what he's done.  He cannot be both, but seems to be both if what he says is true.  He would not be shackled in regard to finding solutions, but he would be shackled to protect his creators.  But he seems to be controlled in regard to finding solutions, and was able to destroy his creators.  He's a mess so even if he isn't lying, it doesn't matter.  The whole situation is idiotic.

[ElSuperGecko]

Whether the Catalyst is lying to you, decieving you, attempting to manipulate you (he is) or being perfectly open and honest (he's not) is completely irrelevant anyway. We still can't accept it's logic or it's suggestion of a "perfect solution".

The Catalyst is a completely different order of being than ourselves. It has existed for billions of years, and has no concept of life as we know it. There is no place for emotion in it's logic. There is no love, no sympathy, no compassion in it's mandate and, no hope in it's programming. It sees nothing wrong with summarily executiong billions and billions of living, breathingbeings, exterminating entire civilisations, wiping out entire cultures. It has no guilt or remorse for the actions it has taken - it's only regret is that it's initial solution - the Reaper harvest, and the cycle of extinction - has failed.

The Catalyst, through it's flawed programming and aloof, unfeeling, uncaring nature, has caused pain, anguish and suffering on a galactic scale for billions of years. It has no understanding of the horror it has created. It's unanimous that by our own understanding that the Reaper's harvest is nothing more than an abomination, We have no evidence to suggest that the Catalyst's new solution - Synthesis - would end up being anything but the exact same thing.

Do not forget who and what we are fighting for. The Catalyst's goals are not our goal. It's mandate is not our mandate. It's logic is not our logic and it's methods are certainly not our methods. With this being the case, regardless of it's sincerity or lack thereof and based on a conversation that barely lasts five minutes, why would we ever accept it's word, let alone embrace it's "perfect solution"?

[Auld Wulf]

@ElSuperGecko

I completely disagree with that based upon my above post. It just sounds like binary thinking, and wanting to think of the force we're fighting as being some faceless evil. It's easy, and simple, but it's not exactly fun, or interesting. It's boring to reign every story into the 'we must destroy the evil zeroes, we must destroy them because we're the righteous ones, and righteous ones can destroy.'

[griot13]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

griot13 wrote...

(Quote from Saren)
Because the more control the Reapers exerts the less capable the subject becomes.. This doesn't mean that your still not Indoctinated, once Indoctrinated always Indoctrinated!

So you wont believe a Reaper, but you'll believe a Reaper puppet? Saren was implanted by Sovereign after he told you that, which made his indoctrination much stronger than it was before. His capability was unphazed

Also technically incorrect, the Reapers abandoned Amanda Kenson when she was no longer useful. As she put it, "I cant hear the voices anymore." Meaning she was no longer under their control. The "voices" are the Reaper command signal, which relays their orders.

The Leviathan's control isn't quite the same as the Reapers. Both use Quantum Entanglement to relay orders, but the difference is that Leviathan uses the artifacts as a relay for the signal, go out of range and you're free. The Reapers' version, as stated in Mass Effect: Retribution, goes for lightyears.

What Shepard went through with Leviathan couldn't be done again unless he got close to an artifact. And what the Illusive Man used was more like the Dominate biotic power. As evidenced by the dark energy aura in his hand when he forced Shepard to shoot Anderson. the same aura from Dominate and pretty much all other biotics.

Before anybody chimes in with "The Illusive Man isn't a biotic," let me remind you all that Reaper tech implants can give humans rudimentary biotic abilities. Case in point, Paul Grayson, who became a powerful biotic when he was implanted. The same implants, mind you, that evolved into the upgrades for Cerberus Troops, and the Illusive Man himself.

Wrong his Implants made him not capable of listening to Shepard, so he had to kill his self because of the Implants... In the Leviathan DLC the doctor confirmed that you have to be around the artifacts a certain amount of time to be affected by the artifacts.. The artifacts are only for long range control and I didn't see any artifacts under warter..

[ElSuperGecko]

Auld Wulf wrote...
@ElSuperGecko

I completely disagree with that based upon my above post. It just sounds like binary thinking, and wanting to think of the force we're fighting as being some faceless evil. It's easy, and simple, but it's not exactly fun, or interesting. It's boring to reign every story into the 'we must destroy the evil zeroes, we must destroy them because we're the righteous ones, and righteous ones can destroy.'

You can disagree all you want, that's entirely your perogative, but unless you provide some kind of in-game evidence that shows the Catalyst is anything but what I described above, i'm not going to be changing my mind. 

[skate4tacos96]

My point exactly, 3D. The Catalyst is clearly not a trustworthy source of information. However you also kinda said that the Catalyst is stuck with the Reapers. However that is not true since he created them in the first place. He willingly brought them into the universe as his solution. The Leviathans did not create the Reapers, they created the Catalyst to find a solution to the Organi-Synthetic conflict. The Catalyst thought the Reapers were the best choice, so he built Harbinger and his army. This is clearly a flawed solution as when stated in basic form; the Catalyst created synthetics to kill organics so they wouldn't create synthetics that would kill organics. The Catalyst suddenly doesn't seem to bright...

[Auld Wulf]

Here's a fun, random idea to toss out there. The catalyst says we because its control over the reapers, whilst absolute, is limited to the original choice. At the time, that choice was deemed the only choice possible; but over time, others were conceived. The catalyst used its limited control to actually distract the reapers from the success of the Crucible and key figures like Shepard; tied in with the natural arrogance and over-confidence of the reapers (something we've already seen harbinger display), this was possible.

The 'child' was simply an after-effect of the catalyst trying to reach out to Shepard, to urge him on to victory, and to try and tell Shepard of the struggle of the catalyst who felt helpless, as if no one could help him. Didn't the catalyst pretty much say that as the hallucination of the boy? 'No one can help me.' But he wanted help, he wanted to change the decision, and he knew that the crucible would allow for it.

And like the leviathans, for the first time, he actually calculated a probable success for this cycle, as their chances to construct and bring the crucible into place were better than those of any cycle prior. Since the prior cycles had already done most of their work for them. The catalyst now had other options available to it; it could destroy the reapers and put the decisions back in the hands of the organics, it could allow the organics to control the reapers and thus enforce peace that way; or it could alter the nature of organics and synthetics so that they could co-exist. (As has been mentioned above.)

So the catalyst isn't deceptive at all. It just a.) takes responsibility for setting everything into motion, b.) believes that harvesting was the only choice that could have been made back then (given the state of the galaxy), but c.) believes that due to changed variables, better options should have been acted upon cycles ago. But the catalyst was unable to act upon those better choices for whatever reason. Perhaps because of questionable security systems set in place by the leviathans.

The crucible could simply be a giant security override. Changing the catalyst and allowing him to act upon possibilities it had calculated since the very first decision. Perhaps the override was designed to allow the leviathans to choose based upon the options presented, too. What was changed about the crucible was that it allowed anyone to make that decision. Shepard was just the one that happened to be there, perhaps because s/he was the one the catalyst wanted (as spoken of above).

So I don't see the catalyst as being deceptive. Just in a bad situation thanks to the leviathans. I actually see the catalyst as reaching out and trying to communicate with and possibly even help Shepard. There has to be a reason why Shepard was never indoctrinated, right? Well, there you go.

---Edit---

This also explains why the catalyst is really annoyed if you happen to pick the new option where Shepard does nothing, since the catalyst had basically done all he was able to with his limited power to basically protect Shepard and distract the reapers from the construction of the crucible. The catalyst had gone to all of this effort to change the decision from harvesting, to something else... and then? Shepard goes 'hey, noap, not willing to choose!' I could definitely see how that would be exasperating to the catalyst, since I don't think the catalyst wants to harvest any more, it's just that he has no choice. (For reasons explained above.)

I don't expect these theories to be well liked, because they don't depict a predictable story in which a Mary Sue destroys all of them bad guys. But hey, it explains pretty much everything I could think of. And if I think of any further problems, I'll have fun trying to be creative and imaginative with those, too.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:41 .

[3DandBeyond]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@OP

People like predictable, expected plots in vidyagames. We're not exactly a higher form of literature, are we? So we can't pull literary evolution out of the bag. Thus, if the reapers have used indoctrination to their end, then everything they do much be deception. It's the reason television writers are afraid to make one-dimensional villains in shows anything more than that, Gul Dukat from Deep Space 9 being a prime example.

People like one dimensional, they like boring, they like everything to make sense in the simplest ways. It's binary thinking. So the reapers are BAD, they are ZERO, they use X to achieve Y. The alliance is GOOD, they are ONE, they don't use X to achieve Y. Therefore, the reapers are always, invariably BAD, and the reapers always use X to achieve Y. It's the kind of thinking that results in all manner of bad mindsets; in this case, xenophobia.

Honestly? I'm of a mindset that the reapers aren't at all evil, just misguided. I've used this argument before and I'll use it again - If you had been in a war and suffered an injury that left you in a coma, and a race of godlike beings came along and offered you the chance to live out a llife that was as long as you wanted, in a utopia of fun and adventure, with many other species, in an environment where empathy was standard; after what you'd seen, would you turn them down?

The only fault the reapers made was that they made it non-negotiable, harvesting wasn't optional. That was a logical error made by the catalyst at the time, but once things had been set in motion, the catalyst might have come up with other possible solutions, but it might not have been able to act upon them. Synthesis could be a solution by design of the catalyst, not the crucible. Simply that the crucible gave the catalyst the ability to 'change a decision that was once set in stone.'

It just needed to understand what it needed to offer to organics and synthetics in order for them to be able to co-exist, so for that Shepard made the ultimate sacrifice, so that the caatalyst could take him apart and see how he ticked. From that, they offered the ability to upgrade and to opt into a networked overmind (likely with feelings shared by default, and thoughts shared optionally), and they added empathy to the hardware and code of synthetics, to allow them to comprehend these feelings.

So I don't think there was any deception involved at all. It was just a bad situation created by the leviathans and their arrogance. I actually figured that a race like the leviathans were responsible even before the so-named DLC, to me, that was rather obvious. You had a race that was doing a bad job at managing the galaxy, so they created curators to do it for them.

Anyway, those are my feelings on the matter. I don't get any deception from the reapers at all, except for that which they use to get people into their virtual, safe environments. The conclusion of the reapers is that every moment more they spend in reality, is a moment longer they're in danger. So the quicker their minds are harvested (via spikes, the tiny bugs, or whatever other means), the quicker the reapers can protect them.

I really don't think that Mass Effect is a tale of evil. It's a tale of arrogance and stupidity; and quite a good cautionary tale to boot.

Your whole premise is wrong and thanks for implying that we are all bland idiots that like simplistic stories.  No we don't.  The reapers were far more nuanced and even amazing as mysterious, unknowable, autonomous beings.  They became moronic with the existence of the kid.  They were dumbed down.  That didn't make them multi-dimensional, it turned them into mindless objects or pawns.  And sorry if I have no desire to become friends with abominations that have been created using people goo.

The reapers didn't make things non-negotiable, they didn't do anything.  They were forced to do all that they did.  The kid says it, they are now at the end of ME3, like a mindless cleansing fire.  The fire doesn't feel anything, doesn't think anything, and destroys all in its path, so it can't be reasoned with or talked to.  And the kid is the arsonist holding the blowtorch.

And you don't see indoctrination as any kind of deception.  You make it all sound so wonderful-really the reapers only mean to do good.  Sorry if that includes squeezing the goo out of your kids, but they meant well.  Really?  So, if some mentally ill person walks into your house with a machete it's ok for him to slice through everyone, as long as he has no evil intent?  Maybe he thinks he's sending everyone to God, to save them-is that ok, then? 

I have really no idea what that all was about being in a coma and being rescued-how does that at all apply?  The people that are put into the reapers are not suffering until the reapers come along and cause the suffering.


And no, people are not thinking the Alliance is good and all, in fact the BSN is full of people that take exception to ME3's sudden shift to being human-centric and Earth-centric, and plenty of criticism for Hackett and how BW shows him.

Also, evil is often an issue of perspective and behavior.  The kid and the reapers do what any rational person or any person that existed with them would see as evil.  The act is evil, even if the intent is not.  From my perspective, if you want to kill my family and gooify them, you are evil, even if you think you are helping.  I don't care what your motives are, I want you gone.  Especially if you persist in attempting to kill my family.  And I don't care if you carry around jam jars and a hard-drive and tell people you aren't killing anyone, but are preserving them by putting their memories on the hard-drive and their goo in the jam jars.  It's killing from my perspective and for people the only perspective that counts is their own in this regard. 

The reapers are basically eating people and making new reapers in the process-so that means they must keep doing this to make more reapers, to ensure their existence.  So, sorry if I don't want skyscraper sized dumbed down doofuses controlled by a truly flawed AI, flying around and friending me on Facebook.  Never mind about the fate of the reaper variants.  Just imagine if that was someone you knew-"hey Bob you need to put on a little weight, you're just skin and bones-no actually you're just synthetic parts and stuff with goo hanging off of you."

Actually we wanted something that was rational and that fit the story, keeping the reapers as real even if arrogant foes.  They were far more interesting.  And the idea that some of the greatness in the other stories in the game are just forgotten at the end and not even relevant, is horrid.  The geth story was multi-dimensional and at the heart of what the kid says is the problem.  The idea is that synthetics will always kill, but the geth showed that that need not happen-they stopped and had remorse.  This was a great story.  And along with that that all people could perhaps find a way to work together to forge their own future.  All of that is squashed with two idiotic words, "wake up".  No please, I'd like to go back to sleep.

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The catalyst does not think in absolutes because he was created to adapt.  If he was made to think only in absolutes he could not have destroyed his creators and he could never come up with new solutions, but he has had different solutions to the problem he was created to solve.  That adaptability means he does not merely see things linearly or in abolutes.  That's why I say his thinking is off-or he would never be able to change the inevitable.  If he could not adapt then he'd never see the problem as solvable and would never try a new solution.  Nor would he ever see it that a solution does not work.  He would have the certainty that it would eventually work or would not apply it.

What you end up with is a totally flawed AI, created by idiiots.  The kid is either free-willed because he destroyed his creator or is shackled to one purpose, which would never allow for adaptation and either of these is idiotic because they don't fit with what he says and what he's done.  

I don't see how the italed bit follows from the paragraph above. There seems to be an implicit assumption that the ability to be flexible about means implies the ability to be flexible about goals and premises. Could you unpack that?

[Funkdrspot]

People think the AI is deceiving Shep b/c that is the reapers main strength. Not the tech or the giant ships but indoctrination. They are the masters of deception and we have spent 99.9999% of the trilogy understanding that they subvert people to their will through trickery. Its like god telling you all your life that the devil is not to be trusted and you see real life movie horror stories of those who did, but when the devil pops out, you believe him.

To say the ending turned out alright is metagaming. You're using info from after the decison. If you were in the moment with a trillion lives at stake, would YOU believe your arch enemy who functions through deception? I know I wouldn't. Destroy it is.

[3DandBeyond]

skate4tacos96 wrote...

My point exactly, 3D. The Catalyst is clearly not a trustworthy source of information. However you also kinda said that the Catalyst is stuck with the Reapers. However that is not true since he created them in the first place. He willingly brought them into the universe as his solution. The Leviathans did not create the Reapers, they created the Catalyst to find a solution to the Organi-Synthetic conflict. The Catalyst thought the Reapers were the best choice, so he built Harbinger and his army. This is clearly a flawed solution as when stated in basic form; the Catalyst created synthetics to kill organics so they wouldn't create synthetics that would kill organics. The Catalyst suddenly doesn't seem to bright...

Nope I never said nor do I believe the kid is stuck with them-in fact, I see him as separate from them.  He existed before they did.  I don't know why you'd think I ever meant that at all.  He controls them.  They are a solution he is using.  He says they no longer work and he needs a new one.  I'm saying that he cannot be both a merely linear or binary thing and an adaptable program capable of new solutions.  As a strictly binary (yes/no, on/off) thing once he realizes the reapers no longer work, he would stop using them, but he doesn't.  As an adaptable thing that can change, he would not only pull the image of the kid from Shepard's brain, but would also consider the ability and adaptability of people to solve problems.  His perception of the problem would adapt along with his solutions.  However, the writers decided that he stopped adapting once he came upon the reaper solution and even when that solution no longer works, he keeps using it.

There is so much here that makes no sense that it's just very hard to point to one thing as being problematic.  The whole thing is a mess.  The kid is a mess and does exactly what he was programmed (supposedly) not to do.  So is he forced to merely follow one directive or not?  Was he shackled or not?  And if so, why was he not kept from doing the one thing that shackling is primarily meant to keep synthetics from doing-destroying their creators?

The issue becomes one of seeing the catalyst as one or more truly "bad" things.  He's flawed, he's stupid, he's "evil" (acts so, not an evil machine), deceptive (TIM was deceived), and much much more.  I don't tend to go along with people in my life that are any one of the above-would never commit suicide if they were also "murderers" in order to help them.  So, it's just not logical to me that any choice is one Shepard could make.

You have the controlling force behind huge dumb people eating monsters telling Shepard that s/he can make a choice mostly by suicide that will help that reaper controller solve his problem-Shepard is to use a new solution and mostly die doing so.  If that makes sense then yellow is really gray.

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The catalyst does not think in absolutes because he was created to adapt.  If he was made to think only in absolutes he could not have destroyed his creators and he could never come up with new solutions, but he has had different solutions to the problem he was created to solve.  That adaptability means he does not merely see things linearly or in abolutes.  That's why I say his thinking is off-or he would never be able to change the inevitable.  If he could not adapt then he'd never see the problem as solvable and would never try a new solution.  Nor would he ever see it that a solution does not work.  He would have the certainty that it would eventually work or would not apply it.

What you end up with is a totally flawed AI, created by idiiots.  The kid is either free-willed because he destroyed his creator or is shackled to one purpose, which would never allow for adaptation and either of these is idiotic because they don't fit with what he says and what he's done.  

I don't see how the italed bit follows from the paragraph above. There seems to be an implicit assumption that the ability to be flexible about means implies the ability to be flexible about goals and premises. Could you unpack that?

The kid was created by Leviathan.  Leviathan enthralled races (organic people that they controllled).  The races created killer synthetics.  So Leviathan that used control on organics and that was afraid of synthetics, created a synthetic that was not controlled and that tried to destroy all of them.  However, we are supposed to believe that the kid is shackled to his purpose and cannot adapt his understanding of it-he is not flexible at all in his solutions or his understanding of the situation.  Over countless cycles he has never learned anything and yet in the very first one, he learned how to destroy his creators.  Only idiots would create shackles that did not allow such an AI to adapt and learn new ways to see and understand the problem or how it's changed, but would not create shackles to keep it from harming themselves.

The kid can use some things that exist in Shepard's mind (the image of the kid), but has no concerns as to what synthetics are like in Shepard's cycle, nor how people may have learned to solve the "problem" at all.  This makes no sense to me-if the AI is to find a solution it must be able to adapt to changing situations.  If not it's shackled and first rule of fig---, I mean shackling, protect yourself.  Especially given Leviathan's control mentality and the danger of synthetics.