186 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerdage]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, given that Tranquility is nearly always inherently evil, I can see problems arising from this. Also, they simply don't operate at full mental capacity; the loss of emotion would bring with it a loss of empathy and probably understanding of how human emotions work. Ultimately, it would likely be a very bad idea.

If you want to actually talk about cognitive processing and emotion, you'd lose a lot more than just that. Emotions are very important for things like insight and intuition, so tranquil should actually be very bad at solving insight-related problems (basically, anything we might call "thinking outside the box"). 

That's essentially the paragraph after the one the OP quoted from the wiki:

Tranquil can be creative—insofar as a very logical scientist might be. They pursue a means to an end, and are capable of coming up with alternate solutions to problems. They are, however, methodical to a fault. They are not taken by inspiration, and some might say what they lack is intuition. The fact that they do not get bored and take no pleasure out of creating takes much of the impetus away for them to change their methods or seek to create something different unless there is a clear reason to.

Modifié par nerdage, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:26 .

[Jonata]

They could surely elaborate a solution that will be practical. I wonder if morality take place in this, though.

[NoForgiveness]

Tranquil are soulless husks, there not people anymore. Plus the templars pretty much control them they wouldn't make good arbitors

[Althix]

Tranquils are not servitors, they still have a brain you know. Lack of emotions doesn't not makes them "husks".

[LobselVith8]

secretsandlies wrote...

Tranquils are not servitors, they still have a brain you know. Lack of emotions doesn't not makes them "husks".

Except that's precisely what Ser Alrik does to the female mages he turns tranquil, given their dialogue (and what he threatens Ella with). Karl seems to have no free will as a tranquil, as he begs for death over reverting back to a 'templar puppet'. And we have Owain thinking that an outbreak of abominations is the perfect time to clean the storeroom, since he didn't want to bother anyone by letting them know that he was on the other side of the barrier.

[dunstan1993]

This seems rather appropriate. 

[Althix]

Hanz54321 wrote...
 I don't agree with the practice of tranquiling mages in the first place. 

what do you suggest then?

I stand for decapitation, it seems like more merciful solution.

[cowoline]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The Tranquil.

Now, let's think about this:

They have no emotion.

Tell me, what caused Meredith to perform the Rite of Annulment? It was the idol, yes, but more basely, it was her emotions. It was her paranoia (not without cause, of course, but it was that all the same).

Tell me, what caused Cullen to say, "Mages aren't people like us and shouldn't be treated like people?" It was the event back in Ferelden, that he still has nightmares about. A profoundly emotional event that is seared in his memory.

Tell me, what caused Orsino to go crazy and turn into the Harvester? He felt trapped. He felt like there was no way out of his situation. His emotions drove him to blood magic.

Now, the Hero of Ferelden encounters that guy in the picture up there, in the Circle Tower. And he's smack dab in the middle of a warground and he's...cleaning his stockroom. He isn't affected by his emotions like the Templars are, or the mages are (Orsino, anyone?). Thus, I believe the Tranquil can be truly objective about the Mage/Templar conflict.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

I get where you are going with this, but as far as I can see there is one problem. If The tranquil vote in favour of the mages, the templars can claim they were once mages and can't be considered bias. If the favour the templars the mages can claim that they are nothing more than templar puppets.

The tranquil might no longer be in contact with their emotions, but the people that you are proposing that they work with are, so therefor emotions would still be an issue.

[Noviere]

As far as I know, Pharamond and Karl are the only two Tranquil we've seen in DA lore that have been "un-Tranquiled" in some way. Both of them expressed that they would rather be dead than Tranquil again.

An interesting scene in Asunder features a Tranquil stumbling upon the now-fugitive protagonists. She decides not to alert the templars after being assured that the heroes won't hurt anyone. When asked why, she says "Obedience is prudent. To interpret it as a lack of free will would be an error."

Modifié par Noviere, 07 janvier 2013 - 10:37 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, given that Tranquility is nearly always inherently evil, I can see problems arising from this. Also, they simply don't operate at full mental capacity; the loss of emotion would bring with it a loss of empathy and probably understanding of how human emotions work. Ultimately, it would likely be a very bad idea.

If you want to actually talk about cognitive processing and emotion, you'd lose a lot more than just that. Emotions are very important for things like insight and intuition, so tranquil should actually be very bad at solving insight-related problems (basically, anything we might call "thinking outside the box"). 

Alteratively known as guessing.

As arbiters and adjudicators, that seems like a strength, not a weakness.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So you want the conflict to be decided by people who were either too incompetent or too cowardly to keep their power?

From Wynne's dialogue, magic seems to require the ability to stay focused, and some serious hand-eye coordination. You can be pretty smart without having either of these things.

As for cowardly? They might have been. Now they aren't.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, given that Tranquility is nearly always inherently evil, I can see problems arising from this. Also, they simply don't operate at full mental capacity; the loss of emotion would bring with it a loss of empathy and probably understanding of how human emotions work. Ultimately, it would likely be a very bad idea.

If you want to actually talk about cognitive processing and emotion, you'd lose a lot more than just that. Emotions are very important for things like insight and intuition, so tranquil should actually be very bad at solving insight-related problems (basically, anything we might call "thinking outside the box"). 

Alteratively known as guessing.

As arbiters and adjudicators, that seems like a strength, not a weakness.

There might well be a situation where it's needed. But rarely enough, I suppose, that they could delegate that job to someone else.

[Knight of Dane]

LobselVith8 wrote...

secretsandlies wrote...

Tranquils are not servitors, they still have a brain you know. Lack of emotions doesn't not makes them "husks".

Except that's precisely what Ser Alrik does to the female mages he turns tranquil, given their dialogue (and what he threatens Ella with). Karl seems to have no free will as a tranquil, as he begs for death over reverting back to a 'templar puppet'. And we have Owain thinking that an outbreak of abominations is the perfect time to clean the storeroom, since he didn't want to bother anyone by letting them know that he was on the other side of the barrier.

But as Owain says: "The stockroom is my responsibility," which implies a purpose.
Now, I don't know if it actually says so, but I would assume that if the Nevarran Accord mentions tranquil that their purpose would be to serve authority aka: the Chantry; the templars.

If a new contract was signed saying that the Tranquil should serve as overseers of the mages and the templars should counter forces in their command to make reasonable strikes against evil magic would that solve the problem?

The Tranquil should serve their new purpose like they do their old, no?

[cowoline]

Knight of Dane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

secretsandlies wrote...

Tranquils are not servitors, they still have a brain you know. Lack of emotions doesn't not makes them "husks".

Except that's precisely what Ser Alrik does to the female mages he turns tranquil, given their dialogue (and what he threatens Ella with). Karl seems to have no free will as a tranquil, as he begs for death over reverting back to a 'templar puppet'. And we have Owain thinking that an outbreak of abominations is the perfect time to clean the storeroom, since he didn't want to bother anyone by letting them know that he was on the other side of the barrier.

But as Owain says: "The stockroom is my responsibility," which implies a purpose.
Now, I don't know if it actually says so, but I would assume that if the Nevarran Accord mentions tranquil that their purpose would be to serve authority aka: the Chantry; the templars.

If a new contract was signed saying that the Tranquil should serve as overseers of the mages and the templars should counter forces in their command to make reasonable strikes against evil magic would that solve the problem?

The Tranquil should serve their new purpose like they do their old, no?

Another thing is that tere is a huge difference between the tranquil, like Owain and Karl. Owain asked to made tranquil, Karl was forced to, even after he had been a harrowed mage for years.

Tranquil are not mindless, but what makes them unique is lost. Also from how I have seen it described being made tranquil is like being imprisoned. You can still sense you emotions to a degree, but have no ability to express them whatsoever. So everything gets bottled up, like they dfid with Paramound (grumbles, cruel Divine agreeing to make him tranquil again. And i usually like her).

[Knight of Dane]

I would very much like for tranquility to be completely optional too, but I can't see the harm in willing tranquils receiving combat training and given positions to offer non-biased opinions on sensible matters instead of crazy people waging war all the time.

[Althix]

Willing tranquilis is an option i guess for many mages who don't want struggle against demons. As for rest of them. Well they should be free, if they completed their education and harrowing. I think those mages are strong enough not to do stupid things like blowing a chantry. They can also serve in military or in places like hospitals or schools. Harrowing should be a mark of trust. Neither Enchanter and Knight-Commander should deny that.

I just can't see a reason why mages are kept in the Circle their entire life, why they can't have children. There are still mages that will born. Mage is a next step in evolution for humans and elfs.

Problem is the Tevinter ain't helping in a matter of trusting mages, also people can't see mages on daily basis so old fear for them is always in peoples minds. Also mages are sitting tight on their asses with out even trying to solve the issue in peaceful way. I guess Grand Enchanter could negotiate a hundred of years as tryout for educated mages in free enviroment. Templars always can bring mages down hard if need be.

But as it now. Uneducated mage will be possessed - as example Connor. So what other options to tranqility? Only death, not even a quarantine or containment.

You know i was thinking about how Anders is stupid. Why blow grand cleric up? Women were useless anyway. Why not to target Meredith? In fear of killing fellow mages? Well he would kill them anyway, they will be killed by Templars. Not all of them but still. So he killed a Cleric, Chanrty servants and civilians, he also killed mages by Templars. Even Isabela looks like a saint compared to Anders.

Thing is, that for mages there is no goal to strife for. And now this rebellion. Oh i sense mages blood in the air. Delicious.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 08 janvier 2013 - 12:20 .

[Plaintiff]

The Tranquil aren't logical, no matter what the wiki says.

[elfdwarf]

going back to architect 1st solution
turn everone into tranquil is truely evil

[Renmiri1]

** Spoilers **

On Asunder one Tranquil finds a cure for tranquility and restores his emotions. He is then condemned to be made tranquil again and prefers death.

I don't think people maimed and lobotomized can be objective. They just aren't "all there".

[Wulfram]

No emotions. Like Jedi. Jedi never screw anything up, do they?

Semi-seriously, I think the best solution would be to train the Mages into Jedi. Learning to control their emotion to avoid the temptations of the dark side/demons, being given freedom and respect in return for an ethic of service and self denial.

[XX-Pyro]

And let's let the people with lobotomy's decide the conflicts in our society, since they can be, you know, unbiased and objective.

[Noviere]

Wulfram wrote...

No emotions. Like Jedi. Jedi never screw anything up, do they?

Well, Jedi actually have emotions... They just try to fight their nature by not letting them guide their actions. Tranquil on the other hand simply do not have emotions. There is no inner conflict.

Modifié par Noviere, 08 janvier 2013 - 12:49 .

[InfinitePaths]

Without emotions you can't think 'big',you can only have instincts of an animal to survive,in order to solve a problem you need to think with dream and hope and find the thing,the emotion that pushes you to solve the problem.Having no emotions doesn't make you think 100% logical and smart.