186 réponses à ce sujet

[Celene II]

I wouldnt even trust them to clean a stock room. They are basically mindless drones.

The person who should decide the Holocaust should be who can win. Who can beat the other side. Let us have open war and choose a side. Not lets find out what started this and go back to an unworkable solution again

[Althix]

in open war mages will be slaughtered. open war won't do any good for mages, for templars and for the divine. open war is a bad choice.

[LobselVith8]

Knight of Dane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except that's precisely what Ser Alrik does to the female mages he turns tranquil, given their dialogue (and what he threatens Ella with). Karl seems to have no free will as a tranquil, as he begs for death over reverting back to a 'templar puppet'. And we have Owain thinking that an outbreak of abominations is the perfect time to clean the storeroom, since he didn't want to bother anyone by letting them know that he was on the other side of the barrier.

But as Owain says: "The stockroom is my responsibility," which implies a purpose.

Cleaning the stockroom instead of finding shelter when abominations are murdering people is simply insane.

Knight of Dane wrote...

Now, I don't know if it actually says so, but I would assume that if the Nevarran Accord mentions tranquil that their purpose would be to serve authority aka: the Chantry; the templars.

If a new contract was signed saying that the Tranquil should serve as overseers of the mages and the templars should counter forces in their command to make reasonable strikes against evil magic would that solve the problem?

The Tranquil should serve their new purpose like they do their old, no? 

Like how Alrik used tranquility to rape tranquil mages? Yeah, I imagine there would be some serious problems with having tranquil mages handling any level of responsibility.

[Potato Cat]

Surely if every mage was made tranquil, then the demons would just begin targetting regular people, right? Just a thought.

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except that's precisely what Ser Alrik does to the female mages he turns tranquil, given their dialogue (and what he threatens Ella with). Karl seems to have no free will as a tranquil, as he begs for death over reverting back to a 'templar puppet'. And we have Owain thinking that an outbreak of abominations is the perfect time to clean the storeroom, since he didn't want to bother anyone by letting them know that he was on the other side of the barrier.

I see the whole "templar puppet" thing as a place where the games are incorrectly defining the Tranquil. After all, the wiki says that if an action is not logical, they WILL go against it. Hence, there's no reason they would be templar puppets--but it adds a sensationalist effect to the game, so they put it in. 

Yeah, but we have Alrik using the Rite of Tranquility against female mages for a very specific reason, which seems to a case of Gaider's comments about tranquility going against the actual game in different areas - from Karl's terminology of his own tranquility to Alrik raping women by making them tranquil, as he implies he'll rape Ella (although Hawke is more specific that Alrik was threatening her sexually) while a female tranquil mage says that Alrik commands her now.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

The Chantry would be like "all mages must die or be tranquilized!"
And the Tranquil would be like "ok, mages, let the Chantry tranquilize all of you."

Great idea. Marvelous.

The Chantry's not that stupid. They know that the mages are necessary. Even the interfering priest at Ostagar didn't say "No magic." She said "Stick to blowing up darkspawn."

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except that's precisely what Ser Alrik does to the female mages he turns tranquil, given their dialogue (and what he threatens Ella with). Karl seems to have no free will as a tranquil, as he begs for death over reverting back to a 'templar puppet'. And we have Owain thinking that an outbreak of abominations is the perfect time to clean the storeroom, since he didn't want to bother anyone by letting them know that he was on the other side of the barrier.

I see the whole "templar puppet" thing as a place where the games are incorrectly defining the Tranquil. After all, the wiki says that if an action is not logical, they WILL go against it. Hence, there's no reason they would be templar puppets--but it adds a sensationalist effect to the game, so they put it in.

I believe DA2 tweaked the definition of the Tranquil somewhat. Either that, or they don't see any logic in refusing sex.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except that's precisely what Ser Alrik does to the female mages he turns tranquil, given their dialogue (and what he threatens Ella with). Karl seems to have no free will as a tranquil, as he begs for death over reverting back to a 'templar puppet'. And we have Owain thinking that an outbreak of abominations is the perfect time to clean the storeroom, since he didn't want to bother anyone by letting them know that he was on the other side of the barrier.

I see the whole "templar puppet" thing as a place where the games are incorrectly defining the Tranquil. After all, the wiki says that if an action is not logical, they WILL go against it. Hence, there's no reason they would be templar puppets--but it adds a sensationalist effect to the game, so they put it in. 

Yeah, but we have Alrik using the Rite of Tranquility against female mages for a very specific reason, which seems to a case of Gaider's comments about tranquility going against the actual game in different areas - from Karl's terminology of his own tranquility to Alrik raping women by making them tranquil, as he implies he'll rape Ella (although Hawke is more specific that Alrik was threatening her sexually) while a female tranquil mage says that Alrik commands her now.

Gaider's response to that, iirc, was that it's logical to obey commands from somebody with the legal right to beat the crap out of you. Which makes sense to me.

[Zeta42]

Mages of Thedas should build their own Hogwarts with blackjack and hookers. That removed most of the problems for a millenia in the Harry Potter universe.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zeta42 wrote...

Mages of Thedas should build their own Hogwarts with blackjack and hookers. That removed most of the problems for a millenia in the Harry Potter universe.

Because after enough Muggles burned, people with actual brains realized that the people burning were Muggles, and decided that magic did not exist. That wouldn't work in a world with a magical empire and a communist society with mages. Not to mention that hiding a young mage's accidental magic is harder to do when teleportation and Laser-Guided Amnesia are so difficult to produce.

[Knight of Dane]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except that's precisely what Ser Alrik does to the female mages he turns tranquil, given their dialogue (and what he threatens Ella with). Karl seems to have no free will as a tranquil, as he begs for death over reverting back to a 'templar puppet'. And we have Owain thinking that an outbreak of abominations is the perfect time to clean the storeroom, since he didn't want to bother anyone by letting them know that he was on the other side of the barrier.

But as Owain says: "The stockroom is my responsibility," which implies a purpose.

Cleaning the stockroom instead of finding shelter when abominations are murdering people is simply insane.

As I said, they serve according to their role, kind of like the qun I guess. He doesn't feel fear nor bravery, fleeing would be a response of the first and fighting the abominations that of the latter, he simply doesn't feel, so he returns to what he knows he can do.

Knight of Dane wrote...

Now, I don't know if it actually says so, but I would assume that if the Nevarran Accord mentions tranquil that their purpose would be to serve authority aka: the Chantry; the templars.

If a new contract was signed saying that the Tranquil should serve as overseers of the mages and the templars should counter forces in their command to make reasonable strikes against evil magic would that solve the problem?

The Tranquil should serve their new purpose like they do their old, no? 

LobselVith8 wrote...
Like how Alrik used tranquility to rape tranquil mages? Yeah, I imagine there would be some serious problems with having tranquil mages handling any level of responsibility.

The tranquil serve him because it's their purpose, which is why I guessed there must have been an agreement at some point that the tranquil is a role of servitude, if their role was changed to that of authority why should they serve? They simply do what they're supposed to.

[HK-90210]

Right, because having a problem solved through pure logic NEVER goes wrong.

[Knight of Dane]

The catalyst is illogical and a source of crappy writing, what's your point?

[HK-90210]

Knight of Dane wrote...

The catalyst is illogical and a source of crappy writing, what's your point?

Not going to get into a Catalyst is logical/illogical on the DA forum. But the reason I used it is that I figured more people would know about the Catalyst than VIKI from I, Robot(the movie). I thought she'd be a better example, but I couldn't find a good clip of her.

My point, however, was that solving a problem through logic and logic alone is a really, really, bad idea. If you take feelings out of decision making, the solution can become even worse than the original problem. You can disregard the lives and free will of others, all in the name of a logical solution. Not good, IMO.

[katamuro]

While it is a valid point. And I would say quite a good one to boot I just dont see if tranquil could actually decide. They dont care about anything. At all. For them it does not matter if templars slaughter the mages or mages slaughter the templars.

[Russalka]

Karl seemed rather certain he deserved his fate, even though the Templars were clearly overstepping their bounds at that point making anyone who even looked weird a Tranquil. That does not make them seem very reliable to me.

[Celene II]

secretsandlies wrote...

in open war mages will be slaughtered. open war won't do any good for mages, for templars and for the divine. open war is a bad choice.

Open war would lead to some deaths but in a situation like this you have no real choice.


When one side wants to wipe out another you might as well try. The chantry/templar enslavement of the mages is just as bad as being wiped out. At least fighting gives them a chance to win.


Its not like your going to convince anyone that mages can rule themselves, you are not going to convince the templars or the chantry that they can give up all that power over mages.

[Althix]

Victory of Templars over Mages is certain.

As result we will have Ser Alrik's solution for everyone. This is not a good solution.

Judging by experience of Tevinter, setting mages free or allow them to police them selfs is a bad thing. I am sure some girl from a village will be happy to return home and live her life as normal human. But there is also mages who are children of nobles, which means power, power means competition, need for power. Again even that village girl can do stupid things because of fear, jealousy, anger, hunger - you name it.

So i hope there will be a solution that will benefit both sides, but if my pc is about to choose templars or mages he will choose templars.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 09 janvier 2013 - 12:33 .

[Knight of Dane]

CastonFolarus wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

The catalyst is illogical and a source of crappy writing, what's your point?

Not going to get into a Catalyst is logical/illogical on the DA forum. But the reason I used it is that I figured more people would know about the Catalyst than VIKI from I, Robot(the movie). I thought she'd be a better example, but I couldn't find a good clip of her.

My point, however, was that solving a problem through logic and logic alone is a really, really, bad idea. If you take feelings out of decision making, the solution can become even worse than the original problem. You can disregard the lives and free will of others, all in the name of a logical solution. Not good, IMO.

Use another soucre then 

The Catalyst solution that "To stop synthetic/organic war we must make synthetic devour organic" logic is kinda... Illogical...

Besides, I always thought it should be a mix. The Tranquil should provide the logical suggestions so Templar and Mage doesn't just figth all the time, which they can only really do with authority.

[Xilizhra]

Victory of Templars over Mages is certain.

Hardly. In fact, it seems outright impossible to me, because I seriously doubt things would just go back to the status quo after DAI. And since the non-status-quo victory would involve killing every mage in Thedas... I don't believe any templar victory will happen.