186 réponses à ce sujet

[Althix]

for example you must have sex with your wife only. when nature dictates otherwise.

[LobselVith8]

Aeowyn wrote...

Well, this is an interesting quote regarding the Tranquil from Dragon Age: Asunder (spoilers obviously)

"Do you know who I am?" Evangeline asked.
"I do, Knight-Captain," the Tranquil answered. "You have been declared an enemy of the Circle by Lord Seeker Lambert."
"Are you going to warnt the tower we're here?"
She hesitated. "Do you intend to harm anyone?"
"Only if they harm us first."
The elf nodded slowly, as if this answer was acceptable. "The Lord Seeker was delivered an urgent summons to the Grand Cathedral, and left with many templars. He declared he would not be gone long. Whatever it is you plan, I suggest you be quick."
/.../
"Why are you telling us this?" she asked. "I've never known the Tranquil to do anything but what they're told."
The woman tilted her head curiously, as if the answer should be obvious.
"Obedience is prudent. To interpret it as lack of free will would be an error."

There seems to be a distinct difference between how tranquility is depicted in the games, and how Gaider has explained it.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There seems to be a distinct difference between how tranquility is depicted in the games, and how Gaider has explained it.

What do you mean?

[Althix]

EntropicAngel wrote...
 I blame DA ][.

hmm...  you know it's like hammer the last nail in the coffin of DA2. But again you find another nail and another nail and another nail.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

secretsandlies wrote...

for example you must have sex with your wife only. when nature dictates otherwise.

Naturalists sicken me ... skipping thousands of years of Human history, organizations and culture, and focusing on dumb animals.

[Althix]

Sociological naturalism?

[Herr Uhl]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

secretsandlies wrote...

for example you must have sex with your wife only. when nature dictates otherwise.

Naturalists sicken me ... skipping thousands of years of Human history, organizations and culture, and focusing on dumb animals.

Are monogamous animals less stupid?

[legion999]

What's to be decided though?

[DarthLaxian]

secretsandlies wrote...

hmmm... you do know that some mages want to become tranquil right?

yes out of fear that was indoctrinated into them by the chantry after they were - often forcefully - taken from their families as children and locked up!

sorry, but there is no way a sane person wants to get rid of his/her humanity to become this dead but still walking living corpse!

as for letting the tranquil decide:

no way, that's not gonna fly (the mages would not accept it, neither would the templars!)

greetings LAX
ps: i would rather ask a tranquil about what he thinks of the chantry and believe in the maker

[In Exile]

DarthLaxian wrote...
yes out of fear that was indoctrinated into them by the chantry after they were - often forcefully - taken from their families as children and locked up!

That's not what Owain says at all. He says that he could hear the demons, and that psychological terror is what he couldn't take.

[WhiteKnyght]

Navasha wrote...

Um... no. The tranquil aren't really even people anymore IMO. They are little more than living robots. Being able to move and carry out instructions given to them doesn't make them good decision makers.

Have you read Dragon Age: Asunder?

A tranquil willingly helped Wynne, Shale, and Evangeline get into the phylactery chamber. 

Tranquil: The Lord-Seeker was delivered an urgent summons to the Grand Cathedral and left with many templars. He declared he would not be gone long. Whatever it is you plan, I suggest you be quick.

Evangeline: Why are you telling us this? I've never known the Tranquil to do anything but what they're told.

Tranquil: Obedience is prudent. To interpret it as a lack of free will would be an error. Good luck, Knight-Captain.

The Tranquil aren't mindless drones, they choose to do as they're told. Partly because there is nothing better for them to do with their time.

They also aren't entirely free of emotions either. Owain felt fear towards the demons and abominations in the Circle Tower, and took offense when the Warden said he was not a person simply because he couldn't feel.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 11 janvier 2013 - 09:18 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Truly...i think the writer themselves don't know how it feel being emotionless...

Just think...your brain function mathematically always...nothing else

10010100101010010101000101010101......

Like a computer

I see many argue my points, it's okay...

If human have no emotion, human become worse than animal

Even animal have emotions

I've never seen a Tranquil commit a murder, rape someone, or steal.

Animals don't kill out of hate, but survival. Animals don't rape. And they don't commit theft.

Humans do kill. Humans do rape. And human do steal.

Humans are already beneath animals.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 11 janvier 2013 - 09:31 .

[Althix]

but humans are animals

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Animals don't kill out of hate, but survival. Animals don't rape. And they don't commit theft.

Actually, there are animals who rape and steal. But I think Nizaris might be addressing the inconsistency in the presentation of tranquil mages.

[Commander Kurt]

secretsandlies wrote...

for example you must have sex with your wife only. when nature dictates otherwise.

But monogamy makes perfect sense for humans who have slow-growing and weak babies. Family units seem to work better for us than larger packs, and for males to only have one unit to protect (and later provide for) would certainly make that job easier. 

A society will promote a system with a higher success rate, which in most cases for us means monogamy. There are of course cultures where a man may have as many wife's as he can provide for, which is just another method with the same results.

[Knight of Dane]

No it's instinct. A mother chicken, cougar or bear knows that their cubs are what they live for, to keep the breed living, survival.

Papa lion has no problem killing small cuddly cubs when he thinks they take momma's screwing time away from him.

He doesn't hate them like humans can feel resentment, but he removes the obstacles towards what he want because his instincts has evolved into saying so.
Animals feel fear, but not because something looks scary like people think, they react to the unknown like any creature with a decent mind and they react to threats.

My dog was afraid of big men with black hats because such a one hit him when he was a puppy, so in his mind such a creature was a danger, but he didn't hate him the same way we do.

Animals feel longing, the same feeling we have of home, when they have a place where food and shelter are provided. Do you think your animals would love you if you hadn't fed them as a baby?

It's instinct, only humans experience feelings like love out of comparison to another individuals traits or looks, and then we have the same sexual urge that compells us to plant our seed and make our line continue.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 11 janvier 2013 - 10:02 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You know, I was just thinking of this French guy who said that part of the reason the USA's so cool is because we take a logical view of the world, but are smart enough to realize that the community as a whole benefits from us acting altruistically; that is to say that we don't help each other for moral or emotional reasons, we just help each other because we'd rather live in a country where everyone helps each other.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 janvier 2013 - 10:20 .

[Jon The Wizard]

Y'know, original poster, I can actually see the logic in this. Kudos!

[Drakar123]

An ideal scenario would be for the magisters in tevinter to stop fighting each other and just conquer the rest of thedas already.If they just tried...Just tried they could have beaten everyone casually.

They are the only country in Thedas that has Somniari in it.All they would have to do is tell those somniari to kill every enemy leader during their sleep and problem solved.They would never even have to deploy their army.All it would take for them to rule thedas again is for them to use their dreamers to kill everyone who has any form of political power in other countries and keep killing their replacements.This would make it impossible for anyone to mount any form of organized ressistance aganst tevinter and every other country would eventually fall into anarchy without leaders so they could just swoop in and take over those countries once the people have killed each other enough for them to be powerless.

They could have mind cntrolled nobles in other countries with blood magic and caused civil wars to weaken those countries or even just used a powerful magic ritual to destroy their capital cities.Templars waste most of the lyrium in other countries and assuming tevinter doesn't use it for any such large scale operations they should have stockpilled quite a bit of it by now.

Honetly magic in Thedas is incredibly powerful.The roblem is that mages never use it intelligently.Blood mages outside of circles could instead of running from templars just go to the nearest noble,mind control them and be set for life.They could just walk into the royal palace and take over a country by mind cntrolling the king.The ones in cirlces could just mind control the templars and they would be free to do whatever they want...Orsino could have just mind controlled Meredith and then siezed power in Kirkwall.Any blood mage skilled in mind control could just leave a circle through the front door and have the templars give them their phylactery as a parting gift.The circles shouldn't have logically lasted anywhere near as long as they did.They whould have collapsed the moment they were tried.

Most mages however seem to be suffering from a very severe case of plot induced stuidity and not only do they not use their magic intelligently but they also haven't made any significant discoveries since... forever.Magic in thedas seems to be very powerful.It's just that mages seem to know very little about it...Imagine if every Teviner magister could extend their life like Averrnus did ?By all means they should have discovered something like that long ago..

That aside I consider myself a mage supermacist.I fully believe that mages should rule over mundanes.They are superior.This is a fact.And the difference between the two is enormous.In the long run it's better for everybody if mages are the ones in power.Will mundanes suffer and live through hell ?Yes and there's nothing wrong with that.It's how nature works.The strong thrive while the weak die.Eventually they would die out and mages would be the only ones left.The number of mages has been increasing and will keep doing so until they are the only ones left.Just compare a country composed solely of mages (Arlathan) to any other nation on Thedas.People lived forever there.They had means of teleportation and were capable of many things even our modern society could only dream of and this was during the medieval ages.If everybody is immortal people would be far more knwoledgable and most of the problems that plague our soceity would be gone.

In a nation where everyone is a mage mageocracy is a far superior system to democracy.It would ensure that only the capable and intelligent people end up as the ones in power since to be a powerful mage you would have to be intelligent and should you grow complacent and someone surpasses you you would lose your power.Also anyoen can become ruler in such a country assuming they are a powerful enough mage.That would be perfect equality right there.

The only reason Arlathan lost to Tevinter is because they lost their immortality.Arlathan should have been able to defeat every single country in modern day thedas combined.The only reason Tevinter won is because the old gods helped them and because the elves were probably too busy dealing with internal problems such as anarchy.Loss of immortality would not have gone well with the people.Imagine armies of varterals and arcane warriors.Mages who studied the arcane arts for thousands of years.Who could possibly fight against that ?

It literally took divine intervention for Arlathan and Tevinter to be defeated.Were it not for that both of these countries would have porbably never fallen.It just goes to show how much more powerful and stable mage ruled countries are.

[Netheren]

As a good a thread to start posting as any I guess. This discussion has somewhat gotten off the tracks, but I find it more interesting now actually.

The Grey Nayr: Yes, animals can rape and steal. I've worked on farms so I've seen animals rape each other (quite easy to see that it's rape when the poor animal is struggling to get away and expressing pain). F.ex among moose, younger males often try to mate through rape because they haven't learned the proper techniques of courtship. Older males don't make the same mistake.
And several animals steal as well. Monkeys f.ex. Some types of birds also steal from the nests of others because they are too lazy to make their own.
So animals do all that we do, and we do all that they do (we are animals after all). We just have better tools and we invent stupid reasons for doing things.

Commander Kurt: Having a family unit doesn't mean the individual has to be monogamous though. A lot of children grow up with the "wrong" father f.ex. Many women seek strong, aggressive men to mate with (since they have good genes), but since these men are more interested in planting their seed everywhere, they find more suitable men to raise these children and provide for the family.
This is a horrible betrayal of course and I don't support anyone who does it, but it's quite natural.

To the topic itself: Emotions don't have to be separate from logic.
The emotions that make us help each other are evolutionally logical as humans are social animals and emotions like love or simple caring about others increases the chances of survival for each individual.
Emotions like hate and anger helps the individual survive against threaths.
One can ask though whether it is logical for nature to be organized in such a way that everyone strives for survival.
The again if the tranquil would decide that the most logical thing to do would be to exterminate all life, people (both mages and templars) would overrule their decision.
I don't think that a normal human being with emotions is incapable of making a logical decision and as such we don't really need the tranquil for that.
I also don't think that an emotionless being would necessarily make a choice that is logical to emotional creatures.

"Long post, I know. Kudos to whoever reads it. Sorry for mistakes in language. I'm not a native english speaker. "