293 réponses à ce sujet

[Deucetipher]

Constant Motion wrote...


I've found that the people in support of geth biotics are the people who haven't really considered what biotics are, and people against it are arguing semantically, because describing what counts as biotic is the exact nature of the argument.

Mass relays are synthetic and manipulate mass effect fields in a way that's similar to biotics, but that's a level of technology way beyond geth. Geth can't manipulate biotics because they're quarian robots, not intergalactic superbrains from beyond the known universe. A biotic geth would be a bit like a dinosaur with a laser on its head. It'd be like neolithic man making a functional blu-ray player out of twigs. Sure, it's theoretically possible, but in the context of the setting it's basically nonsense.

Geth adepts are beyond illogical. Why on earth do you even want a geth with biotics? It's just a picture. Got a great idea for a biotic geth? Great. Now give the powers to a class that isn't a geth. Everybody's happy.

Your agrument defeats itself! See how awesome dinosaur lasers are!
 
Seriously though:

In my defense, I've been pretty careful to strictly define "biotic" in my arguments.  Besides, we don't have to look to mass relays to see sythetic emulation of biotics.  Consider kinetic barriers, guns and ships.  Plus, Geth tech is seemingly beyond that of the quarians anyway.

Modifié par Deucetipher, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:20 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Well, they can give pretty much anyone biotic abilities through their technology.

I'd guess the reason why they only choose to give organics these abilities is because it's easier than to adapt synthetics to suit their needs. Which also would be a tad counterproductive for them, since they're going to destroy the synthetics in the end anyway.

Where is this stated that they can give Biotics to whoever they please?
I mean amongst their troops there's only one Biotic (Banshees)? Or is that something Javik mentions?

[IoeShepard]

If we get Geth biotics
then we need Space Hamster Vanguards too.

By the way let the poor fella on the Normandy out of the box once in while - ok ?
Always locked up in that thing is really no fun.

Just hope they come in BLUE !
That would be amazing.
I although have a kit for it - reave, dominate and annihilate -> plus charge of course.

Modifié par IoeShepard, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:22 .

[xtorma]

It's the use of the word "biotic" that people think breaks lore. Geth would use mass effect fields to produce biotic like powers mimicing them.

[Pyroninja42]

xtorma wrote...

It's the use of the word "biotic" that people think breaks lore. Geth would use mass effect fields to produce biotic like powers mimicing them.

We could call it "Synthics".

Burnt orange biotic powers! 

[Deucetipher]

Mahrac wrote...


Which means that they wouldn't be biotics (by deffinition), unless they were new models with a fully functioning replication of a nervous system. That in and of itself would bring in new problems (laying down two sets of circuits possibly, repairs would be more complicated, dealing with overloads, ect).

The more I think on it, it seems possible to have geth biotics (with some limits) but it would be horrible inefficient so the geth would probably never make any.

Well, this was always about theoretical possibility, not feasibility.  I'd conjecture that geth engineering can surpass the limitations you mention, but I have no real evidence to support that claim.  Again as I've said, I've been using "biotic" as a shorthand for "mass effect field generation and manipulation," so I know they wouldn't be technically biotics, but that difference is academic. 

Modifié par Deucetipher, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:26 .

[Someone With Mass]

Poison_Berrie wrote...
Where is this stated that they can give Biotics to whoever they please?
I mean amongst their troops there's only one Biotic (Banshees)? Or is that something Javik mentions?

TIM, Kai Leng and Paul Grayson.

None of these had natural biotics.

[Deucetipher]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Poison_Berrie wrote...
Where is this stated that they can give Biotics to whoever they please?
I mean amongst their troops there's only one Biotic (Banshees)? Or is that something Javik mentions?

TIM, Kai Leng and Paul Grayson.

None of these had natural biotics.

QFT.  Also, the krogans.
From the wiki
The krogan developed a surgical procedure that was able to confer biotic ability, but the operation had a high mortality rate, so it was discontinued following the release of the genophage.

EDIT: BTW, SomeoneWithMass, we apparently joined BSN the same day.

Modifié par Deucetipher, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:29 .

[mrcanada]

Because there aren't any in the games. They are machines. I don't care about lore, it's just a silly idea.

[KiraTsukasa]

Pyroninja42 wrote...

^Thread.

There's absolutely NOTHING suggestining that the Geth can't have biotic powers.

This.

Modifié par KiraTsukasa, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:31 .

[adi21]

IoeShepard wrote...


If we get Geth biotics
then we need Space Hamster Vanguards too.

By the way let the poor fella on the Normandy out of the box once in while - ok ?
Always locked up in that thing is really no fun.

Just hope they come in BLUE !
That would be amazing.
I although have a kit for it - reave, dominate and annihilate -> plus charge of course.

 I'd pay for that if they made it a DLC.

[LoonySpectre]

Even the Reaper-indoctrinated geth still got no biotic abilities from them.

[staindgrey]

In all honesty, while I don't see a point in Geth biotics (I mean, to avoid controversy, just throw those same biotic powers onto a different race; problem solved), they don't break lore.

The people arguing that the codex states, specifically, that biotics area manifestation of eezo in "tissue" are missing the point. It's would be like arguing that, because a car is a motorized vehicle that moves on wheels, taking those wheels away to make a hover car would be breaking the rules of automobiles. Obviously, that's the wrong emphasis; the wheels aren't the important part. In this case, the tissue isn't the important part.

You know all those lore things about drive cores and mass effect fields and eezo-produced shielding... Okay. Those are, in essence, mechanical biotics. They are manipulating the properties of eezo to create otherwise physically impossible things. Those are mechanical biotics in action. There is absolutely nothing suggesting that a Geth platform couldn't do something similar for something besides shields.

That said, Geth biotics are a silly idea that don't need to happen. Kinda like having four freaking Volus kits.

[Mahrac]

Deucetipher wrote...

Mahrac wrote...


Which means that they wouldn't be biotics (by deffinition), unless they were new models with a fully functioning replication of a nervous system. That in and of itself would bring in new problems (laying down two sets of circuits possibly, repairs would be more complicated, dealing with overloads, ect).

The more I think on it, it seems possible to have geth biotics (with some limits) but it would be horrible inefficient so the geth would probably never make any.

Well, this was always about theoretical possibility, not feasibility.  I'd conjecture that geth engineering can surpass the limitations you mention, but I have no real evidence to support that claim.  Again as I've said, I've been using "biotic" as a shorthand for "mass effect field generation and manipulation," so I know they wouldn't be technically biotics, but that difference is academic. 

Did we just have a cordial disagreement on BSN that ended in accepting the other's opinion?

[jlee375]

Mahrac wrote...

Deucetipher wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

Slam is one of the powers with no 'travel time' which is why I chose it for an example, though no powers had to travel in ME1.  They were created where the user wanted while things like shields have to stay within a certain range of the projector

Perhaps a better phrase would have been originating from, rather than centered on, but the point stands that projectors seem to have a far shorter range than something created by an organic.

That article also reignforces my point that geth can't use biotic powers when it states that biotics are 'biologically controled'

I do think you raise an interesting point, but the question is how it can be generated by a biological adept.  However it is, it should be easily mimicked.  Since biotics are generated purely mechanically (sequentially fired nerves to trigger eezo nodules), any particular sequence of fired nerves triggering nodules is theoretically mechanically reproducible in a machine, even if it requires laying down an exact copy of a nervous system in wires with little balls of eezo to mimic the nodules.

We know that they have to project in some way from the biotic, even if we don't exactly know how.

Worst case scenario, there are a handfule of powers that geth "adepts" cannot use, such as reave or slam, as they have no travel time.

Which means that they wouldn't be biotics (by deffinition), unless they were new models with a fully functioning replication of a nervous system. That in and of itself would bring in new problems (laying down two sets of circuits possibly, repairs would be more complicated, dealing with overloads, ect).

The more I think on it, it seems possible to have geth biotics (with some limits) but it would be horrible inefficient so the geth would probably never make any.

There is no evidence that mass effect field generation requires any aspect of the nervous system beyond the electrical current generated. If we look at the definition of a biotic, we can see that it is simply an organic being capable of creating and manipulating mass effect fields. 

Components for a Biotic:

1. Early exposure to Element Zero - Early exposure to element zero is hypothesized to generate nodules of eezo located within the biotic's body. Element zero can create mass effect fields when subjected to differing electrical currents. Element Zero is a necessary part of mass effect field generation.. 

2. Impulses from the CNS - Electrical impulses from the CNS are used to manipulate the element zero found within the body. The ELECTRICAL CURRENT is the necessary part for mass effect field generation as we can see since other technology can create mass effect fields with ELECTRICITY ONLY.

3. Implant - The implant modulates and amplifies the signals from the CNS, and produces the biotic effects. A necessary piece of technology for ORGANICS to create and utilize mass effect fields on a significant level. The technology that is used to control engines/reactors is probably similar in design and theory to these implants. 


Components for Mass Effect Field Generation and Manipulation:

1. Element Zero

2. Electrical Current

3. Some form of technology that allows you to direct and manipulate the mass effect fields 

There is nothing to suggest that there is something endemic to the CNS or the organic body that makes biotic powers possible solely in organics. We can see that technology in the universe can also produce the same effects without any of the organic components. 

All that is required for mass effect field generation is element zero, electrical current, and some sort of device that allows you to direct and manipulate the fields. The Geth can easily have access to the first two, and if technology exists to allow humans and synthetics with human like intelligence to manipulate mass effect fields in the context of engines/reactors, then it stands to reason that same technology could be used to produce effects that are identical to the effects created by biotic powers. 

Modifié par jlee375, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:44 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Pyroninja42 wrote...

Uh, no, it wouldn't. The Geth are living technology. They can build a dyson sphere. They can build enormous dreadnoughts. If there's one thing the Geth can do, it's figure out how to build platforms capable of generating mass effect fields to manipulate objects. 

Well to be fair dreadnoughts can be created by the other species as well, it's just that Geth economics are quite different from ours that they can build bigger and more with little consequence.
And the Dyson Sphere is, as far as the description goes, no more than an arrangement of individual stations, servers and solar power plants. It takes a different economy to build, but it's not like we couldn't create something similar if we could afford spending resources on such a thing.

[BiO]

Biotics is when an organic creates mass effect fields, so the Geth can not have Biotics. They can, however, create their own mass effect fields, and we see that in everything from their ships to their weaponry. So technically, Geth are already 'biotics'.

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Pyroninja42 wrote...

Uh, no, it wouldn't. The Geth are living technology. They can build a
dyson sphere. They can build enormous dreadnoughts. If there's one
thing the Geth can do, it's figure out how to build platforms capable of
generating mass effect fields to manipulate objects. 

Well
to be fair dreadnoughts can be created by the other species as well,
it's just that Geth economics are quite different from ours that they
can build bigger and more with little consequence.

Actually, the reason Council races don't have as many is because of the Treaty of Farixen.
http://masseffect.wi...eaty_of_Farixen

Modifié par BiO_MaN, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:40 .

[TerrorandLove]

I love the arguments for determining what a "lifeform" really is. Not that I would want to start one here. Organic machine, inorganic machine. *shrug*

What matters is self-awareness.

Outside the topic I'd rather have more Salarians and another Quarian female in MP.

[IoeShepard]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Well, they can give pretty much anyone biotic abilities through their technology.

I'd guess the reason why they only choose to give organics these abilities is because it's easier than to adapt synthetics to suit their needs. Which also would be a tad counterproductive for them, since they're going to destroy the synthetics in the end anyway.

Where is this stated that they can give Biotics to whoever they please?
I mean amongst their troops there's only one Biotic (Banshees)? Or is that something Javik mentions?

I would like to know that too.

[Deucetipher]

staindgrey wrote...

In all honesty, while I don't see a point in Geth biotics (I mean, to avoid controversy, just throw those same biotic powers onto a different race; problem solved), they don't break lore.

The people arguing that the codex states, specifically, that biotics area manifestation of eezo in "tissue" are missing the point. It's would be like arguing that, because a car is a motorized vehicle that moves on wheels, taking those wheels away to make a hover car would be breaking the rules of automobiles. Obviously, that's the wrong emphasis; the wheels aren't the important part. In this case, the tissue isn't the important part.

You know all those lore things about drive cores and mass effect fields and eezo-produced shielding... Okay. Those are, in essence, mechanical biotics. They are manipulating the properties of eezo to create otherwise physically impossible things. Those are mechanical biotics in action. There is absolutely nothing suggesting that a Geth platform couldn't do something similar for something besides shields.

That said, Geth biotics are a silly idea that don't need to happen. Kinda like having four freaking Volus kits.

I actually made that same argument (mechanical biotics) nine frickin months ago (and a couple of pages ago) in a precursor to these threads (search Geth adepts), but this was always a question of theoretical possibility.  I orginally posited the thought in the context of new enemies, not PCs, which might still be interesting to revisit.

But yeah, I like your first your first argument and wish I had made it.  So pithy!

[Deucetipher]

Mahrac wrote...

Deucetipher wrote...

Mahrac wrote...


Which means that they wouldn't be biotics (by deffinition), unless they were new models with a fully functioning replication of a nervous system. That in and of itself would bring in new problems (laying down two sets of circuits possibly, repairs would be more complicated, dealing with overloads, ect).

The more I think on it, it seems possible to have geth biotics (with some limits) but it would be horrible inefficient so the geth would probably never make any.

Well, this was always about theoretical possibility, not feasibility.  I'd conjecture that geth engineering can surpass the limitations you mention, but I have no real evidence to support that claim.  Again as I've said, I've been using "biotic" as a shorthand for "mass effect field generation and manipulation," so I know they wouldn't be technically biotics, but that difference is academic. 

Did we just have a cordial disagreement on BSN that ended in accepting the other's opinion?

Double rainbow!!!!
Lol, yeah, guess so.  What the hell is wrong with us!

[Mahrac]

jlee375 wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

~snip~

Which means that they wouldn't be biotics (by deffinition), unless they were new models with a fully functioning replication of a nervous system. That in and of itself would bring in new problems (laying down two sets of circuits possibly, repairs would be more complicated, dealing with overloads, ect).

The more I think on it, it seems possible to have geth biotics (with some limits) but it would be horrible inefficient so the geth would probably never make any.

There is no evidence that mass effect field generation requires any aspect of the nervous system beyond the electrical current generated. If we look at the definition of a biotic, we can see that it is simply an organic being capable of creating and manipulating mass effect fields. 

Components for a Biotic:

1. Early exposure to Element Zero - Early exposure to element zero is hypothesized to generate nodules of eezo located within the biotic's body. Element zero can create mass effect fields when subjected to differing electrical currents. Element Zero is a necessary part of mass effect field generation.. 

2. Impulses from the CNS - Electrical impulses from the CNS are used to manipulate the element zero found within the body. The ELECTRICAL CURRENT is the necessary part for mass effect field generation as we can see since other technology can create mass effect fields with ELECTRICITY ONLY.

3. Implant - The implant modulates and amplifies the signals from the CNS, and produces the biotic effects. A necessary piece of technology for ORGANICS to create and utilize mass effect fields. The technology that is used to control engines/reactors is probably similar in design and theory to these implants. 


Components for Mass Effect Field Generation and Manipulation:

1. Element Zero

2. Electrical Current

3. Some form of technology that allows you to direct and manipulate the mass effect fields 

There is nothing to suggest that there is something endemic to the CNS or the organic body that makes biotic powers possible solely in organics. We can see that technology in the universe can also produce the same effects without any of the organic components. 

All that is required for mass effect field generation is element zero, electrical current, and some sort of device that allows you to direct and manipulate the fields. The Geth can easily have access to the first two, and if technology exists to allow humans and synthetics with human like intelligence to manipulate mass effect fields in the context of engines/reactors, then it stands to reason that same technology could be used to produce effects that are identical to the effects created by biotic powers. 

And the geth would need another set of circuits to act as said CNS unless you want them to send the pulses along circuits that preform other actions, and possibly fry themselves. Using existing circuits could screw with the the electronics in them already and do more damage that it's worth. A second set, on the other hand, means that you have to cram that much more into the chassis and repairs would take more materials.

Even then they'd be reliant on projectors which would make their effective range shorter than an organics, unless they had huge projectors that would be too cumbersome for combat situations.

Modifié par Mahrac, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:50 .

[Cole Jones]

Probably because they don't have nervous systems

[staindgrey]

Cole Jones wrote...

Probably because they don't have nervous systems

They have something akin to a CNS if they can move their bodies in very minuscule ways on twitch reflexes.

Also, a ship's drive core doesn't have a CNS, yet it manipulates eezo just fine. 

[Cole Jones]

staindgrey wrote...

Cole Jones wrote...

Probably because they don't have nervous systems

They have something akin to a CNS if they can move their bodies in very minuscule ways on twitch reflexes.

Also, a ship's drive core doesn't have a CNS, yet it manipulates eezo just fine. 

They also have billion's upon billion's of lines of code to allow for that. Geth as a single platform. Don't.

That and for the life of me I can't recall a time when any ship fired off a Singularity and made an explosion with Warp.

Modifié par Cole Jones, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:50 .