293 réponses à ce sujet

[CreoleLakerFan]

Cole Jones wrote...

Probably because they don't have nervous systems

Or body tissues in which element zero nodules can be embedded.  Hey, maybe that's what that whole Project Overlord was really about - creating a geth Biotic.  Except it seems that somehow the Borg Collective got involved, putting screws to the whole project.

Dr. Noonien Soong would be disappoint.  I'm sure his preference would be to embed Eezo directly into a positronix matrix .

[Blitzkrieg_33]

Cole Jones wrote...

They also have billion's upon billion's of lines of code to allow for that. Geth as a single platform. Don't.

That and for the life of me I can't recall a time when any ship fired off a Singularity and made an explosion with Warp.

You're saying that the geth, one of the most advanced VI's in the universe, don't have billions upon billions of lines of code?

Biotics use barriers = Ships use barriers

Biotics use charge = Ships use ftl travel based on the same principle

Biotics use push/pull = Ships use mass effect fields to "push" slugs.

Modifié par Blitzkrieg_33, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:55 .

[Deucetipher]

Cole Jones wrote...

staindgrey wrote...

Cole Jones wrote...

Probably because they don't have nervous systems

They have something akin to a CNS if they can move their bodies in very minuscule ways on twitch reflexes.

Also, a ship's drive core doesn't have a CNS, yet it manipulates eezo just fine. 

They also have billion's upon billion's of lines of code to allow for that. Geth as a single platform. Don't.

That and for the life of me I can't recall a time when any ship fired off a Singularity and made an explosion with Warp.

If the code is a problem, you're forgetting the disctinction between platforms and "geth."  Any single platform can have a hugely variable amount of geth in it.  See Legion.

[Torguemada]

Mahrac wrote...
And the geth would need another set of circuits to act as said CNS unless you want them to send the pulses along circuits that preform other actions, and possibly fry themselves.

Do organic biotic have a secondary nervous system for controlling biotic power, nope.
So geth wouldn't need one either.

[mrcanada]

Blitzkrieg_33 wrote...

Cole Jones wrote...

They also have billion's upon billion's of lines of code to allow for that. Geth as a single platform. Don't.

That and for the life of me I can't recall a time when any ship fired off a Singularity and made an explosion with Warp.

You're saying that the geth, one of the most advanced VI's in the universe, don't have billions upon billions of lines of code?

Biotics use barriers = Ships use barriers

Biotics use charge = Ships use ftl travel

Biotics use push/pull = Ships use mass effect fields to "push" slugs.

Ships use shields and the things you are talking of are massive stationary creations. Geth can't use biotics on singular platforms otherwise we would have seen it by now. It doesn't fit whatsoever within the Geth outline.

[jlee375]

CreoleLakerFan wrote...

Cole Jones wrote...

Probably because they don't have nervous systems

Or body tissues in which element zero nodules can be embedded.  Hey, maybe that's what that whole Project Overlord was really about - creating a geth Biotic.  Except it seems that somehow the Borg Collective got involved, putting screws to the whole project.

Dr. Noonien Soong would be disappoint.  I'm sure his preference would be to embed Eezo directly into a positronix matrix .

The generation of mass effect fields, whether by organics or by technology, requires a source of element zero. It is a requirement for organics to have element zero embedded, simply because it is a requirement for mass effect field generation in the first place. 

[oO Stryfe Oo]

It's not that it won't work. For me, it's more "a Geth tech Sentinel is much more likely and we probably won't see more than 1 new Geth kit, if any".

[Deucetipher]

mrcanada wrote...

Blitzkrieg_33 wrote...

Cole Jones wrote...

They also have billion's upon billion's of lines of code to allow for that. Geth as a single platform. Don't.

That and for the life of me I can't recall a time when any ship fired off a Singularity and made an explosion with Warp.

You're saying that the geth, one of the most advanced VI's in the universe, don't have billions upon billions of lines of code?

Biotics use barriers = Ships use barriers

Biotics use charge = Ships use ftl travel

Biotics use push/pull = Ships use mass effect fields to "push" slugs.

Ships use shields and the things you are talking of are massive stationary creations. Geth can't use biotics on singular platforms otherwise we would have seen it by now. It doesn't fit whatsoever within the Geth outline.

Dude, shield are shorthand for kinetic barriers, generated through mass effect tech.
http://masseffect.wi...Shields.22.29_2

Since individual geth are shielded, bazinga.  Also, their guns also use ME tech.

EDIT: sorry, that came off a bit rudely.  It's just that I've made all these arguments already a couple of pages back, so I was a bit exasperated.

Modifié par Deucetipher, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:03 .

[Blitzkrieg_33]

mrcanada wrote...

Ships use shields and the things you are talking of are massive stationary creations. Geth can't use biotics on singular platforms otherwise we would have seen it by now. It doesn't fit whatsoever within the Geth outline.

They are massive becuase the amount of mass they are manipulating is massive. A smaller mass would require a smaller generator, and so on.

We didn't see female turians until just now, doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Also, geth bomber

Also, dragoon

Not sure how you know what the geth outline is, unless you are a geth operative in disguise.

[Cole Jones]

Blitzkrieg_33 wrote...

mrcanada wrote...

Ships use shields and the things you are talking of are massive stationary creations. Geth can't use biotics on singular platforms otherwise we would have seen it by now. It doesn't fit whatsoever within the Geth outline.

They are massive becuase the amount of mass they are manipulating is massive. A smaller mass would require a smaller generator, and so on.

We didn't see female turians until just now, doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Also, geth bomber

Also, dragoon

Not sure how you know what the geth outline is, unless you are a geth operative in disguise.

Dragoon and Bomber's could of just stayed in Never ever land. And Bomber's are just Re skinned geth drones from ME1

[Blitzkrieg_33]

Cole Jones wrote...

Dragoon and Bomber's could of just stayed in Never ever land. And Bomber's are just Re skinned geth drones from ME1

Still fails to prove how a geth weilding biotic-like powers by manipulating an internal mass effect field generator would be impossible.

[Cole Jones]

Blitzkrieg_33 wrote...

Cole Jones wrote...

They also have billion's upon billion's of lines of code to allow for that. Geth as a single platform. Don't.

That and for the life of me I can't recall a time when any ship fired off a Singularity and made an explosion with Warp.

You're saying that the geth, one of the most advanced VI's in the universe, don't have billions upon billions of lines of code?

Biotics use barriers = Ships use barriers

Biotics use charge = Ships use ftl travel based on the same principle

Biotics use push/pull = Ships use mass effect fields to "push" slugs.

Barrier's are Pure Biotic energy, Shields are at best Gravity shields from my best understanding.

The FTL Lowers the ship's mass to 0, Charge is essential using throw on themselves.

Their cannon's are Railguns that lower the slug's mass to get more speed. Would be better if they used slower heavier slugs really.

[Mahrac]

Torguemada wrote...

Mahrac wrote...
And the geth would need another set of circuits to act as said CNS unless you want them to send the pulses along circuits that preform other actions, and possibly fry themselves.

Do organic biotic have a secondary nervous system for controlling biotic power, nope.
So geth wouldn't need one either.

False comparison.

The geth are entirely electronic while we only use impulses. If I were to shock myself badly enough, I could go in to spasms or damage my muscles. If a geth were to intentionally pulse it's electronics it's movements would become jerky at best and compleatly nonsensical at worst. Or could do irreversible damage to its hardwear.

The difference being that an organic needs an outside shock while the geth would be doing this on its own.




For the record, I am now pro-biotic geth, and this is simply going in to what would be needed lore-wise.

Modifié par Mahrac, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:12 .

[staindgrey]

Cole Jones wrote...

staindgrey wrote...

Cole Jones wrote...

Probably because they don't have nervous systems

They have something akin to a CNS if they can move their bodies in very minuscule ways on twitch reflexes.

Also, a ship's drive core doesn't have a CNS, yet it manipulates eezo just fine. 

They also have billion's upon billion's of lines of code to allow for that. Geth as a single platform. Don't.

That and for the life of me I can't recall a time when any ship fired off a Singularity and made an explosion with Warp.

Uh... I don't think it's the coding that matters. It's the hardware. (But to your point, the Geth Consensus is the largest bundle of coding in the galaxy. So... yeah.) I could code a sweet Windows 8 App, but it won't matter if it's on a Pentium II processor. Get it?

The insistence that there HAS to be living tissue in order to manipulate eezo in a way that results in what we casually term "biotics" is misguided. Ships don't "fire off a Singularity and make an explosion with Warp" because that's impractical. They'd rather use their drive cores for heavy duty barriers, FTL traveling and weaponry. You know why an organic uses Singularity and Warp? Because he doesn't have access to a few metric tons of metal created for FTL speeds, etc. So instead, he does BEs. It's all the same concept, all the same eezo, different goals. Creating the hardware in a ship to 'fire off a Singularity" would be pointless when they have cannons to fire.

Should the Geth Consensus actually deem a biotic platform to be a worthy effort, it wouldn't take them long at all to create it. Likely, we haven't seen one because theyfound it to be not worth their effort. They don't seek war the way that organics do. But when their self-preservation is at risk due to a Reaper invasion, yeah, I could see them finally deciding to make a biotically capable platform. Particularly after they have the ability to become true, individual AIs with individual ideas. Like organics.

[Blitzkrieg_33]

Cole Jones wrote...

Barrier's are Pure Biotic energy, Shields are at best Gravity shields from my best understanding.

"Kinetic barriers, colloquially called "shields", provide protection against most mass accelerator weapons. Whether on a starship or a soldier's suit of armor, the basic principle remains the same."

Modifié par Blitzkrieg_33, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:10 .

[Sesquipedalian4]

I thought I was possible Geth could manipulate mass effect fields. Having biotics means you have to be exposed and affected by Eezo, so technically Geth won't be true biotics, at leat according to what I know, correct me if I'm wrong. Also, if a Geth had a mass effect field generator in it, wouldn't that destroy the Geth because its too small to handle it? Just some thoughts.

[Poison_Berrie]

jlee375 wrote...

There is nothing to suggest that there is something endemic to the CNS or the organic body that makes biotic powers possible solely in organics. We can see that technology in the universe can also produce the same effects without any of the organic components. 

All that is required for mass effect field generation is element zero, electrical current, and some sort of device that allows you to direct and manipulate the fields. The Geth can easily have access to the first two, and if technology exists to allow humans and synthetics with human like intelligence to manipulate mass effect fields in the context of engines/reactors, then it stands to reason that same technology could be used to produce effects that are identical to the effects created by biotic powers. 

Then why are Biotics so rare? Why aren't there robotic suits or power armors that do these things with a garuantee?

Fact is that Biotics among organics can be created, but that this isn't very efficient and there are little garuantees about what you get and how many don't make it.
So if it's that simple to you know do it a different way, through machinery why isn't that the norm?

[darkblade]

There is no lore reason why they can't do it.

But it would be highly inefficient, so I assume that is the main reason.

[Clayless]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

jlee375 wrote...

There is nothing to suggest that there is something endemic to the CNS or the organic body that makes biotic powers possible solely in organics. We can see that technology in the universe can also produce the same effects without any of the organic components. 

All that is required for mass effect field generation is element zero, electrical current, and some sort of device that allows you to direct and manipulate the fields. The Geth can easily have access to the first two, and if technology exists to allow humans and synthetics with human like intelligence to manipulate mass effect fields in the context of engines/reactors, then it stands to reason that same technology could be used to produce effects that are identical to the effects created by biotic powers. 

Then why are Biotics so rare? Why aren't there robotic suits or power armors that do these things with a garuantee?

Fact is that Biotics among organics can be created, but that this isn't very efficient and there are little garuantees about what you get and how many don't make it.
So if it's that simple to you know do it a different way, through machinery why isn't that the norm?

While I might be completely off the mark about what you're talking about (I haven't being paying attention to your argument):

Mass effect generating technology is the norm. Traynor's toothbrush for example.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:18 .

[Nissun]

I'm not really interested in this debate, but if geth could theoretically use biotics according to mass effect's scientific explanation for "biotics", then wouldn't any person with enough implants be able to do it, too?

Just... implant themselves with the same things that would allow geth to be biotics, you know? Technology.

[jlee375]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

jlee375 wrote...

There is nothing to suggest that there is something endemic to the CNS or the organic body that makes biotic powers possible solely in organics. We can see that technology in the universe can also produce the same effects without any of the organic components. 

All that is required for mass effect field generation is element zero, electrical current, and some sort of device that allows you to direct and manipulate the fields. The Geth can easily have access to the first two, and if technology exists to allow humans and synthetics with human like intelligence to manipulate mass effect fields in the context of engines/reactors, then it stands to reason that same technology could be used to produce effects that are identical to the effects created by biotic powers. 

Then why are Biotics so rare? Why aren't there robotic suits or power armors that do these things with a garuantee?

Fact is that Biotics among organics can be created, but that this isn't very efficient and there are little garuantees about what you get and how many don't make it.
So if it's that simple to you know do it a different way, through machinery why isn't that the norm?

Because early exposure to element zero does not GUARANTEE that individuals will safely develop eezo nodules and tolerance. Most individual's immune systems and bodies would reject acceptance of such a foreign and likely toxic element. 

I would guess that the Geth haven't tried to develop such technology simply because they haven't seen the need to. As we can all agree, biotic powers are relatively rare amongst all races, and it doesn't seem very tactical or intelligent to risk losing them by having them just serve as artillery. The Geth likely believe that they can simply counter the rare biotics they do face with conventional warfare and tactics. 


N.B.
Also, Ive said this many times before, but the internet is really bad at conveying emotion or intent. I am not in any way trying to be mean or antagonistic, I am simply participating in an argument I find interesting from a lore perspective, 

Modifié par jlee375, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:22 .

[staindgrey]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Then why are Biotics so rare? Why aren't there robotic suits or power armors that do these things with a garuantee?

Fact is that Biotics among organics can be created, but that this isn't very efficient and there are little garuantees about what you get and how many don't make it.
So if it's that simple to you know do it a different way, through machinery why isn't that the norm?

The actual act of manipulating eezo isn't rare at all. All those lore descriptions about "mass effect fields" are, essentially, biotics. What changes when it comes to an organic biotic is that they can mentally manipulate the eezo for intended effects, like lifting a target then throwing it to the ground. Mentally. As in, learn to use it with their mind. A mechanical interface using a combat VI would be severely limited in its use, but effectively, it'd be the same. Because of that, they'd rather stick to using machinery to manipulate eezo in the area of FTL speeds and shielding and weaponry, etc. Simple guns using the mass effect premise for firing are FAR more economical than trying to design and mass produce a biotic exoskeleton.

If only there were an entire race of sentient machines with the means to not only create these things, but individually manipulate eezo for specific biotic effects. But that would require being able to do other things that an individual organic can do, like moving, thinking, using weaponry...

...Wait. 

Modifié par staindgrey, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:21 .

[Boceto]

Nissun wrote...

I'm not really interested in this debate, but if geth could theoretically use biotics according to mass effect's scientific explanation for "biotics", then wouldn't any person with enough implants be able to do it, too?

Just... implant themselves with the same things that would allow geth to be biotics, you know? Technology.

Exactly. Well, the implants would need to be modified to 'fit' each species though. Human biotics use implants as well. Therotecally it might conflict with organs (like some implants used by humans did) but since geth are not organic it could work fine.

[Someone With Mass]

Cole Jones wrote...

Barrier's are Pure Biotic energy, Shields are at best Gravity shields from my best understanding.

The FTL Lowers the ship's mass to 0, Charge is essential using throw on themselves.

Their cannon's are Railguns that lower the slug's mass to get more speed. Would be better if they used slower heavier slugs really.

Here's a fact that might be a little shocking for you:

Barriers and shields...are the same damn thing. They're mass effect fields projected from something/someone to stop high velocity projectiles.

[darkblade]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

jlee375 wrote...

There is nothing to suggest that there is something endemic to the CNS or the organic body that makes biotic powers possible solely in organics. We can see that technology in the universe can also produce the same effects without any of the organic components. 

All that is required for mass effect field generation is element zero, electrical current, and some sort of device that allows you to direct and manipulate the fields. The Geth can easily have access to the first two, and if technology exists to allow humans and synthetics with human like intelligence to manipulate mass effect fields in the context of engines/reactors, then it stands to reason that same technology could be used to produce effects that are identical to the effects created by biotic powers. 

Then why are Biotics so rare? Why aren't there robotic suits or power armors that do these things with a garuantee?

Fact is that Biotics among organics can be created, but that this isn't very efficient and there are little garuantees about what you get and how many don't make it.
So if it's that simple to you know do it a different way, through machinery why isn't that the norm?

But it is normal, they have machines that do everything a biotic does, weapons and torpedoes and grenades can do want biotics do, weapon ammo can be modded to do what biotics do.

you aren't thinking logically. Why add something expensive and inefficient to something cheap and efficient? 

Why make hardsuit that emulate biotics when Biotic soldiers already drain resources because of specialized training, implants, medical care, and increased rations. Even then training, fielding, and maintaining a biotic soldier is probably cheaper than building a biotic battlesuit and testing it.

What real battlefield advantage does a biotic have over a tech specialist? 

All biotics would do for mechs is make them overheat faster.