293 réponses à ce sujet

[Boceto]

tictactucrac wrote...

Boceto wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Geth Bombers aren't officially part of the lore yet, but anyone else ever wonder how they hover and move in the air? Hmm...

Imagine Bioware would now tell us they're able to hover in the air because they've got biotics, I'd love too see the faces of the people saying biotic geth would be breaking the lore 

Bioware broke its own lore several times to stop child complains ("Y U NO ADD BIOTIC GOD BIOWER?"), it wouldn't surprise me.

Bioware creates the lore. If they break it it gets changed.
And could you please explain why geth shouldn't be able to use implants that make it possible to use biotics? And why there are generators for biotic barriers?

[Alijah Green]

 when Geth biotic comes BSN member will

[Caligno]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Caligno wrote...

A geth using biotics would literally be one of the dumbest things they can do to themselves. Since a geth relies entirely on electric currents to do every function within their platform, it's extremely dangerous to have a substance that reacts to those currents to do possibly unpredictable things.

What happens if the geth platform gets overloaded? Suddenly there's a lot of extra current going through the platform, which adds more of an impulse through the eezo nodules. What happens then? You could easily wipe out a geth platoon and lose a battle for your side within a few overloads.

Why take the risk? They obviously don't need any form of biotics, and the biotics they may or may not be able to get are too much of an unknown to even think of trying.

So basically, it doesn't matter whether they can or can't. They aren't going to. Period.

Arguments about how dangerous they might be aren't arguments against them being possible, or in a way, included.

We know that the Geth take risks, look at the Prime for example, with those destroyed it would adversly affect all Geth surrounding them due to the massive amounts of processing lost, but the power they bring can seen as being worth the risk.

Geth Biotics could have massive risks, but the rewards could make up for it. Maybe not enough for them to be comon, but enough for them to be rare, like current biotics.

There's a big difference between using a Prime and using biotics. Using a prime, they know exactly what the risks are and what will happen if things go wrong.

We already know that the geth don't like uncertainties (that's why the quarians still exist). Having biotics go wrong is an uncertainty. They don't know what will happen. That is BAD.

[Deucetipher]

nicethugbert wrote...

Deucetipher wrote...

In case my point wasn't clear, geth already use "biotics" in the form of kinetic barriers.
http://masseffect.wi...22Shields.22.29

Quote:
Kinetic barriers are repulsive mass effect fields projected from tiny emitters. These shields safely deflect small objects traveling at rapid velocities. This affords protection from bullets and other dangerous projectiles, but still allows the user to sit down without knocking away their chair.

By that reasoning, anything using mass effect fields is biotic.  But, if I understand correctly, biotics requires fleshy bits.  Otherwise, it's just plain old tech.

I agree. You should look at my first post in this thread.  My follow up comment is that the word "biotic" may not be correct, but the difference is academic.  As a practical matter, a geth using mass-effect field manipulation technology is a "biotic," just minus the biology.  That's just nomenclature though.  The question is whether the machines can emulate the actual effects, which I think they clearly can.

[Alijah Green]

Boceto wrote...

tictactucrac wrote...

Boceto wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Geth Bombers aren't officially part of the lore yet, but anyone else ever wonder how they hover and move in the air? Hmm...

Imagine Bioware would now tell us they're able to hover in the air because they've got biotics, I'd love too see the faces of the people saying biotic geth would be breaking the lore 

Bioware broke its own lore several times to stop child complains ("Y U NO ADD BIOTIC GOD BIOWER?"), it wouldn't surprise me.

Bioware creates the lore. If they break it it gets changed.
And could you please explain why geth shouldn't be able to use implants that make it possible to use biotics? And why there are generators for biotic barriers?

stuck in some weird fantasy land I guess

[Someone With Mass]

Pyroninja42 wrote...

Using mass effect fields to manipulate objects = biotics.

Exactly. Biotics is just a word used when it's done by organics.

In a more accurate term, the geth would be manipulating mass effect/dark energy fields instead. Which they already can.

[PsiMatrix]

My Krogan's Lift Grenades would like a word with all those who say 'Geth can't have Biotics'.

Incidentally; Hamburgers don't contain Ham, analgesics don't have anything to do with your rear end and batteries have nothing to with bats. So when people say 'Biotics' they probably don't mean the process but the end result.

Remember the tech of the MEU revolves around manipulation of ME fields. Ships travel through space using a form of (Biotic) Charge as do the weapons and they can contain a Lift field inside a grenade (which counts as a Biotic kill).

[Grayson52]

SKhalazza wrote...

tictactucrac wrote...

"Biotic abilities are of varying rarity and status in other species:
Asari - All asari are naturally biotic to some degree, and though not all choose to develop their abilities, those who do pursue training usually display formidable ability. They do not require implants to use biotics effectively, nor do they need to undergo special training to acquire conscious neural control; their reproductive physiology grants them this ability from birth. Biotic ability is mandatory for asari who want to go into military service. The most powerful train as asari commandos.
Batarians - There are some known batarian biotics who are trained as shock troopers and sentinels.
Collectors - All Collectors have a latent biotic potential which is activated if the Collector General takes control of their body and mind, transforming them into powerful and dangerous opponents.
Drell - The drell assassin Thane Krios is a biotic. It is unknown how widespread drell biotics are.
Krogan - The few krogan biotics are extremely powerful and often train to become krogan battlemasters like Skarr or Wrex. Before the genophage, biotic krogan who enlisted in the military would rise quickly through the ranks; the other soldiers were in fear and awe of them, so their superiors recognized they would command great respect as officers and promoted them. The krogan developed a surgical procedure that was able to confer biotic ability, but the operation had a high mortality rate, so it was discontinued following the release of the genophage.
Protheans - Javik is a Prothean biotic. It is unknown how widespread Prothean biotics were before their extinction.
Quarians - According to Tali, quarian biotics are very rare. It is speculated that this is due to their life aboard the Migrant Fleet. Element zero is such a rare resource that it is probably too precious to be "spent" on encouraging biotic potential in quarians, and because the quarians live aboard ships, any engine accident severe enough to release dust-form element zero would also be fatal to the crew.
Rachni - Rachni Brood Warriors appear to have some biotic abilities.
Salarians - Salarian biotics are unusual and highly prized. The salarian military does not risk them in the front lines but instead uses them in intelligence services.
Turians - Turian biotics are also uncommon, and generally not much more powerful than a human L3. They are viewed with suspicion by the general turian infantry and tend to be relegated to special units called Cabals, which are employed for key missions.
To date, there has been no mention of the biotic abilities of the hanar, elcor, raloi, volus, vorcha, or yahg or what role (if any) biotics play in their respective societies."


Where is Geth ? Oh, nowhere.

End of a line.

Hum, where are volus ? 

In ME2 there was a volus using red sand that had biotic abilities.  the wiki post must have over looked this.  
His dialog is where the term "biotic god" came from.

[Deucetipher]

Caligno wrote...


There's a big difference between using a Prime and using biotics. Using a prime, they know exactly what the risks are and what will happen if things go wrong.

We already know that the geth don't like uncertainties (that's why the quarians still exist). Having biotics go wrong is an uncertainty. They don't know what will happen. That is BAD.

They already carry mass effect field generators to create kinetic barriers.  Adding more wouldn't qualitatively change the risk, just quantitatively.  BTW, it seems as though kinetic barriers run nor real risk of massive overload, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that the same precautions could be taken in generators to emulate biotics.  Furthermore, I've never seen an adept explode.

[tictactucrac]

Boceto wrote...

tictactucrac wrote...

Boceto wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Geth Bombers aren't officially part of the lore yet, but anyone else ever wonder how they hover and move in the air? Hmm...

Imagine Bioware would now tell us they're able to hover in the air because they've got biotics, I'd love too see the faces of the people saying biotic geth would be breaking the lore 

Bioware broke its own lore several times to stop child complains ("Y U NO ADD BIOTIC GOD BIOWER?"), it wouldn't surprise me.

Bioware creates the lore. If they break it it gets changed.
And could you please explain why geth shouldn't be able to use implants that make it possible to use biotics? And why there are generators for biotic barriers?

Barrier generator = reapers technology. reapers = organic + synthetic. No point for this. (in another way, "generate a barrier" doesn't mean "control a barrier".)

For the first question, it was explained several times by several guys, in several ways in this thread, but you don't want to admit, so no, i can't explain you 

Modifié par tictactucrac, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:31 .

[Caligno]

PsiMatrix wrote...

My Krogan's Lift Grenades would like a word with all those who say 'Geth can't have Biotics'.

I don't understand what this proves. All it says that krogans have biotics, which we already know.

[Apl_Juice]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

How would you think a Warp? With electrical impulses to manipulate dark energy, controlled by the brain. Why do Biotics meditate? To gain a greater control of their biotics (see: Someone who can move and someone who spends time training to gain greater control over their movements, like a gymnast).

You have to show whats difference in electrical impulses controlled by an organic and one controlled by a synthetic. That is what we are arguing.

Saying that they might control it differently, that there is something different about electrical impulses based on how it's controlled, isn't an argument against Geth Biotics, as there's nothing in the entire universe to suggest that.

Saying that they're rare in organics, and that makes them special, is just perception and opinion, not an argument against Geth Biotics.

That is not how you create a Warp field, that description applies to all Biotic fields, between which there's obviously some sort of difference.

Electric Pulse + Amp + Eezo = Biotics
Electric Pulse + Amp + Eezo + ? = Warp

That unknown is what needs to be identified before anyone can say that Biotic Geth are possible in the current lore. The Brain is infinitely more complex than the body, and Biotics are infinitely more complex than flexibility; the two are incomparable.

And, if you take a step out of the confines of lore, saying that Biotics are rare is an argument against Geth Biotics. Would BioWare incorporate Elves and Orcs into Mass Effect? No. Could they? Yes. Stripping Biotics of a core element of their existence is not going to happen; an idea like that is simply bad lore and story crafting. Superpowers wouldn't be superpowers if everyone had them, for example.

The Codex isn't the end-all be-all source code of Mass Effect Lore. If it were, then I'd task anyone to explain why there's no women for half the races, or why Biotics use their arms to throw Warp fields, instead of simply having it fly out of my face toward the enemy. There is undoubtedly elements in the M.E. Universe that either have to be inferred from real life, theorized, or made at a later date. Yea, BioWare could make Geth Biotics possible by adding to or changing the lore. But in my opinion, they aren't possible now. If BioWare haven't made them yet, its likely not to happen.

[Someone With Mass]

Alijah Green wrote...

 when Geth biotic comes BSN member will
*snip*

I'd personally rather...



Edited with a more fitting picture.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:31 .

[Mahrac]

Deucetipher wrote...

Caligno wrote...

Deucetipher wrote...

In case my point wasn't clear, geth already use "biotics" in the form of kinetic barriers.
http://masseffect.wi...22Shields.22.29

Quote:
Kinetic barriers are repulsive mass effect fields projected from tiny emitters. These shields safely deflect small objects traveling at rapid velocities. This affords protection from bullets and other dangerous projectiles, but still allows the user to sit down without knocking away their chair.

This doesn't prove anything in the slightest. It's like stating that space ships are biotic because they have kinetic barriers.

That is the exact point I am trying to make.  "Biotics" are merely a way for organics to emulate existing mass effect field manipulation technology.

Furthermore, it seemingly disarms the tactical argument against geth "biotics" that you raised, as the geth clearly already run the risk of eezo overloads you raised earlier.

Just because something uses eezo doesn't mean that it uses biotics.

Biotics are stated to require use of a nervous system, which geth don't have. Whhile I have no doubt that the geth use Eezo in some way, I'd postulate that it's limited to the range of projectors, and has to be centered on themselves rather than something like slam which can be created in a certain range, dependent on the biotic's power, and is centered on whatever it's creator wishes.

[Tyrannus00]

Note:

Biotics is a fancy word for psyonics with space magic as a justification(what IS eezo?) because psyonics is a bad word in Sci-Fi culture nowadays. It's space magic. Everything runs off of space magic.

[Clayless]

Caligno wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Arguments about how dangerous they might be aren't arguments against them being possible, or in a way, included.

We know that the Geth take risks, look at the Prime for example, with those destroyed it would adversly affect all Geth surrounding them due to the massive amounts of processing lost, but the power they bring can seen as being worth the risk.

Geth Biotics could have massive risks, but the rewards could make up for it. Maybe not enough for them to be comon, but enough for them to be rare, like current biotics.

There's a big difference between using a Prime and using biotics. Using a prime, they know exactly what the risks are and what will happen if things go wrong.

We already know that the geth don't like uncertainties (that's why the quarians still exist). Having biotics go wrong is an uncertainty. They don't know what will happen. That is BAD.

Actually it's just an application of science and math. Like how we know what kind and size of explosion will be created when certain elements are attributed to say, 2kg of C4. Eezo would be no different. Like when the ship was destroyed at the start of ME3 it created an explosion, a powerful explosion, but an explosion consistant with the energy attributed to it.

So in other words it wouldn't be an uncertainty, the Geth would know the risks.

[Caligno]

Deucetipher wrote...

Caligno wrote...


There's a big difference between using a Prime and using biotics. Using a prime, they know exactly what the risks are and what will happen if things go wrong.

We already know that the geth don't like uncertainties (that's why the quarians still exist). Having biotics go wrong is an uncertainty. They don't know what will happen. That is BAD.

They already carry mass effect field generators to create kinetic barriers.  Adding more wouldn't qualitatively change the risk, just quantitatively.  BTW, it seems as though kinetic barriers run nor real risk of massive overload, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that the same precautions could be taken in generators to emulate biotics.  Furthermore, I've never seen an adept explode.

Kinetic barrier generators can't do anything else. That's the point. Running more current doesn't create any real risk besides breaking it.

Trying to emulate other things is much riskier. What if you're trying to emulate the actual powers used in game? Think of how much more likely it is to cause either something radically different or nothing at all when the exact current needed isn't met. Biotics deal in exacts; that's why they have to learn such precise control. Geth would be able to replicate it... until they were altered by the amount of electrical current going through their systems.

As for never seeing an adept explode, the only biotics on their team I can think of off hand are dragoons. Considering that they're Cerberus, they would likely have had some "upgrades" allowing them resistance to any kind of anti-biotic warfare. 

[Deucetipher]

Mahrac wrote...

Just because something uses eezo doesn't mean that it uses biotics.

Biotics are stated to require use of a nervous system, which geth don't have. While I have no doubt that the geth use Eezo in some way, I'd postulate that it's limited to the range of projectors, and has to be centered on themselves rather than something like slam which can be created in a certain range, dependent on the biotic's power, and is centered on whatever it's creator wishes.

Again, I am using the term "biotics" as shorthand for "mass-effect field generation and manipulation."  Noting says that a generator has to center the effect on the generator.  In fact, the opposite is true.
http://masseffect.wi...ss_Effect_Field

Mass effect field generation is pseudoscience, which means it follows its own rules.  There is no way for an adept to cause a slam to spontaneously arise around a target; it has to be projected from herself, which is why we have eezo nodules in a nervous system in the codex.  Whatever mechanic that an adept use to place a slam around a target is theoretically imitable by mass effect field manipulation technology.

[SKhalazza]

Does this unit have a soul ?

[Caligno]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Caligno wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Arguments about how dangerous they might be aren't arguments against them being possible, or in a way, included.

We know that the Geth take risks, look at the Prime for example, with those destroyed it would adversly affect all Geth surrounding them due to the massive amounts of processing lost, but the power they bring can seen as being worth the risk.

Geth Biotics could have massive risks, but the rewards could make up for it. Maybe not enough for them to be comon, but enough for them to be rare, like current biotics.

There's a big difference between using a Prime and using biotics. Using a prime, they know exactly what the risks are and what will happen if things go wrong.

We already know that the geth don't like uncertainties (that's why the quarians still exist). Having biotics go wrong is an uncertainty. They don't know what will happen. That is BAD.

Actually it's just an application of science and math. Like how we know what kind and size of explosion will be created when certain elements are attributed to say, 2kg of C4. Eezo would be no different. Like when the ship was destroyed at the start of ME3 it created an explosion, a powerful explosion, but an explosion consistant with the energy attributed to it.

So in other words it wouldn't be an uncertainty, the Geth would know the risks.

...

Biotics and explosions aren't the same thing by a long shot. Explosions can be measured before they happen. Biotics aren't so easy to measure. Even if they knew exactly what would happen at each amount of electrical current, they would have to know that at a significant amount of them, there would be negative consequences.

And with overloads, the idea that there is an exact amount without any variance is ludicrous. Just the place it hits at would change it significantly. That makes it an unknown again.

[Tyrannus00]

SKhalazza wrote...

Does this unit have a soul ?

Yes. *shotgun*

[DiebytheSword]

IMO, it's hair splitting. You can have a Geth manipulate dark energy through some sort of device or devices. You can't technically call it biotic, because BIO in the word suggest an organic organism. Being synthetic means it can't have exactly that, but it doesn't mean that the Geth are incapable of duplicating the mass effect with technology on a platform scale.

[Deucetipher]

Caligno wrote...

Kinetic barrier generators can't do anything else. That's the point. Running more current doesn't create any real risk besides breaking it.

Trying to emulate other things is much riskier. What if you're trying to emulate the actual powers used in game? Think of how much more likely it is to cause either something radically different or nothing at all when the exact current needed isn't met. Biotics deal in exacts; that's why they have to learn such precise control. Geth would be able to replicate it... until they were altered by the amount of electrical current going through their systems.

As for never seeing an adept explode, the only biotics on their team I can think of off hand are dragoons. Considering that they're Cerberus, they would likely have had some "upgrades" allowing them resistance to any kind of anti-biotic warfare. 

Why is it riskier to emulate other things?  Barrier is a biotic power that kinetic barriers mimic safely (or vice versa, but that's semantics).  Why cannot other biotic techniques be emulated?  

I feel as though you are making assertions that aren't even tangentially supported by extrapolating from what evidence we do have.  "We" have also fought Asari commandos, as well as a slew of low rent biotically charged mercenaries, as well as any number of other foes that I am forgetting.

[Clayless]

Apl_J wrote...

That is not how you create a Warp field, that description applies to all Biotic fields, between which there's obviously some sort of difference.

Electric Pulse + Amp + Eezo = Biotics
Electric Pulse + Amp + Eezo + ? = Warp

That unknown is what needs to be identified before anyone can say that Biotic Geth are possible in the current lore. The Brain is infinitely more complex than the body, and Biotics are infinitely more complex than flexibility; the two are incomparable.

It's the brain manipulating dark energy through the use of electrical impulses. The same way the brain uses electrical impulses to do (everything it possibly can).

The Geth can control their electrical impulses. We see this in the game.

Anything else, any arguments about how it is different, isn't supported by the universe and is fantasy. Saying there is some sort of difference in electrical impulses is headcanon.

And, if you take a step out of the confines of lore, saying that Biotics are rare is an argument against Geth Biotics. Would BioWare incorporate Elves and Orcs into Mass Effect? No. Could they? Yes. Stripping Biotics of a core element of their existence is not going to happen; an idea like that is simply bad lore and story crafting. Superpowers wouldn't be superpowers if everyone had them, for example.

The Codex isn't the end-all be-all source code of Mass Effect Lore. If it were, then I'd task anyone to explain why there's no women for half the races, or why Biotics use their arms to throw Warp fields, instead of simply having it fly out of my face toward the enemy. There is undoubtedly elements in the M.E. Universe that either have to be inferred from real life, theorized, or made at a later date. Yea, BioWare could make Geth Biotics possible by adding to or changing the lore. But in my opinion, they aren't possible now. If BioWare haven't made them yet, its likely not to happen.

For your first paragraph, you can see I'm actually in a discussion with someone as to why Geth Biotics would still be rare. Possible, but also rare.

The next paragraph, the one about women, is actually an argument I've been using for Geth Biotics (Why don't we see them in the game? The same reason we didn't see Turian females for so long). The second part of that sentence, the one about gameplay, could be because they need to channel and aim the biotics a certain way. The easiest being with body movements, as you see in the game they can miss with their biotics,and they can also create biotic pulses that just eminate from their entire body.

[Lucius184]

Deucetipher wrote...

Tictactucrac:
What we know:
1. Biotics are the creation of mass-effect fields made possible by eezo nodules in a nervous system, activated by using learned behaviors that fire nerves off in specific sequences, using the body's own electricity, amplified by a biotic amps.
2. Mass effect technology in machines is common. It is used for propulsion, pushing debris and accelerating slugs and kinetic barriers.

The question posed is then simple: Can a series of small mass-effect field generators theoretically emulate a series of eezo nodules in a nervous system? Alternatively, can the same be created structurally by wires and small balls of eezo laid into a structure.

We know one answer. Barrier can be emulated.
http://masseffect.wi...22Shields.22.29

We can hypothesize many more. Throw, for example. If a spaceship can push away debris, so should a chassis.
http://masseffect.wi...ss_Effect_Field

While there is no direct statement in the codex that says Geth "adepts" are possible, there is sufficient information to extrapolate that it is likely.

The term "biotic" may not be correct in a technical sense, but as a question of function, the difference is academic.

This is exactly what I was thinking. If it were possible to emulate the biotic nodes found in a biotic using synthetic materials; it would be feasible for a synthetic with these nodes to be able to replicate abilities used by biotics. The trick is developing the tech to function the same way.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one.