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Fiona, Grand Enchanter (spoiler for Asunder and the Calling)


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#226
dragonflight288

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MisterJB wrote...

Magic, like all other advantages, will be used to raise one's position in society. Non-mages will be unable to keep up and thus, be left at the bottom of society.
Refusing to accept this does not make your viewpoint more objective. Or do you think that mages will agree to not use magic, regardless of how much benefit it could bring them, to give non-mages a fair chance?


Some will, many won't. If everyone is treated as an individual, and individual criminals are punished, and the necessary training and safeguards are made to deal with the dangers of magic, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe things will go the way you believe them to.

A single corrupt non-mage ruler can do just as much damage, if not more than a single blood mage criminal.

If I were to take upon myself your dismal view of humanity, I would also turn it against the Chantry and the templars, saying that the Chantry could very well be wrong about their interpretation of the chant of light, and are deliberately misreading it to maintain power over the mages, and keep the most powerful weapons (Cullen's view on mages, not mine) away from independent rulers. It's not a reliance of magic that keeps technology from advancing in Andrastianism, it's the Chantry. There are lore entries that suggest that even anatomy and the study of biology is considered blood magic and they kill all suspected blood mages without trial or prison.

I don't believe the Chantry as a whole does this, because it's been so long, and Sister Petrine has been called heretical because she seeks out the truth more than she seeks out affirming what the Chantry says. But using your view of humanity, the same picture you paint mages with can be used on the Chantry and the templars wholesale as organizations, and say it's inevitable that they'll slaughter mages for the heck of it, and then slaughter all the mages families who aren't mages out of paranoia.

Which kind of sounds like Meredith by Act 3, and the zealots and extremists she promoted to Knight-Lieutannents who controlled the decisions, overriding the moderates who opposed death squads and abuse of political power.

But one thing that is true, is if you give ANY group absolute power over another, that group will abuse its power and then over time, come to believe it's entitled to that power by virtue of....being them. The templars believe this of themselves when it comes to mages, Cullen makes that clear. Their actions make that clear in Kirkwall, and Lambert made it very clear when he ignored his primary duty of inspecting templars so he could be one and looked for way to keep the mages in their place and illegally tried to kill them (even Pharamond, whom he wanted to kill to hide evidence that tranquility could be cured, even if they're emotional wrecks once cured.)

And yes, I know that the Seekers need to take over for templars who don't do their duty. Lambert never waited for that. He simply let his fear of mages and his paranoia overtake him that he simply started harrassing the mages as much as possible, and then tried to slaughter them when legally, the First Enchanters had done absolutely nothing wrong in any way. Even the call for a vote to remove themselves from the Chantry was legal, done at a meeting that the Divine authorized, and then tried to take away the duty they were authorized to use, which is to investigate Rhys, away from them and force them back to their circles, when they had permssion to be there.

Lambert was simply in the wrong, and he's the one who started the war.

Of course...that was pretty much off topic from the original point, so I digress, but ultimately, the same negative view you have on mages and why they shouldn't have any political power at all can just as easily be applied to the templars and the Chantry as an argument why they can't have authority over mages, or have authority over City-States like Kirkwall. You might have templar death squads killing non-mages for crimes that don't deserve death like giving relatives a place to sleep for a night, and the relative happens to be a mage. And they might not even be allowed a trial.

Just a suspicion of course....:whistle:

#227
MisterJB

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My concern lies not on the possible corruption of mage leaders.
Magic is an advantage. And as such, many mages will use this advantage to improve their lives which is understandable, these people are not criminals and they don't deserve to be punished just for using the gifts given to them by nature. But non-mages will not be able to keep up which means that, within a few generations, non-mages will be lower class citizens unable to earn as much as mages. And that is what I do not wish to happen, I don't care in the sligthest if the mages are benevolent rulers or not.
I'm trying to be as concise as possible here.

#228
EmperorSahlertz

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dragonflight288 wrote...
A single corrupt non-mage ruler can do just as much damage, if not more than a single blood mage criminal. 

That's straight up wrong, and you know it...

#229
The Elder King

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BlueMagitek wrote...



Because Lily is a case of
rule breaking being punished.  The rule wasn't "You can't help mages",
it was "You cannot be romantically involved with mages", as Irving
points out to us.  For that, and for helping him break into the Circle
Cellar
, she was punished.

It appears that apostates are to be
brought back, otherwise Anders would have surely been killed (as he
escaped 7 times).  A blood crazy Templar (with a fate we know nothing
about) is no reason to throw out the entire system.

It was in
game, mentioned in one of the codexes when you are fighting abominations
in the Circle Tower.  I'll see if I can find the codex entry.


I probably didn't express well my point. I didn't mean that the templars punish people that aid mages in general: I meant that they punish people that aid mages in criminal activities. Lily was punished for this, and for the illegal relatioship she had with Jowan.
But this punishment isn't about a Chantry member abusing a mage. It's not the same thing. It's obvious that the templars would punish people who entered an illegal relationship with a mage or aided them in criminal activities. It's not the same for a templar that abuses a mage. I don't mean that they can always do what they want, but I'm saying that the KC has a lot of influence in deciding what a templar can do.
About Wynne's templars, I remember that they went to hunt Anoerin with the intention of kill him (if true, it means that KC decided it was right); even if it wasn't a direct rule, if there were a rule to not kill the apostate, Wynne could've denunced the templars to the KC and FE, and I get the impression from the dialogue that this isn't what happened.
And I'm not saying to throw out the entire system. I'm not either pro-mage or pro-templar, since those two factions focused on a goal: the former on the freedom and rights of the mages, tha latter on the security and safety of common folks.
My goal is to find a solution who would compromise on the rights, safety and freedom of the mages with the rights, safety and security of the common folks. In my opinion, the former Circle system isn't adeguate enough.
About the codex, don't worry, I believe you.



MisterJB wrote...

My concern lies not on the possible corruption of mage leaders.
Magic is an advantage. And as such, many mages will use this advantage to improve their lives which is understandable, these people are not criminals and they don't deserve to be punished just for using the gifts given to them by nature. But non-mages will not be able to keep up which means that, within a few generations, non-mages will be lower class citizens unable to earn as much as mages. And that is what I do not wish to happen, I don't care in the sligthest if the mages are benevolent rulers or not.
I'm trying to be as concise as possible here.


I understand your point, though I think it'd be more worth is a society that isn't as unfair and full of injustice as the Andrastian society. While the situation is different from state to state (Ferelden doesn't seem as bad as Orlais), there are already "classes" in the current Andrastian society. The lower class haven't the same rights and possibity of income of the higher classes.
I'm not saying that a system like this would work, but in the case mages are free, there might be some set rules to prevent them to overcome the common folks, both in a political and economical point of view.
It'd restrict in some way mages, but it'd be stupid for them if they believe that they could live freely without some rules to control the situation.

#230
DKJaigen

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My concern lies not on the possible corruption of mage leaders.
Magic is an advantage. And as such, many mages will use this advantage to improve their lives which is understandable, these people are not criminals and they don't deserve to be punished just for using the gifts given to them by nature. But non-mages will not be able to keep up which means that, within a few generations, non-mages will be lower class citizens unable to earn as much as mages. And that is what I do not wish to happen, I don't care in the sligthest if the mages are benevolent rulers or not.
I'm trying to be as concise as possible here.


If they are more capable rulers then so be it. In our own society the intelligent and the knowledgeable rule . What is so different when mages rule and do you believe you are not a 5th grade citizen?

Modifié par DKJaigen, 27 avril 2013 - 11:40 .


#231
AshenShug4r

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dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Magic, like all other advantages, will be used to raise one's position in society. Non-mages will be unable to keep up and thus, be left at the bottom of society.
Refusing to accept this does not make your viewpoint more objective. Or do you think that mages will agree to not use magic, regardless of how much benefit it could bring them, to give non-mages a fair chance?


Some will, many won't. If everyone is treated as an individual, and individual criminals are punished, and the necessary training and safeguards are made to deal with the dangers of magic, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe things will go the way you believe them to.


Not if mages are making the rules.

#232
dragonflight288

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AshenShug4r wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Magic, like all other advantages, will be used to raise one's position in society. Non-mages will be unable to keep up and thus, be left at the bottom of society.
Refusing to accept this does not make your viewpoint more objective. Or do you think that mages will agree to not use magic, regardless of how much benefit it could bring them, to give non-mages a fair chance?


Some will, many won't. If everyone is treated as an individual, and individual criminals are punished, and the necessary training and safeguards are made to deal with the dangers of magic, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe things will go the way you believe them to.


Not if mages are making the rules.


Did I ever say mages were the rulers? That's Tevinter. A kingdom with a king, a city-state with a viscount, the leader is usually held by biological and hereditary lines. Ferelden won't be ruled by mages unless one of Alistair's or Anora's children turn out to be a mage. Orlais is so caught up with the Chantry that mages won't ever rule there, and in Rivian we know that the mage Shamans act as more spiritual advisors than as rulers, well apart from the limited interaction with the Chantry that Rivaini's allow themselves to have.