231 réponses à ce sujet

[-TC1989-]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Of course I want to meet her, how can I kill her if I cant?

I feel you there, personally though I hope I get a chance to bash Adrian in the face. She almost made me put the book down...

[Garden of Heaven]

-TC1989- wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Of course I want to meet her, how can I kill her if I cant?

I feel you there, personally though I hope I get a chance to bash Adrian in the face. She almost made me put the book down...

Yeah, when I heard that Adrian was the one that killed Pharamond, and was thus, by extention, the reason for Wynne's death I wanted nothing but to kill her.
I hope we can do that in Dragon Age: Inquisition, because she truly deserves to die.

Modifié par Garden of Heaven, 22 avril 2013 - 08:23 .

[Silfren]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

I believe that no matter how difficult life is for mages they will always need the circle; mages simply have too much power, and if there was no one to control them then the entirety of Thedas will turn into another Tevinter Imperium.

I sympathize with the mages but no matter what, the circle is always needed.
If they had only listened to Wynne, they would have been able to achieve more freedoms without further bloodshed, yet they go ahead and kill Pharamond, proving to the templars that they do not deserve the freedoms they desire.

"They" didn't kill Pharamond.  Adrian did, on her own initiative and without any knowledge from anyone else. 

Her motives and the problems it caused notwithstanding, I think she actually did Pharamond a favor, though.  The poor guy didn't want to be made Tranquil again.  Adrian's intentions were less than noble, but I don't think she was wrong in granting him the mercy of death.

You don't know that by following Wynne they would achieved anything more than the same stalemate.

[Silfren]

leborum wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Chiramu wrote...

She makes me think she is possessed by a Pride demon or something, she is a little too eager for bloodshed :<. I think someone else should be put in charge, why is she in charge? I wouldn't have voted for her, I thought this was a democracy.

Why do you think Fiona was possessed?

Maybe that was in reference to Adrian, not Fiona?

WillPF363 wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

but wait if fiona is alistair's mom, what abt goldana?

she definitely had a mom--that seems to have been a maid--that died giving birth to alistair.

Goldanna had a mother who died giving birth possibly to Alistair- according to her, and she was a child who had just lost her mother. I've been wondering if Goldanna's mother was meant to raise Alistair along with her own baby, and young Goldanna didn't fully understand the situation.

It would be helpful if we knew where exactly Alistair got his information. Or you know, if they'd just finally give us a yes or no answer. How long has it been now?


On Topic- I would love to meet Fiona in game. It would be great to see a mage authority figure who is not intimidated by Templars.

Conspiracy theory: Goldanna's mom was pregnant and died in childbirthwith the baby who belonged to some random dude who didn't know about the pregnancy. Maric & Eamon seized the opportinity to claim the baby that Duncan and Fiona brought them was Goldanna's mother's (after all, there's no one to refute that story) keeping Alistair's true origins a secret.

Problem being that they failed miserably.  Part of the goal was to keep it secret that Maric was the father.  It was certainly NOT just about keeping Fiona secret.  So your conspiracy theory falls completely apart, since in Origins we have Goldanna making it clear that when she was a young child, she had every reason to believe the baby belonged to the King.  I don't really believe at all that she would have come by that conclusion from the King and Eamon only showing up after her mother was dead. Consider how that scene went down:  Goldanna blurts to the Warden and Alistair that "You..!  I knew it.  They told me you was dead.  They told me the babe was dead along with mother, but I knew they was lyin," followed by "Them's a the castle.  I told them the babe was the king's, and they said he was dead.  Gave me a coin to shut my mouth, and sent me on my way!"  Those are the words of a child who has seen Maric with her mother enough times to make an educated guess that he's the father of the baby.

[Garden of Heaven]

Silfren wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

I believe that no matter how difficult life is for mages they will always need the circle; mages simply have too much power, and if there was no one to control them then the entirety of Thedas will turn into another Tevinter Imperium.

I sympathize with the mages but no matter what, the circle is always needed.
If they had only listened to Wynne, they would have been able to achieve more freedoms without further bloodshed, yet they go ahead and kill Pharamond, proving to the templars that they do not deserve the freedoms they desire.

"They" didn't kill Pharamond.  Adrian did, on her own initiative and without any knowledge from anyone else. 

Her motives and the problems it caused notwithstanding, I think she actually did Pharamond a favor, though.  The poor guy didn't want to be made Tranquil again.  Adrian's intentions were less than noble, but I don't think she was wrong in granting him the mercy of death.

You don't know that by following Wynne they would achieved anything more than the same stalemate.

But isn't looking for a peaceful solution better than genocide?
the mages have doomed themselves by breaking off the circle; Even if they win the common people will not abide by the rule of another Tevinter Imperium.

[Rinshikai10]

The circle tried that at least two times before Asunder. Once during Awakening bringing forth a peaceful vote. Then again right after the events of DA2. Both where stopped by Wynne.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 22 avril 2013 - 09:45 .

[Beerfish]

Adrian and Lambert were the only consistent non knuckle heads in that novel.

[Senya]

But this time, things were moving a direction where the Circle actually had bargaining power. Instead, the moment where the Circle might get some concessions, Adrian instigates a war.

[Garden of Heaven]

almostinsane99 wrote...

But this time, things were moving a direction where the Circle actually had bargaining power. Instead, the moment where the Circle might get some concessions, Adrian instigates a war.

Exactly, it was obvious from the tone that the divine took that she was going to try and help the mages, and try to give them more freedoms, That's what Wynne was hoping for, but Adrian made sure that never happened; Adrian was utterly convinced that the only way to make things better is by instigating open war.

[Silfren]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

I believe that no matter how difficult life is for mages they will always need the circle; mages simply have too much power, and if there was no one to control them then the entirety of Thedas will turn into another Tevinter Imperium.

I sympathize with the mages but no matter what, the circle is always needed.
If they had only listened to Wynne, they would have been able to achieve more freedoms without further bloodshed, yet they go ahead and kill Pharamond, proving to the templars that they do not deserve the freedoms they desire.

"They" didn't kill Pharamond.  Adrian did, on her own initiative and without any knowledge from anyone else. 

Her motives and the problems it caused notwithstanding, I think she actually did Pharamond a favor, though.  The poor guy didn't want to be made Tranquil again.  Adrian's intentions were less than noble, but I don't think she was wrong in granting him the mercy of death.

You don't know that by following Wynne they would achieved anything more than the same stalemate.

But isn't looking for a peaceful solution better than genocide?
the mages have doomed themselves by breaking off the circle; Even if they win the common people will not abide by the rule of another Tevinter Imperium.

Looking for a peaceful solution has not worked, though.  It isn't as though mages have only JUST NOW tried to enact change. 

You're talking about "another Tevinter Imperium" as if it's what the mages were fighting for, which is blatantly untrue.  Asunder is clear that most of the mages are just bloody sick of nothing EVER being changed despite their efforts.  That doesn't mean they want to create another Tevinter.  Nor is it inevitable. 

[Garden of Heaven]

Silfren wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

I believe that no matter how difficult life is for mages they will always need the circle; mages simply have too much power, and if there was no one to control them then the entirety of Thedas will turn into another Tevinter Imperium.

I sympathize with the mages but no matter what, the circle is always needed.
If they had only listened to Wynne, they would have been able to achieve more freedoms without further bloodshed, yet they go ahead and kill Pharamond, proving to the templars that they do not deserve the freedoms they desire.

"They" didn't kill Pharamond.  Adrian did, on her own initiative and without any knowledge from anyone else. 

Her motives and the problems it caused notwithstanding, I think she actually did Pharamond a favor, though.  The poor guy didn't want to be made Tranquil again.  Adrian's intentions were less than noble, but I don't think she was wrong in granting him the mercy of death.

You don't know that by following Wynne they would achieved anything more than the same stalemate.

But isn't looking for a peaceful solution better than genocide?
the mages have doomed themselves by breaking off the circle; Even if they win the common people will not abide by the rule of another Tevinter Imperium.

Looking for a peaceful solution has not worked, though.  It isn't as though mages have only JUST NOW tried to enact change. 

You're talking about "another Tevinter Imperium" as if it's what the mages were fighting for, which is blatantly untrue.  Asunder is clear that most of the mages are just bloody sick of nothing EVER being changed despite their efforts.  That doesn't mean they want to create another Tevinter.  Nor is it inevitable. 

But mages have great power at their fingertips, and that power can corrupt, as Velanna so aptly said: "People with power never fail to abuse it, even those with good intentions".
The mages, no matter how pure their intentions will always abuse their power.
To that end I find the rise of another imperium, should the mages win the war, to be inevitable

[M Hedonist]

A Grey Warden mage who willingly subjected her to the rules of the chantry? How odd. Though I guess a life as a Grey Warden isn't that much better, so I suppose it's trading one poison for another.

[M Hedonist]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The mages, no matter how pure their intentions will always abuse their power.

Do you live in some kind of Anarchist paradise? Because I can't picture you living happily in any traditional society if you truly believe anyone with power will eventually abuse it.

[Garden of Heaven]

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The mages, no matter how pure their intentions will always abuse their power.

Do you live in some kind of Anarchist paradise? Because I can't picture you living happily in any traditional society if you truly believe anyone with power will eventually abuse it.

But aren't mages more susceptible to such things?
They have proven time and again that they will sacrifice innocent lives to reach their agenda, Anders blew up the chantry, thrusting all mages, even ones that did not want to fight, into the fray, and killing many in the chantry including the grand cleric.
Adrian killed pharamond, thus repeating what Anders did before her, she unjustly forced everyone, even those who were looking for compromise, to fight a war that they were trying their best to stop, and killing many in the process, like first enchanter Edmonde, and Wynne.

[M Hedonist]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The mages, no matter how pure their intentions will always abuse their power.

Do you live in some kind of Anarchist paradise? Because I can't picture you living happily in any traditional society if you truly believe anyone with power will eventually abuse it.

But aren't mages more susceptible to such things?
They have proven time and again that they will sacrifice innocent lives to reach their agenda, Anders blew up the chantry, thrusting all mages, even ones that did not want to fight, into the fray, and killing many in the chantry including the grand cleric.
Adrian killed pharamond, thus repeating what Anders did before her, she unjustly forced everyone, even those who were looking for compromise, to fight a war that they were trying their best to stop, and killing many in the process, like first enchanter Edmonde, and Wynne.

Loghain caused nearly all of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden to fall and almost got Ferelden destroyed as a result.
Howe betrays his close friend and attempts to wipe out his entire family.
Meredith just goes insane and turns into a stupid video game endboss because she's gotten into contact with Red Lyrium.
They should just put everyone into towers.

[Silfren]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The mages, no matter how pure their intentions will always abuse their power.

Do you live in some kind of Anarchist paradise? Because I can't picture you living happily in any traditional society if you truly believe anyone with power will eventually abuse it.

But aren't mages more susceptible to such things?
They have proven time and again that they will sacrifice innocent lives to reach their agenda, Anders blew up the chantry, thrusting all mages, even ones that did not want to fight, into the fray, and killing many in the chantry including the grand cleric.
Adrian killed pharamond, thus repeating what Anders did before her, she unjustly forced everyone, even those who were looking for compromise, to fight a war that they were trying their best to stop, and killing many in the process, like first enchanter Edmonde, and Wynne.

ALL mages haven't proven anything.  The mages we've met have USUALLY been forced into desperate situations.  You can't push a person against a wall and force them to fight for their lives and then complain when they do just that.

[Garden of Heaven]

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The mages, no matter how pure their intentions will always abuse their power.

Do you live in some kind of Anarchist paradise? Because I can't picture you living happily in any traditional society if you truly believe anyone with power will eventually abuse it.

But aren't mages more susceptible to such things?
They have proven time and again that they will sacrifice innocent lives to reach their agenda, Anders blew up the chantry, thrusting all mages, even ones that did not want to fight, into the fray, and killing many in the chantry including the grand cleric.
Adrian killed pharamond, thus repeating what Anders did before her, she unjustly forced everyone, even those who were looking for compromise, to fight a war that they were trying their best to stop, and killing many in the process, like first enchanter Edmonde, and Wynne.

Loghain caused nearly all of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden to fall and almost got Ferelden destroyed as a result.
Howe betrays his close friend and attempts to wipe out his entire family.
Meredith just goes insane and turns into a stupid video game endboss because she's gotten into contact with Red Lyrium.
They should just put everyone into towers.

While what you said is true, these people cannot cause nearly as much damage as mages can.
Darkspawn were the creation of mages, and they remain a threat to this day, with the first blight nearly causing the extinction of the races of Thedas had becoming a Grey Warden never been discovered.
Who knows what else that the haughtiness of mages might bring?
The templars need to grant mages more freedoms, but the circle is an absolute necessity, mages must be protected not just from others, but from themselves as well.
Let us also not forget that Meredith did what the common people would have done, even if she had not called for the Right of Annulment, the common people would have rioted and demanded blood. She was trying to contain the situation as best she could.

[Garden of Heaven]

Silfren wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The mages, no matter how pure their intentions will always abuse their power.

Do you live in some kind of Anarchist paradise? Because I can't picture you living happily in any traditional society if you truly believe anyone with power will eventually abuse it.

But aren't mages more susceptible to such things?
They have proven time and again that they will sacrifice innocent lives to reach their agenda, Anders blew up the chantry, thrusting all mages, even ones that did not want to fight, into the fray, and killing many in the chantry including the grand cleric.
Adrian killed pharamond, thus repeating what Anders did before her, she unjustly forced everyone, even those who were looking for compromise, to fight a war that they were trying their best to stop, and killing many in the process, like first enchanter Edmonde, and Wynne.

ALL mages haven't proven anything.  The mages we've met have USUALLY been forced into desperate situations.  You can't push a person against a wall and force them to fight for their lives and then complain when they do just that.

The templars have backed the mages against a wall because the mages have given them no reason to trust them.
Hawke meets many blood mages in Kirkwall who seek to usurp the templars. What are the templars supposed to do? Let them?
The escaped blood mages from Starhaven's circle ask Hawke to kill the templars so that they can escape. And later kidnap Hawke's sibling/lover. Refusing to let them go, and killing Ser Thrask, who was only looking for a peaceful resolution.
And one of the things that cannot be forgiven and that prove what I say is true is Quentin's research, which was condoned by Orsino, and which led to Leandra's death.

Modifié par Garden of Heaven, 22 avril 2013 - 10:50 .

[M Hedonist]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The mages, no matter how pure their intentions will always abuse their power.

Do you live in some kind of Anarchist paradise? Because I can't picture you living happily in any traditional society if you truly believe anyone with power will eventually abuse it.

But aren't mages more susceptible to such things?
They have proven time and again that they will sacrifice innocent lives to reach their agenda, Anders blew up the chantry, thrusting all mages, even ones that did not want to fight, into the fray, and killing many in the chantry including the grand cleric.
Adrian killed pharamond, thus repeating what Anders did before her, she unjustly forced everyone, even those who were looking for compromise, to fight a war that they were trying their best to stop, and killing many in the process, like first enchanter Edmonde, and Wynne.

Loghain caused nearly all of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden to fall and almost got Ferelden destroyed as a result.
Howe betrays his close friend and attempts to wipe out his entire family.
Meredith just goes insane and turns into a stupid video game endboss because she's gotten into contact with Red Lyrium.
They should just put everyone into towers.

While what you said is true, these people cannot cause nearly as much damage as mages can.
Darkspawn were the creation of mages, and they remain a threat to this day, with the first blight nearly causing the extinction of the races of Thedas had becoming a Grey Warden never been discovered.
Who knows what else that the haughtiness of mages might bring?
The templars need to grant mages more freedoms, but the circle is an absolute necessity, mages must be protected not just from others, but from themselves as well.
Let us also not forget that Meredith did what the common people would have done, even if she had not called for the Right of Annulment, the common people would have rioted and demanded blood. She was trying to contain the situation as best she could.

I'm pretty sure "almost getting a country destroyed" is as bad as it can get.
I suppose "creating evil" is even worse, but how often does that happen? You're going to punish people for something some completely unrelated people did centuries ago?

Modifié par Sauruz, 22 avril 2013 - 10:51 .

[Garden of Heaven]

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The mages, no matter how pure their intentions will always abuse their power.

Do you live in some kind of Anarchist paradise? Because I can't picture you living happily in any traditional society if you truly believe anyone with power will eventually abuse it.

But aren't mages more susceptible to such things?
They have proven time and again that they will sacrifice innocent lives to reach their agenda, Anders blew up the chantry, thrusting all mages, even ones that did not want to fight, into the fray, and killing many in the chantry including the grand cleric.
Adrian killed pharamond, thus repeating what Anders did before her, she unjustly forced everyone, even those who were looking for compromise, to fight a war that they were trying their best to stop, and killing many in the process, like first enchanter Edmonde, and Wynne.

Loghain caused nearly all of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden to fall and almost got Ferelden destroyed as a result.
Howe betrays his close friend and attempts to wipe out his entire family.
Meredith just goes insane and turns into a stupid video game endboss because she's gotten into contact with Red Lyrium.
They should just put everyone into towers.

While what you said is true, these people cannot cause nearly as much damage as mages can.
Darkspawn were the creation of mages, and they remain a threat to this day, with the first blight nearly causing the extinction of the races of Thedas had becoming a Grey Warden never been discovered.
Who knows what else that the haughtiness of mages might bring?
The templars need to grant mages more freedoms, but the circle is an absolute necessity, mages must be protected not just from others, but from themselves as well.
Let us also not forget that Meredith did what the common people would have done, even if she had not called for the Right of Annulment, the common people would have rioted and demanded blood. She was trying to contain the situation as best she could.

I'm pretty sure "almost getting a country destroyed" is as bad as it can get.
I suppose "creating evil" is even worse, but how does that happen? You're going to punish people for something some completely unrelated people did centuries ago?

The templars are not punishing them, they are simply guarding them and watching to make sure that what they did before does not happen again in any shape or form.
If the mages had been a little more cooperative, coexistence with the templars in peace might have been possible.
But they insist on freedom, complete freedom which they can never have.

Modifié par Garden of Heaven, 22 avril 2013 - 10:52 .

[M Hedonist]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The templars are not punishing them, they are simply guarding them and watching to make sure that what they did before does not happen again in any shape or form.
If the mages had been a little more cooperative, coexistence with the templars in peace might have been possible.
But they insist on freedom, complete freedom which they can never have.

Yes. How dare they insist not to be ruled by zealots who are poorly kept in check as we have seen plenty of opoortunities in DA2 where templars would abuse their power to do terrible things. I bet some of the more rebellious ones would even object to be turned into human robots. Who do they think they are, people entitled to basic human rights?
Let's stop this argument now that we have obviously come to a conclusion.

[Garden of Heaven]

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The templars are not punishing them, they are simply guarding them and watching to make sure that what they did before does not happen again in any shape or form.
If the mages had been a little more cooperative, coexistence with the templars in peace might have been possible.
But they insist on freedom, complete freedom which they can never have.

Yes. How dare they insist not to be ruled by zealots who are poorly kept in check as we have seen plenty of opoortunities in DA2 where templars would abuse their power to do terrible things. I bet some of the more rebellious ones would even object to be turned into human robots. Who do they think they are, people entitled to basic human rights?
Let's stop this argument now that we have obviously come to a conclusion.

Forgive me, as I was not trying to offend.
The templars are not perfect, far from it, but I believe that they are needed.

[archangel1996]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The templars are not punishing them, they are simply guarding them and watching to make sure that what they did before does not happen again in any shape or form.
If the mages had been a little more cooperative, coexistence with the templars in peace might have been possible.
But they insist on freedom, complete freedom which they can never have.

Yes. How dare they insist not to be ruled by zealots who are poorly kept in check as we have seen plenty of opoortunities in DA2 where templars would abuse their power to do terrible things. I bet some of the more rebellious ones would even object to be turned into human robots. Who do they think they are, people entitled to basic human rights?
Let's stop this argument now that we have obviously come to a conclusion.

Forgive me, as I was not trying to offend.
The templars are not perfect, far from it, but I believe that they are needed.

The CIRCLE is needed
Magic is a very powerfull, very dangerous, diamond that needs to be shaped
So yes, the mages need to learn how to use their powers, but they don't need to be taken from their families or abused by the templars(look at the bald guy in DA2, it's very obvious that with "you will do everything i want" he doesn't mean to play cards with the girl)
The circle should be merely a school for the ones who have a family who care about them and they should be allowed to go home every now and than(Hawke) , and most importantly a house for the ones like Wynne
If you want the templars fine, but they shouldn't be like Meredith or the bald guy (tyrants), they should be saviors(templar who saved Wynne) in same case, partners in others (Greagoir-Irving)

[-TC1989-]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The templars are not punishing them, they are simply guarding them and watching to make sure that what they did before does not happen again in any shape or form.
If the mages had been a little more cooperative, coexistence with the templars in peace might have been possible.
But they insist on freedom, complete freedom which they can never have.

Yes. How dare they insist not to be ruled by zealots who are poorly kept in check as we have seen plenty of opoortunities in DA2 where templars would abuse their power to do terrible things. I bet some of the more rebellious ones would even object to be turned into human robots. Who do they think they are, people entitled to basic human rights?
Let's stop this argument now that we have obviously come to a conclusion.

Forgive me, as I was not trying to offend.
The templars are not perfect, far from it, but I believe that they are needed.

I agree they are. And of course like anything, there will be bad seeds, but they are needed. Usually I'm pretty split down the middle, but I am more inclined to stop a bad mage than a bad Templar. A crazy Templar can only do so much damage, and are easier to deal with. A mage is a lot more scary, if one was to go crazy, could tear down an entire city. I definitely don't agree that everything a Templar does is right, nor justified. But they are necessary.

So far it seems when a mage has freedom, they tend to abuse it. I'm not saying that they're beyond hope of one day living among other people, but I haven't seen enough stability to really consider granting that. The Templars do need to lay off, and make the Circle maybe less of a prison, and more of a school. I have no idea how you would rebuild the Circle system, but something needs to change. I'm not a mage hater, but I'm definitely not a sympathizer for them. I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but when you know from history, that the only time a certain people have been freed and allowed to live normally, was one of the most difficult times in recorded history... you don't approach it lightly.

[LobselVith8]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Silfren wrote...

"They" didn't kill Pharamond.  Adrian did, on her own initiative and without any knowledge from anyone else. 

Her motives and the problems it caused notwithstanding, I think she actually did Pharamond a favor, though.  The poor guy didn't want to be made Tranquil again.  Adrian's intentions were less than noble, but I don't think she was wrong in granting him the mercy of death.

You don't know that by following Wynne they would achieved anything more than the same stalemate. 

But isn't looking for a peaceful solution better than genocide?

I think one could say that freedom is better than slavery, even if the mages have to fight to maintain it.

Garden of Heaven wrote...

the mages have doomed themselves by breaking off the circle; Even if they win the common people will not abide by the rule of another Tevinter Imperium. 

Another Tevinter? I recall societies with free mages that don't emulate Tevinter: the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, the Chasind Wilders, and the kingdom of Rivain, so I don't see why you're suggesting that mage autonomy would automatically lead to another Tevinter.