231 réponses à ce sujet

[Todd23]

If Fiona's in the game... can we have the option to give Alistair another half sibling?

[LobselVith8]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Looking for a peaceful solution has not worked, though.  It isn't as though mages have only JUST NOW tried to enact change. 

You're talking about "another Tevinter Imperium" as if it's what the mages were fighting for, which is blatantly untrue.  Asunder is clear that most of the mages are just bloody sick of nothing EVER being changed despite their efforts.  That doesn't mean they want to create another Tevinter.  Nor is it inevitable. 

But mages have great power at their fingertips, and that power can corrupt, as Velanna so aptly said: "People with power never fail to abuse it, even those with good intentions".

Anyone can abuse power; you don't need to be a mage to do that. Vaughan abused his power as a noble to kidnap and rape women from the Alienage. The Chantry of Andraste has abused it's authority as a religious organization to support Orlesian expansionism in the name of the Maker. Some templars have abused, raped, tortured, made illegally tranquil, and murdered mages in the Chantry controlled Circle.

And we saw Meredith condemn hundreds of men, women, and children to death for an act they weren't responsible for because she of her religious authority as Knight-Commander.

Garden of Heaven wrote...

The mages, no matter how pure their intentions will always abuse their power.
To that end I find the rise of another imperium, should the mages win the war, to be inevitable 

Except for all the times in history where free mages didn't create another Tevinter, of course. And we have the Mages Collective as an organization of free mages dedicated to improving the perception of mages, saving apostates from templars, and keeping people safe.

[Dave of Canada]

Listing groups of people who support mages is nice and all but you're ignoring how almost every single one of those civilizations could never be applied over Thedas as a whole and dismisses the fact that most of them are ruled by mages. In addition, none of them are applied under a monarchy.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 avril 2013 - 12:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Listing groups of people who support mages is nice and all but you're ignoring how almost every single one of those civilizations could never be applied over Thedas as a whole and dismisses the fact that most of them are ruled by mages.

It can't be applied to the Andrastian nations when they vilify mages, of course, but the point is there are societies with free mages that don't emulate Tevinter. That's my point. The idea that free mages will automatically emulate another Tevinter is something I strongly disagree with, because history disproves it over and over again when we see other societies that don't have the same vilification of mages that the Andrastian nations hold.

Furthermore, there is no democracy in Thedas. There are nobles ruling over their respective kingdoms in the Andrastian nations. And having mages in positions of leadership doesn't equate to emulating the Imperium; the Dalish clans couldn't be more dissimilar to the Tevinter Imperium, for example.

[Dave of Canada]

But it isn't a matter of Andrastian nations vilifying mages, it's a matter that each of those civilizations are on a much smaller scale or just tolerate the problem without working on a solution.

Rivain could never be applied because not everyone is going to be happy with the idea of seeing mages as a force of nature. Hell, Rivain is divided on the issue too.

Dalish could never be applied because Dalish restrict how many mages can be in one clan and they're divided across the continent. Let's not forget either that their magic is entirely unregulated. Mostly the same with the Chasind and Avvars, too.

The only mage society we've seen that isn't in small of scope is Tevinter, they're intelligent and still regulate their mages by taking them away from their parents and giving them an education, the condemned "evils" of the Templar. Don't bother mentioning "genocide", "rape" and whatever because we know that's not legal in the Circles.

"Free" mages anywhere else would simply result in two potential situations:
1. The mundanes rebel against the mages in an attempt to recreate the Circles or slaughter them all.
2. The monarchy enslaves all the mages in an attempt to use them in their war effort, creating a monarch-owned Circle with wars across Thedas being won by whomever has the most mages.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 avril 2013 - 01:14 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote....

Dalish could never be applied because Dalish restrict how many mages can be in one clan and they're divided across the continent. Let's not forget either that their magic is entirely unregulated. Mostly the same with the Chasind and Avvars, too.

The Dalish are the remanants of the kingdom of the Dales. Also, we've seen more than two mages in a clan. Merrill notes their measures (hiding mages and being nomadic) is to protect the Dalish from the Chantry and the templars who hunt them down.

Dave of Canada wrote....

The only mage society we've seen that isn't in small of scope is Tevinter, they're intelligent and still regulate their mages by taking them away from their parents and giving them an education, the condemned "evils" of the Templar. Don't bother mentioning "genocide", "rape" and whatever because we know that's not legal in the Circles.

The Dales wasn't another Tevinter, and as Lanaya points out, many Keepers are descended from the nobility who ruled the Dales. Merrill notes that magic isn't shunned by the Dalish like it is in Andrastian society, and how the concept of the Circle is strange since the elves accept magic.

Dave of Canada wrote....

"Free" mages anywhere else would simply result in two potential situations:
1. The mundanes rebel against the mages in an attempt to recreate the Circles or slaughter them all.
2. The monarchy enslaves all the mages in an attempt to use them in their war effort, creating a monarch-owned Circle with wars across Thedas being won by whomever has the most mages.

I don't subscribe to your two scenarios, and Asunder mentioned that Empress Celene might have used the Circle of Magi before the mages emancipated themselves.

[Silfren]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Let us also not forget that Meredith did what the common people would have done, even if she had not called for the Right of Annulment, the common people would have rioted and demanded blood. She was trying to contain the situation as best she could.

Oh please, THIS argument again?

Meredith only says that the people will demand blood because she's trying to rationalize the slaughter of hundreds of innocent people.  She was so damned eager to kill the Circle mages she was practically slavering at the mouth over the very idea.

We don't know that the people would have rioted in response to the Circle mages not being executed.  But you know what?  You don't respond to the demands of a mob by giving them the murders they ask for.  I mean seriously, do you realize what you just said? 

[Garden of Heaven]

Silfren wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Let us also not forget that Meredith did what the common people would have done, even if she had not called for the Right of Annulment, the common people would have rioted and demanded blood. She was trying to contain the situation as best she could.

Oh please, THIS argument again?

Meredith only says that the people will demand blood because she's trying to rationalize the slaughter of hundreds of innocent people.  She was so damned eager to kill the Circle mages she was practically slavering at the mouth over the very idea.

We don't know that the people would have rioted in response to the Circle mages not being executed.  But you know what?  You don't respond to the demands of a mob by giving them the murders they ask for.  I mean seriously, do you realize what you just said?
 
The grand cleric, a woman that people loved has been murdered by a Mage, since almost all the citizenry of Kirkwall abides by chantry rules , then they will not simply let this go awa.

Modifié par Garden of Heaven, 23 avril 2013 - 03:35 .

[Silfren]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Let us also not forget that Meredith did what the common people would have done, even if she had not called for the Right of Annulment, the common people would have rioted and demanded blood. She was trying to contain the situation as best she could.

Oh please, THIS argument again?

Meredith only says that the people will demand blood because she's trying to rationalize the slaughter of hundreds of innocent people.  She was so damned eager to kill the Circle mages she was practically slavering at the mouth over the very idea.

We don't know that the people would have rioted in response to the Circle mages not being executed.  But you know what?  You don't respond to the demands of a mob by giving them the murders they ask for.  I mean seriously, do you realize what you just said?

 
The grand cleric, a woman that people loved has been murdered by a Mage, since almost all the citizenry of Kirkwall abides by chantry rules , then they will not simply let this go awa.

And the man who killed her was standing right there.  It's fallacious to assume that the people would not have been satisfied with his execution.  But my point stands:  You do NOT kill hundreds of innocent people on the argument that a riot will form if you don't.

Have you even thought about this, or are you just literally taking Meredith at her word as you seem to be doing here?  You've effectively rationalized that because the people MIGHT riot, that it is necessary to pre-emptively kill a few hundred people not involved with Anders' plot.  You don't think it makes a bit more sense--and certainly is more just--to use the local guards and templars to keep order?  That is, after all, what the templars are officially supposed to do: protect mages as well as guard against them.  Protecting innocent mages from taking blame by an angry mob for a crime they didn't commit--which at this point is still just hypothetical--is precisely part of the templars' job description.  But you're actually saying that the templars would be obligated to kill the mages in order to pre-emptively slake this mob's bloodthirst.

Nice.

Modifié par Silfren, 23 avril 2013 - 03:50 .

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

And the man who killed her was standing right there.  It's fallacious to assume that the people would not have been satisfied with his execution.  But my point stands:  You do NOT kill hundreds of innocent people on the argument that a riot will form if you don't.

Not really. In Asunder an entire tavern was willing to kill three mages who had nothing to do with assassination attempt on the Divine. They blamed magic ang mages in general describing it and wielders as a curse that should be burned out of this world.

Plus they're not all innocent. Many of them could be blood mages.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 avril 2013 - 03:50 .

[MisterJB]

So, is this where the current non-mages vs mages debates is happening? You guys started without me.
Oh well, time to repeat the same arguments.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Anyone can abuse power; you don't need to be a mage to do that. Vaughan abused his power as a noble to kidnap and rape women from the Alienage. The Chantry of Andraste has abused it's authority as a religious organization to support Orlesian expansionism in the name of the Maker. Some templars have abused, raped, tortured, made illegally tranquil, and murdered mages in the Chantry controlled Circle.

And we saw Meredith condemn hundreds of men, women, and children to death for an act they weren't responsible for because she of her religious authority as Knight-Commander.

it's true that anyone can abuse power but the difference here is how easily that power comes to them.
Meredith had several special conditions that enabled her to have that much power such as the Templars being the largest armed force in a city that was constantly under magical attack which made the people turn towards her for assistance. Vaughan also had several cohorts assisting him in his crimes. Take this away and they are one person that can be easily dealt with.

Connor is a kid who, by himself, destroys an entire village. It's just not the same thing and it will never be the same thing.

Except for all the times in history where free mages didn't create another Tevinter, of course. And we have the Mages Collective as an organization of free mages dedicated to improving the perception of mages, saving apostates from templars, and keeping people safe.

There are no such times. We are never told that Ferelden's primitive tribes have free mages; in fact, Mark of the Assassin hints that they break their mages into complying slaves.
The Dalish are a magocracy like Tevinter even if not as brutal.
Rivain is a land of contrasts. We hear talk of seers, of Abominations and also of Qunari so, to say that mages are living peacefully as equals in Rivain is probrably an enormous stretch.

The Mage Collective that asks us to procure books on how to control demons (it's for a friend, I swear!) and to kill people delivering "false" testimony (the group with the mage couldn't distinguish my magic from blood magic, I swear!)? They are not trustworthy. The only reason they keep a low profile it's because the templars exist.

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

And the man who killed her was standing right there.  It's fallacious to assume that the people would not have been satisfied with his execution.  But my point stands:  You do NOT kill hundreds of innocent people on the argument that a riot will form if you don't.

Not really. In Asunder an entire tavern was willing to kill three mages who had nothing to do with assassination attempt on the Divine. They blamed magic ang mages in general describing it and wielders as a curse that should be burned out of this world.

Plus they're not all innocent. Many of them could be blood mages.

Eh, I'm not going to use drunk tavern-goers to assess how all people everywhere will react.

We don't know whether, if any, Circle mages were blood mages.  I don't accept the idea that all those mages have to be killed because there might be blood mages among them.  I do note that when Meredith decided to annul the Circle, she dropped the question of blood magic and just went full-on with the whole "Anders killed the Grand Cleric, I have to annul the Circle now."  Suddenly the question rooting out blood mages was a lot less important than just having an excuse to kill the mages outright.

Nevertheless, it is fallacious.  Justice isn't achieved by pre-guessing what an alleged mob may think and slaughtering hundreds of people because you THINK said mob may scream for their blood.  If you think a mob may form, you prepared to deal with the mob...you certainly DON'T give in to mob justice.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...
So, is this where the current non-mages vs mages debates is happening? You guys started without me.

Not our fault you're running late.  Pull up a chair, grab a beer.  There's a great lichen ale on the tap.

Modifié par Silfren, 23 avril 2013 - 04:13 .

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Silfren wrote...

And the man who killed her was standing right there.  It's fallacious to assume that the people would not have been satisfied with his execution.  But my point stands:  You do NOT kill hundreds of innocent people on the argument that a riot will form if you don't.

Not really. In Asunder an entire tavern was willing to kill three mages who had nothing to do with assassination attempt on the Divine. They blamed magic ang mages in general describing it and wielders as a curse that should be burned out of this world.

Plus they're not all innocent. Many of them could be blood mages. 

The hundreds of men, women, and children who Meredith condemned to die by a sword of mercy were all innocent of Anders' actions.

[WillPF363]

I'd also love to see Fiona drop another "F**k the Divine!" line. Who's she cursing out? Could be Lambert, Empress Celene, I just hope it's a character who is easy to hate.

[Stella-Arc]

F**K Fiona!

Yup. That's my stance on her. Urg...but Adrian takes the mantle of being my most hated character of the franchise. She is almost side by side with Anders.

[-TC1989-]

Stella-Arc wrote...

F**K Fiona!

Yup. That's my stance on her. Urg...but Adrian takes the mantle of being my most hated character of the franchise. She is almost side by side with Anders.

Damn, you completely read my mind. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Modifié par -TC1989-, 23 avril 2013 - 05:15 .

[Dave of Canada]

Silfren wrote...

We don't know whether, if any, Circle mages were blood mages.

It's harder to prove there's innocent mages in Kirkwall than there is corrupt.

I don't accept the idea that all those mages have to be killed because there might be blood mages among them.

I don't accept the opposite as well.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

So, is this where the current non-mages vs mages debates is happening? You guys started without me.
Oh well, time to repeat the same arguments.

More like pro-templar versus pro-mage.

As for Fiona, I hope she refuses to compromise with the Divine and Lambert's faction; the mages shouldn't bend knee anymore to the Chantry or the templars.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anyone can abuse power; you don't need to be a mage to do that. Vaughan abused his power as a noble to kidnap and rape women from the Alienage. The Chantry of Andraste has abused it's authority as a religious organization to support Orlesian expansionism in the name of the Maker. Some templars have abused, raped, tortured, made illegally tranquil, and murdered mages in the Chantry controlled Circle.

And we saw Meredith condemn hundreds of men, women, and children to death for an act they weren't responsible for because she of her religious authority as Knight-Commander.

it's true that anyone can abuse power but the difference here is how easily that power comes to them.

Meredith had several special conditions that enabled her to have that much power such as the Templars being the largest armed force in a city that was constantly under magical attack which made the people turn towards her for assistance. Vaughan also had several cohorts assisting him in his crimes. Take this away and they are one person that can be easily dealt with.

She was a high ranking templar with authority over mages. She had the power to commit murder hundreds with her word. She's the example that shows how far the Chantry controlled Circles can go when you allow an anti-mage, genocidal lunatic have command over armed and armored soldiers who have dominion over mages by divine right.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except for all the times in history where free mages didn't create another Tevinter, of course. And we have the Mages Collective as an organization of free mages dedicated to improving the perception of mages, saving apostates from templars, and keeping people safe. 

There are no such times. We are never told that Ferelden's primitive tribes have free mages; in fact, Mark of the Assassin hints that they break their mages into complying slaves.

The Avvar and the Chasind revere magic and Flemeth, and are governed by their shamans. And Gaider noted they were people in societies who didn't control their mages, and were some of the societies who saw abominations as natural disasters.

MisterJB wrote...

The Dalish are a magocracy like Tevinter even if not as brutal.
Rivain is a land of contrasts. We hear talk of seers, of Abominations and also of Qunari so, to say that mages are living peacefully as equals in Rivain is probrably an enormous stretch.

Having a mage in a position of leadership isn't sufficient to compare it to Tevinter when there such a stark contrast between Keepers and Magisters. And you're missing the point - Rivain is another example that free mages don't automatically mean another Tevinter.

MisterJB wrote...

The Mage Collective that asks us to procure books on how to control demons (it's for a friend, I swear!) and to kill people delivering "false" testimony (the group with the mage couldn't distinguish my magic from blood magic, I swear!)? They are not trustworthy. The only reason they keep a low profile it's because the templars exist. 

The Warden does plenty of good with the Collective, including dispatching dangerous mages who pose a threat to people, and eliminating an abomination.

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

Eh, I'm not going to use drunk tavern-goers to assess how all people everywhere will react.

The pubic doesn't like mages. Evangeline refuses to enter other towns because she knows the reaction will basically be the same. Mages are considered monstrous and a disgrace.

Mary Kirby wrote...

Well, not to mention that most families don't want to be associated with their mage children. They're monstrous, and it's a disgrace to have one. The ones like Arlessa Isolde who don't turn them over at the first opportunity are rare.

Magic killed Kirkwall's beloved Grand Cleric. A town thrown in turmoil over recurring and high profile uses of magic-- blood magic in particular-- and its legitimatly suspected many of the Circle mages are blood mages discontent with the Circle and Chantry-- they aren't letting it go, I don't see that happening.

We don't know whether, if any, Circle mages were blood mages.

Yes we do. Meredith's suspicions were legitimate. Enemies Among Us, Best Served Cold, On the Loose, The Last Holdouts, and All That Remains provide evidence she was not simply imagining blood magic-- that she was not paranoid.

I don't accept the idea that all those mages have to be killed because there might be blood mages among them.

That's fine but its an opinion I don't share. Something must be done and the Templars have a ruthless, thankless responsibility to attend.

I do note that when Meredith decided to annul the Circle, she dropped the question of blood magic and just went full-on with the whole "Anders killed the Grand Cleric, I have to annul the Circle now."  Suddenly the question rooting out blood mages was a lot less important than just having an excuse to kill the mages outright.

No she didn't. She says she could not stay her hand even if she wanted to-- which she doesn't because the Circle is lost to blood magic-- its an extra. She'd had already called for the RoA long before The Last Straw.

Nevertheless, it is fallacious. Justice isn't achieved by pre-guessing what an alleged mob may think and slaughtering hundreds of people because you THINK said mob may scream for their blood.  If you think a mob may form, you prepared to deal with the mob...you certainly DON'T give in to mob justice.

I strongly believe there would have been a riot. After MLK's assassination there were a bunch across the country and the situation is similar-- The assassination of a highly respected and adored religious figure. A moderate in a land of extreme viewpoints. The minority defender. An advocate of non-violent solutions. The rock of the community.

And look at the situation from Meredith's view. You cannot turn on a city that is new to Templar rule. You have to appease the sizable population riot against the mages and revolt against you should you do otherwise.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 avril 2013 - 06:02 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
More like pro-templar versus pro-mage.

This has always been about non-mages vs mages and it will always be. Some of are more and less accepting of each other but mages enslaved non-mages long ebfore there were Templars.

As for Fiona, I hope she refuses to compromise with the Divine and Lambert's faction; the mages shouldn't bend knee anymore to the Chantry or the templars.

There is a difference between compromising and submission, you know?

LobselVith8 wrote...
She was a high ranking templar with authority over mages. She had the power to commit murder hundreds with her word. She's the example that shows how far the Chantry controlled Circles can go when you allow an anti-mage, genocidal lunatic have command over armed and armored soldiers who have dominion over mages by divine right.

You know, I can actually agree that there needs to be a more equalitarian relationship between mages and templars like it existed in Ferelden but none of that changes the fact that this relationship needs to exist because mages simply are much more dangerous than any non-mage.
Connor caused far more suffering in Redcliff than Vaughan did in Denerim and all he had to use was magic whereas Vaughan needed money, soldiers and for his daddy and Cailan and the Grand Cleric to be away.
You said that anyone can abuse their power and that's a fact. But it's also a fact that power comes much more easily to mages than it does to non-mages.

The Avvar and the Chasind revere magic and Flemeth, and are governed by their shamans. And Gaider noted they were people in societies who didn't control their mages, and were some of the societies who saw abominations as natural disasters.

The Chansind fear Flemeth, they terrify their children with tales of her. And those shamans don't need to be mages. We had shamans and druids and magic never existed in our world.

Abominations are not natural disasters. They are the conscious acts of men and women who need to be held accountable for their actions and measures must be taken to prevent it from happening again. Treating abominations as natural disasters is not a mentality that should be encouraged.

Having a mage in a position of leadership isn't sufficient to compare it to Tevinter when there such a stark contrast between Keepers and Magisters.

It is if the supreme position of leadership is availabe to mages only. Sure, most Keepers are not like the Magisters but that doesn't change the fact the Dalish are not an example of a society where mages and non-mages are equals.

And you're missing the point - Rivain is another example that free mages don't automatically mean another Tevinter.

Rivain is not an example because we don't know just how free mages are nor how they society works.

The Warden does plenty of good with the Collective, including dispatching dangerous mages who pose a threat to people, and eliminating an abomination.

The dangerous mages who pose a threat to the people are the mages of the colective.
You can't honestly believe that a mage couldn't distinguish between blood magic and regular magic. Or that asking for a book on how to control demons or warning mage who are; supposedly; not blood magic with blood is not suspicious.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 avril 2013 - 05:21 .

[Garden of Heaven]

Let us not forget that the veil in Kirkwall was weaker than the rest of the Free Marches, which could have explained why blood mages were abundant there.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
More like pro-templar versus pro-mage.

This has always been about non-mages vs mages and it will always be. Some of are more and less accepting of each other but mages enslaved non-mages long ebfore there were Templars.

No, actually, it was as he said, pro-templars versus pro-mages.  You may think it's about whether to be pro-mage or pro-non-mage, but don't go projecting it onto the rest of us.

[Silfren]

Youth4Ever wrote...

And look at the situation from Meredith's view. You cannot turn on a city that is new to Templar rule. You have to appease the sizable population riot against the mages and revolt against you should you do otherwise.

Shyeah, no. 

The city was not at all new to Templar rule.  As soon as Hawke lands in Kirkwall we're informed that Meredith is the power there. 

Meredith has shown from day one she's happy to do her own thing, the will of the people be damned, and she has the largest standing army of Templars in the region.  I don't buy that she was forced to abide by the will of, again, a hypothetical mob.  And I repeat that this is not how the rule of law works.  The whole point of a legal system is that we do NOT devolve into the rule of the mob, of vigilante justice.

[Silfren]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Let us not forget that the veil in Kirkwall was weaker than the rest of the Free Marches, which could have explained why blood mages were abundant there.

The only issue here is that the Veil is weak ANYWHERE that a Circle is in place.  This is per Gaider, and no, I don't have the link handy.  But I remember him saying in a post that the Veil naturally thins anywhere that magic is practiced regularly, and that this means any place a Circle is built, the Veil will weaken, even if it was strong to begin with. 

So there has to be something else going on.  I'm not saying that the ultra thin Veil isn't part of the problem, but it can't be the only one.