231 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

Shyeah, no.  The city was not at all new to Templar rule.  As soon as Hawke lands in Kirkwall we're informed that Meredith is the power there.

Only to a degree, and only behing the scenes in a sort of backroom bargain. She was not the outfrontman and she cannot steer Kirwall in a direction most beneficial for the Templars without ruling it herself. The Order will of course get some benefit from twisitng Dumar's arm but its not on the same level as ruling the city yourself.

Meredith has shown from day one she's happy to do her own thing, the will of the people be damned, and she has the largest standing army of Templars in the region.  I don't buy that she was forced to abide by the will of, again, a hypothetical mob.  And I repeat that this is not how the rule of law works.  The whole point of a legal system is that we do NOT devolve into the rule of the mob, of vigilante justice.

You don't kill the people, put down a whole city and get away with it. That doesn't work for what the Templars stand for, it jeapordizes the future of the Order in Kirkwall, and you certainly don't do it when you're trying to prove to everyone Templar rule is good and works. And it doesn't matter what the legal system is designed to do. We have to attend to reality and understand what happens and how to solve the problem. Plus, she's calling the annulment anyway. She'd already called one and now was her chance to act. The city riots are just an extra.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 avril 2013 - 06:02 .

[Garden of Heaven]

What is also surprising is how the divine seems to be on the mages' side.
I wonder what convinced her to help them.
Perhaps Leliana?

Modifié par Garden of Heaven, 23 avril 2013 - 07:54 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

More like pro-templar versus pro-mage.[/quote]

This has always been about non-mages vs mages and it will always be. Some of are more and less accepting of each other but mages enslaved non-mages long ebfore there were Templars. [/quote]

No, it's been about support for the Chantry, the Chantry controlled Circles and the templars vs. autonomy for the mages from the Chantry and the templars.

Historically, mages and non-mages enslaved mages and non-mages  - Tevinter enslaving the elves of Arlathan.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As for Fiona, I hope she refuses to compromise with the Divine and Lambert's faction; the mages shouldn't bend knee anymore to the Chantry or the templars. [/quote]

There is a difference between compromising and submission, you know? [/quote]

Not to the Chantry there isn't.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

She was a high ranking templar with authority over mages. She had the power to commit murder hundreds with her word. She's the example that shows how far the Chantry controlled Circles can go when you allow an anti-mage, genocidal lunatic have command over armed and armored soldiers who have dominion over mages by divine right.[/quote]

You know, I can actually agree that there needs to be a more equalitarian relationship between mages and templars like it existed in Ferelden but none of that changes the fact that this relationship needs to exist because mages simply are much more dangerous than any non-mage.
Connor caused far more suffering in Redcliff than Vaughan did in Denerim and all he had to use was magic whereas Vaughan needed money, soldiers and for his daddy and Cailan and the Grand Cleric to be away.
You said that anyone can abuse their power and that's a fact. But it's also a fact that power comes much more easily to mages than it does to non-mages. [/quote]

People have argued for a law enforcement of mages and non-mages with templar abilities (who don't think they have dominion over mages by divine right) to keep the peace. Some of us simply don't think the Chantry is the answer.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Avvar and the Chasind revere magic and Flemeth, and are governed by their shamans. And Gaider noted they were people in societies who didn't control their mages, and were some of the societies who saw abominations as natural disasters.[/quote]

The Chansind fear Flemeth, they terrify their children with tales of her. And those shamans don't need to be mages. We had shamans and druids and magic never existed in our world. [/quote]

The Dalish fear Flemeth, too, but still respect her. The Chasind and Avvar lore teaches their shamans learned magic from the Witch of the Wild.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Abominations are not natural disasters. They are the conscious acts of men and women who need to be held accountable for their actions and measures must be taken to prevent it from happening again. Treating abominations as natural disasters is not a mentality that should be encouraged. [/quote]

It's better than the Andrastian alternative of condemning all mages as cursed. Vilifying all mages for the acts of a few is something that shouldn't be encouraged.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Having a mage in a position of leadership isn't sufficient to compare it to Tevinter when there such a stark contrast between Keepers and Magisters.[/quote]

It is if the supreme position of leadership is availabe to mages only. Sure, most Keepers are not like the Magisters but that doesn't change the fact the Dalish are not an example of a society where mages and non-mages are equals. [/quote]

No, it isn't. None of the Andrastian kingdoms have a democracy, and many Keepers are descended from the nobility of the Dales. The elves also believe they all used to wield magic during the days of Arlathan. Trying to say that the Dalish are like Tevinter is incredibly disingenuous when the two couldn't be more dissimilar.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And you're missing the point - Rivain is another example that free mages don't automatically mean another Tevinter. [/quote]

Rivain is not an example because we don't know just how free mages are nor how they society works. [/quote]

We already have a new codex saying the Circle of Rivain worked with the seers, and a prior codex where Rivain is listed as one of the places where templars don't control mages (their witches specifically). So the idea of free mages automatically creating another Tevinter doesn't hold water.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden does plenty of good with the Collective, including dispatching dangerous mages who pose a threat to people, and eliminating an abomination.[/quote]

The dangerous mages who pose a threat to the people are the mages of the colective.
You can't honestly believe that a mage couldn't distinguish between blood magic and regular magic. Or that asking for a book on how to control demons or warning mage who are; supposedly; not blood magic with blood is not suspicious. [/quote]

Blood magic isn't evil. The people were being warned about the approaching templars. Wilhelm controlled demons to study them for altruistic reasons. We also have the tasks where the Collective asks The Warden to take down dangerous mages who pose a threat to people and an abomination.

[leighzard]

Silfren wrote...

Problem being that they failed miserably. Part of the goal was to keep it secret that Maric was the father.

Oh, I just meant the elf thing. If it were known that Alistair had an elven mother it would be slightly more scandalous, and they could never use him as a spare heir if something were to happen to Cailan. I got the sense that Alistair was the only one who wanted to keep the Maric part a secret.

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Darkspawn were the creation of mages, and they remain a threat to this day, with the first blight nearly causing the extinction of the races of Thedas had becoming a Grey Warden never been discovered.

Is that true? I thought they were the creation of the Maker who cursed those who tried to reach the golden city. Sometimes I misremember the lore though. Of course, I suppose that the hubris of the man is the real culprit here so I don't know if it makes a difference whether you blame Maker or you blame the mages.

Todd23 wrote...

If Fiona's in the game... can we have the option to give Alistair another half sibling?

I wouldn't be surprised if there was another one. I got the impression that after Rowan died, Maric was a free agent.

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Let us not forget that the veil in Kirkwall was weaker than the rest of the Free Marches, which could have explained why blood mages were abundant there.

Isn't that a chicken and egg kind of situation? Maybe the veil was thin because the blood mages were there, not the blood mages were there because the veil was thin. That veil didn't thin itself after all. Besides there was also all that red lyrium underground, and it seems to have some surprising powers. I could see it having some sort of subconscious pull on those who use blood magic.

Silfren wrote...

Meredith has shown from day one she's happy to do her own thing, the will of the people be damned, and she has the largest standing army of Templars in the region.

Plus didn't she install Viscount Dumar as a puppet? After he was beheaded, she didn't even bother with that formality. Meredith was definitely making a power grab, not executing the will of the people.

Sorry... that was kind of all over the place.

Modifié par leborum, 23 avril 2013 - 09:29 .

[Silfren]

leborum wrote...

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Darkspawn were the creation of mages, and they remain a threat to this day, with the first blight nearly causing the extinction of the races of Thedas had becoming a Grey Warden never been discovered.

Is that true? I thought they were the creation of the Maker who cursed those who tried to reach the golden city. Sometimes I misremember the lore though. Of course, I suppose that the hubris of the man is the real culprit here so I don't know if it makes a difference whether you blame Maker or you blame the mages.

You've got the right of it, technically.  The Chantry teaching is that when the Tevinter mages broke into the (allegedly) Golden City, the Maker cursed them and cast them back down to earth--it was the cursing that turned them into darkspawn; the darkspawn weren't, say, created by mages in a lab. 

Though it should be stressed that this remains Chantry doctrine, not proven fact.  I think it's been confirmed that the Tevinters did indeed enter a place in the Fade they themselves believed was golden, and did something that caused themselves to be twisted into the original darkspawn, but that's as far as it goes--it means that they did SOMETHING that caused a very bad consequence.  It doesn't automatically mean they pissed off the wrong God, or that the Golden City was his stronghold.  The Chantry doctrine surrounding what happened could well be nothing more than the real story having been mythologized over the centuries.

[LobselVith8]

leborum wrote...

Is that true? I thought they were the creation of the Maker who cursed those who tried to reach the golden city. Sometimes I misremember the lore though. Of course, I suppose that the hubris of the man is the real culprit here so I don't know if it makes a difference whether you blame Maker or you blame the mages.

Corypheus' words call into question the validity of this Chantry fable. He seems to say the City was already Black when he arrived with the other Magisters; this could indicate that the Magisters weren't even the first darkspawn, since the dwarven accounts make no reference to darkspawn like Corypheus in their initial sightings of the first darkspawn in recorded history.

[leighzard]

^Thanks, y'all. I've only played through Legacy once, so I was definitely fuzzy on that one. I have big plans to re-run it soon, though.

[Senya]

^

Once again, Bioware leaves it ambiguous. It could have always been black. Or it could have become black the moment they entered the Fade. And we have not looked through the whole shaperate yet, making things even more unclear.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

He seems to say the City was already Black when he arrived with the other Magisters; this could indicate that the Magisters weren't even the first darkspawn, since the dwarven accounts make no reference to darkspawn like Corypheus in their initial sightings of the first darkspawn in recorded history.

There's no mention in the timeline or 1st Blight Codices of the existence of Darkspawn before 800 TE. Wouldn't it be odd if the Darkspawn existed before the Magister's trip to the GC, as non of the Old Gods were tainted before then?

A probable explanation for the Dwarves ignorance of the tainted Magisters could be that they stayed topside during the majority of the Blight, or that all the potential witnesses (defenders) were killed when the Thaigs were conquered.

Plus Corypheus' statement only confirms his GC visit, that Dumat or an imposter are involved, and that the GC wasn't golden, while debunking the claim that the magisters corrupted the GC like the CoL claims.

[azarhal]

leborum wrote...

^Thanks, y'all. I've only played through Legacy once, so I was definitely fuzzy on that one. I have big plans to re-run it soon, though.

While Corypheus says it was black and corrupt when they "entered it", they were seeking the golden light and the power of the gods. So part of the Chantry teaching is actually correct:

• they were worshipping the Old Gods
• magisters did try to enter the golden city
• they were turned into darkspawns upon the feat
• they were trying to get the power of god(s) (aka usurp haven)

The questions is more "was it really the golden city they entered or not".

I replayed it last night.

[The Hierophant]

^I'm starting to think that Dumat tricked the magisters into trespassing the Fade's toxic waste dump.

[The Hierophant]

double post

Modifié par The Hierophant, 24 avril 2013 - 02:39 .

[MisterJB]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
No, it's been about support for the Chantry, the Chantry controlled Circles and the templars vs. autonomy for the mages from the Chantry and the templars.

Historically, mages and non-mages enslaved mages and non-mages  - Tevinter enslaving the elves of Arlathan.[/quote]
And what is the Chantry comprised of? Non-mages? Whom does it wish to protect? Who do we refer to as "the people" when we have these debates? Non-mages.
This is an on and off war that has been going on since the humans stepped into Thedas and it will continue to rage so long as there normal people and mages. Regardless of who wins this in DAI, a decade, a century or a millenia from now, non-mages and mages will be at war again.

[quote]

Not to the Chantry there isn't.[/quote]
Demonize them all you want. The matter of the fact is that, when the Chantry was placed at the head of the non-mages in Thedas, she created a system of checks and balances meant to create a confortable life for mages while making Thedas safe for non-mages. Mages are locked up but they are also given limited rights, freedom, autonomy.
If you wish to see true submission, take a look at Tevinter or Par-Vollen, may they mutually destroy each other.
Despite what Osama Bin Anders might say, the Chantry are the ones who have shown an willingness to compromise. The mages, on the other hand, haven't.


[quote]
People have argued for a law enforcement of mages and non-mages with templar abilities (who don't think they have dominion over mages by divine right) to keep the peace. Some of us simply don't think the Chantry is the answer.[/quote]
Law enforcement is useless when the mages are the ones writing the laws, as Tevinter proves every day. And the only thing preventing the mages from taking over society is the Circle System.
Magic is an advantage and advantages are used to reach the top of the hierarchy. That is simply a fact.

[quote]
The Dalish fear Flemeth, too, but still respect her. The Chasind and Avvar lore teaches their shamans learned magic from the Witch of the Wild.[/quote]
Source?
And even if true, all that shows is yet another society mages have taken over.

[quote]
It's better than the Andrastian alternative of condemning all mages as cursed. Vilifying all mages for the acts of a few is something that shouldn't be encouraged.[/quote]
No, it most certainly is not. Do you know what the emotiona response to a natural disaster is? Resignation.
Resignations because you can't be angry at something that has no conscience and we humans can't do much to prevent them yet. Neither of that is true for Abominations. Abominations have a mind and can be prevented and the non-mages of Thedas shouldn't just resign themselves to be eaten by monsters because "that's the way it is".
The Chantry does not villify all mages for the acts of a few. It understand that every mage is powerful and that every mage can abuse his power and that thus we can't ignore that fact and treat them as if they were normal people.
That is not villifying anyone. That is stating a fact.

[quote]
No, it isn't. None of the Andrastian kingdoms have a democracy, and many Keepers are descended from the nobility of the Dales. The elves also believe they all used to wield magic during the days of Arlathan. Trying to say that the Dalish are like Tevinter is incredibly disingenuous when the two couldn't be more dissimilar.[/quote]
So, basically, you're not even denying that magic has taken over elven society and that elven non-mages are not equal to mages.
You're just ok with it and think it should be applied more broadly.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]
We already have a new codex saying the Circle of Rivain worked with the seers, and a prior codex where Rivain is listed as one of the places where templars don't control mages (their witches specifically). So the idea of free mages automatically creating another Tevinter doesn't hold water.[/quote]
1- The idea of seers being free does not impede male mages from following more closely the rules of the CIrcle just like there being Morrigan and Flemeth in Ferelden doesn't stop from there being a Circle guarded by Templars.
2-There are qunari in Rivain and they are not going to tolerate mages.
3-We don't know how the mages have negativelly affected the lives of the people of Rivain.

[quote]
Blood magic isn't evil. The people were being warned about the approaching templars. Wilhelm controlled demons to study them for altruistic reasons. We also have the tasks where the Collective asks The Warden to take down dangerous mages who pose a threat to people and an abomination.[/quote]
Are you honestly trying to justify blood magic and demon summoning? Blood magic is powered by death and volence (World of Thedas), it obviously shouldn't be used by unsactioned mages and Wilhelm's little experiments only lead to his granddaugther being possessed.
The Mages of the Collective wish to be free but we can't even trust them to not use blood magic and demon summoning the second they're not being watched by Templars. Clearly they can't be trusted.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 avril 2013 - 04:42 .

[ladyofpayne]

When i meet her I will kill her. I am tired of her clishe-personality.

[Garden of Heaven]

What surprises me most is that Fiona was the first person in the Dragon Age universe to ever utter profanity, in the form of explicit words like f***.
I wonder why she hates the divine so much.

Modifié par Garden of Heaven, 24 avril 2013 - 09:30 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

No, it's been about support for the Chantry, the Chantry controlled Circles and the templars vs. autonomy for the mages from the Chantry and the templars.

Historically, mages and non-mages enslaved mages and non-mages  - Tevinter enslaving the elves of Arlathan.[/quote]

And what is the Chantry comprised of? Non-mages? Whom does it wish to protect? Who do we refer to as "the people" when we have these debates? Non-mages.

This is an on and off war that has been going on since the humans stepped into Thedas and it will continue to rage so long as there normal people and mages. Regardless of who wins this in DAI, a decade, a century or a millenia from now, non-mages and mages will be at war again. [/quote]

The Chantry seems more invested in keeping the mages under their command than protecting anyone, to the point of vilifying mages to the people so that society is hostile and deadly to any mages outside the Circle.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Not to the Chantry there isn't.[/quote]

Demonize them all you want. The matter of the fact is that, when the Chantry was placed at the head of the non-mages in Thedas, she created a system of checks and balances meant to create a confortable life for mages while making Thedas safe for non-mages. Mages are locked up but they are also given limited rights, freedom, autonomy.
If you wish to see true submission, take a look at Tevinter or Par-Vollen, may they mutually destroy each other.

Despite what Osama Bin Anders might say, the Chantry are the ones who have shown an willingness to compromise. The mages, on the other hand, haven't. [/quote]

It's not a compromise when the Chantry has all the power. It's an oppressive system of subjugation that some condemn as slavery. And enough mages broke free of Chantry oppression to tell me what they thought of the Chantry controlled Circles.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

People have argued for a law enforcement of mages and non-mages with templar abilities (who don't think they have dominion over mages by divine right) to keep the peace. Some of us simply don't think the Chantry is the answer.[/quote]

Law enforcement is useless when the mages are the ones writing the laws, as Tevinter proves every day. And the only thing preventing the mages from taking over society is the Circle System.
Magic is an advantage and advantages are used to reach the top of the hierarchy. That is simply a fact. [/quote]

No, it isn't a fact, because the non-Andrastian societies with free mages didn't emulate Tevinter.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish fear Flemeth, too, but still respect her. The Chasind and Avvar lore teaches their shamans learned magic from the Witch of the Wild.[/quote]

Source?
And even if true, all that shows is yet another society mages have taken over. [/quote]

The codex on the Chasind. And having mages in positions of leadership doesn't make them another Tevinter.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It's better than the Andrastian alternative of condemning all mages as cursed. Vilifying all mages for the acts of a few is something that shouldn't be encouraged.[/quote]

No, it most certainly is not. Do you know what the emotiona response to a natural disaster is? Resignation. 
Resignations because you can't be angry at something that has no conscience and we humans can't do much to prevent them yet. Neither of that is true for Abominations. Abominations have a mind and can be prevented and the non-mages of Thedas shouldn't just resign themselves to be eaten by monsters because "that's the way it is".
The Chantry does not villify all mages for the acts of a few. It understand that every mage is powerful and that every mage can abuse his power and that thus we can't ignore that fact and treat them as if they were normal people.
That is not villifying anyone. That is stating a fact. [/quote]

The Chantry vilifies mages as cursed, which has lead to the deaths of countless innocent people, and the anti-mage religious organization gives their private army "dominion over mages by divine right". The Chantry has proven what a morally bankrupt and monstrous organization it is.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

No, it isn't. None of the Andrastian kingdoms have a democracy, and many Keepers are descended from the nobility of the Dales. The elves also believe they all used to wield magic during the days of Arlathan. Trying to say that the Dalish are like Tevinter is incredibly disingenuous when the two couldn't be more dissimilar.[/quote]

So, basically, you're not even denying that magic has taken over elven society and that elven non-mages are not equal to mages.
You're just ok with it and think it should be applied more broadly. [/quote]

Magic hasn't taken over elven society; it was part of their culture since the inception. As Merrill says, everyone was a mage in Arlathan. The elves want to reclaim their magic, their culture, and their immortality. And the point was that the Dalish aren't another Tevinter.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We already have a new codex saying the Circle of Rivain worked with the seers, and a prior codex where Rivain is listed as one of the places where templars don't control mages (their witches specifically). So the idea of free mages automatically creating another Tevinter doesn't hold water.[/quote]
1- The idea of seers being free does not impede male mages from following more closely the rules of the CIrcle just like there being Morrigan and Flemeth in Ferelden doesn't stop from there being a Circle guarded by Templars.
2-There are qunari in Rivain and they are not going to tolerate mages.
3-We don't know how the mages have negativelly affected the lives of the people of Rivain. [/quote]

Let me repeat myself: Rivain has free mages. The codex entries said it. The developers said it. And it isn't another Tevinter. The idea of free mages automatically creating another Tevinter is simply wrong.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood magic isn't evil. The people were being warned about the approaching templars. Wilhelm controlled demons to study them for altruistic reasons. We also have the tasks where the Collective asks The Warden to take down dangerous mages who pose a threat to people and an abomination.[/quote]
Are you honestly trying to justify blood magic and demon summoning? Blood magic is powered by death and volence (World of Thedas), it obviously shouldn't be used by unsactioned mages and Wilhelm's little experiments only lead to his granddaugther being possessed. [/quote]

Grey Wardens have used blood magic to protect people from the darkspawn. The Joining is a form of blood magic. The phylacteries are blood magic. Finn used a blood magic ritual to locate the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes. Merrill used blood magic to amplify a spell needed to cleanse the shard of the taint. Some apostates use blood magic to keep themselves safe from templars, who can nullify their powers otherwise.

Blood magic isn't evil.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

The Mages of the Collective wish to be free but we can't even trust them to not use blood magic and demon summoning the second they're not being watched by Templars. Clearly they can't be trusted.[/quote]

The Collective are free. Blood magic isn't evil. Wilhelm is an example of a mage using demonology to study demons to find ways to properly combat them, because the Chantry is keeping everyone ignorant about them (which is one of his complaints).

[EmperorSahlertz]

Finn didn't use blood magic, nor is the joinning blood magic.Sure you want to claim that both are, because that somehow aids your cause, but neither are, so stop trying to push them as if they are.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Chantry seems more invested in keeping the mages under their command than protecting anyone, to the point of vilifying mages to the people so that society is hostile and deadly to any mages outside the Circle.

You are speaking about two completely different things.
First you accuse the Chantry of not protecting anyone which is blantantly untrue as we've seen the Chantry standing up against threats such as the Darkspawn and the Qunari for the people while everyone else ran.
And then you completely change the subject to your perceptions of villification; it's not as if a culture that fought to free itself from the tyranny of magic will be against magic, oh not at all, it must be the Chantry; which are entirely unrelated to the matter of Chantry protection.
Just pilling up accusations does not an argument make.

It's not a compromise when the Chantry has all the power. It's an oppressive system of subjugation that some condemn as slavery. And enough mages broke free of Chantry oppression to tell me what they thought of the Chantry controlled Circles.

It is a compromise. Mages are allowed to live and train their powers so long as they do it away from the general population. The Chantry gives up some safety and the mages give up some freedom. Both parties give some part of their demands. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't change the fact that is the very definition of compromise.

During the Black Plague, people tough the cats were to blame for the sickness and killed them all; which only make things worse since the rats were to blame. Apparently, popularity doesn't equal truth.
Who would have thought?

No, it isn't a fact, because the non-Andrastian societies with free mages didn't emulate Tevinter.

Ok, I'm going to explain myself more clearly so there are no more confusions.
Society does not need to emulate Tevinter in order for there to be an higher class and a lower class of citizens. All it takes is for there to be a class of people who hold the wealth or the political power.
The Dalish are such a society. The position of Keeper holds supreme power and only mages may become Keepers. Therefore, non-mages are lower class citizens. There is no slavery but there is also no equality.

Do you understand now? When pro-templars such as me speak of mages taking over, we are not merely speaking of mages sitting in thrones and holding whips. We are speaking of mages becoming the higher class of society through entirely legal means such as becoming the sole provider of a necessary good as the Thedosian equivalent of oil.
There is no equality to be found between mages and non-mages and we oppose free mages exactly because we do not wish to see non-mages becoming second class citizens, regardless of how close to Tevinter the system is.

The Chantry vilifies mages as cursed, which has lead to the deaths of countless innocent people, and the anti-mage religious organization gives their private army "dominion over mages by divine right". The Chantry has proven what a morally bankrupt and monstrous organization it is.

Calling mages cursed is not the same as blaming all for the actions of a few. Don't change the goal posts.

You know, I could ennumerate every single positive action of the Chantry and compare it to other similar organization in Thedas but that would be a waste of time since there is no convincing you.
Instead, I'm just going to say that Mr.Gaider called the Chantry a "mostly benefitial" organization. That's Word of God.

Let me repeat myself: Rivain has free mages. The codex entries said it. The developers said it. And it isn't another Tevinter. The idea of free mages automatically creating another Tevinter is simply wrong.

There are different degrees of freedom. We are told that seers see their families and willingly become Abominations. That does not mean, for instance, that these privileges are extended to male mages or that mages are allowed to freely reproduce; there is nothing saying mages are free as non-mages in Rivan. The simple presence of the Qunari assures that mages are not free in all of Rivain.
And most important of all, we do not know how negativelly magic has affected the lives of the rivaini. It doesn't need to be another Tevinter for their lives to be improved by a more strict control of magic.
You can repeat yourself how many times you like but these are all valid points and until you adress them, simply pointing to Rivain and calling it an utopia is a baseless, flawed argument.

Blood magic isn't evil.

Blood magic is powered by violence and death (World of Thedas) and its use are frequently sinister such as demon summoning, mind control, necromancy.
If you don't wish to use the word "evil", we can just say that it's nature is quite dark even if it can be used for good. But that doesn't mean that it should fall upon the criteria of any and all mages whether to use something so sinister and dangerous.

You many not like it but there are good reasons to police magic, especially blood magic. And mages who fancy themselves safe and obeying the Maker's Laws shouldn't be using it.

The Collective are free. Blood magic isn't evil. Wilhelm is an example of a mage using demonology to study demons to find ways to properly combat them, because the Chantry is keeping everyone ignorant about them (which is one of his complaints).

All you have to do is read the different codex entries on demons and you'll see that they are composed of scientific studies upon the nature and behavior of demons conducted by Circle Mages and templars so as to better fight them.
Whilhelm is an idiot who summoned a demon in his cellar and his granddaugther is possessed because of it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 avril 2013 - 12:15 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Chantry prohibits research into demons because it is incredibly dangerous for both the mage conducting the research and everyone in the vicinity. However, there have evidently already been done adequate research into demon behavior and defenses against them, since that is exactly what the Circle teaches. Sure, that knowledge can be expanded upon, but it should be done so in extremely controlled enviroments, and not by some random mage, going under the radar, in his cellar....

[Garden of Heaven]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry prohibits research into demons because it is incredibly dangerous for both the mage conducting the research and everyone in the vicinity. However, there have evidently already been done adequate research into demon behavior and defenses against them, since that is exactly what the Circle teaches. Sure, that knowledge can be expanded upon, but it should be done so in extremely controlled enviroments, and not by some random mage, going under the radar, in his cellar....

Paramond's research was commisioned by the divine, and he was tranquil, which means he would never have tried to do the research had the divine not ordered him to do so.
So he was never technically under the radar.

[WillPF363]

So if I understand you MrJB, you're saying that it's not Mages using their powers to forcibly take thrones and enslave people- rather that they will simply become the upper class because magic gives them an advantage? Which is why you're discounting other societies in Thedas that have less restrictions on Mages and still haven't gone the way of Tevinter? Like Rivain, or pre-Calenhad Ferelden. So what I'm getting from you is that (aside from the dangers of blood magic and demons) mages should be in circles because they have an unfair chance to be important in society.

Because that is a terrible argument. First, a free and fair society should not be based on the oppression of a certain group. And second, Thedas is not a free or fair society. Tevinter still has slavery, that's the obvious one sure. But Orlais still has serfdom and that's pretty much slavery-lite. They also still have nobles who can run rough-shod over the peasents with little to no consequences, and Chevaliers who can go around raping women whenever they feel like it. And Orlais is the Chantry's home base.

Mages can be dangerous, but the Chantry controls them for their own power and gain more than altruism. There should still be Cirlces, so that mages can learn to control their abilities- but they shouldn't be locked in there forever losing more and more freedoms with each passing year because some mage somewhere pulled an Anders. Safety is good, but you can never guarantee safety. You can do your best to hold to due process and innocense until proven guilty.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry prohibits research into demons because it is incredibly dangerous for both the mage conducting the research and everyone in the vicinity. However, there have evidently already been done adequate research into demon behavior and defenses against them, since that is exactly what the Circle teaches. Sure, that knowledge can be expanded upon, but it should be done so in extremely controlled enviroments, and not by some random mage, going under the radar, in his cellar....

Paramond's research was commisioned by the divine, and he was tranquil, which means he would never have tried to do the research had the divine not ordered him to do so.
So he was never technically under the radar.

I was referring to WIlhelm, from the Stone Prisoner DLC in DA:O, who was conducting experiments on demons, without the approval of the Chantry, or even the Circle officially.

[In Exile]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Finn didn't use blood magic, nor is the joinning blood magic.Sure you want to claim that both are, because that somehow aids your cause, but neither are, so stop trying to push them as if they are.

I can't recall about Fin, but I the joining is blatantly blood magic. 

[In Exile]

WillPF363 wrote...
Because that is a terrible argument. First, a free and fair society should not be based on the oppression of a certain group.  

You can easily make the argument that It isn't a free and fair society when you have a natural ruling that exists only in virtue of having won the natural lottery. John Rawls has a very lengthy treatise on this as part of the liberal political theory.

Modifié par In Exile, 24 avril 2013 - 05:31 .

[azarhal]

In Exile wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Finn didn't use blood magic, nor is the joinning blood magic.Sure you want to claim that both are, because that somehow aids your cause, but neither are, so stop trying to push them as if they are.

I can't recall about Fin, but I the joining is blatantly blood magic. 

The wiki says this:

While retrieving the lights he will
ask for Ariane's blood to locate them. If the Warden is elvish, he
states that Warden blood is different from pure Dalish blood, likely due
to the presence of Darkspawn taint. When asked if what he is doing is blood magic, Finn states that it is a gray area as the spell's power does not come from the blood, but nevertheless they should keep this incident to themselves

Considering that phylactery is blood magic, I think that what can say that what he did is blood magic, just not of the "evil" kind.