523 réponses à ce sujet

[Siharaa]

 Did anyone else regard Elthina as somewhat culpable for the Mage / Templar wars? She's in a position of Divine authority and while she claims she can't do anything to rein Meredith in, the Mothers in Origins are shown calling the Templars to heel all the time. Meredith's whole position is legitimised by the Chantry, and the Grand Cleric. 

I feel like she could have intervened at any time, and chose not to. 

Modifié par Siharaa, 08 janvier 2013 - 10:34 .

[dragonflight288]

That is a very strong possibility. Hawke can even bring her evidence of Alrik still wanting to go through the Right of Tranquility on every mage, and she barely glances at it.

I think it's really easy to see her as incompetent, but one scene in the game just keeps sticking out like a sore thumb that makes it hard to see her that way, at least for me. That scene is when Mother Petrice tries to frame Hawke for murder inside the Chantry, and Elthina pretty much drops Petrice, saying that justice must be served and Petrice diminishes the Maker, but doesn't even bat an eye when a Qunari comes in and assassinates Petrice.

[dgcatanisiri]

Yeah, I do think Elthina has blame in letting the situation get as far as it did. The most she did was send Meredith and Orsino to their rooms without supper when they were arguing pretty much right outside her window. In Act II, when Patrice tries to blame Hawke for Saemus's death, Elthina says that the Maker gave her ears to hear. Shame she didn't use her Maker given eyes to look at the state of the mages in the Gallows or her Maker given voice to speak out against Meredith's tyranny. The templars are, supposedly, under the supervision of the Chantry, which means that she SHOULD be able to do something about Meredith. By not, she's giving implicit approval to her actions. And yet the rumors about the treatment of the mages had to have reached her, and Meredith DEFINITELY exceeded her authority by basically putting Kirkwall under a templar-imposed martial law for several years, and all the while, Elthina does nothing.

Elthina meant to push for and encourage compromise by allowing things to progress and only separating Meredith and Orsino when things came close to boiling over and threatening to turn into the situation that Anders creates at the end. But instead, by not intervening sooner, she turned out to make the situation worse. Though I do think it's a shame that she paid the ultimate price for it, she could have at least made the effort to reign in Meredith's excesses. Even if Meredith would have ignored it, a token effort at least would mean that she wanted to make the situation better. A token effort is better than none.

[MisterJB]

It is quite obvious that Meredtih listens to no one. Had Elthina publically accused Meredith; which is debatable if it was even the right thing to do considering the number of blood mages running rampant in the city; Meredith would just have claimed that Elthina was being mind controlled by a blood mage. She would have believed it too.
This would have split the templars down the middle between the factions more loyal to the Chantry and those more loyal to Meredith. What Meredith would do then is hard to predict but I suspect she would have used the RoA. The blood mages would have taken this opportunity to act and suddenly there's templars and mages fighting on the streets of Kirkwall, killing innocents.
If the mages won, then Kirkwall would become a second Minrathous which means the Divine would call for an Exhalted March and likely raze the place to the ground. Which considering it is sitting on top of a FadeMouth, might not actually be a bad idea.

Yes, Elthina knew of the abuses. Yes, she felt awful for the mages but she was concerned about more than their lives. And she never supported mage freedom in the first place, anyway.

[Siharaa]

Elthina, despite stating otherwise, is in charge of Meredith, even controlling the lyrium that Templars are addicted to. She also states that she 'cannot turn' on the templars, regardless of their behaviour.

This is despite Templar actions disrupting the power balance, to the Chantry's advantage, when the Templar fanatics provoke the Qunari and murder the Viscount's son, leading to the Viscount's murder. 

Washing her hands of it all - when she's probably the most powerful person in Kirkwall - is unacceptable in that situation. Totally agree with the 'implicit approval' idea. After all, with the Viscount dead and the Mages neutered, the Chantry is virtually unopposed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

No.
Could Elthina have done more than she did? Probably.
Did she have to? No.
Was she trying to maintain peace? Yes.
Was she trying o keep compromise on the table? Yes. Even Anders admits that. Which is why he targeted her.

The mages were nowhere near as bad off as many claim.

[Siharaa]

My argument is that Elthina's lack of action destroyed Kirkwall. You don't maintain peace by turning a blind eye to the oppression of your subordinates, you do it by balancing the needs and wants of all people. She could have appointed Thrask - a moderate, equilibrium seeking (and sane) templar as Knight Commander - if peace had been what she was really looking for.

Okay I want to pin you down on this one - You think:

• Forcible, unnecessary lobotomy
• Forcible adoption of your children if you get pregnant
• Imprisonment within one tower your whole life
• Living in a constant state of suspicion
• Having your every action scrutinised

Isn't being bad off?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Everything in that list is justified.


Mages being locked up IS balancing the needs of all people.
Mages are whining primadonnas.

They don't have it as bad as most mage supporters claim - something that is repeatedly proven. Even Bethany - a mage that lived free her whole life - don't think that life in the tower is bad untill the very end, when Meredith goes fully bonkers - and even then it's more a matter of principle and persuation (and possible blood magic from Orsino)

[Sylvanpyxie]

Look at it this way - A lot of Players felt that Hawke was put into a moronic position, forced to choose one side over the other when both sides had their failings and both sides had their share of blame. Between the increasing insanity of Meredith and the Blood Mages running rampant in the streets, it was quite obvious to Players that both sides were going loopy - A lot of Players just didn't want to get involved.

Having stood in Hawke's shoes(so to speak) I can safely say I would continue to claim neutrality for as long as humanly possible, because there was no way in the Nine Hells I was ever going to make the situation better.

Elthina was in the same boat - People claim she had a position of power, but the situation in Kirkwall was far beyond control. There was no possible way to police both sides of the conflict, and to support one side would mean supporting failures that were unacceptable.

Support Meredith and her Templars? Support Meredith's insanity to oppress the Circle.
Support Orsino and the Circle? Support the countless misuses of magic that have plagued Kirkwall for years.

We've been in Elthina's shoes and quite a few of us were happy to sit in neutrality until a choice was forced down our throats.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 09 janvier 2013 - 08:20 .

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Everything in that list is justified.


Mages being locked up IS balancing the needs of all people.
Mages are whining primadonnas.

They don't have it as bad as most mage supporters claim - something that is repeatedly proven. Even Bethany - a mage that lived free her whole life - don't think that life in the tower is bad untill the very end, when Meredith goes fully bonkers - and even then it's more a matter of principle and persuation (and possible blood magic from Orsino)

I hate ultimatums and all-or-nothing scenarios when dealing with any demographic, but let's use some reverse psychology here.

We know that templars have the capacity to abuse their authority. We know the templas in Kirkwall had death squads killing non-mages for basic things like giving a mage cousin some food and a couch to sleep on for one night. We know the tempars under Meredith assumed control of all Kirkwall and denied the nobility the right to govern themselves, and kept the city from choosing a new leader. We know the templars under Meredith tried to force Aveline out of the Captaincy of the guard so they could solidify power.

Under those circumstances, using reverse psychology, we can say that templars

1. deserve to monitored at all times by another group
2. can be forcefully lobotomized by this group if they are considered dangerous
3. the chance of a templar killing innocent non-mages is so great that the templars have to be restrained to one location their whole lives because of the potential danger.

You may say that there are exceptions, that not every templar is a criminal or corrupt, but you dismiss that very same argument when the innocent is a mage, based entirely on potential harm.

I know that there are good templars. Gregoire is largely considered a great Knight-Commander. Thrask receives high praise on all fronts for his willingness to work with mages while staying true to what he feels a templar should be. He only acted to remove Meredith. Ser Otto in the alienage was blind, but still worked against the demons in the orphanage.

So too are there plenty of mages who are not corrupt and don't deserve the hand the Chantry and templars force on them in life. We can go back and forth on this topic non-stop. In the end, the long and short of it comes down to this.

Swords and magic don't kill people. People kill people with swords or magic.

[MisterJB]

Uh, Thrask allowed his people to just use blood magic and died exactly because of this. Personally, I'm not a fan.

[dragonflight288]

And you have every reason not to be. Samson says it well, 'when pushed into a corner, mages have options we don't.'

Thing is, because of Meredith, those mages were pushed into a corner. She was seriously abusing her authority as Knight-Commander. She shouldn't be the defacto Viscount of Kirkwall. But she was, and she used that authority to prevent the city from running itself, and the templars pretty much controlled it.

Does that mean I excuse what Thrask's rebellion did? (Kidnapping the sibling/love interest/or closest friend) Heck no. Do I approve of their use of blood magic? Not at all. I found their goal to be compelling, as Meredith was off her rocker and needed to be removed. Their methods could've easily been better.

My point still stands that magic and swords aren't what kill people. It's the people who wield them who kill people.

[MisterJB]

What other option do we have? Tell me, dragonfligth288, that you have not seen with your own eyes what they can do. Heard the lies of mages who seek power.

Seriously tough, I partially agree. Avelina, if free, would still have felt Rage over her children being left on the street and Desire to give them a better life. Huon, more likely than not, harbored anti-human sentiments all along.
But I can accept that a nice kid like Alain would probrably harmless in a Circle like Ferelden's or the White Spire.

[Lazy Jer]

dragonflight288 wrote...
 ...We can go back and forth on this topic non-stop....

...and often do.

In regards to whether Elhina was to blame?  Well...yes and no.  I liked Elthina, I really did.  Especially after I downloaded the DLC with Sebastian in it.  She was trying to broker a peace between the two warring parties (namely Orsino the Emo and Madcap Meredith [my new nicknames for the two of them]), and refused to leave Kirkwall in spite of knowing that her life was in danger on principal.  I admire that.  Furthermore I belive that the former put off crap hitting the fan sooner then it did.  

That being said, her refusal to take direct action when Meredith clearly overstepped her bounds (...and I'm speaking about taking control of the city) she didn't take a firmer direction.  Again on principal.  While her unwillingness to medel might be advantageous in other circumstances, this was a clear violation of the Chantry's role (...no qun jokes please) in the city.

She was a factor yes, but to say she's "to blame" is overstating.  Meredith is to blame, Anders is to blame.  Elthina is just a factor.

[dgcatanisiri]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Everything in that list is justified.


Mages being locked up IS balancing the needs of all people.
Mages are whining primadonnas.

They don't have it as bad as most mage supporters claim - something that is repeatedly proven. Even Bethany - a mage that lived free her whole life - don't think that life in the tower is bad untill the very end, when Meredith goes fully bonkers - and even then it's more a matter of principle and persuation (and possible blood magic from Orsino)

How about the lobotomies? Chantry law is that a mage who has passed their Harrowing is deemed strong enough to withstand the demonic temptations and should not to be made Tranquil except on their request. Meredith used it as a way to weed out dissent. And let's not forget that, even if Meredith vetoed Ser Alrik's 'Tranquil Solution,' he was still raping Tranquil women and he held a position of power in the Templars if he actually had her and Elthina directly looking at his ideas. And Varric points it out in the narration - the more Meredith tightened her grip, the more mages slipped through her fingers, the more she tightened her grip. There's a concept about this that comes to mind - "If the punishment for robbery and the punishment for murder are the same, a thief is more likely to kill." Likewise, if the punishment for running away from the Gallows and the punishment for blood magic are the same, an escaped mage will probably try to take a few of the bastards out with them. All to escape the endless templar suspicion and paranoia that gets worse with each attempt, because the templars keep backing them in to a tighter and tighter corner.

Let's say for a minute that Elthina felt her hands were tied because she didn't want to appear to favor either side which had both done wrongs. Does that really justify allowing the abuse of and flagrant disregard for Chantry law to continue unabated? Or should she have called into question Meredith's legality of these tranquilizings? And, to keep things even, she could probably pin the blood magic usage on Orsino, particularly since we at least know that he kept these dangerous teachings and writings within arm's reach (Quinton), which means that he probably shouldn't have had his position either. So why not call for both sides to step down and let cooler heads (and, yes, I am aware that there's no guarantee that new heads would be cooler, but there'd at least be a chance) take over? I don't argue that Elthina was in a really bad position. But she did have options available to her. Instead she opted not to do anything beyond struggle to maintain the status quo when all that was happening was that the situation was getting worse. Even if she thought that was the best way to keep the current peace, it was a short-term solution at best, and, honestly, if things had been aired out sooner, odds are things in Kirkwall would not have reached the point that it did.

Also, I am THIS close to trying to find some kind of 'Apathy is death' image to go along with this. "So you will do nothing? Apathy is death. Worse than death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds the beasts and insects." And that's what the overall stance that Elthina took comes across as 'do nothing.'

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
My point still stands that magic and swords aren't what kill people. It's the people who wield them who kill people.

Irrelevant.

Swords don't poseeses poeple (unless they are of magic lyrium).
Swords can't do what magic does.

Mundanes and mages are NOT the same and they cannot be treated the same.

[TEWR]

Yes.

[Stella-Arc]

She was a factor, not the cause so no. The Tevinter Imperium, Meredith, Orisino, and Anders are to blame.

Modifié par Stella-Arc, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:57 .

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

What other option do we have? Tell me, dragonfligth288, that you have not seen with your own eyes what they can do. Heard the lies of mages who seek power.

Seriously tough, I partially agree. Avelina, if free, would still have felt Rage over her children being left on the street and Desire to give them a better life. Huon, more likely than not, harbored anti-human sentiments all along.
But I can accept that a nice kid like Alain would probrably harmless in a Circle like Ferelden's or the White Spire.

And you've seen with your own eyes how much damage rogue templars can do as well. Death squads killing innocents, innocent mages who are following the rules get lobotimized and sexually abused, policital power grabs.

I have never argued mages should be completely free. Not once. I have argued for a system of checks and balances where mages are required to learn magic, but are not denied families at the least, and the templars have to have an independent third party investigate them for abuse of power, and hold them accountable.

Mages are dangerous, but so too are templars. Mages need to be in a circle system, the current one is in desperate need of reformation, but the templars need to be removed entirely if their religious zeal gets in the way of doing their duty properly, and replaced by a group with similar abilities and training, but less power over mages, or the Chantry dogma of mages being cursed in the eyes of the Maker simply for exisiting.

I have noticed throughout many of these debates that templar supporters use the potential danger of mages as a good reason to lock all mages up, but gloss over templars abusive powers and assume when mage supporters mention the abuse that we're talking about all templars. Granted, the same is generally true of mage-supporters, only in reverse, but even real life social experiments show that when one group is given power over another group, the two groups start differentiating themselves by names and class, then when one or two people of one group does something, it reflects upon the whole, then they all have the stigma, and the one with power over the other starts dehumanizing them, and then starts abusing them. (Stanford Prison Experiment)

I have also noticed that arguments on both sides dehumanize templars and mages both, and then the arguments for locking mages away sound a lot similar to arguments groups have made before committing real life genocide, or arguments regarding templars have been the same as violent real life abolitionists.

It's kind of sad and it often comes to name-calling or brutal dismissive tactics, often expanded when one poster loses their patience and simply dismisses another poster's arguments out of hand, regardless of how many factual points were actually presented, and was dismissed because they didn't agree with it.

We both recognize the danger of magic, and we both recognize the potential of abuse-of-power the templars have over mages, the real trick is finding a compromise, that probably won't exist. The Templars codex outright says that templars are largely recruited for religious zeal so they won't question difficult orders, but that also means they refuse to believe they can be wrong in the Maker's eyes for any atrocity they may end committing, things that can probably be as bad as what a bad mage can do. And mages have way too much history in the circle to ever truly trust the templars again as well.

It's a difficult situation overall, and personally I'm looking forward to Inquisition to see if new information comes up, new canon on if things get resolved, and see what else can be added to the debate that never ends...sort of like the annoying song. lol.

[tooducks58]

Of course she is. No sarcasm intended.

She wasn't helping to reconcile the two sides differences she was just absent mindedly keeping the peace while the conflict got progressively worse. And then BOOM. WORST PARENTING EVER!!

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have never argued mages should be completely free. Not once. I have argued for a system of checks and balances where mages are required to learn magic, but are not denied families at the least, and the templars have to have an independent third party investigate them for abuse of power, and hold them accountable.

But they do. It's just that it failed in Kirkwall.

The oversight you speak of is unrealistic in a medieval society - hell, it's hard to impossible to pull off in modern society. Faliure of a single point does not mean faliure of the system.

Mages are dangerous, but so too are templars. Mages need to be in a circle system, the current one is in desperate need of reformation, but the templars need to be removed entirely if their religious zeal gets in the way of doing their duty properly, and replaced by a group with similar abilities and training, but less power over mages, or the Chantry dogma of mages being cursed in the eyes of the Maker simply for exisiting.

No, tempalrs don't need replacing.
Your religion hating dogma needs replacing.

I have also noticed that arguments on both sides dehumanize templars and mages both, and then the arguments for locking mages away sound a lot similar to arguments groups have made before committing real life genocide, or arguments regarding templars have been the same as violent real life abolitionists.

They are also the same arguments used for quarantene.
I guess that means quarantene is a bad idea and we should let all people go roam free?

The Templars codex outright says that templars are largely recruited for religious zeal so they won't question difficult orders, but that also means they refuse to believe they can be wrong in the Maker's eyes for any atrocity they may end committing, things that can probably be as bad as what a bad mage can do.

You mean they are recruited by the same criteria every army wants/uses?
Obedience and discipline is kinda highly valued in ANY organization.

[dragonflight288]

But they do. It's just that it failed in Kirkwall.

The oversight you speak of is unrealistic in a medieval society - hell, it's hard to impossible to pull off in modern society. Faliure of a single point does not mean faliure of the system.

And the rest of Thedas because the mages left the Chantry all together AFTER Lord High Seeker Lambert decided to attack them while they were at a perfectly lawful meeting.

No, tempalrs don't need replacing.
Your religion hating dogma needs replacing.

I happen to be quite religious. The dogma of the chantry is quite negative on mages though.

Morrigan: There are no trials for apostates. No prisons. There are only absolutes.
and
Uldred: Your majesty, the tower and its beacon are unnecessary. The circle can-
Grand Cleric: We won't trust any lives to your SPELLS mage!
and also
Cullen (in magi origin story): (responding to Warden mentioning that templars enjoyed killing mages.): I know some templars who discuss such things with glee.

The templar codex outright states that templars are largely recruited from the religiously zealous. That makes the templar order, as they are addicted to lyrium, drug addicted religious fanatics for the most part.

Unless I misunderstood what you said, and you were actually saying the negative connotations regarding mages simply for being mages should be removed from the Chantry's teachings...then I agree.

You mean they are recruited by the same criteria every army wants/uses?
Obedience and discipline is kinda highly valued in ANY organization.

Religious zealotry is NOT a common recruitment tactic outside of terrorists. My family has a strong military history. There are plenty of reasons to join the military. Proud to serve our country, wanting to give back something, a desire to protect others. The templar codex says the Chantry recruits from religious zealots, and that's something terrorists do.

If the codex meant something different, it would've said something different.

[Lazy Jer]

Well okay, let's not pretend that it's 100% religious zealotry that causes the templars to abuse their power, and let's not put words in the mouth of the Codex. Templars don't look for "zealots" they look for people with a strong faith in the maker. Sometimes that translates into zealotry, sometimes it doesn't.

I doubt that Ser Alrick was particularly religious though. He just happened to have power over a certain group of people (i.e. Tranquils) and that power corrupted him. The problem is not the religion. Alistair is a nice enough guy and he's an Andrastean, so is Leliana, who also has strong faith in the maker.

The problem with the circle system is that there aren't enough checks and balances. If you were to put the Wardens in charge of the circle system and give them as much power as the templars do then there they might end up just as corrupted as some of the templars.

[dgcatanisiri]

The biggest problem of the entire Circle system is that it was written up and instituted while the wounds of the Tevinter Imperium were still raw. It's a reactionary system meant to punish magic users dressed up as 'the word of the Maker.' I have NEVER argued against a Circle system, because, yes, magic can be dangerous, and so those with it should be trained to be able to control their abilities. I just argue against the one that's been put into place in Thedas that treats mages like criminals for no reason than being born with magic.

Oh, and here are the exact words of the Templar codex page: "In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern." 'Unshakable faith." "Moral center as a secondary concern." These are a troubling way to run a system at best - it's how men like Ser Alrik don't get weeded out before being given a position of power. It's what allows the justification of 'the ends justify the means.' That's the same thinking that led Anders to blow up the Chantry.

Bringing this back to the original topic, I would have loved to be able to genuinely debate this with Elthina, talk to her about how Andraste, who freed the oppressed, would take to this system they've set up in her name (oh, and don't even get me started on the elves), or how the Maker would, given that these are his children still, and he MADE them with magic, but even she seems so bound up in Chantry dogma that I don't think I could get anywhere with her. I understand the idea of desiring compromise. Hell, that's usually my stance. But Meredith and Orsino were beyond compromise by the third act, and Elthina's insistence on standing for it had hit the point of actively making it worse, because a stand NEEDED to be taken.

[Lazy Jer]

dgcatanisiri wrote...
Bringing this back to the original topic, I would have loved to be able to genuinely debate this with Elthina, talk to her about how Andraste, who freed the oppressed, would take to this system they've set up in her name (oh, and don't even get me started on the elves), or how the Maker would, given that these are his children still, and he MADE them with magic, but even she seems so bound up in Chantry dogma that I don't think I could get anywhere with her. I understand the idea of desiring compromise. Hell, that's usually my stance. But Meredith and Orsino were beyond compromise by the third act, and Elthina's insistence on standing for it had hit the point of actively making it worse, because a stand NEEDED to be taken.

Well, two things.  One is that while she did need, in my opinion, to take a stronger stance it's like she had knowledge beforehand that something rather fowl was going to hit the fan anytime too soon, nor did she know that Meredith was possessed by the lyrium idol and thus compromise, for her, was literally impossible.  Meaning that she was doing, in my opinion, a lot more then she ever gets credit for by listening to both sides.

Second, her stance made her a factor in the events at the end of Chapter 3, but you really can't say that she's "to blame", or if you can then that same rational could blame the former King of Ferelden on the Blight because he didn't override Lord Lohain and bring the rest of the wardens from Orlais.  Or you could blame the deaths in Redcliff on Connor's teacher (I forget his name) because he didn't teach him specifically NOT to consort with demons.  It's basically a game you can play all day.  Which is why I say she's a factor, but blame should be placed on Meredith and Anders.