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[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...
*snip*

Ah, bringing up the evidence I've brought up before! Kudos, mate, I was just about to come in and post about Andraste being a Mage. Here's some more information, along with some that you've already stated. I'm going to post my post from the past for completeness' sake.

First, we have the book that's a gift for Wynne, which was cast into a fire no doubt for being something deemed heretical to the popular belief of Andraste. How it ended up in Orzammar I don't know. Maybe the Dwarves found it and wanted to hold onto it, should they need to use the information it presents as leverage against the Chantry.

Second, we have the mystic blade entitled Glandivalis by Shartan. One of the abilities this blade is imbued with is the power to possibly take control of an enemy in battle. It's obviously blood magic.

Third, the Guardian himself says that Andraste would often spend days at a time meditating without food or water. A pair of boots obtainable in Witch Hunt I believe says that a mage of the Antivan Circle would often traverse the Fade for days on end as a hobby (to which she was subsequently misbranded as dead and buried alive).

Fourth, we have a statue from the Temple that was built after Andraste's death by her faithful followers with a very odd placement for the flames that light the area:


https://encrypted-tb...C4wvJn55D4Dc7k3

*thankfully, Google Chrome is capable of copying images*

There might be more.

EDIT: Let's not forget that the stories claim that the powers of the Maker were on Andraste's side. That of fire and hail, storms and floods, drought and gusts, etc.

Whether she actually had any contact with the Maker is unknown, for now. She may never have really had anything to do with Him -- if He even exists -- or she may have been His Prophet all along.

Either way, the Chantry loses some credibility if this comes to light by someone not associated with the current Divine. Were the current Divine to reveal such information, it would lend itself well to supporting Mage rights and may help garner support for her methinks since she's the one revealing it.

It would definitely help her get the Mages on her side, if they're not smart enough to offer their help to the woman that is supporting their call for more rights in the first place.

There's also some minor evidence to suggest that she was an OGB, like Calenhad was.

MisterJB wrote...

It would destroy the spirit of every human non mage in Thedas.
Suddenly, the Fall of the Emperium wasn't due to the Maker seeing the justice of our case or the mundane men and women of Thedas having had enough and rise up against opression.
No, it was just a really powerful mage who took pity on us and came to rescue us.

Honestly, if I could choose I would simply have Andraste be an incredibly charismatic leader. No Maker, no magic. Just bravery, charisma and intelligence.

Bronto****. 

One could easily still say that the Maker, in all his infinite wisdom, saw that a Mage was the best way to take down the Imperium and chose her to lead the armies. Being a Mage does not nullify all of the other things that make Andraste great.

I'd appreciate it for its irony, especially if it was a triple dose where Andraste wasn't just a Mage, but an OGB and a Somniari Blood Mage.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 février 2013 - 10:12 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Bronto****. 

One could easily still say that the Maker, in all his infinite wisdom, saw that a Mage was the best way to take down the Imperium and chose her to lead the armies. Being a Mage does not nullify all of the other things that make Andraste great.

I'd appreciate it for its irony, especially if it was a triple dose where Andraste wasn't just a Mage, but an OGB and a Somniari Blood Mage.

Right, what would we poor, defenseless mundanes would do without big strong mages to help us.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Right, what would we poor, defenseless mundanes would do without big strong mages to help us.

That type of mindset where one takes issue with how a Mage was the Maker's Chosen would, in Thedas and real life, essentially be man questioning the decisions of what people believe to be a perfect god. Not a good road to travel. If the Maker chose a Mage to topple an oppressive empire and reform the world, who is a mundane or Mage to question His decision?

Regardless, let's assume that Andraste was an OGB Somniari Blood Mage as the evidence suggests. The Maker, being omniscient and omnipotent, would know this. Perhaps he chose her for the irony. Use the very child embodying Dumat's spirit -- or whoever led the First Blight, as Legacy muddies the waters a bit -- to bring down the people that worship the Old Gods and abuse their power.

Also, Mages have actually helped save the world many times over. The Second Blight was repelled only as much as it was when Drakon brought in the Circle Mages to fight alongside him. Mages have been critical in every Blight. Mages helped stave off the Qunari.

[shepard1038]

The reason is, because Thedas instead of developing technology they rely on magic.

[TEWR]

Which I too take issue with, as a Dwarf. However, Andraste being a Mage does not destroy humanity's spirit simply by being so.

It might render those nations to be more dependent on magic, which yes would be a bad thing if it happened, but that doesn't mean Andraste being a Mage is in and of itself a bad thing.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Also, Mages have actually helped save the world many times over. The Second Blight was repelled only as much as it was when Drakon brought in the Circle Mages to fight alongside him. Mages have been critical in every Blight. Mages helped stave off the Qunari.

As I said, mages already have enough of a spotlight in the games. If you make Andraste a mage, you might as well just have Southern Thedas a magocracy as well. Aparently, mundanes can't do anything without the mages holding their hands.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 février 2013 - 10:18 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Also, Mages have actually helped save the world many times over. The Second Blight was repelled only as much as it was when Drakon brought in the Circle Mages to fight alongside him. Mages have been critical in every Blight. Mages helped stave off the Qunari.

As I said, mages already have enough of a spotlight in the games. If you make Andraste a mage, you might as well just have Southern Thedas a magocracy as well. Aparently, mundanes can't do anything without the mages holding their hands.

Mundanes also get a spotlight. Calenhad, Hafter, Dane, Loghain, Maric, The Golden Prince, The Black Fox, etc.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

The difference lies in the inherent potential for destruction of a mage compared to that of a normal person like you or me.
Common citizens are not allowed to own tanks or raw uranium. Taking it away violates the principle of personal property but it's still done. Why?
Because the owner has been caught using the tank to harm others? Or simply because should the owner one day decide to use the tank for whatever reasons; hey, maybe he caught is wife in bed with another man; the potential for destruction is simply unnaceptable? In this sort of situation, we choose to take pre-emptive action.
The problem being, of course, that in Thedas people are the tanks. Mages are born with that potential for destruction that our own society considers unnaceptable and we can also add demons to the mix.

In this situation; with circunstances that do not match those we face in our world; should we follow our own western views to a fault? I don't believe so.

I don't think that common citizens not being allowed to own tanks or raw uranium is a violation of the principle of personal property so much as a limitation of it.  Personal freedoms are NEVER absolute, in principle or practical application, even when there are arguments to be made that certain specific rights OUGHT to be.  i.e., in the U.S, freedom of speech doesn't mean you can use your freedom to incite panic (the clichéd maxim about yelling fire in a crowded theatre), and it doesn't mean that person A has the right to say whatever they please in person B's house without consequences.  Having the right to listen to whatever radio programs you please or watch whatever t.v. you please does NOT mean you have the right to blare your audio so loud that it annoys the neighbors.  Yet those conditions are not violations of personal freedoms, but limits to said freedoms based on the fact that no given person is free to the extent that they are at liberty to infringe on the freedom of others.

The question of whether or not it's appropriate to apply modern Western values to the world of Thedas is a valid one.  But it's worth pointing out that many of those Western sensibilities are already a part of the intellectual world of Thedas, which strongly implies that they are not out of place.  It was suggested earlier in this thread--and has been elsewhere--that it is inappropriate to talk about genocide within the context of Thedas, because it is a real-world only concept that didn't exist prior to WWII.  However, that concept is explicitly named by Wynne in Origins, so clearly it is a concept that is relevant to the Thedosian world.  The fact also that the very concept of personal freedoms is a part of the world, mentioned by mage and non-mage alike, in reference to mage concerns but also concerns outside the mage/Templar dynamic, also lends credence to this idea. 

MisterJB wrote...

Except most free mages in Tevinter tend to cause grievous harm to their neighbors.  Just not accidentally.  The fear of mages has more basis than simply abominations.

I tried to cover that point, albeit rather vaguely, by acknowledging that Tevinter is not a pleasant place to live.  In any case, nothing you said here invalidates my point that Tevinter, being something other than a smoking ruin that does not have abominations pouring out to terrorize its neighbors, is clearly a stable society despite the fact that mages live freely.  That point stands and you have offered nothing to refute it.  To whit, whether Tevinter is a nice place to live because the mages there live by the philosophy of magic-makes-right, is an entirely separate question from whether Tevinter is a cohesive, stable society due to magic not being tethered to fanatical levels of oversight.  It is necessary to examine both of those issues separately, because the one does not cause the other, and also because the primary argument within the world of Dragon Age is less that mages are inherently inclined toward villainy and oppression, and more that magic is so inherently dangerous that mages are always and forever just a bad day away from raining chaos and destruction on everyone around them.  The former argument does get made, of course, but by and large it's the second one that gets the lion share from people arguing that mages have to be locked up for the greater good.  It's been my experience that the same imbalance is given to both arguments by players of Dragon Age--most people, while using both arguments, give far more attention and weight to the mages-are-walking-bombs idea than the one of power-corrupts.

With that in mind, the question of Tevinter is a very interesting one.  We know that magic is practiced openly and often in the Imperium.  We also know that Tevinter is, again, NOT a smoking ruin, but a stable, functioning society.*  We also know that there is a distinct lack of demons and abominations running loose outside of Tevinter.  That last one is coupled with the fact that due to the nature of magic, the Veil there has to be very, very thin.  So there is one very reasonable conclusion to draw from all this:  The people of Tevinter have developed methods for making sure that magic is controllable.  Based on that, there is every reason to believe that people elsewhere in Thedas can study Tevinter's policies to find ways to apply them to other Circles.  It by NO MEANS has to be a zero-sum game with either/or all-or-nothing conclusions:  in other words there isn't any basis to assume that Ferelden or any other nation can't adapt Tevinter's methods without resorting to the divine, absolute rule of Magisters who are left free to enslave everyone else.  At the very least, Tevinter's open-ended attitude toward magic clearly allows for a level and depth of magical study that would be of great benefit to non-Tevinter Circles if only the Andrastian Chantry would stop suppressing it.

*This of course has nothing to do with how free or NICE that society is to different groups of its citizens.  I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'm spelling out this point because there are always people who do seem to think that Tevinter being a not-nice place to live in cultural terms somehow precludes its society being a stable and well-functioning one.

Yes, that is true. However, by containing all mages in a tower guarded by templars, we reduce their exposure to innocents and increase the speed of templar response. Therefore, should a mage become an abomination, the number of casualties will be much less than should an abomination be born in the middle of a market. And by increasing the chance of punishment, the number of blood mages is also reduced. It's all very logical.

That is logical, but you can make the same argument for many real world situations.  Hell, it HAS been made, many times, in reference to people suffering from certain types of mental illness.  The problem is that applying logical fixes in the name of maximizing security and minimizing risk--that is to say, reducing the whole issue to a mathematical equation, ignores the fact that we're talking about people.  When the method for reaching this min/maxed state requires inhumane methods, there is a problem, and it is not okay to dismiss the people being harmed with this kind of coldhearted logic on the argument that it's okay to dehumanize one group of people for the sake of another.  This kind of response may work, but it won't ever be just, and justice needs to be part of the legal system.  Mages, after all, are citizens, too.  You might remember that it is actually part of the Templars' calling to protect mages as well as protect other people from mages.  Could this not be fairly interpreted to mean that mages have rights that need to be protected just as much as other people need to be protected from the potential destruction mages could cause? 

There's one thing I don't believe I've seen you address either, and that is the fact that when mages are mistreated, they are pushed into becoming the very monsters they're feared of succumbing too.  This is no small thing, and it's worth addressing.  Why lock mages in Circles with all their rights either circumscribed if not completely erased, and be prepared to deal with the abominations and blood magic that will be inevitable as a result of that injustice, when a more fair system WILL to some degree, I argue a considerable one, eliminate much of the danger of those abominations in the first place?

Edited to clarify some points that could easily be misinterpreted.

Modifié par Silfren, 20 février 2013 - 06:46 .

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

Silfren wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that we know some Kirkwall Circle mages were being tortured, raped, made tranquil illegally, and killed, I can see why some mages would turn to blood magic - the only school of magic that can't be nulified by templars.

I can understand why people do a lot of things, but simply having reason to do something does not make it right.

Wait, what? Seriously?

Someone mentions that mages were being tortured, raped, illegally made Tranquil, and even murdered, and your response is that even though this gives mages a reason to use blood magic, it doesn't make it right? You do realize that you're saying precisely that people don't have the right to defend themselves against murder, rape, torture, etc., because you find their means of self-defense distasteful?  Seriously?

Not quite.  I'm saying that simply having reason to take an action does not in and of itself make the action moral.  Also I mention in a later post (my very next one if I remember correctly) that there's a line at which simply being the most effective means no longer justifies something.  The use of blood magic in order to defend themselves from torture, rape, etc. is morally justifiable as long as you restrict it to the people who've actually done you harm or threaten you with harm.  For the record that would be exactly NONE of the mages who turn to blood magic over the course of DA2.

Nevertheless, you said "simply having a reason to do something doesn't make it right" in immediate reply to someone not saying "there are reasons to use blood magic," but specifically listing self-defense against torture, rape, murder, and being made Tranquil as the reason.  So you should hardly be surprised that anyone would interpret that as you saying that self-defense against extreme violence isn't a good reason.  There ARE people in these forums who have said that blood magic is always and only ever wrong, even for self-defense, and that a mage using blood magic in self-defense just proves that they were evil all along, because if they were "truly" virtuous they'd just let themselves be killed before resorting to it, and based on your statement I took you to be in that camp.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
There's one thing I don't believe I've seen you address either, and that is the fact that when mages are mistreated, they are pushed into becoming the very monsters they're feared of succumbing too.  This is no small thing, and it's worth addressing.  Why lock mages in Circles with all their rights either circumscribed if not completely erased, and be prepared to deal with the abominations and blood magic that will be inevitable as a result of that injustice, when a more fair system WILL to some degree, I argue a considerable one, eliminate much of the danger of those abominations in the first place?

I don't have much time on my hands at the moment to properly adress the rest of your points; but rest assured I will do so as soon as I have the time to give them the thought they deserve; so, for now, I'll restrict myself to one where I can extablish my point of view quickly.

It is true that mistreatment of mages by templars can lead them to becoming exactly what we fear they will become. A good example is Alain. I mean, he seems to be a genuinelly good person with a distate for blood magic and regard for human life. Definitely the last mage you'd expect to be dangerous.
And yet, being placed in just about the worst Circle in Thedas where the loonies are running the madhouse on both sides made him desperate enough to actually used blood magic. So, the question of whether the templars are agravating the situation is a valid one.

However, one should not forget that templars are not the only source of desperation in the world. There are countless situations in everyday life that could lead to a mage abusing his or her powers.
For instance, Connor just wanted to save his father. There is not fault in that goal but whereas a mundane child would limit himself to praying and crying, Connor played Make-a-Wish foundation with a demon and threatens to destroy Redcliff.
If having troubleless lives is what is needed for most mages to not be dangerous, that is just unfeasible.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 février 2013 - 11:04 .

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...



Yes as I said Elthina had authourity, but if Meredith ever decided not to do as she was told what can Elthina do?  The Templars obey her but they aren't being asked to act against Meredith directly yet.  Elthina gives them a less severe variant of Meredith's order, not a direct contradiction.

I really don't understand why people always ask this question.  Elthina is the frikkin' Grand Cleric, for Andraste's sake.  It is as much her RESPONSIBILITY to bring Meredith to heel as it is her authority to do so.  If she can't make it happen, there is no reason she cannot appeal to the Divine to step in and remove Meredith herself, or to send Elthina an additional contingent of Templar soldiers so she has the added power to back her authority. 

If Elthina's so incapable of fulfilling the DUTIES of what is her JOB, then she needs to step down in favor of someone who can.  This handwringing that she didn't do anything because she COULDN'T do anything is ridiculous.  The woman didn't even try.

[Reznore57]

People are aware that the Divine wanted to go all Exalted March on Kirkwall?
I'm not sure it would have been really clever for Elthina to mentions that maybe she couldn't control Meredith anymore while rebel mages are all over the place.

And Meredith isn't just your regular Knight Commander , she's the figure of power in Kirkwall.
She overthrow the last knight Commander and the previous Viscount of the city.
Because of her , the templars are known to be the biggest force in town , by act 3 she's even threatening the city guard .
She's also the chick that name you champion .

So it's not a simple matter to remove someone like her when there's a mage uprising threatening.
Attacking Meredith could have been seen as being pro mage , and we saw what happened to the Divine when she did this.
The templars just left the chantry.

The chantry without its templars is just a bunch of old woman.

But mostly I think the solution templars/mages had just ran its course ...
It wasn't working anymore , and if it hadn't blow up in Kirkwall , it would just have happened somewhere else.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

However, one should not forget that templars are not the only source of desperation in the world. There are countless situations in everyday life that could lead to a mage abusing his or her powers.
For instance, Connor just wanted to save his father. There is not fault in that goal but whereas a mundane child would limit himself to praying and crying, Connor played Make-a-Wish foundation with a demon and threatens to destroy Redcliff.
If having troubleless lives is what is needed for most mages to not be dangerous, that is just unfeasible.

Mages will always be dangerous in a sense.  I've never denied this, though I do strongly question the severity of the problem, primarily based on the fact that other societies do apparently have free mages while not also having a constant problem of out-of-control abominations and loose demons. 

I'm not saying that mages won't ever abuse their power.  I'm saying that the potential for this abuse does not justify a Circle system that involves taking children away from their families to essentially become the property and slaves of the Chantry, where their right to see their families depends on the goodwill of the Templars within a given tower, and/or the power of the family in question.  There are failsafes we can put in place to ensure a general, base level of security and safety, while accepting that no method which is humane will ever be entirely foolproof. 

It's not the best analogy, granted, given the difference in potential scale, but off the top of my head I can think of the fact that in the U.S., the right to own guns is pretty damned lenient.  There is no assumption that a person owning a gun will automatically be inclined to use that gun for other purposes than self-defense or hunting game.  Generally speaking, when a legal gun owner DOES use that gun for violent means other than self-defense, there is no assumption that it means that the fact they owned a gun in the first place meant that they should have been locked up where they couldn't hurt anyone. 

Connor's situation is less an example of a mage inadvertently causing harm because mages have access to a special kind of...coping mechanism, that the rest of us can't access even when subjected to the same kind of trauma or merely stressful environment, than an argument for while a mage needs to be educated, but without that education coming at the cost of them being ripped away from their family and losing their inheritance.  It cannot be forgotten that the entire reason behind Connor's lack of training, and lack of understanding about demons, was due to Isolde's shame at the realization her son was a mage, and her fear of losing him to the Chantry for the rest of his life.  If it were NOT a standard practice to engender such fear and shame of mages in the general population--to the extent, mind you, that even many mages have a powerful dose of self-hatred for simply existing--and also a practice to train mages while not cutting them completely away from their family and friends, it's entirely possible that situations like what happened in Redcliffe wouldn't happen.  It was that societally-ingrained fear that resulted in the tragedy in the first place. 

The bottom line is that I am willing to accept that mages can be controlled in a way that is humane toward mages themselves while being adequate in ensuring general safety of the populace.  I am not willing to maximize security to the extent that mages' own rights are destroyed in the name of the greater good, when it is possible to restrict certain freedoms within a certain degree without abolishing them entirely.  It's the difference between living in a society that is reasonably free and reasonably safe for everybody, versus a society that is maximally safe because the freedom of some has been totally excised. 

[dragonflight288]

Etheral Writer Redux wrote.....

snip

Thanks for that evidence. I remembered you bringing it up in the past, but couldn't find it or remember everything in it, but that's where I got it from.

And Meredith isn't just your regular Knight Commander , she's the figure of power in Kirkwall.
She overthrow the last knight Commander and the previous Viscount of the city.
Because of her , the templars are known to be the biggest force in town , by act 3 she's even threatening the city guard .
She's also the chick that name you champion .

But it isn't her responsibility to be so involved in politics to begin with. As Knight-Commander, her responsibilities begin and end with the Circle. It's the noble's who ought to run the city. It's Aveline who should run the guard without practically beating templars out of her office with a stick. Meredith had absolutely no business being involved in the first place.

[Silfren]

Reznore57 wrote...

People are aware that the Divine wanted to go all Exalted March on Kirkwall?
I'm not sure it would have been really clever for Elthina to mentions that maybe she couldn't control Meredith anymore while rebel mages are all over the place.

And Meredith isn't just your regular Knight Commander , she's the figure of power in Kirkwall.
She overthrow the last knight Commander and the previous Viscount of the city.
Because of her , the templars are known to be the biggest force in town , by act 3 she's even threatening the city guard .
She's also the chick that name you champion .

So it's not a simple matter to remove someone like her when there's a mage uprising threatening.
Attacking Meredith could have been seen as being pro mage , and we saw what happened to the Divine when she did this.
The templars just left the chantry.

The chantry without its templars is just a bunch of old woman.

But mostly I think the solution templars/mages had just ran its course ...
It wasn't working anymore , and if it hadn't blow up in Kirkwall , it would just have happened somewhere else.

I don't actually think the Divine would have called for an Exalted March, based on what I know of the character of Justinia from the Leliana DLC from Origins, and the way she was portrayed in Asunder.  But that's neither here nor there, because what I know is, obviously, different from what Elthina and others knew at the time that the threat of an Exalted March was made.  It's worth pointing out, however, that this doesn't happen until late in the game, while the Templers in general and Meredith in particular should have been reined in a lot sooner.  Nothing at all stopped Elthina from exercising her authority or, finding that she needed help, bloody well asking for it form the Divine.

No, it's not a simple matter to just remove someone like Meredith.  But how many times does it have to be pointed out that Elthina. DID. NOT. EVEN. MAKE. THE. ATTEMPT. ??

We do not see that Elthina tried, and failed.  We see her constantly shaking her finger at Meredith and telling the Knight Commander to be a good girl, and nothing more.  So I'm rather sick of people whining that Elthina COULDN'T have done anything when that isn't the issue.  The stupid, useless woman didn't even TRY.  Which means she either was quite fine with the situation--there's actually a lot to be said for the theory that Elthina was a master manipulator--or else she was incompetent. 

Seriously.  Is it because Elthina comes across as a kindly old grandmotherly sort of woman that people have this insane need to defend her failure to act.  I wouldn't hold her responsible for the carnage if she'd actually attempted to, y'know, carry out the duties of her job as the Grand Cleric, but failed because the situation was just that out of control.  But the fact remains that she never even TRIED to exercise her authority.  Why do her supporters think this is commendable?

[Reznore57]

I never said that Meredith having so much power was right.
It's just the way things are...
In Thedas religion is very closed to political power , the qunari are not a nation for example ...

In human society not being andrastian = being banned .
The last viscount of Kirkwall got kick out because he got in trouble with Orlais ,the chantry being closed to Orlais send their templars after him.

Problem is the chantry got big , the templars got out of hands.
Like Cullen mentioned templars used to be viewed as heroes , but years passed people forgot about the imperium ( pretty normal ) and saw the abuse.
Which in the current system just has to happen , you can't ask of men to have empathy for mages and being able to kill them on spot if necessary.
Most people would go bonkers.

So yeah the chantry is nice and everything , but it's normal the templars just got fed up.
At the end of the day they are the one who have to put people down like rabid dogs not the Divine.

Wether we like it or not , mages are a threat .I don't think removing them from society is the way to go .But a "special police " for them will always be needed .

Edit :

About Elthina , removing Meredith from power is a problem early on.
As mentionned , Meredith is an important figure .
By act 3 ; the divine wants an exalted march and Leliana says that everyone is watching Kirkwall....
So it's not just a little thing , like you go to the office , you get fire , bye.
The chantry has appearance to keep .
First years , there's strakhaven circle burning down , and recently the fereldan circle was overrun by abominations.
+ the circle in Kirkwall has to deal with strakahven/ferelden mages .
Keeping in mind that kirkwall always had more blood mage etc than "normal" places.
So...that may not be the moment to fire that woman that keeps everything in check with an iron fist.

Act 2 :The qunari are getting grumpy , again the qunari and the chantry are not on friendly terms .The templars are the biggest army in town.Again not the best moment to fire your best general.
Yeah she's a b**** ,but you need her.

Act3 : well maybe now that things have settled ...arf no...

I'm not saying that Elthina is 100% blameless , but she has the best chantry interest in mind .
Meredith is not the kind of person you fire , it's someone you get assasinated when the opportunity is there.
I don't know Elthina could have blame it on the Carta , nobody cares about dwarves

,

Modifié par Reznore57, 20 février 2013 - 02:05 .

[erilben]

Reznore57 wrote...

People are aware that the Divine wanted to go all Exalted March on Kirkwall?
I'm not sure it would have been really clever for Elthina to mentions that maybe she couldn't control Meredith anymore while rebel mages are all over the place.

So instead she does nothing and then just as Thrask predicted, Meredith starts a war with the mages.

And Meredith isn't just your regular Knight Commander , she's the figure of power in Kirkwall.
She overthrow the last knight Commander and the previous Viscount of the city.
Because of her , the templars are known to be the biggest force in town , by act 3 she's even threatening the city guard .
She's also the chick that name you champion .

That's not what happened. The former viscount arrested and executed the former knight-commander during an attempt to throw the templars out of Kikrwall. Meredith then lead templars against the viscount and captured him. Elthina then tried and imprisoned the viscount, and made Meredith the new knight-commander. Elthina is so helpless isn't she?

[Silfren]

Reznore57 wrote...

I never said that Meredith having so much power was right.
It's just the way things are...
In Thedas religion is very closed to political power , the qunari are not a nation for example ...

No clue what you're trying to say here.  Thedas is closeD to political power?  Or do you mean close to it?  That's true, of course.  Especially in Orlais.  But what does that have to do with the qunari.  For one thing, the qunari ARE religious, and I'm not sure how you can claim that they don't have a nation.  They do.  

Modifié par Silfren, 20 février 2013 - 02:21 .

[Silfren]

Double post, sorry.

Modifié par Silfren, 20 février 2013 - 02:21 .

[Reznore57]

The qunari are not part of a country, like being american , italien whatever ...
It's more like a religion , what i was trying to say is politics and religions are still very mixed up in Thedas.
So saying Meredith can't hold political power in Kirkwall ....she has the biggest army and who's gonna fight the chantry?
I can't imagine the nobility taking arms against the chantry .

Except for Rivain , I can't remember any human nation going against the chantry's will openly.

And sorry if i'm not very clear . :s

[Silfren]

Reznore57 wrote...

The qunari are not part of a country, like being american , italien whatever ...
It's more like a religion , what i was trying to say is politics and religions are still very mixed up in Thedas.
So saying Meredith can't hold political power in Kirkwall ....she has the biggest army and who's gonna fight the chantry?
I can't imagine the nobility taking arms against the chantry .

Except for Rivain , I can't remember any human nation going against the chantry's will openly.

And sorry if i'm not very clear . :s

Well, this verges on being pedantic, but the Qunari are a group of people, not a religion.  The Qun is the religion, the Qunari are the people who follow it.  And they DO have nations, or at least city-states.  One is Par Vollen, the other is Seheron. Offhand I'm not aware of others, but it's not as though the Qunari are a nationless people.  And their religion is VERY highly tied up in their politics.  If anything, qunari religion and politics are even more intertwined than that of Orlais.

What you're missing is that it is the Chantry which sets the laws Meredith is supposed to follow--a Knight Commander being barred from political office is a Chantry dictate, unless I'm mistaken.  So Meredith isn't operating under Chantry jurisdiction by seizing power, she's in direct violation of it.  Therefore it's the Chantry's place to bring her to heel.  Whether the Chantry WOULD intervene is another matter, but given what we know of Divine Justinia, I'm inclined to think the Chantry seat in Orlais would definitely take action upon hearing that one of its own had gone rogue.  But the nobility--and the damned useless Grand Cleric Elthina--have to bring it to her attention first.

[Reznore57]

But it's always assuming templars do what the chantry says.
Which isn't always the case .
And to move someone like Meredith from power , I suppose Seekers should have been involved.
If i remember correctly they 're in charge of templars renegade things.
I know Cassandra could have featured in act 3 , it was cut :



Maybe Elthina did something , but i guess we 'll never know about it.

[Silfren]

Reznore57 wrote...

But it's always assuming templars do what the chantry says.
Which isn't always the case .
And to move someone like Meredith from power , I suppose Seekers should have been involved.
If i remember correctly they 're in charge of templars renegade things.
I know Cassandra could have featured in act 3 , it was cut :



Maybe Elthina did something , but i guess we 'll never know about it.

Well, of course not.  But if Meredith's Templars refuse to do as ordered by Grand Cleric Elthina, that's why Elthina should send word to the Divine, who has her own Templar army to bring to bear on the situation.  It is hardly the case that if one group of Templars are disobeying orders, that the others are going to follow suit.  There's always going to be whole groups of Templars that are not willing to disregard their legal and perceived spiritual obligation to obey their leaders, and Meredith's word does NOT supersede that of the Grand Cleric or the Divine.  If either of them issue commands that counter Meredith's, then that's the way it goes...their word will trump hers every time.  Some Templars may not want to accept that, but many will.  Even within Meredith's own ranks there would be Templars who had a serious problem with a Knight Commander who wanted to flout the orders of HER superiors. 

If the game doesn't provide even a remote hint that Elthina did something, then it didn't happen.  I find it kind of silly to say that maybe somebody did something, but we'll just never know it.  That's now how story writing works.  If she had done something, the writers would provide that information to us in some form, even if only as a hint to provide for speculation.  Cut scenes don't count, because they were cut for a reason.  They're not part of the main game, so they can't be counted as part of the canon story.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Bronto****. 

One could easily still say that the Maker, in all his infinite wisdom, saw that a Mage was the best way to take down the Imperium and chose her to lead the armies. Being a Mage does not nullify all of the other things that make Andraste great.

I'd appreciate it for its irony, especially if it was a triple dose where Andraste wasn't just a Mage, but an OGB and a Somniari Blood Mage. 

Right, what would we poor, defenseless mundanes would do without big strong mages to help us. 

Considering the role mages played in protecting Andrastian lands from the darkspawn in every Blight, as well as the invading Qunari during the New Exalted Marches (and that doesn't even cover their participation in helping create Grey Wardens with the Joining), I'd say the mages helped save civilization as you know it. Without mages, all of Thedas might be serving the Qun (since their magic was more than a match for the advanced technology of the Qunari), or perhaps Thedas might have fallen prey to one of the Archdemons by now.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Also, Mages have actually helped save the world many times over. The Second Blight was repelled only as much as it was when Drakon brought in the Circle Mages to fight alongside him. Mages have been critical in every Blight. Mages helped stave off the Qunari.

As I said, mages already have enough of a spotlight in the games. If you make Andraste a mage, you might as well just have Southern Thedas a magocracy as well. Aparently, mundanes can't do anything without the mages holding their hands.

I can see your point, but the evidence that Andraste was a mage is actually very compelling, and the writers wouldn't put it there if they didn't want the possibility floating around in players' minds, and I gotta say the most compelling aspect of the whole theory, for me, is that this is exactly the kind of ironic twist you'd find in any number of classic stories.

Modifié par Silfren, 20 février 2013 - 08:06 .