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[shepard1038]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Bronto****. 

One could easily still say that the Maker, in all his infinite wisdom, saw that a Mage was the best way to take down the Imperium and chose her to lead the armies. Being a Mage does not nullify all of the other things that make Andraste great.

I'd appreciate it for its irony, especially if it was a triple dose where Andraste wasn't just a Mage, but an OGB and a Somniari Blood Mage. 

Right, what would we poor, defenseless mundanes would do without big strong mages to help us. 

Considering the role mages played in protecting Andrastian lands from the darkspawn in every Blight, as well as the invading Qunari during the New Exalted Marches (and that doesn't even cover their participation in helping create Grey Wardens with the Joining), I'd say the mages helped save civilization as you know it. Without mages, all of Thedas might be serving the Qun (since their magic was more than a match for the advanced technology of the Qunari), or perhaps Thedas might have fallen prey to one of the Archdemons by now.

 No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic. You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

[IanPolaris]

shepard1038 wrote...

 No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic. You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

I don't believe it was claimed that mages made Grey Wardens possible although the process of preparing the joining-blood does seem to involve magic (per Duncan).  However, we do know for a fact that mages have formed an integral part of the Grey Wardens and have gathered together to help fight the blights from the beginning.  So it seems quite reasonable to think that one of the Archdemons may well have 'won' without the help of the mages.  It certainly seems to be more than reasonable (and indeed almost a sure thing) that the Andrastian Forces would have lost to the Qunari without the aid of magic and the circle mages.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

shepard1038 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Right, what would we poor, defenseless mundanes would do without big strong mages to help us. 

Considering the role mages played in protecting Andrastian lands from the darkspawn in every Blight, as well as the invading Qunari during the New Exalted Marches (and that doesn't even cover their participation in helping create Grey Wardens with the Joining), I'd say the mages helped save civilization as you know it. Without mages, all of Thedas might be serving the Qun (since their magic was more than a match for the advanced technology of the Qunari), or perhaps Thedas might have fallen prey to one of the Archdemons by now. 

No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic.

The Joining Ritual requires the darkspawn blood to be magically treated by mages, and unless you're arguing that there's an infinite supply of Archdemon blood, then mages are certainly necessary for the Joining Ritual.

Also, Andrastian society corrals mages into Circle Towers, and vilifies magic. You might want to try an argument that doesn't immediately fall apart under scrutiny.

shepard1038 wrote...

You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

The Qunari make use of mages.

[shepard1038]

IanPolaris wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

 No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic. You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

I don't believe it was claimed that mages made Grey Wardens possible although the process of preparing the joining-blood does seem to involve magic (per Duncan).  However, we do know for a fact that mages have formed an integral part of the Grey Wardens and have gathered together to help fight the blights from the beginning.  So it seems quite reasonable to think that one of the Archdemons may well have 'won' without the help of the mages.  It certainly seems to be more than reasonable (and indeed almost a sure thing) that the Andrastian Forces would have lost to the Qunari without the aid of magic and the circle mages.

-Polaris

The thing is that the darkspawn blood doesn't have enough taint so it has to be magically treated, but Archdemon blood has enough taint so the Archdemon blood doesn't have to be magically treated. Yes, Mages have played an integral part i don't deny that, after all the Grey Wardens need Templars and Mages to combat darkspawns that use magic, but they need warriors and archers too to fight the darkspawn. So Mages shouldn't get all the credit.
I know i don't deny that. It is the magic dependability that Thedas relies on that i think is bad, magic dependability isn't bad, but if it is at the cost of technological advancement it is. Everytime there is a naval battle and the enemy has cannons and for you to win you have to bring mages to fight cannon fire with fireballs is troublesome.

[dragonflight288]

shepard1038 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

 No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic. You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

I don't believe it was claimed that mages made Grey Wardens possible although the process of preparing the joining-blood does seem to involve magic (per Duncan).  However, we do know for a fact that mages have formed an integral part of the Grey Wardens and have gathered together to help fight the blights from the beginning.  So it seems quite reasonable to think that one of the Archdemons may well have 'won' without the help of the mages.  It certainly seems to be more than reasonable (and indeed almost a sure thing) that the Andrastian Forces would have lost to the Qunari without the aid of magic and the circle mages.

-Polaris

The thing is that the darkspawn blood doesn't have enough taint so it has to be magically treated, but Archdemon blood has enough taint so the Archdemon blood doesn't have to be magically treated. Yes, Mages have played an integral part i don't deny that, after all the Grey Wardens need Templars and Mages to combat darkspawns that use magic, but they need warriors and archers too to fight the darkspawn. So Mages shouldn't get all the credit.
I know i don't deny that. It is the magic dependability that Thedas relies on that i think is bad, magic dependability isn't bad, but if it is at the cost of technological advancement it is. Everytime there is a naval battle and the enemy has cannons and for you to win you have to bring mages to fight cannon fire with fireballs is troublesome.

I honestly don't think Thedas, save for Tevinter, is magically dependent. Many go out of their way to avoid having magic in their lives at all. Ser Perth in Redcliff outright states he doesn't approve of magic and its kind. He then goes on to say that the symbols of the chantry are holy and blessed by the Maker. He makes it quite clear that he'd rather have some useless trinkets with the Chantry symbol on them than magical amulets that may actually help.

Ser Bryant, who I think is pretty cool, says that they have more than swords to battle mages. He says templars have "Maker given powers to battle unholy magics." It's as if magic, in and of itself, is unholy and cursed, regardless of what Gregoire says about it also being a gift. The Revered Mother of Redcliff tells Amell that the Chantry sometimes incites the commoners into mobs against mages.

Wynne talks about how sometimes a mage child is discovered, and is then killed in a riot by anti-magic peasants who blame the child for a still-birth, a bad crop, or even a cow dying of something equally ridiculous.

It's written somewhere that the Chantry goes out of its way to prevent anatomical study and medicinal study as it's strongly tied into magic, and thus is rooted out wherever it's found.

Thedas doesn't have an overdependence on magic. They have such a fear and loathing of what magic represents from their time subjugated by Tevinter and a severe paranoia of abominations and blood mages, that they actually go out of their way to demonize mages and magic to the point that technology and regular research can't advance because.....it's magic or thought to be magic.

[shepard1038]

LobselVith8 wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Right, what would we poor, defenseless mundanes would do without big strong mages to help us. 

Considering the role mages played in protecting Andrastian lands from the darkspawn in every Blight, as well as the invading Qunari during the New Exalted Marches (and that doesn't even cover their participation in helping create Grey Wardens with the Joining), I'd say the mages helped save civilization as you know it. Without mages, all of Thedas might be serving the Qun (since their magic was more than a match for the advanced technology of the Qunari), or perhaps Thedas might have fallen prey to one of the Archdemons by now. 

No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic.

The Joining Ritual requires the darkspawn blood to be magically treated by mages, and unless you're arguing that there's an infinite supply of Archdemon blood, then mages are certainly necessary for the Joining Ritual.
Also Andrastian society corrals mages into Circle Towers, and vilifies magic. You might want to try an argument that doesn't immediately fall apart under scrutiny.

shepard1038 wrote...

You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

The Qunari make use of mages.

It only takes a drop of Archdemon blood. It isn't a necessity at most you have less Grey Wardens. So? That didn't stop the Chantry from depending on Mages to win against the Qunari or the Grey Wardens recruiting Mages and helping defeat defeat the blight.

You say the Andrastian society corrals Mages and villifies Magic where the Qunari keep Mages on leashes and their hatred for Magic was the reason they chose to develop technology.

The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the Qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes... and none of the Qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle's mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed.

Modifié par shepard1038, 21 février 2013 - 02:26 .

[IanPolaris]

shepard1038 wrote...

The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the Qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes... and none of the Qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle's mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed.

Yes which makes the Chantry seem transparent and hypocritical.  Mages are to be villified and locked away unless they are actually useful.  The Qunari for all their unfortunate and wrongheaded ideas about magic are at least consistant about it.  As for the Qunari feeling tht mages are little more than animals, actually we have learned that this isn't entirely true.

I would also point out with Qunari magic that that was then and this is now, and if DA2 and recent Imperial/Qunari fights are any indication, the qualify of the Qunari Sarabaas is much higher and they can wield much stronger magics than they could during the exalted marches a couple of centuries ago.....and Qunari tech is still vastly superior.

In short, the Qunari are smart enough (despite their institutional and wrongheaded fear towards magic) to improve the training and quality of their mages, while the Chantry wants to pretend the Qunari will go away and it doesn't even occure to them to treat their "ace in the hole" with a little decency.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  My longwinded point was just because the Chantry villifies magic does NOT mean that it automatically embraces technology.  In fact we KNOW in the case of medicine that the Chantry activily retards any research (magical and mundane alike) out of fear of bloodmagic.  The Qunari aren't a fearful philosophy normally so it makes sense that there would be more technological developement.  Their (Qunari) fear of magic is actually not in keeping with the rest of their philosophy and most Kossith (in particular) are actually irrational when it comes to their fear of magic if you press them on it (see convo with Aarvaraad in DA2).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 février 2013 - 03:27 .

[TEWR]

shepard1038 wrote...
No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.

Mages do help create the Joining. Duncan confirms this at Ostagar, which at least points to the Circle Mages having some knowledge of the Joining's secrets. 

One should also note that the Joining's effects are a form of blood magic.

Well Thedas relies on magic. You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

The Qunari make use of their Mages, and have actually had them train to be even more deadly in combat then they used to be. Even so, their Mages were no slouches despite how Thedas' Mages were far more powerful.

The Qunari first thundered into Kirkwall in 7:56 Storm during the last of the New Exalted Marches.

The collected nations of Thedas were attempting to drive the Qunari from the northern mainland once and for all. Qunari armies were on the retreat, but in a desperate gambit, their fleet circled around Amaranthine coast and landed a great force near the Marcher city of Ostwick. Their plan was to overwhelm the Marcher cities of Starkhaven and Kirkwall, Starkhaven to block the roads leading north and Kirkwall to block ships on the waking sea coming from Orlais, all in an effort to deny the supplies to the Thedas armies assaultingRivain. The attack on Starkhaven eventually failed, but Kirkwall was attacked in a daring night raid where the Qunari used their leashed saarebas mages in an unprecedented display of sorcery. The walls were torn down and the city was taken, and for the next four years, Kirkwall endured the most brutal occupation in its history

And as we see in DAII, their Mages have become even more powerful. As for treating them like animals, the Arishok's remarks towards Saarebas as well as the codex on Saarebas themselves tells us that the Qunari Mages are pitied and honored for embodying the very challenges a Qunari in Qunari society faces.

They may do things to the Mages that are barbaric -- sewing the mouths shut, which doesn't really prevent them from speaking -- but they at least offer them respect. Saarebas are even capable of becoming Ben-Hassrath, per Mary Kirby.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 février 2013 - 04:19 .

[Silfren]

shepard1038 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Bronto****. 

One could easily still say that the Maker, in all his infinite wisdom, saw that a Mage was the best way to take down the Imperium and chose her to lead the armies. Being a Mage does not nullify all of the other things that make Andraste great.

I'd appreciate it for its irony, especially if it was a triple dose where Andraste wasn't just a Mage, but an OGB and a Somniari Blood Mage. 

Right, what would we poor, defenseless mundanes would do without big strong mages to help us. 

Considering the role mages played in protecting Andrastian lands from the darkspawn in every Blight, as well as the invading Qunari during the New Exalted Marches (and that doesn't even cover their participation in helping create Grey Wardens with the Joining), I'd say the mages helped save civilization as you know it. Without mages, all of Thedas might be serving the Qun (since their magic was more than a match for the advanced technology of the Qunari), or perhaps Thedas might have fallen prey to one of the Archdemons by now.

 No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic. You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

The Qunari may hate magic, but they do indeed make use of their mages as weapons of war.  This is irrefutable.

And I think that magic is actually used for the Joining, regardless of whether the blood used comes from an archdemon or darkspawn.  Duncan says quite plainly during Ostagar, "I've had the Circle mages preparing" in reference to the Joining.  Anyway, is it ever said whether Duncan had access to archdemon blood or had to settle for darkspawn? I actually thought BOTH were used, rather than one or the other. 

Even so, I was under the impression that what made the Joining ritual create Wardens, as opposed to just infecting people with the Blight disease, was the magical element.  Is there any documentation about the ritual that spells this out? 

What you're missing, nevertheless, is that even if magic is only necessary for the Joining when archdemon blood itself is not available...er, well, that still means that mages are necessary, don't you think, for those times when archdemon blood ISN'T handy? 

[Plaintiff]

shepard1038 wrote...
 No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic. You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

Thedas doesn't rely on magic. In fact the exact opposite is true. The Chantry limits the use of magic to an extreme degree, and the general consensus among the population (outside of Tevinter) is that magic and mages suck.

There's nothing stopping them from developing to the same technological level as the Qunari, except their own laziness, apathy, and no access to decent education. Which, like most things wrong with Thedas, is most likely the fault of the Chantry and ruling classes.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 février 2013 - 05:34 .

[Silfren]

shepard1038 wrote...
 Yes, Mages have played an integral part i don't deny that, after all the Grey Wardens need Templars and Mages to combat darkspawns that use magic, but they need warriors and archers too to fight the darkspawn. So Mages shouldn't get all the credit.

*scoffs* We're not saying that mages should get all the credit. But it's a point of lore within the story of Dragon Age that mages very often turn the tide of war in favor of their allies, only to be shoved back into their Circle prisons as soon as their help is no longer needed.  Clearly mages don't get ENOUGH credit for the benefit they provide. 

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...
 No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic. You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

Thedas doesn't rely on magic. In fact the exact opposite is true. The Chantry limits the use of magic to an extreme degree, and the general consensus among the population (outside of Tevinter) is that magic and mages suck.

There's nothing stopping them from developing to the same technological level as the Qunari, except their own laziness, apathy, and no access to decent education. Which, like most things wrong with Thedas, is most likely the fault of the Chantry and ruling classes.

There's one epilogue slide at the end of Origins that I wish had been universal no matter the choices made by the player--the one where Anora decides to fund the creation of a university.  It would have been interesting to see that plot developed for future games. 

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They may do things to the Mages that are barbaric -- sewing the mouths shut, which doesn't really prevent them from speaking -- but they at least offer them respect. Saarebas are even capable of becoming Ben-Hassrath, per Mary Kirby.

I'm still trying to figure out how Saarebas manage to eat and drink.  Is there some poor shmuck within Qunari society whose purpose is to mash food into a soup consistency and feed them?

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...
 No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic. You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

Thedas doesn't rely on magic. In fact the exact opposite is true. The Chantry limits the use of magic to an extreme degree, and the general consensus among the population (outside of Tevinter) is that magic and mages suck.

There's nothing stopping them from developing to the same technological level as the Qunari, except their own laziness, apathy, and no access to decent education. Which, like most things wrong with Thedas, is most likely the fault of the Chantry and ruling classes.

There's one epilogue slide at the end of Origins that I wish had been universal no matter the choices made by the player--the one where Anora decides to fund the creation of a university.  It would have been interesting to see that plot developed for future games. 

Well, I think you'd be waiting a long time to see any significant change. I suspect that admittance at the University would be restricted to the nobility, or at best, anyone who could afford to attend. Even if it were free, most people in Ferelden simply don't have the time, they barely scrape by as it is.

If the games were to span many decades, you might see Ferelden start to become more advanced, but first one or more noblemen would have to give enough of a crap about the peasantry to invent some things that would make their day-to-day lives much easier.

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They may do things to the Mages that are barbaric -- sewing the mouths shut, which doesn't really prevent them from speaking -- but they at least offer them respect. Saarebas are even capable of becoming Ben-Hassrath, per Mary Kirby.

I'm still trying to figure out how Saarebas manage to eat and drink.  Is there some poor shmuck within Qunari society whose purpose is to mash food into a soup consistency and feed them?

Straws are a core principle of the Qun.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...
 No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic. You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

Thedas doesn't rely on magic. In fact the exact opposite is true. The Chantry limits the use of magic to an extreme degree, and the general consensus among the population (outside of Tevinter) is that magic and mages suck.

There's nothing stopping them from developing to the same technological level as the Qunari, except their own laziness, apathy, and no access to decent education. Which, like most things wrong with Thedas, is most likely the fault of the Chantry and ruling classes.

There's one epilogue slide at the end of Origins that I wish had been universal no matter the choices made by the player--the one where Anora decides to fund the creation of a university.  It would have been interesting to see that plot developed for future games. 

Well, I think you'd be waiting a long time to see any significant change. I suspect that admittance at the University would be restricted to the nobility, or at best, anyone who could afford to attend. Even if it were free, most people in Ferelden simply don't have the time, they barely scrape by as it is.

If the games were to span many decades, you might see Ferelden start to become more advanced, but first one or more noblemen would have to give enough of a crap about the peasantry to invent some things that would make their day-to-day lives much easier.

I'm disinclined to think in Ferelden that a university would be limited to the nobility, though of course it's true that it would likely be the well-to-do who could attend, at least in early stages. But I don't think it would be officially off-limits to anyone.  Even so, I hardly think that the formation of a university would be inconsequential.  Remember, Thedas more assuredly and very emphatically is NOT synonymous with the real world middle ages.  Ferelden in particular is markedly progressive in various respects.  With either (hardened) Alistair or Anora, but especially the latter at the helm, I think we could see a marked effort from the monarchy to advance Ferelden.  I think a shrewd leader like Anora would easily see the benefit gained from an educated populace in gaining ground with Orlais, and also fortifying itself against the Qunari.

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...
I'm disinclined to think in Ferelden that a university would be limited to the nobility, though of course it's true that it would likely be the well-to-do who could attend, at least in early stages. But I don't think it would be officially off-limits to anyone.  Even so, I hardly think that the formation of a university would be inconsequential.  Remember, Thedas more assuredly and very emphatically is NOT synonymous with the real world middle ages.  Ferelden in particular is markedly progressive in various respects.  With either (hardened) Alistair or Anora, but especially the latter at the helm, I think we could see a marked effort from the monarchy to advance Ferelden.  I think a shrewd leader like Anora would easily see the benefit gained from an educated populace in gaining ground with Orlais, and also fortifying itself against the Qunari.

Well, I wasn't comparing it to the middle ages, I was basing my assessment purely on what I saw in the game.

Anora does not strike me as the sort of person who's interested in elevating the status of the downtrodden. The status of Ferelden as a world power, perhaps, but I wouldn't be looking to her for any revolutionary societal reform within the actual borders of the country.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I'm disinclined to think in Ferelden that a university would be limited to the nobility, though of course it's true that it would likely be the well-to-do who could attend, at least in early stages. But I don't think it would be officially off-limits to anyone.  Even so, I hardly think that the formation of a university would be inconsequential.  Remember, Thedas more assuredly and very emphatically is NOT synonymous with the real world middle ages.  Ferelden in particular is markedly progressive in various respects.  With either (hardened) Alistair or Anora, but especially the latter at the helm, I think we could see a marked effort from the monarchy to advance Ferelden.  I think a shrewd leader like Anora would easily see the benefit gained from an educated populace in gaining ground with Orlais, and also fortifying itself against the Qunari.

Well, I wasn't comparing it to the middle ages, I was basing my assessment purely on what I saw in the game.

Anora does not strike me as the sort of person who's interested in elevating the status of the downtrodden. The status of Ferelden as a world power, perhaps, but I wouldn't be looking to her for any revolutionary societal reform within the actual borders of the country.

I don't see Anora as actively interested in elevating the common folk to the extent that she'd put it at the top of her to-do list, but I doubt she'd be opposed to the idea. Anora isn't a revolutionary for the downtrodden, but I think her response to the needs of the peasantry would be decidedly more progressive than "Let them eat cake!" 

See, I think the very fact that she wants to fund a university in the first place speaks volumes about her vision for Ferelden.  And I'm not trying to suggest that I think the creation of a university means that I think you'd see flocks of working class peasants swarming through its doors.  But the existence of a university at all strikes me as progressive.  It's a step up from zero, here. 

I just think it's an interesting plot line that's unfortunately going to probably be disregarded since it only happened on one outcome.

[IanPolaris]

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...
 No, they didn't helped create the Grey Wardens with the Joining. Archdemon blood is typically used, but darkspawn blood can be used if magically treated, but it isn't necessary if you have Archdemon blood.
Well Thedas relies on magic. You mention the Qunari but they hate magic, that was one of the reasons why they chose to develop advanced technology.

Thedas doesn't rely on magic. In fact the exact opposite is true. The Chantry limits the use of magic to an extreme degree, and the general consensus among the population (outside of Tevinter) is that magic and mages suck.

There's nothing stopping them from developing to the same technological level as the Qunari, except their own laziness, apathy, and no access to decent education. Which, like most things wrong with Thedas, is most likely the fault of the Chantry and ruling classes.

There's one epilogue slide at the end of Origins that I wish had been universal no matter the choices made by the player--the one where Anora decides to fund the creation of a university.  It would have been interesting to see that plot developed for future games. 

Well, I think you'd be waiting a long time to see any significant change. I suspect that admittance at the University would be restricted to the nobility, or at best, anyone who could afford to attend. Even if it were free, most people in Ferelden simply don't have the time, they barely scrape by as it is.

If the games were to span many decades, you might see Ferelden start to become more advanced, but first one or more noblemen would have to give enough of a crap about the peasantry to invent some things that would make their day-to-day lives much easier.

Actually if we go by real life counterparts (and in this case I think we can), Universities even at their earliest stages were never restricted to the noblility.  Indeed a university education was one you might expect in the late middle-ages/early rennaissance for a failed noble.  Tuition and fees while out of reach of the mass peasentry wasn't all that exorbitant either.  Historically, universities grew out of a need to educate more and more clergy for the church, and the Roman Catholic Church for all it's faults never restricted to priesthood to the nobility (although high office in the church effectively was noble only).

Even at their earlierst stages, and certainly after the invention/introduction of the printing press, Universities were always considered bastions for radical/progressive/liberal thought (and yes Anora would know this).  They also were highly prestigious and attracted a great deal of commerce and thus MONEY.  This was the real reason why Rennassance Royal Families fell over themselves to help sponser various universities during the Rennaisance (even reactionary nobles).

Getting back to Thedas/Fereldan, all this indicates is that a hardened Alistair is a moderal progressive Ruler and Anora is a hardnosed practical one.  Anora is almost a dead ringer (in terms of personality, temprement, and ruling theme) to England's Queen Elizabeth I, and  (hardened) Alistair reminds me somewhat of Peter the Great of Russia.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 février 2013 - 07:28 .

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

I'm disinclined to think in Ferelden that a university would be limited to the nobility, though of course it's true that it would likely be the well-to-do who could attend, at least in early stages. But I don't think it would be officially off-limits to anyone. Even so, I hardly think that the formation of a university would be inconsequential. Remember, Thedas more assuredly and very emphatically is NOT synonymous with the real world middle ages. Ferelden in particular is markedly progressive in various respects. With either (hardened) Alistair or Anora, but especially the latter at the helm, I think we could see a marked effort from the monarchy to advance Ferelden. I think a shrewd leader like Anora would easily see the benefit gained from an educated populace in gaining ground with Orlais, and also fortifying itself against the Qunari.

It should be noted that Orlais apparently has a university itself that teaches some things the Chantry really doesn't like.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'm disinclined to think in Ferelden that a university would be limited to the nobility, though of course it's true that it would likely be the well-to-do who could attend, at least in early stages. But I don't think it would be officially off-limits to anyone. Even so, I hardly think that the formation of a university would be inconsequential. Remember, Thedas more assuredly and very emphatically is NOT synonymous with the real world middle ages. Ferelden in particular is markedly progressive in various respects. With either (hardened) Alistair or Anora, but especially the latter at the helm, I think we could see a marked effort from the monarchy to advance Ferelden. I think a shrewd leader like Anora would easily see the benefit gained from an educated populace in gaining ground with Orlais, and also fortifying itself against the Qunari.

It should be noted that Orlais apparently has a university itself that teaches some things the Chantry really doesn't like.

I knew Orlais had its own university (which is undoubtedly Anora's motivation for creating one in Ferelden--she's aware of the advantage it would provide) but I didn't know about the Chantry taking issue with it, although that doesn't surprise me in the least, and it just illustrates the difference a secular institution of education could make for Ferelden's future. 

Plus, OMG the story possibilities.  The Chantry dislikes the Orlesian university, and now it sees one being formed in Ferelden?  QUEL HORREUR!  TIME FOR ANOTHER EXALTED MARCH!

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering the role mages played in protecting Andrastian lands from the darkspawn in every Blight, as well as the invading Qunari during the New Exalted Marches (and that doesn't even cover their participation in helping create Grey Wardens with the Joining), I'd say the mages helped save civilization as you know it. Without mages, all of Thedas might be serving the Qun (since their magic was more than a match for the advanced technology of the Qunari), or perhaps Thedas might have fallen prey to one of the Archdemons by now.

Say, Aldenon who you are so fond of was a mage who fought against the Chantry. This mage rebellion is being lead by mages. When you play Dragon Age 2, you prefer to play as a mage because Hawke "is the leader apostates have waited for". Is it not worthier to save the Alienage as a City Elf rather than a Human Noble?
The exactly same thing applies to Andraste's rebellion. If Andraste was a mundane, it becomes an edifying tale of a people who rebelled against the opressors who considered them worthless simply for being born without magic and won their freedom.

If Andraste was a mage, then it's just another story of how mundanes can't seem to survive without mages there. Mages built the civilization of Tevinter and enslaved non-mages until a good mage finally came along and gave them a hand.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering the role mages played in protecting Andrastian lands from the darkspawn in every Blight, as well as the invading Qunari during the New Exalted Marches (and that doesn't even cover their participation in helping create Grey Wardens with the Joining), I'd say the mages helped save civilization as you know it. Without mages, all of Thedas might be serving the Qun (since their magic was more than a match for the advanced technology of the Qunari), or perhaps Thedas might have fallen prey to one of the Archdemons by now.

Say, Aldenon who you are so fond of was a mage who fought against the Chantry. This mage rebellion is being lead by mages. When you play Dragon Age 2, you prefer to play as a mage because Hawke "is the leader apostates have waited for". Is it not worthier to save the Alienage as a City Elf rather than a Human Noble?
The exactly same thing applies to Andraste's rebellion. If Andraste was a mundane, it becomes an edifying tale of a people who rebelled against the opressors who considered them worthless simply for being born without magic and won their freedom.

If Andraste was a mage, then it's just another story of how mundanes can't seem to survive without mages there. Mages built the civilization of Tevinter and enslaved non-mages until a good mage finally came along and gave them a hand.

Some things simply have to be accepted as they are. And it doesnt really matter if a mage or mundane does the deed. Does it really matter ?

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering the role mages played in protecting Andrastian lands from the darkspawn in every Blight, as well as the invading Qunari during the New Exalted Marches (and that doesn't even cover their participation in helping create Grey Wardens with the Joining), I'd say the mages helped save civilization as you know it. Without mages, all of Thedas might be serving the Qun (since their magic was more than a match for the advanced technology of the Qunari), or perhaps Thedas might have fallen prey to one of the Archdemons by now.

Say, Aldenon who you are so fond of was a mage who fought against the Chantry. This mage rebellion is being lead by mages. When you play Dragon Age 2, you prefer to play as a mage because Hawke "is the leader apostates have waited for". Is it not worthier to save the Alienage as a City Elf rather than a Human Noble?
The exactly same thing applies to Andraste's rebellion. If Andraste was a mundane, it becomes an edifying tale of a people who rebelled against the opressors who considered them worthless simply for being born without magic and won their freedom.

If Andraste was a mage, then it's just another story of how mundanes can't seem to survive without mages there. Mages built the civilization of Tevinter and enslaved non-mages until a good mage finally came along and gave them a hand.

That's one viewpoint, but I don't see it that way. I see the possibility of Andraste being a mage as an example of 'people with great potential may step down and help their fellow man.'

Most tales of Robin Hood is that he was a nobleman before he became an outlaw, yet he stole from the rich and other nobles.

If Andraste was a mage, and she led a rebellion against other mages, it may be viewed like Robin Hood is viewed today. As a great hero, someone who cared about the downtrodden.

And besides....there's enough lore in the codexes to say in all confidence that without mages, mundanes wouldn't survive. They'd have been conquered by the Qunari without mages, and that's made very clear, or they would have been swallowed up by the blight and be Archdemon snacks. Duncan says the Circle prepares the joining. Alistair says he knows the joining is very difficult to prepare and that lyrium is involved. By using archdemon and darkspawn blood as a component of the joining, under the Chantry's own rules that qualifies as blood magic, but without that bit of blood magic, the blights would never be stopped.

If anything, if Andraste was a mage, I think the White Chantry would do everything they could to cover it up (if they knew about it.) It's not impossible for the Maker's bride and prophet to also be a mage. In the end, all it would signify was that (and there were no Circle's or templars in Andraste's day, so she wouldn't have been locked up unless she was a slave) the Maker heard a mage singing, fell in love with the already married woman, and her plea to have him return moved him to aid someone who just happened to be a mage, and she went on to free everyone else in the Southern Continant.

I don't think of people in demographics. I think of them as individuals. With freedom comes responsibility, and that means individuals are responsible for their own actions, and must be held accountable for their actions. If Andraste was a mage, that speaks for Andraste being a mage, and makes the chantry complete and total hypocrites for their treatment of mages but still revering Andraste. If she's not a mage, the Chantry's treatment of mages is still abhorrent. But individual mages who become criminals must also be brought to justice, and those who are innocent should not be punished for the crimes of others.

That's the long and short of my own opinion.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering the role mages played in protecting Andrastian lands from the darkspawn in every Blight, as well as the invading Qunari during the New Exalted Marches (and that doesn't even cover their participation in helping create Grey Wardens with the Joining), I'd say the mages helped save civilization as you know it. Without mages, all of Thedas might be serving the Qun (since their magic was more than a match for the advanced technology of the Qunari), or perhaps Thedas might have fallen prey to one of the Archdemons by now.

Say, Aldenon who you are so fond of was a mage who fought against the Chantry. This mage rebellion is being lead by mages. When you play Dragon Age 2, you prefer to play as a mage because Hawke "is the leader apostates have waited for". Is it not worthier to save the Alienage as a City Elf rather than a Human Noble?
The exactly same thing applies to Andraste's rebellion. If Andraste was a mundane, it becomes an edifying tale of a people who rebelled against the opressors who considered them worthless simply for being born without magic and won their freedom.

If Andraste was a mage, then it's just another story of how mundanes can't seem to survive without mages there. Mages built the civilization of Tevinter and enslaved non-mages until a good mage finally came along and gave them a hand.

Well, it's NOT just another story about mundanes not being able to live without mages.  There's several other ramifications of that possibility. 

For one thing, the Chantry's most well-known maxim on the subject of mages, "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him," is ascribed as being a quote from Andraste herself, and has a markedly different significance to come from someone who was a mage herself rather than a mundane fighting against magic.

If Andraste was a mage, the tale of her struggle against the Imperium illustrates simply that not all mages subscribe to the belief that magic should determine a person's right to subjugate others, and it demonstrates that the struggle was NOT against magic itself, but against tyranny.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 février 2013 - 02:58 .