523 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Connor should be held accountable. An ailing family member isn't exactly a rare situation, and he resulted in quite a lot of death and mutilated quite a lot of people (cutting off the ears of elves and feeding them to mabari).

But no, if he is saved from the demon he doesn't go to trial, he is protected and goes to the Circle. Talk about getting off easy.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I still don't see how the Dalish are mage supremacists in any way. They believed that at one point they once were all mages, and while their Keepers are guides and leaders, that doesn't mean it's because magic in and of itself gives them the right to rule. It's the belief that Keepers are descended from their nobles.

What gives them the right to rule is irrelevant. The fact remains that only mages may be assigned to the position of supreme authority.
That makes the dalish a mage supremacist society.

I have to play Mark of the Assassin again to see if that's truly implied or not....maybe you could point out where in the DLC it's in?

I'll direct you to the thread I made on the subject.
http://social.biowar.../index/15570121

Rivain also allow their seers to be willingly possessed by a variety of spirits, the codex doesn't say demons, and the mundanes believed in those traditions so strongly that they resisted the Chantry when the seers were to be locked up. Until we actually meet one of these seers (hopefully as a companion in Inquisition) I can't say if they're possessed by demons or by a spirit of whatever virtue.

But when you say all abominations need to be held accountable for their actions, do you also refer to Connor, the untrained mage who desperately wanted to save his father? Or mages like Wynne who don't hurt anyone?

I am quite sure I once read that Abomination of Rage and the such happen in Rivain and the rivaini simply accept it as a "fact of life" altough I can't find it now.
And I believe this is an incorrect attitude. Mages should be held accountable for their actions; especially if they are allowing themselves to be possessed; and precautions should be take to minimize the risk of possession.
We should no more accept Abominations than we accept flesh eating diseases.

[DPSSOC]

dragonflight288 wrote...
And what is it about human nature that would prevent people from living and working together if some are mages and most are not?

The part of human nature that has us set up hierarchies.  Put a group of people together, randomly selected making sure they've never met one another before, and tell them to work together on a project.  Inevitably a hierarchy is going to form, you're going to have one or more people who want to be in charge and they'll battle it out in some way until they've decided who's in charge, who's under them, and so on.  It isn't something we do conciously but it's something we all do.

This part of our nature is why equality is not the natural order of things, it needs to be imposed and enforced because we aren't all equal.  It's easier now irl because technology is the great equalizer, with the right tools I can do a job just as well as someone 10 times stronger than me.  However nothing is ever going to bridge the gap between mundanes and mages, magic is just capable of too much that technology isn't, so mages and mundanes are never going to be "equal."

Maybe it can hold for a couple generations, but eventually the mages are going to realize that the mundanes are not their equals and they won't treat them like they are.  Similarily mundanes are going to realize it too, and attempt to get an upper hand before the mages catch on.

It's like the X Men, no matter how much we might like Xavier's philosophy, we know Magneto's right.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

I can't. I'm not trying to be evasive, it realistically can't be done. Human nature prevents coexistance. You might as well ask me to make fire drinkable.
Mundanes and mages live together in Tevinter. Is that acceptable? I hope not.

I can propose a more lenient Circle system but it would still involve segregation.

Thedas isn't Earth, mages don't exist, blah blah blah, but you know, I wonder how you came to such a hugely negative perspective of people. 

Human nature allows for co-existence just fine.  Yes, humanity is rife with xenophobic individuals, and xenophobic cultures in general, and it's given us everything from Jim Crow laws to Hitler. 

But there's plenty of people in the world who manage to co-exist with their neighbors just fine, and history has just as many examples as it does of this better side of humanity as it does its darker side.  Certainly I've seen nothing in real world events that would convince me that co-existence is such anathema to human nature that it's not even worth trying!

[DPSSOC]

Silfren, if you haven't already I highly recommend reading Thomas Hobbes; Leviathan, particular his thoughts on the State of Nature. He outlines rather nicely that coexistence in society is motivated by selfishness and convenience more than any upstanding virtue. You may disagree but it's still a good read.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Common enemies have a way of uniting people but such alliances don't last long. Humans and elves fought together to free themselves from the Imperium and three centuries later, one side had destroyed the other. Orlais has aided Nevarra to defend its land from the Darkspawn, proceeding to occupy said land after the Archdemon had been destroyed.
Thrask's little group is unique only in that they weren't even able to cooperate long enough to take down the common enemy.

Dalish: Mage supremacist and authoritarian society.

Chasind: We know little of. We are told they have shamans but so have we and there is no magic in our world. "Mark of the Assassin" implies they break their mages to make them innofensive.

Rivain: Another land we know little of. They have a Circle and a strong Qunari presence which leads me to believe it is no haven for mages.
We have been told they revere hedge witches but I actually find that concerning because we have also been told they see abominations as "natural accidents". Abominations are not natural accidents, they are the conscient acts of sentient creatures who should be held responsible for their actions and against who should be taken precautions. Not simply "accept it as a fact of life."

I think you're applying an extremely loose definition of supremacist to say the Dalish have such a society.  As for Rivain, the lore we have is conflicting, and I'd love personally to see what actually does on there.  They're said to have a strong qunari presence, and a Circle, but then we're also told that Rivain refuses Chantry encroachment specifically because of its culture surrounding its mages, and its refusal to have them taken away.  I've never heard of abominations being called natural accidents, but we do have a codex that says Rivaini seers allow themselves to become possessed deliberately.  With all this seemingly contrary information, there's no way of knowing just what Rivain's mage culture is like, but the bulk of the evidence actually does suggest that its a mage haven. 

Perhaps the qunari philosophy has undergone a significant shift in Rivain.  It's quite plausible.

Point of contention: abominations are not SOLELY and ALWAYS the result of a conscious choice on the part of the mage.  Given what we're told happens in Rivain, it's completely within the realm of possibility that the Rivaini mages know something about the Fade and its denizens that people living under the Chantry's dominion do not. 

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

Silfren, if you haven't already I highly recommend reading Thomas Hobbes; Leviathan, particular his thoughts on the State of Nature. He outlines rather nicely that coexistence in society is motivated by selfishness and convenience more than any upstanding virtue. You may disagree but it's still a good read.

I've already read it, and yes, I do disagree.  Just because Hobbes says it hardly makes it true. 

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Connor should be held accountable. An ailing family member isn't exactly a rare situation, and he resulted in quite a lot of death and mutilated quite a lot of people (cutting off the ears of elves and feeding them to mabari).

But no, if he is saved from the demon he doesn't go to trial, he is protected and goes to the Circle. Talk about getting off easy.

Connor was a very young child, and there's a reason why we don't punish very young children--they lack the cognitive ability to understand. 

The rarity or lack thereof of an ailing relative is irrelevant.  Children often will do things they think will help without understanding what it is they're doing.  Connor's ONLY difference in this was his capacity for magic. 

As for the other, he is often killed, or his mother is killed on his behalf.  Neither of those involve getting off easy.  If he is saved another way, then he gets taken away from his parents and forfeits his birthright.  That ain't getting off easy.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Thedas isn't Earth, mages don't exist, blah blah blah, but you know, I wonder how you came to such a hugely negative perspective of people.

 
I observe the world around me, I watch the news, I read history books.
And yes, I'm an example of this wretched humanity myself. I'm not exempt, I certainly wouldn't trust myself with magic.

Human nature allows for co-existence just fine.  Yes, humanity is rife with xenophobic individuals, and xenophobic cultures in general, and it's given us everything from Jim Crow laws to Hitler. 

But there's plenty of people in the world who manage to co-exist with their neighbors just fine, and history has just as many examples as it does of this better side of humanity as it does its darker side.  Certainly I've seen nothing in real world events that would convince me that co-existence is such anathema to human nature that it's not even worth trying!

Basically, DPSSC already said everything I would say.
Human beings need to live in society to survive but, within our societies, we still look out for number one. Equality between the different races in our wolrd is possible because we are, basically, the same. There are differences between us but, we all have acess to the same abilities. And despite that, xenophobia runs rampant in our world.

But mundanes and mages are not equal. That's just a fact, mages have acess to extremely useful abilities that give them an edge over mundanes. An edge that they will exploit as we have exploited our edge of intelligence to place ourselves about the other animals of planet Earth.
I don't think that slavery is the inevitable end if mages are free but I do believe, with every ounce of intelligence in me, that if mages are free, mundanes will live as the City Elves live in the Dragon Age withing a few generations.

I root for Charles Xavier but were I a mutant, I would side with Magneto.

We have tried. There have been thousands of attempts in Thedas. It's just not possible.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 mars 2013 - 11:04 .

[dragonflight288]

I'll direct you to the thread I made on the subject.
http://social.biowar.../index/15570121

Hmm. I see your point, but I would like to see if that's a cultural thing for the Chasind or if it was individual action from the belief of only a single person.

Connor should be held accountable. An ailing family member isn't exactly a rare situation, and he resulted in quite a lot of death and mutilated quite a lot of people (cutting off the ears of elves and feeding them to mabari).

But no, if he is saved from the demon he doesn't go to trial, he is protected and goes to the Circle. Talk about getting off easy.

Yes, let's murder the kid who had no idea what he was doing and leave his mother completely scott-free, the blood mage who poisoned the father before any problems existed, or Loghain who hired the blood mage in the first place? Connor's situation has so many variables going on that it's impossible to hold any one person accountable for anything.

And Connor's situation proves that its possible to free a mage from possession of a demon, if they made the deal willingly.

What gives them the right to rule is irrelevant. The fact remains that only mages may be assigned to the position of supreme authority.
That makes the dalish a mage supremacist society.

A mage supremacist society where the Keepers and Firsts don't perform any magic in public, even within their own clans?

DPSSOC wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
And what is it about human nature that would prevent people from living and working together if some are mages and most are not?

The part of human nature that has us set up hierarchies.  Put a group of people together, randomly selected making sure they've never met one another before, and tell them to work together on a project.  Inevitably a hierarchy is going to form, you're going to have one or more people who want to be in charge and they'll battle it out in some way until they've decided who's in charge, who's under them, and so on.  It isn't something we do conciously but it's something we all do.

This part of our nature is why equality is not the natural order of things, it needs to be imposed and enforced because we aren't all equal.  It's easier now irl because technology is the great equalizer, with the right tools I can do a job just as well as someone 10 times stronger than me.  However nothing is ever going to bridge the gap between mundanes and mages, magic is just capable of too much that technology isn't, so mages and mundanes are never going to be "equal."

Maybe it can hold for a couple generations, but eventually the mages are going to realize that the mundanes are not their equals and they won't treat them like they are.  Similarily mundanes are going to realize it too, and attempt to get an upper hand before the mages catch on.

It's like the X Men, no matter how much we might like Xavier's philosophy, we know Magneto's right.

So....human nature also dictates that the Chantry set up a hierarchy where mages are slaves and supports genocide on a regular basis then?

I'm sorry for you and MisterJB, if you truly have such sad opinions on humanity as a whole. I see plenty of examples throughout history of the good people can do. For every tragedy caused by greed, too much ambition or selfishness, there is a heartwarming story that comes from goodness and kindness of others, because it's human nature to care for others and to help others.

It's also human nature to want to work for what one has, to make their own way, to develop a work ethic (save for the people who fall into the human nature of laziness and mooching off others) and simply take care of their family. It's also human nature to be giving. It's also human nature to go out of the way to help someone in need.

Some people are evil jerks, and some people are saints, and it's part of their nature, which is influenced by their environment, their families support (or lack thereof), their friends and their own desires.

Creating an environment where there is no family support, where children are taken away as Chantry property (which is traumatizing to the parent and the child both, the child grows up with family, and that is always a strong, often negative, influence on child development) and being told day-in and day-out that your very existence is a sin and you are cursed by the Maker for the acts of those who lived thousands of years before you were born....is bound to make mages fall into the category you guys seem intent on categorizing them as.

You can't dismiss the negative influence the Chantry has on the child development of mage children, and how traumatizing their practices are. That is a very strong factor. Remove it, and I guarantee through real-life statistics that you'll see a much greater increase in good, hard-working mage citizens who only wish to obey the law.

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
And what is it about human nature that would prevent people from living and working together if some are mages and most are not?

The part of human nature that has us set up hierarchies.  Put a group of people together, randomly selected making sure they've never met one another before, and tell them to work together on a project.  Inevitably a hierarchy is going to form, you're going to have one or more people who want to be in charge and they'll battle it out in some way until they've decided who's in charge, who's under them, and so on.  It isn't something we do conciously but it's something we all do.

Do you have actual proof of this, or is this just your personal opinion?  Because your idea here only works if you assume that every person on the planet, right down to the last individual, has exactly the same personality. 

None of this crap is inevitable.

[Silfren]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Thedas isn't Earth, mages don't exist, blah blah blah, but you know, I wonder how you came to such a hugely negative perspective of people.[/quote] 
I observe the world around me, I watch the news, I read history books.
And yes, I'm an example of this wretched humanity myself. I'm not exempt, I certainly wouldn't trust myself with magic.[/quote]

Wow.  Oddly enough, I observe the world around me, I watch the news, and read history, and I see just as much good as I do bad.  You're quite obviously choosing to ignore all the information available about humanity's better nature, because it IS there if you're not blinding yourself to it because you'd rather take the misanthropic view.

[quote]
Human nature allows for co-existence just fine.  Yes, humanity is rife with xenophobic individuals, and xenophobic cultures in general, and it's given us everything from Jim Crow laws to Hitler. 

But there's plenty of people in the world who manage to co-exist with their neighbors just fine, and history has just as many examples as it does of this better side of humanity as it does its darker side.  Certainly I've seen nothing in real world events that would convince me that co-existence is such anathema to human nature that it's not even worth trying![/quote]
Basically, DPSSC already said everything I would say.
Human beings need to live in society to survive but, within our societies, we still look out for number one. Equality between the different races in our wolrd is possible because we are, basically, the same. There are differences between us but, we all have acess to the same abilities. And despite that, xenophobia runs rampant in our world.[/quote]

Rampant, yes.  Exclusively, no.  And I know PLENTY of people who spend their lives looking out for everyone BUT themselves.  I don't know where you got such a totally negative view of people, but you DIDN'T get it from just watching, reading, and observing, because you'd see this if you did all those things.  It looks more like you just have a hateful opinion of people and choose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

[quote]We have tried. There have been thousands of attempts in Thedas. It's just not possible.
[/quote]

Thousands of attempts?  Oh, really, now?  Name a few. 

Modifié par Silfren, 09 mars 2013 - 11:16 .

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
And what is it about human nature that would prevent people from living and working together if some are mages and most are not?

It's like the X Men, no matter how much we might like Xavier's philosophy, we know Magneto's right.

Speak for yourself.  I've never thought he was right, not once.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Wow.  Oddly enough, I observe the world around me, I watch the news, and read history, and I see just as much good as I do bad.  You're quite obviously choosing to ignore all the information available about humanity's better nature, because it IS there if you're not willing to blind yourself to it because you'd rather take the misanthropic view.

Even these supposedly "good" deeds only come about because we get a natural high doing it and it swells our ego. All human acts are, ultimately, selfish, even the good ones.

Rampant, yes.  Exclusively, no.  And I know PLENTY of people who spend their lives looking out for everyone BUT themselves.  I don't know where you got such a totally negative view of people, but you DIDN'T get it from just watching, reading, and observing, because you'd see this if you did all those things.  It looks more like you just have a hateful opinion of people and choose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

You're rigth. My experiences have also shown me just how horrible people are.
I don't hate people. I just assume we listen to our more negative urges more often than not and I keep being proven right.
Sure, there are what is normally considered as "good" people out there. Im sure there good mages in Tevinter as well. There were good templars in Kirkwall's Circle.
Our instincts are still what they are. So are our societies. It's naive to think mages won't use their gifts to enhance their living conditions at the expense of those who can't. That's not a particularly "evil" action, no more than our own rich.
It's just the way things are.

Thousands of attempts?  Oh, really, now?  Name a few.

How about every society ever. They didn't just begin with "Now, we are going to separate mundanes and mages. Why? Because."
Mundanes and mages lived together in Tevinter. Mages took control.
Andraste rebelled. Now mundanes have taken control.
The Chantry restricted the use of magic. The mages protested.
The Chantry then authorized it but only in remote locations. We are at war again.
It will never end.


This seems relevant. A preview from the upcoming DA book series "Until we sleep":

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 mars 2013 - 11:35 .

[DPSSOC]

Silfren wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Silfren, if you haven't already I highly recommend reading Thomas Hobbes; Leviathan, particular his thoughts on the State of Nature. He outlines rather nicely that coexistence in society is motivated by selfishness and convenience more than any upstanding virtue. You may disagree but it's still a good read.

I've already read it, and yes, I do disagree.  Just because Hobbes says it hardly makes it true. 

Fair enough, I felt he made a fairly convincing argument and if you hadn't read it it might offer insight into how individuals like myself think.  Wasn't trying to say Hobbes is right, that's one of the things I learned a long time ago in reading philosophy there usually isn't a "right."

dragonflight288 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
And what is it about human nature that would prevent people from living and working together if some are mages and most are not?

The part of human nature that has us set up hierarchies. Put a group of people together, randomly selected making sure they've never met one another before, and tell them to work together on a project. Inevitably a hierarchy is going to form, you're going to have one or more people who want to be in charge and they'll battle it out in some way until they've decided who's in charge, who's under them, and so on. It isn't something we do conciously but it's something we all do.

This part of our nature is why equality is not the natural order of things, it needs to be imposed and enforced because we aren't all equal. It's easier now irl because technology is the great equalizer, with the right tools I can do a job just as well as someone 10 times stronger than me. However nothing is ever going to bridge the gap between mundanes and mages, magic is just capable of too much that technology isn't, so mages and mundanes are never going to be "equal."

Maybe it can hold for a couple generations, but eventually the mages are going to realize that the mundanes are not their equals and they won't treat them like they are. Similarily mundanes are going to realize it too, and attempt to get an upper hand before the mages catch on.

It's like the X Men, no matter how much we might like Xavier's philosophy, we know Magneto's right.

So....human nature also dictates that the Chantry set up a hierarchy where mages are slaves and supports genocide on a regular basis then?

Sadly yes, that's the flip side. Equality works, for lack of a better term, in our world because on the basic level we're all pretty much the same. There are variances but they're small, we have to work in order to widen the gap between us and those around us. Equality can't work in Thedas becaause the people are not the same. The variance in base ability between a mundane and a mage is massive, and to date the only way to bridge that gap is drinking lyrium, and even that doesn't put you on even ground. So it's going to fall one of two ways: the mages, acknowledging the disparity between themselves and mundanes, use their abilities to put themselves on top; or the mundanes, out of fear of that happening, will beat the mages down in order to protect themselves.

dragonflight288 wrote...
I'm sorry for you and MisterJB, if you truly have such sad opinions on humanity as a whole. I see plenty of examples throughout history of the good people can do. For every tragedy caused by greed, too much ambition or selfishness, there is a heartwarming story that comes from goodness and kindness of others, because it's human nature to care for others and to help others.

Here's a quick question, because it's basically the foundation of my view on humanity. We often see the worst in humanity coming from the best of us. Even people who want to be good stumble or fail and induldge their darker impulses. Here's the question, do you have one example of the best in humanity coming from the worst of us? Good people can be cruel, petty, and selfish; but in 26 years I've never seen bad people be kind, generous, or noble.

Silfren wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
And what is it about human nature that would prevent people from living and working together if some are mages and most are not?

The part of human nature that has us set up hierarchies. Put a group of people together, randomly selected making sure they've never met one another before, and tell them to work together on a project. Inevitably a hierarchy is going to form, you're going to have one or more people who want to be in charge and they'll battle it out in some way until they've decided who's in charge, who's under them, and so on. It isn't something we do conciously but it's something we all do.

Do you have actual proof of this, or is this just your personal opinion? Because your idea here only works if you assume that every person on the planet, right down to the last individual, has exactly the same personality.

None of this crap is inevitable.

I have observed this behaviour myself but that's not my sole basis for it. It's a carry over from animal behaviour, when we work together we subconciously establish ourselves as a pack, herd, pride, what have you, and the basic behaviours take hold; who's the alpha, who's beta, etc. I do recall reading a study on it, a friend of mine is getting his Masters, or has he gotten it already I'll ask him, in psychology and I've read a few of his books so it was probably in one of those. I'll see if I can't find it again.

[dragonflight288]

Here's a quick question, because it's basically the foundation of my view on humanity. We often see the worst in humanity coming from the best of us. Even people who want to be good stumble or fail and induldge their darker impulses. Here's the question, do you have one example of the best in humanity coming from the worst of us? Good people can be cruel, petty, and selfish; but in 26 years I've never seen bad people be kind, generous, or noble.

People can change. Saul of Tarsus, should you believe in the Bible, went from someone who persecuted the early christians, tormenting them to prison and death until he had a vision, and had a complete flip in attitude. And not just towards Christians, having become one himself, but he no longer stood by while people were killed, and stood up for the truth.

I have seen people who were absolute jerks in High School, legal adults at the age of 18, and they made my life a living h*** growing up, but when I ran into them later, they had changed. They were remorseful of their actions and apologized, and not only tried to apologize but went out of their way to make it up.

When I was in a car accident two weeks ago, I didn't see anyone lay any blame on anyone. I saw no less than 8 cars full of people pull over to ask if anyone was injured, offer to get a tow truck, and just tried to help because it was the decent thing to do.

My younger brother and sister were in a middle school when the school got a bomb threat and the school was evacuated. I saw an entire community come together to help and support one another and to make sure everyone was safe. Complete strangers were trusted to look after kids while other people went looking for other students who wandered off, and everyone ended up safe.

And then there are the small and simple, every day things. A comforting hug from a mother, a friend lending an ear when their friend is having a bad day, helping someone with homework just because that person needed help.

I see great and noble actions around me every day. They don't have to be larger than life heroics. Just small and simple things from good people.

That is true nobility of spirit, and is human nature, and I see it every day.

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...

Connor was a very young child, and there's a reason why we don't punish very young children--they lack the cognitive ability to understand. 

The rarity or lack thereof of an ailing relative is irrelevant.  Children often will do things they think will help without understanding what it is they're doing.  Connor's ONLY difference in this was his capacity for magic. 

As for the other, he is often killed, or his mother is killed on his behalf.  Neither of those involve getting off easy.  If he is saved another way, then he gets taken away from his parents and forfeits his birthright.  That ain't getting off easy.

We don't punish a young kid for minor things.  We still punish them for major things.  It seems to vary by state, but a child as young as 12 can be tried as an adult if the offense is strong enough.  And that's nowadays, this is the world of Dragon Age.  Only the Templar and the fact that Connor is a noble keep him from being punished.

The point is, it is not a unique scenario.  We can't just nod our heads and say "Oh you poor dear, don't worry about all the lives you ruined, you little scamp!" for every scenario.  That's not fair to every party involved.

Death is adequete punishment, yes.  However, just going off the the Circle is not.  That would have happened regardless of what he had done once his mage status was revealed.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Wow.  Oddly enough, I observe the world around me, I watch the news, and read history, and I see just as much good as I do bad.  You're quite obviously choosing to ignore all the information available about humanity's better nature, because it IS there if you're not willing to blind yourself to it because you'd rather take the misanthropic view.

Even these supposedly "good" deeds only come about because we get a natural high doing it and it swells our ego. All human acts are, ultimately, selfish, even the good ones.

Not true.  I know a number of people who go out of their way to help others specifically because they care about the people they're helping.  Especially those who've been in the same shoes of the ones who need the help.  I'm one of those people.  I don't get a high from it, nor do I get an ego boost.  Wow, but you are a really cynical person.

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Rampant, yes.  Exclusively, no.  And I know PLENTY of people who spend their lives looking out for everyone BUT themselves.  I don't know where you got such a totally negative view of people, but you DIDN'T get it from just watching, reading, and observing, because you'd see this if you did all those things.  It looks more like you just have a hateful opinion of people and choose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

You're rigth. My experiences have also shown me just how horrible people are.
I don't hate people. I just assume we listen to our more negative urges more often than not and I keep being proven right.
Sure, there are what is normally considered as "good" people out there. Im sure there good mages in Tevinter as well. There were good templars in Kirkwall's Circle.
Our instincts are still what they are. So are our societies. It's naive to think mages won't use their gifts to enhance their living conditions at the expense of those who can't. That's not a particularly "evil" action, no more than our own rich.
It's just the way things are.

It's ONLY the way things are if you assume the worst of people.  I'm not speaking from a position of naivete, here.  I've got a pretty extensive experience with people myself, and I've seen about equal parts bad and good on a huge range of circumstances.  SOME mages would use their gifts at the expense of others, but there is no reason at all to assume this would be the inevitable goal of all of them. 

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Thousands of attempts?  Oh, really, now?  Name a few.

How about every society ever. They didn't just begin with "Now, we are going to separate mundanes and mages. Why? Because."

Yeah, no.  You asserted that it's happened thousands of times, and there's nothing to back this up. 

MisterJB wrote...
Mundanes and mages lived together in Tevinter. Mages took control.
Andraste rebelled. Now mundanes have taken control.
The Chantry restricted the use of magic. The mages protested.
The Chantry then authorized it but only in remote locations. We are at war again.
It will never end.

This isn't thousands of times.  It is exactly two separate events, one of which was in reaction to the other.  There is no reason to just assume that there is no possible alternative to either scenario, no reason certainly to not even try to come up with a better system.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mars 2013 - 02:01 .

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Connor was a very young child, and there's a reason why we don't punish very young children--they lack the cognitive ability to understand. 

The rarity or lack thereof of an ailing relative is irrelevant.  Children often will do things they think will help without understanding what it is they're doing.  Connor's ONLY difference in this was his capacity for magic. 

As for the other, he is often killed, or his mother is killed on his behalf.  Neither of those involve getting off easy.  If he is saved another way, then he gets taken away from his parents and forfeits his birthright.  That ain't getting off easy.

We don't punish a young kid for minor things.  We still punish them for major things.  It seems to vary by state, but a child as young as 12 can be tried as an adult if the offense is strong enough.  And that's nowadays, this is the world of Dragon Age.  Only the Templar and the fact that Connor is a noble keep him from being punished.

Connor wasn't twelve.  I think he was supposed to be five or six, whatever age that magic tends to first express itself.  And I don't know of any evidence that the world of Dragon Age, or more precisely the nation of Ferelden, would be frothing at the mouth to see the child punished.  Especially since what happened did so ultimately because of Isolde's desperation to protect her son at the expense of his receiving proper training.  The blood lies most heavily on her hands.  Jowan's and Loghain's, too, but mostly on hers.  Then again I also blame the system as a whole because Isolde wouldn't have been terrified and ashamed of her son, or not so much, if not for the Chantry's determined hatemongering.

The point is, it is not a unique scenario.  We can't just nod our heads and say "Oh you poor dear, don't worry about all the lives you ruined, you little scamp!" for every scenario.  That's not fair to every party involved.

Again, we're NOT talking about a twelve year old boy here, but one more around six or so.  I think.  I'm not sure how old he's supposed to be, but fan opinion has always labeled him around that age, from what I know.  It's based on the fact that most mages' abilities tend to manifest around that age.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mars 2013 - 01:43 .

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

Here's a quick question, because it's basically the foundation of my view on humanity. We often see the worst in humanity coming from the best of us. Even people who want to be good stumble or fail and induldge their darker impulses. Here's the question, do you have one example of the best in humanity coming from the worst of us? Good people can be cruel, petty, and selfish; but in 26 years I've never seen bad people be kind, generous, or noble.

Yes, actually.  Bad and good are not an either/or setup, but a spectrum., as you acknowledge with regards to the idea that good people are capable of the worst of human behaviors.  It actually DOES also follow that many bad people are capable of the best.  Reason being simply that most people are a balance of both, and even those with a greater tendency toward the bad are rarely so bad as to have no good whatsoever.  Most of us have had the experience of knowing an individual that we think of as a total jerk, only to run across someone else who thinks of them as a good person, with the experience to justify viewing them that way. 

There has never been any human being alive who was  completely 100% good, if we define this as not ever having so much as a thought of doing something selfish at another person's expense.  But people who are irredeemably evil to the extent that they've never had a kind thought or action in their entire existence, are vanishingly rare.

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...
Connor wasn't twelve.  I think he was supposed to be five or six, whatever age that magic tends to first express itself.  And I don't know of any evidence that the world of Dragon Age, or more precisely the nation of Ferelden, would be frothing at the mouth to see the child punished.  Especially since what happened did so ultimately because of Isolde's desperation to protect her son at the expense of his receiving proper training.  The blood lies most heavily on her hands.  Jowan's and Loghain's, too, but mostly on hers.  Then again I also blame the system as a whole because Isolde wouldn't have been terrified and ashamed of her son, or not so much, if not for the Chantry's determined hatemongering.

Again, we're NOT talking about a twelve year old boy here, but one more around six or so.  I think.  I'm not sure how old he's supposed to be, but fan opinion has always labeled him around that age, from what I know.  It's based on the fact that most mages' abilities tend to manifest around that age.

Even then, that doesn't matter.  I was pointing out that it was 12 in our world, which is significantly more lenient than the world of Dragon Age in most matters.  Wynne mentions that children who display magic are usually killed out of fear if the Templar don't get their in time.  In this case, a child did to something horrific.  Of course there needs to be a punishment of sort.  How many lives are ruined because of this one idiot kid?

Oh yes, let's just blame the system for everything.  If Isolde had let the system work, Redcliffe wouldn't be full of the undead.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

Connor wasn't twelve. I think he was supposed to be five or six, whatever age that magic tends to first express itself.

It tends to come to surface when a child is anywhere between six and twelve years old. I'd say Connor's more likely ten years old, given that he was intended to make an appearance in DAII during Act 3.

[DPSSOC]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Here's a quick question, because it's basically the foundation of my view on humanity. We often see the worst in humanity coming from the best of us. Even people who want to be good stumble or fail and induldge their darker impulses. Here's the question, do you have one example of the best in humanity coming from the worst of us? Good people can be cruel, petty, and selfish; but in 26 years I've never seen bad people be kind, generous, or noble.

People can change. Saul of Tarsus, should you believe in the Bible, went from someone who persecuted the early christians, tormenting them to prison and death until he had a vision, and had a complete flip in attitude. And not just towards Christians, having become one himself, but he no longer stood by while people were killed, and stood up for the truth.

I have seen people who were absolute jerks in High School, legal adults at the age of 18, and they made my life a living h*** growing up, but when I ran into them later, they had changed. They were remorseful of their actions and apologized, and not only tried to apologize but went out of their way to make it up.

When I was in a car accident two weeks ago, I didn't see anyone lay any blame on anyone. I saw no less than 8 cars full of people pull over to ask if anyone was injured, offer to get a tow truck, and just tried to help because it was the decent thing to do.

My younger brother and sister were in a middle school when the school got a bomb threat and the school was evacuated. I saw an entire community come together to help and support one another and to make sure everyone was safe. Complete strangers were trusted to look after kids while other people went looking for other students who wandered off, and everyone ended up safe.

And then there are the small and simple, every day things. A comforting hug from a mother, a friend lending an ear when their friend is having a bad day, helping someone with homework just because that person needed help.

I see great and noble actions around me every day. They don't have to be larger than life heroics. Just small and simple things from good people.

That is true nobility of spirit, and is human nature, and I see it every day.

I acknowledge that people can be good, I'm even willing to acknowledge that not all good actions are motivated by selfishness, but doing and being bad are far more common.  It's not about people changing, or everyone being an evil bastard, it's about our inclination as a species.

In my experience people are more likely to kick you when you're down rather than help you up.  Consider that you have to teach a child to share what they have with others, you have to teach them not to take what isn't theirs, and you have to teach them that violence is wrong, because left to their own devices they'll horde, steal, and hit.

Maybe I'm just an old cynic but that's the world I grew up in, that's the world I wake up to every morning.

However you didn't answer the question, can you offer an example?

Silfren wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Here's a quick question, because it's basically the foundation of my view on humanity. We often see the worst in humanity coming from the best of us. Even people who want to be good stumble or fail and induldge their darker impulses. Here's the question, do you have one example of the best in humanity coming from the worst of us? Good people can be cruel, petty, and selfish; but in 26 years I've never seen bad people be kind, generous, or noble.

Yes, actually. Bad and good are not an either/or setup, but a spectrum., as you acknowledge with regards to the idea that good people are capable of the worst of human behaviors. It actually DOES also follow that many bad people are capable of the best.

Yes it's theoretically possible, but can you offer an example?

[dragonflight288]

I acknowledge that people can be good, I'm even willing to acknowledge that not all good actions are motivated by selfishness, but doing and being bad are far more common. It's not about people changing, or everyone being an evil bastard, it's about our inclination as a species.

In my experience people are more likely to kick you when you're down rather than help you up. Consider that you have to teach a child to share what they have with others, you have to teach them not to take what isn't theirs, and you have to teach them that violence is wrong, because left to their own devices they'll horde, steal, and hit.

Maybe I'm just an old cynic but that's the world I grew up in, that's the world I wake up to every morning.

However you didn't answer the question, can you offer an example?

I did offer an example. Plenty of them. You don't need the best actions from the worst people. You just need good people doing good things because it's in their nature and that shows that it isn't human nature to try to screw everyone else to get ahead.

Maybe you are cynical, and maybe I have a lot more faith in humanity than you do, but I see more examples every day in life of good people doing good things than I do of bad people doing bad things. I hear on the news of individuals committing atrociites, or engaging in criminal behavior, and I believe that the bad things are a lot easier to remember than the good things, because people pay attention to the bad things more.

You don't go to see a movie about sunshine and rainbows and how everyone is happy and everyone gets the good ending. That's not reality and that kind of plot-point usually only works with kids in children shows. People remember drama and conflict a lot more, because it's drama, conflict, and the tension draw audiences in. What does this have to do with people being good or bad? Not much, but I'm using it to highlight that it's easier to see the bad things in life, and we as a society have a tendency to surround ourselves with the bad things, from our entertainment to just watching it on the news.

The good is still there. True nobility of spirit is still there. But like it's easier to get drawn into a movie with a lot of conflict, whether emotional or physical, than a movie that doesn't have that it, it's easier to see the bad part of life over the good because it leaves a stronger impression.

There's a saying, it takes 5-10 compliments to make up a single insult. But I see more people being good than I see people being bad. It's just that there are enough individual bad people making the news that it's easy to have your attention drawn away from the more numerous good people doing good things.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Thedas isn't Earth, mages don't exist, blah blah blah, but you know, I wonder how you came to such a hugely negative perspective of people.

 
I observe the world around me, I watch the news, I read history books.
And yes, I'm an example of this wretched humanity myself. I'm not exempt, I certainly wouldn't trust myself with magic.

Ditto.

Mages and mundanes aren't equal, can ever be equal and cannot co-exist in perfect equality.