523 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Equal rigths imply equality between people. While it is true that there will always be differences between humans beings; at our most basic, we are all the same.
We all have muscles. Some are stronger but that's why we have machinery that allows the weakest man to lift things that weigh tons. Machinery that can be used by anyone, this is important.
Education can be learned. Money can be earned.

Magic, on the other hand, you are either born with it or you're not. And it's plainly obvious that magic extablishes an insurmountable distance between mundanes and mages. One can never learn to be a mage.
Mundanes and mages are, by nature, unequal therefore, our concept of equal rigths doesn't apply to them.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 mars 2013 - 02:43 .

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Equal rigths imply equality between people. While it is true that there will always be differences between humans beings; at our most basic, we are all the same.
We all have muscles. Some are stronger but that's why we have machinery that allows the weakest man to lift things that weigh tons. Machinery that can be used by anyone, this is important.
Education can be learned. Money can be earned.

Magic, on the other hand, you are either born with it or you're not. And it's plainly obvious that magic extablishes an insurmountable distance between mundanes and mages. One can never learn to be a mage.
Mundanes and mages are, by nature, unequal therefore, our concept of equal rigths doesn't apply to them.

Yet what gives the mundanes the right to treat mages like this? Mundanes are blind and deaf to magic and without mages i doubt the mundanes could survive in thedas. Furthermore mundanes can wield magic power. We already seen spirit warriors , reavers and lyrium tatooes. In short its the mundane that doesnt want to evolve itself. that what doesnt evolve itself will go extinct .

[Lazy Jer]

MisterJB wrote...

Equal rigths imply equality between people. While it is true that there will always be differences between humans beings; at our most basic, we are all the same.
We all have muscles. Some are stronger but that's why we have machinery that allows the weakest man to lift things that weigh tons. Machinery that can be used by anyone, this is important.
Education can be learned. Money can be earned.

Magic, on the other hand, you are either born with it or you're not. And it's plainly obvious that magic extablishes an insurmountable distance between mundanes and mages. One can never learn to be a mage.
Mundanes and mages are, by nature, unequal therefore, our concept of equal rigths doesn't apply to them.

Be that as it may there are better ways of handling it then the Circle system currently in place.  The current system (or at least the system before the circle rebelled) had people being captured by Templars, locked up in a tower for the rest of their lives (except in certain rare circumstances) and being made tranquil if one of two people decided you're not strong enough for the Harrowing, or even being killed if your Harrowing takes too long.

There's also too much chance for abuse because the position of First Enchanter doesn't appear to have adequate access to the Grand Cleric and/or the Devine to address overzealous Knight Commanders or Lord Seekers who overstep their boundaries.

Adequate training is what's needed to deal with the potential threat that a young mage might possess.  The Circle, then, needs to be a place where mages would actually want to go to for training.  The current system is the opposite.  Nearly every mage you encounter in the games wants to avoid going to the Circle.

Isolde herself is a dedicated Andrastean and she still wouldn't turn Connor over to the Circle.  Fenryal's mother only even thinks about the Circle as an option when her son starts having nightmares the likes of which no one she knows has had to deal with.  Since the Circle is so feared by the mages they profess to want to protect then it's only going to encourage mages to go full abomination when cornered by the Templars.

[Lazy Jer]

DKJaigen wrote...

Yet what gives the mundanes the right to treat mages like this? Mundanes are blind and deaf to magic and without mages i doubt the mundanes could survive in thedas. Furthermore mundanes can wield magic power. We already seen spirit warriors , reavers and lyrium tatooes. In short its the mundane that doesnt want to evolve itself. that what doesnt evolve itself will go extinct .

Frankly I think you're misdirecting with that statement.  The "mundanes" for the most part are regular folks in regular communities.  They're farmers, blacksmiths, stall owners, barmaids, bartenders, bar flies, merchants and etc.  While they may have suspicions and prejudices, they're really not the party actively oppressing mages.  The Templars are.  And since the Templars possess powers outside the realm of normal folks they really don't count as mundanes.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 14 mars 2013 - 04:00 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Equal rigths imply equality between people. While it is true that there will always be differences between humans beings; at our most basic, we are all the same.
We all have muscles. Some are stronger but that's why we have machinery that allows the weakest man to lift things that weigh tons. Machinery that can be used by anyone, this is important.
Education can be learned. Money can be earned.

Magic, on the other hand, you are either born with it or you're not. And it's plainly obvious that magic extablishes an insurmountable distance between mundanes and mages. One can never learn to be a mage.
Mundanes and mages are, by nature, unequal therefore, our concept of equal rigths doesn't apply to them.

Since cutting off magic entirely would rather swiftly lead to death by darkspawn or qunari, the best option for dealing with this would seem to be to give everyone magic. It may lead to chaos in Thedas, but it'd lead to way more chaos in qunari territory, and would be to our net gain, especially since the Circles would be far better teachers to us than their saarebas would be to them. Demons are a potential problem, but they're not as organized as darkspawn or qunari. In any case, it's possible that whatever mojo used to give magical potential to everyone will also reduce the risk of demons coming from them, in which case it'd be a no-brainer.

But if that's impossible, then mages would need to occupy a separate, but not lesser, place in society. Simple confinement obviously isn't the answer. With luck, DAI will provide us with something that can satisfy both the mages and enough mundanes that the Templar Order can stay dead and reviled.

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Equal rigths imply equality between people. While it is true that there will always be differences between humans beings; at our most basic, we are all the same.
We all have muscles. Some are stronger but that's why we have machinery that allows the weakest man to lift things that weigh tons. Machinery that can be used by anyone, this is important.
Education can be learned. Money can be earned.

Magic, on the other hand, you are either born with it or you're not. And it's plainly obvious that magic extablishes an insurmountable distance between mundanes and mages. One can never learn to be a mage.
Mundanes and mages are, by nature, unequal therefore, our concept of equal rigths doesn't apply to them.

Since cutting off magic entirely would rather swiftly lead to death by darkspawn or qunari, the best option for dealing with this would seem to be to give everyone magic. It may lead to chaos in Thedas, but it'd lead to way more chaos in qunari territory, and would be to our net gain, especially since the Circles would be far better teachers to us than their saarebas would be to them. Demons are a potential problem, but they're not as organized as darkspawn or qunari. In any case, it's possible that whatever mojo used to give magical potential to everyone will also reduce the risk of demons coming from them, in which case it'd be a no-brainer.

But if that's impossible, then mages would need to occupy a separate, but not lesser, place in society. Simple confinement obviously isn't the answer. With luck, DAI will provide us with something that can satisfy both the mages and enough mundanes that the Templar Order can stay dead and reviled.

Or will force a situation so big that templars will have no choice but accept that mages will no longer be under their control.

[Chashan]

But if that's impossible, then mages would need to occupy a separate,
but not lesser, place in society. Simple confinement obviously isn't the
answer. With luck, DAI will provide us with something that can satisfy
both the mages and enough mundanes that the Templar Order can stay dead
and reviled.

What the qunari fundamentally got to do with this - other than presenting another thorough option how to regulate magic - may elude me, however I expect one thing from BW in the future on this:

Aside from a first-hand look into the Imperium in general, going into how the Black Chantry's armed wing is organised, how they fare. And hopefully something more poignant and balanced than the White Chantry pamphlets we've been treated to thus far.

Truth be told, I'd grin in smug satisfaction if Templar-forces led by mages should prove far more effective potential-wise than their White brethren.

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...
I'm getting sick of the claim that because Connor summoned a demon, he MUST have done it because he's the spoiled progeny of a noble.  I'm also not impressed with your constant arguments--and others, because you're not the first to say it--that Connor was acting like a precious snowflake because EVERYBODY sooner or later has to deal with an ailing parent.  Since when does ANY child not focus on their own personal loss as if it is the only thing in the world that matters?  I'll give you a hint--few people do this while their in the throes of personal pain, child OR adult.  There's nothing wrong with this, it's the nature of grief and fear. 

Beyond that, you have no way of knowing that this would not have happened if Connor were a peasant.  His noble background has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he loved his father and feared losing him.

Every single one of your arguments requires a boy no older than ten to have the judgment capabilities that most people simply don't develop until they are much older.  How many children do you know who are capable of sound reasoning and judgment?  If you know one or two...fine, one or two against HOW MANY? 

Finally, it apparently bears repeating: where children are concerned, being TOLD of the danger of demons doesn't have **** to do with UNDERSTANDING this in a realistic sense.  The only children I've ever heard of who understand certain kinds of danger do so when it is an ever-present aspect of THEIR reality and not just something they get told about. ...and even then I still wouldn't necessarily trust a young kid to make certain logical judgments if they were in a stressful situation. 

Finally, it's one thing to be told that demons are bad and dangerous.  It's quite another to be educated in the finer points of demonology and how the Fade works, etc.  ANY number of children would have readily done the same thing Connor did, noble OR peasant.

Yes, but the vast majority of people don't make deals with Satan (or an otherworldly power) for their parent.  That's right up there with stuffing said parent and deluding yoursef that they're alive as about the worst way you can handle the situation.

Well, if Connor was a peasant, his mother would not have had the ability to hide his abilities and find a bloodmage tutor for him, so I'm fairly certain that it would not, in fact, have occurred had Connor been a peasant.

The original plan was just put Connor into the Circle and then none of this would have happened.  That's where young mages can learn critical thinking skills and be imparted the secret knowledge that a creature that offers you candy in a van is actually a bad person. :/

I have already answered this; if every child acted as Connor did, there is no way civilization could have gotten to the point it has.

Silfren wrote...
He's several years older than Connor.  No
buts to it; his older age makes a HUGE difference.  But as TEWR the
situations are not remotely comparable because the circumstances are not
analogous. 

You can't say objectively that Feyrniel is in a
worse situation.  Can you honestly tell me that if Feyrniel wasn't in
Connor's shoes he would not have done the same? No, you can't say that. 
But there's no way to objectively conclude which is worse:  the
possibility that you could lose your father, or being tormented in
dreams.  I can guarantee you any number of people would consider losing
their father worse.

I wasn't concerned with the Circle taking
away his nobility.  The only one of us who gives a sh*t about Connor's
nobility is you; you're the one who thinks it's the reason he did what
he did.   

I DO say that Connor does get plenty punished if you
either kill him or kill his mother.  Not in all playthroughs, no, but
your playthrough isn't the only one, either.  But I'd say that getting
taken away from your family AND having to live with what you did are not
exactly mild punishments.  Connor's not a hardened criminal here.  He
didn't set out to hurt anyone, so he has to live with knowing what
happened because of his foolishness.

You asked for another child mage and I offered one up to you.  He certainly isn't a legal adult.  The only other one with a story is Wynne, and she only caused minor damage to a person, not a load of murder and barbaric acts. 

Yes I can.  Feyrniel is poor, with only one parent, of mixed heritage (so at least one of his species won't accept him), and a mage in ****ing Kirkwall with no powerful backers until Hawke comes around, with powers that no one understands.  He's being tormented every night by creatures that he can't really do anything against.   I'm sorry, but Feyrniel has it quite a bit worse than Connor and saying otherwise is blinding yourself. 

Having to live with what he did?  Please, keep that awful nonsense out of here.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions and there is a mountain of dead along Connor's.  And this is not about the playthroughs that result in the death of the abomination, this is about the no consequence "Go to the Circle" playthrough.  As for getting taken away from his family, that isn't a punishment for brutally murdering and desecrating villagers, that's just part of being a Circle Mage.

[BlueMagitek]

Chashan wrote...

What the qunari fundamentally got to do with this - other than presenting another thorough option how to regulate magic - may elude me, however I expect one thing from BW in the future on this:

Aside from a first-hand look into the Imperium in general, going into how the Black Chantry's armed wing is organised, how they fare. And hopefully something more poignant and balanced than the White Chantry pamphlets we've been treated to thus far.

Truth be told, I'd grin in smug satisfaction if Templar-forces led by mages should prove far more effective potential-wise than their White brethren.

Lorewise, the Black Chantry's Templars are much less powerful against mages than their White Chantry brethern.  Most of the Black Templar don't have anti-magic capabilities and they tend to be used as a sort of hit squad by various Magisters.

The gorilla riding dwarf can back me up, if you'd rather not believe me.

http://social.biowar...ex/4546148&lf=8

Unless you're counting Spirit School mages, who I'm sure are reviled in Tevinter, who would certainly be most effective at their job.

[TEWR]

As for getting taken away from his family, that isn't a punishment for brutally murdering and desecrating villagers, that's just part of being a Circle Mage.

That is the case yes, but a child might still see it as a punishment anyway. Even when they're told that it would've happened had nothing happened, the child might still consider it to be a punishment regardless.

That's where young mages can learn critical thinking skills and be imparted the secret knowledge that a creature that offers you candy in a van is actually a bad person. :/

To be fair, the Circle has books on Demons meant for children to read that seriously downplay their threat, per Witch Hunt IIRC. Some sort of childish nonsense about them.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
That is the case yes, but a child might still see it as a punishment anyway. Even when they're told that it would've happened had nothing happened, the child might still consider it to be a punishment regardless.

To be fair, the Circle has books on Demons meant for children to read that seriously downplay their threat, per Witch Hunt IIRC. Some sort of childish nonsense about them.

It isn't about the child seeing it as punishment, it's about it being more, well, objective. :/
When Susan goes to the Circle for freak healing and Connor goes to the Circle for mass murder, there isn't really any way you can see that as punishment for your actions.

I haven't played WH for a while and that statement was a bit more sarcastic, I suppose. 

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
That is the case yes, but a child might still see it as a punishment anyway. Even when they're told that it would've happened had nothing happened, the child might still consider it to be a punishment regardless.

To be fair, the Circle has books on Demons meant for children to read that seriously downplay their threat, per Witch Hunt IIRC. Some sort of childish nonsense about them.

It isn't about the child seeing it as punishment, it's about it being more, well, objective. :/
When Susan goes to the Circle for freak healing and Connor goes to the Circle for mass murder, there isn't really any way you can see that as punishment for your actions.

I haven't played WH for a while and that statement was a bit more sarcastic, I suppose. 

No, there's a picture book you can find in the library that mentions demons. It's obviously meant for young children.

[Chashan]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Chashan wrote...

What the qunari fundamentally got to do with this - other than presenting another thorough option how to regulate magic - may elude me, however I expect one thing from BW in the future on this:

Aside from a first-hand look into the Imperium in general, going into how the Black Chantry's armed wing is organised, how they fare. And hopefully something more poignant and balanced than the White Chantry pamphlets we've been treated to thus far.

Truth be told, I'd grin in smug satisfaction if Templar-forces led by mages should prove far more effective potential-wise than their White brethren.

Lorewise, the Black Chantry's Templars are much less powerful against mages than their White Chantry brethern.  Most of the Black Templar don't have anti-magic capabilities and they tend to be used as a sort of hit squad by various Magisters.

The gorilla riding dwarf can back me up, if you'd rather not believe me.

http://social.biowar...ex/4546148&lf=8

Unless you're counting Spirit School mages, who I'm sure are reviled in Tevinter, who would certainly be most effective at their job.

As I said, potential-wise. How the flaws of a magocracy such as the Imperium's get in the way of them carrying out their task is something BW yet has to deliver. Which goes for any sort of depth in how the Imperials go about their daily business at home, anyway. A "true" mage just may end up being more capable to make use of the Black chapter than a Templar-commander with similar ressources at their disposal.

Of course, it's ultimately up to BW how they bring all of that onto the stage.

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Yes, but the vast majority of people don't make deals with Satan (or an otherworldly power) for their parent.  That's right up there with stuffing said parent and deluding yoursef that they're alive as about the worst way you can handle the situation.

You act as though Connor knew what he was doing when he summoned a demon.  But he makes it clear that he didn't know what she was, or that she was evil, until it was too late.  Don't forget that she was holding him hostage as much as everyone else.  His mistake was acting from a position of ignorance.

Well, if Connor was a peasant, his mother would not have had the ability to hide his abilities and find a bloodmage tutor for him, so I'm fairly certain that it would not, in fact, have occurred had Connor been a peasant.

I see I should have spelled it out that I meant all things being equal, aside from Connor being a peasant instead of a noble.  It IS actually possible that Isolde could have hidden Connor's abilities and tried to find a blood mage tutor.  She'd have had a harder time of it, but that doesn't mean she might not have tried, or been successful.  But this is besides the point, which you tried to dodge here.  Your assertion has been NOT that it wouldn't have happened because a peasant COULDN'T do it, but that a peasant simply WOULDN'T.  On the idea apparently that peasants somehow are fundamentally different from nobles and no such commoner child would ever be so desperate to save his father's life that he wouldn't let his heart override his brain, no commoner child would fail to say to themselves, "Oh, but alas I alone do not suffer, but so do all children face a dying parent; woe be upon me for allowing myself to believe my pain unique!"  Because we all know that children the world over are renowned for objectivity.

The original plan was just put Connor into the Circle and then none of this would have happened.  That's where young mages can learn critical thinking skills and be imparted the secret knowledge that a creature that offers you candy in a van is actually a bad person. :/

Which is why we need a system that parents don't fear to send their children to.  It's an argument AGAINST the Circle system, not for it.

I have already answered this; if every child acted as Connor did, there is no way civilization could have gotten to the point it has.

Which doesn't do a thing to address my point that Connor is not unique and you cannot claim that no peasant child would have reacted as he did out of the kind of desperation that only children can feel.

You asked for another child mage and I offered one up to you.  He certainly isn't a legal adult.  The only other one with a story is Wynne, and she only caused minor damage to a person, not a load of murder and barbaric acts.

Yes, but I wanted an example of a child mage that was actually RELEVANT.  If someone asked me to make a relevant comparison between children, I certainly would not think a someone in his mid to late teens is comparable to someone no younger than six, no older than ten.  But age aside, Feynriel's position is not the same, so the example is not relevant.

Yes I can.  Feyrniel is poor, with only one parent, of mixed heritage (so at least one of his species won't accept him), and a mage in ****ing Kirkwall with no powerful backers until Hawke comes around, with powers that no one understands.  He's being tormented every night by creatures that he can't really do anything against.   I'm sorry, but Feyrniel has it quite a bit worse than Connor and saying otherwise is blinding yourself.

I wasn't comparing their backgrounds, but their present troubles.  When I said that you cannot objectively say which has it worse I was referring specifically and ONLY to the specific instances of Feynriel's nightmares and Connor's fear of losing his father.  I repeat, you CANNOT objectify which has it worse. 

Having to live with what he did?  Please, keep that awful nonsense out of here.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions and there is a mountain of dead along Connor's.  And this is not about the playthroughs that result in the death of the abomination, this is about the no consequence "Go to the Circle" playthrough.  As for getting taken away from his family, that isn't a punishment for brutally murdering and desecrating villagers, that's just part of being a Circle Mage.

Maybe part of the problem is that I don't see Connor as the murderer, but as the unwitting tool of a murderer.  Connor didn't kill those people himself out of his own cold-bloodedness.  If we were talking about an adult who knew the dangers of screwing with the Fade and knew how dangerous demons were and what a risk it is to try to make deals with one, I'd be far less sympathetic.  But Connor was none of those things.  He wasn't a prideful adult with more ego than sense, he was a child who acted foolishly and unthinkingly out of a child's desperate attempt to save his father's life.  It is because Connor didn't mean any of those things and had no idea that those things would happen that I feel sympathy for him.  He's not a hard-bitten criminal who gleefully watched villagers die while he reveled in their misery.  So I DO think that his having to live with the guilt counts for something.  Anyway, again, I see Isolde as holding more of the blame here, because she's the one who put her son in this position.  Perhaps I've missed it, but you've yet to hold her responsible for a damn thing, from what I can see.  Why you consider her less to blame than the innocent boy is beyond me.

Modifié par Silfren, 15 mars 2013 - 02:34 .

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...
You act as though Connor knew what he was doing when he summoned a demon.  But he makes it clear that he didn't know what she was, or that she was evil, until it was too late.  Don't forget that she was holding him hostage as much as everyone else.  His mistake was acting from a position of ignorance.

I see I should have spelled it out that I meant all things being equal, aside from Connor being a peasant instead of a noble.  It IS actually possible that Isolde could have hidden Connor's abilities and tried to find a blood mage tutor.  She'd have had a harder time of it, but that doesn't mean she might not have tried, or been successful.  But this is besides the point, which you tried to dodge here.  Your assertion has been NOT that it wouldn't have happened because a peasant COULDN'T do it, but that a peasant simply WOULDN'T.  On the idea apparently that peasants somehow are fundamentally different from nobles and no such commoner child would ever be so desperate to save his father's life that he wouldn't let his heart override his brain, no commoner child would fail to say to themselves, "Oh, but alas I alone do not suffer, but so do all children face a dying parent; woe be upon me for allowing myself to believe my pain unique!"  Because we all know that children the world over are renowned for objectivity.

Which is why we need a system that parents don't fear to send their children to.  It's an argument AGAINST the Circle system, not for it.

Which doesn't do a thing to address my point that Connor is not unique and you cannot claim that no peasant child would have reacted as he did out of the kind of desperation that only children can feel.

Yes, but I wanted an example of a child mage that was actually RELEVANT.  If someone asked me to make a relevant comparison between children, I certainly would not think a someone in his mid to late teens is comparable to someone no younger than six, no older than ten.  But age aside, Feynriel's position is not the same, so the example is not relevant.

I wasn't comparing their backgrounds, but their present troubles.  When I said that you cannot objectively say which has it worse I was referring specifically and ONLY to the specific instances of Feynriel's nightmares and Connor's fear of losing his father.  I repeat, you CANNOT objectify which has it worse. 

Maybe part of the problem is that I don't see Connor as the murderer, but as the unwitting tool of a murderer.  Connor didn't kill those people himself out of his own cold-bloodedness.  If we were talking about an adult who knew the dangers of screwing with the Fade and knew how dangerous demons were and what a risk it is to try to make deals with one, I'd be far less sympathetic.  But Connor was none of those things.  He wasn't a prideful adult with more ego than sense, he was a child who acted foolishly and unthinkingly out of a child's desperate attempt to save his father's life.  It is because Connor didn't mean any of those things and had no idea that those things would happen that I feel sympathy for him.  He's not a hard-bitten criminal who gleefully watched villagers die while he reveled in their misery.  So I DO think that his having to live with the guilt counts for something.  Anyway, again, I see Isolde as holding more of the blame here, because she's the one who put her son in this position.  Perhaps I've missed it, but you've yet to hold her responsible for a damn thing, from what I can see.  Why you consider her less to blame than the innocent boy is beyond me.

If you don't get the "don't talk to strangers" vibe by ten, which is doubly impressed when your religion basically forces that strange mystical beings are not to be trusted.... well, if not for Connor's supposed accomplishments in Tevinter, I suppose you could argue for his mental capabilities being less than satisfactory.

You would be surprised. Fair enough though.  A peasant child would more likely wonder where their next meal would be coming from, or be already calloused to death by that point, being little more than a toy for the nobility and the armed.  Really, your father dying slowly of an illness is much more expensive than from a bandit raid; it would probably be more cost effective that way.  Heck, the kid you meet in Lothering perks right up once you give him a silver despite his mother being murdered behind him.

No, we need to better police the nobility or actually break in the mages to prevent this from happening.  While I'd prefer the former, the latter isn't out of sight; the Qunari do it and we rarely hear of a Qunari Abomination. 

Wow, "only children can feel"?  Seriously?  Children are tougher than you give them credit for; they aren't fragile sculptures of glass. 

Uh huh.  Well, we don't exactly have one of those, do we?  I gave you the other mage child and bam, look at that, no abomination.  But if you insist, Bethany (and Hawke) do not turn to demon summoning when their father goes missing or dies or whatever Malcom is up to.  Wynne doesn't summon a demon despite being locked in a barn with a very small amount of food. 

Uh huh.  Well, in that case, being tormented nightly for, quite possibly, the rest of your life is objectively worse than your father dying.  Because, do you know what?  Both of their families are going to die.  Everyone they know is going to die.  It's a fact of life.  Getting tormented in your dreams is worse because it attacks you in a place where your body is supposed to rest and there's no evidence that it is healed by time.

Hmm?  I was quite clear about holding Isolde responsible for her crime; hiding an apostate and harboring a maleficar.  Though I suppose I only specified one of those two earlier.  Those were the actions she took.  Connor is responsible for his own as well.  People died because of him.  This isn't a minor wound or something that be easily classified as an accident.  This isn't an accidental blast of fire in a town square.  Connor stole Jowan's books and performed a ritual to summon a demon (most likely with blood magic as I don't see how he can have access to lyrium).  This was a deliberate action of Connor, not an accident.  Everything that happens once he summoned the demon is his fault.  But next you'll place all the blame on Jowan for being a poor teacher or for not having his books locked up and tossed into a lake, I imagine.  Connor has the lion's share of the blame in this quest.

[BlueMagitek]

Chashan wrote...
As I said, potential-wise. How the flaws of a magocracy such as the Imperium's get in the way of them carrying out their task is something BW yet has to deliver. Which goes for any sort of depth in how the Imperials go about their daily business at home, anyway. A "true" mage just may end up being more capable to make use of the Black chapter than a Templar-commander with similar ressources at their disposal.

Of course, it's ultimately up to BW how they bring all of that onto the stage.

I don't believe anyone has ever denied the ability of Spirit Mages to do their jobs.  Anti magic wards, the ability to rip away a connection to mana, stasis and crushing, mmm.  Yes, a Spirit Mage / Templar alliance would be in the best interest for actual mage hunting.  If we can develop a more reliable means of resisting blood magic for the Templar, this pair becomes unbeatable.  And really, if anyone has a resistance against blood magic, it is going to be the Tevinter (or perhaps the Qunari).

[Silfren]

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...
You act as though Connor knew what he was doing when he summoned a demon.  But he makes it clear that he didn't know what she was, or that she was evil, until it was too late.  Don't forget that she was holding him hostage as much as everyone else.  His mistake was acting from a position of ignorance.

I see I should have spelled it out that I meant all things being equal, aside from Connor being a peasant instead of a noble.  It IS actually possible that Isolde could have hidden Connor's abilities and tried to find a blood mage tutor.  She'd have had a harder time of it, but that doesn't mean she might not have tried, or been successful.  But this is besides the point, which you tried to dodge here.  Your assertion has been NOT that it wouldn't have happened because a peasant COULDN'T do it, but that a peasant simply WOULDN'T.  On the idea apparently that peasants somehow are fundamentally different from nobles and no such commoner child would ever be so desperate to save his father's life that he wouldn't let his heart override his brain, no commoner child would fail to say to themselves, "Oh, but alas I alone do not suffer, but so do all children face a dying parent; woe be upon me for allowing myself to believe my pain unique!"  Because we all know that children the world over are renowned for objectivity.

Which is why we need a system that parents don't fear to send their children to.  It's an argument AGAINST the Circle system, not for it.

Which doesn't do a thing to address my point that Connor is not unique and you cannot claim that no peasant child would have reacted as he did out of the kind of desperation that only children can feel.

Yes, but I wanted an example of a child mage that was actually RELEVANT.  If someone asked me to make a relevant comparison between children, I certainly would not think a someone in his mid to late teens is comparable to someone no younger than six, no older than ten.  But age aside, Feynriel's position is not the same, so the example is not relevant.

I wasn't comparing their backgrounds, but their present troubles.  When I said that you cannot objectively say which has it worse I was referring specifically and ONLY to the specific instances of Feynriel's nightmares and Connor's fear of losing his father.  I repeat, you CANNOT objectify which has it worse. 

Maybe part of the problem is that I don't see Connor as the murderer, but as the unwitting tool of a murderer.  Connor didn't kill those people himself out of his own cold-bloodedness.  If we were talking about an adult who knew the dangers of screwing with the Fade and knew how dangerous demons were and what a risk it is to try to make deals with one, I'd be far less sympathetic.  But Connor was none of those things.  He wasn't a prideful adult with more ego than sense, he was a child who acted foolishly and unthinkingly out of a child's desperate attempt to save his father's life.  It is because Connor didn't mean any of those things and had no idea that those things would happen that I feel sympathy for him.  He's not a hard-bitten criminal who gleefully watched villagers die while he reveled in their misery.  So I DO think that his having to live with the guilt counts for something.  Anyway, again, I see Isolde as holding more of the blame here, because she's the one who put her son in this position.  Perhaps I've missed it, but you've yet to hold her responsible for a damn thing, from what I can see.  Why you consider her less to blame than the innocent boy is beyond me.[/quote]

If you don't get the "don't talk to strangers" vibe by ten, which is doubly impressed when your religion basically forces that strange mystical beings are not to be trusted.... well, if not for Connor's supposed accomplishments in Tevinter, I suppose you could argue for his mental capabilities being less than satisfactory.

You would be surprised. Fair enough though.  A peasant child would more likely wonder where their next meal would be coming from, or be already calloused to death by that point, being little more than a toy for the nobility and the armed.  Really, your father dying slowly of an illness is much more expensive than from a bandit raid; it would probably be more cost effective that way.  Heck, the kid you meet in Lothering perks right up once you give him a silver despite his mother being murdered behind him.[/quote]

.....

The kid didn't know his mother was dead, for god's sake.   Do you pay attention to to details at all??

[quote]Wow, "only children can feel"?  Seriously?  Children are tougher than you give them credit for; they aren't fragile sculptures of glass.[/quote]

I didn't say they were.  But I think it's both silly and stupid to suggest that children don't receive the world somewhat differently from adults, due to lacking adults' life experience.  On average children DO experience the potential loss of a dear one differently from adults, especially if its the first time they've ever been exposed to death.

[quote]Uh huh.  Well, we don't exactly have one of those, do we?  I gave you the other mage child and bam, look at that, no abomination.  But if you insist, Bethany (and Hawke) do not turn to demon summoning when their father goes missing or dies or whatever Malcom is up to.  Wynne doesn't summon a demon despite being locked in a barn with a very small amount of food.[/quote]

The Hawkes don't count, because one was an adult (albeit a young one) and the other was at least a teenager.  Not comparable to a boy Connor's age.  And Wynne' situation is still not what I would consider comparable to a boy terrified of losing his father, either.  You really suck at this whole comparison thing, you know?  But you don't seem to get it, even if you could point to examples of mages who didn't go summoning demons, that doesn't make a case for the notion that no peasants ever would try to do what Connor did, ever.  And you forget that Connor did NOT set out to "make a deal with Satan."  All available evidence indicates that he was seeking out someone to HELP him, he thought that someone who wanted to help him would be a good person, he wasn't trying to consciously make a deal with a demon because he thought it was okay to loose a demon on the village if it meant he got his Dad back.  Not until the damage was done did he realize he'd been conned by a demon.  It happens, you know?  When kids are so focused on saving someone they love they don't consider details.  Kids are good at being foolish like this.  It doesn't make them evil or selfish, it makes them KIDS.

[quote]Uh huh.  Well, in that case, being tormented nightly for, quite possibly, the rest of your life is objectively worse than your father dying.  Because, do you know what?  Both of their families are going to die.  Everyone they know is going to die.  It's a fact of life.  Getting tormented in your dreams is worse because it attacks you in a place where your body is supposed to rest and there's no evidence that it is healed by time.[/quote]

I repeat, suffering is subjective.  You cannot say that Feynriel's pain is worse, because that is only how YOU feel, it isn't necessarily how others would feel about the situation.  I could point to any number of people who would prefer to have pain inflicted on themselves, in any way, rather than have their loved ones suffer.  Pain is subjective and you will not ever be able to objectively measure one as worse than another.  Deal with it.

Hmm?  I was quite clear about holding Isolde responsible for her crime; hiding an apostate and harboring a maleficar.  Though I suppose I only specified one of those two earlier.  Those were the actions she took.  Connor is responsible for his own as well.  People died because of him.  This isn't a minor wound or something that be easily classified as an accident.  This isn't an accidental blast of fire in a town square.  Connor stole Jowan's books and performed a ritual to summon a demon (most likely with blood magic as I don't see how he can have access to lyrium).  This was a deliberate action of Connor, not an accident.  Everything that happens once he summoned the demon is his fault.  But next you'll place all the blame on Jowan for being a poor teacher or for not having his books locked up and tossed into a lake, I imagine.  Connor has the lion's share of the blame in this quest.
[/quote]

No, Connor doesn't.  Connor shares some blame, but he gets the LEAST amount.  No way do I see that he is somehow more responsible than the woman who set the events in motion in the first place for refusing to let him go for training.  Or the man who created the need in Connor to save his father by poisoning Eamon.  Etc.  The boy was as much a victim as everyone else, because he would never have been placed into that situation if the adults, who all DID know better, hadn't been idiots.

Yes, I do think Jowan was a ****** for leaving a book where an inexperienced and untrained mage could access it.  Why WOULDN'T that be a stupid thing for which to blame Jowan?

[Plaintiff]

Let's not forget that demons infiltrate dreams and create illusions. 

We have no idea how the situation looked from Connor's end of things. We don't know who he thought he was speaking to, or what he thought he was agreeing to. The desire demon more than likely appeared to him in the form of a familiar figure, maybe one of his own parents.

We see it happen firsthand with Feynriel. The demons appear to him in forms that are familiar to him, and speak to his deepest desires. He just barely escapes the demons that plague him, and only with outside assistance from the Keeper and Hawke, who can choose to make him tranquil or even help a demon to possess Feynriel. We don't know what would've happened to Feynriel without Hawke's intervention, so to compare Feynriel's actions to Connor's is nonsensical.

And let's not forget that in the exact same game where we met Connor, we also saw Wynne, who is a senior enchanter, and a full grown templar both succumb to demonic illusions, while many more templars in the Circle Tower were possessed directly.

Expecting Connor to resist a demon when many full-grown adults with special training failed to do so is the very height of unreasonable.

If anything, Connor's ability to shuck off the demon's influence for even short periods of time is a testament to his incredible strength of will.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 mars 2013 - 03:26 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Equal rigths imply equality between people. While it is true that there will always be differences between humans beings; at our most basic, we are all the same.
We all have muscles. Some are stronger but that's why we have machinery that allows the weakest man to lift things that weigh tons. Machinery that can be used by anyone, this is important.
Education can be learned. Money can be earned.

Magic, on the other hand, you are either born with it or you're not. And it's plainly obvious that magic extablishes an insurmountable distance between mundanes and mages. One can never learn to be a mage.
Mundanes and mages are, by nature, unequal therefore, our concept of equal rigths doesn't apply to them.

They're unequal because mundanes treat them unequally. It doesn't matter if the gulf between their respective capabilities is small or enormous.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 mars 2013 - 03:21 .

[dragonflight288]

I don't believe anyone has ever denied the ability of Spirit Mages to do their jobs. Anti magic wards, the ability to rip away a connection to mana, stasis and crushing, mmm. Yes, a Spirit Mage / Templar alliance would be in the best interest for actual mage hunting. If we can develop a more reliable means of resisting blood magic for the Templar, this pair becomes unbeatable. And really, if anyone has a resistance against blood magic, it is going to be the Tevinter (or perhaps the Qunari).

Why would the Qunari do that? They hate magic more than the Andrastians do and don't allow ANY form of magical research.

And Adralla, who was a Tevinter Magister, studied how to defend oneself from blood magic's mind domination effects, and was nearly assassinated over it. Tevinter doesn't want blood magic to be resisted because the most powerful magisters to the Archon rely on blood magic to justify their power. It isn't right, but that's the truth of it.

No, if there's any way to resist blood magic, it'll have to be done by either apostates or mages who have just freed themselves from the Chantry, and are now victims of a mass witch-hunt by the templars who rebelled against the Chantry as well so they can commit genocide.

On a side note, I doubt it'll be spirit mages who can do that, because the school of spirit's power revolves around the Fade and the spirits within, whereas blood magic isn't tied to the Fade at all, and is instead grounded in the physical world, per the Blood magic codex.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
They're unequal because mundanes treat them unequally. It doesn't matter if the gulf between their respective capabilities is small or enormous.

First of all, if we're going to point fingers, the first and most brutal human empire in history was built and controlled by mages. To this day, the mages of Tevinter can just slice open little mundane boys at parties to entertain the guests.
Mundanes and mages have treated each unequally other through all of Thedas' history and they will continue to treat each other unequally until the sun explodes because nature has made mundanes and mages unequal.
The person who can shoot fire, ligthing or ice from their hands; who can make others explode with a tap on the head; who can control their very thougths with a drop of blood is not equal to the person who can't. That is an objective fact.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
First of all, if we're going to point fingers, the first and most brutal human empire in history was built and controlled by mages. To this day, the mages of Tevinter can just slice open little mundane boys at parties to entertain the guests.

The fact that they were mages is totally irrelevent to the fact that they constructed a brutal empire. Plenty of brutal empires manage to exist without magic.

Mundanes and mages have treated each unequally other through all of Thedas' history and they will continue to treat each other unequally until the sun explodes because nature has made mundanes and mages unequal.
The person who can shoot fire, ligthing or ice from their hands; who can make others explode with a tap on the head; who can control their very thougths with a drop of blood is not equal to the person who can't. That is an objective fact.

Nonsense. The "inequality" between mage and non-mage is as arbitrary as inequality based on skin colour, or the ability to pee standing up. And choosing to discriminate against mages is no less bigoted than choosing to discriminate based on skin colour or gender.

There is no such thing as "natural" inequality, and it's certainly not objective. Equality is a human concept. It exists nowhere except in our own minds, and it's purely subjective. We always have the option to treat others with fairness and respect, regardless of any advantages or disadvantages they may possess.

Even if you accept "power" as the axiom on which your twisted concepts of equality are based, non-mages have been dominating every country besides Tevinter for the past thousand years, and non-mages kill mages all the time. So being a mage does not actually afford an individual with any "natural" advantages over non-mages.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 mars 2013 - 03:20 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
The fact that they were mages is totally irrelevent to the fact that they constructed a brutal empire. Plenty of brutal empires manage to exist without magic.

It is relevant when you extablish social norms that discriminate non-mages simply for being non-mages. While it is true that brutal empires exist without magic, it's also true that it was this advantage over their fellow man that allowed the magisters to take control of society and that it can happen again.

Nonsense. The "inequality" between mage and non-mage is as arbitrary as inequality based on skin colour, or the ability to pee standing up. And choosing to discriminate against mages is no less bigoted than choosing to discriminate based on skin colour or gender.

There is no such thing as "natural" inequality, and it's certainly not objective. Equality is a human concept. It exists nowhere except in our own minds, and it's purely subjective. We always have the option to treat others with fairness and respect, regardless of any advantages or disadvantages they may possess.

Tell you what, when having a ligther or darker skin tone allows you to fart lighting bolts, you'll have a point.

The matter of fact is that human being have always used our advantages to our benefit in expense of those we consider inferior and we will continue to do so until there are no human beings left.
How many species have we caused the extinction of because we believe that our advantage of intelligence makes us superior, makes our needs more relevant?

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
It is relevant when you extablish social norms that discriminate non-mages simply for being non-mages.

No it's not. It proves nothing except that some mages are terrible people, just like some people are terrible people.

People can discriminate for any reason.

While it is true that brutal empires exist without magic, it's also true that it was this advantage over their fellow man that allowed the magisters to take control of society and that it can happen again.

There's no reason whatsoever to believe that it would.

Nothing is stopping Germany from invading Poland tomorrow. And they did it before, so it's only a matter of time, right?

Tell you what, when having a ligther or darker skin tone allows you to fart lighting bolts, you'll have a point.

Seeing as how the mages are a disenfranchised and abused minority in every country outside of Tevinter, their powers clearly don't afford them any advantages at all.

The matter of fact is that human being have always used our advantages to our benefit in expense of those we consider inferior and we will continue to do so until there are no human beings left.
How many species have we caused the extinction of because we believe that our advantage of intelligence makes us superior, makes our needs more relevant?

By that logic, nobody should have any advatages ever, because in your twisted and cynical worldview, they'll immediatly use it to dominate others and TAKE OVER THE WORLD at the soonest opportunity.

Like back in the early 1900s, when the buyers of the first motor vehicles used that advantage to establish a brutal regime over the pedestrian caste. Can't believe I forgot that.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 mars 2013 - 03:38 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
No it's not. It proves nothing except that some mages are terrible people, just like some people are terrible people.

People can discriminate for any reason.

"Mundanes treat mages unequally."
"Mages have treated mundanes unequally as well"
"The fact that they were mages is irrelevant."
"It's relevant because the fact they used to set themselves above their fellow man was magic."
"That proves nothing."

C'mon, you're wrong on this one. Mundanes treat mages unequally, yes, but when the mages were in power; and still are in Tevinter; they also treated mundanes unequally. And just like mundanes now use magic as justification for this treatment, so did the mages.
That doesn't mean all mages are "evil".

There's no reason whatsoever to believe that it would.

Nothing is stopping Germany from invading Poland tomorrow. And they did it before, so it's only a matter of time, right?

You think that if Germany felt they had more to gain than to lose by invading Poland that they wouldn't do it?

You think that mages will not use magic to elevate their position in life?

By that logic, nobody should have any advatages ever, because in your twisted and cynical worldview, they'll immediatly use it to dominate others and TAKE OVER THE WORLD at the soonest opportunity.

Like back in the early 1900s, when the buyers of the first motor vehicles used that advantage to establish a brutal regime over the pedestrian caste. Can't believe I forgot that.

All technology in our world is usable by any human being regardless of gender, nationality or race. Education can be learned by all. Money can be earned by all.
While some are born in golden cribs and some are more talented at certain areas, there is nothing in our world today that some human beings can do that others can't because of biology.
How do you teach people to be mages? How do you cross that gap? How do you stop mundanes from becoming second class citizens?

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 mars 2013 - 03:48 .