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[Hazegurl]

I guess the only thing that would solve the Mage vs Templar war is to free all mages and let them do as they please and give all mundanes Templar training. It could be awesome living in a society filled with Lyrium addicts and blood mages.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

All technology in our world is usable by any human being regardless of gender, nationality or race. Education can be learned by all. Money can be earned by all.
While some are born in golden cribs and some are more talented at certain areas, there is nothing in our world today that some human beings can do that others can't because of biology.
How do you teach people to be mages? How do you cross that gap? How do you stop mundanes from becoming second class citizens?

Only in a technical, legal sense.  In reality, class issues are intricately tied up with all of those things, creating artificial barriers that can and DO prevent equality from being realized.  It is NOT true in the real world that everyone has access to all available technologies, education, or money-making opportunities.  A great many people's dreams have died before ever being realized, because they lacked certain advantages of race and class. 

You seem to be forgetting that there is considerable evidence in DA of a time when everyone had magic.  Elven lore speaks of a time when all elves were mages.  There's a lot of hints that magic was somehow tied in with the original Dwarven empire.  And of course there's Sandal's prophecy that someday the magic will come back...all of it.  The writers are hinting at SOMETHING about to unfold in the future.  So it may well be that people can be taught to be mages. 

I still say that the Chantry knows something about magic that the rest of us don't, because Templars are mages of a sort.  They have to have their abilities triggered through lyrium, but we all know that lyrium is closely connected to magic somehow.  Therein lies a hint that magic actually can be conferred upon someone, somehow. 

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

All technology in our world is usable by any human being regardless of gender, nationality or race. Education can be learned by all. Money can be earned by all.
While some are born in golden cribs and some are more talented at certain areas, there is nothing in our world today that some human beings can do that others can't because of biology.
How do you teach people to be mages? How do you cross that gap? How do you stop mundanes from becoming second class citizens?

Only in a technical, legal sense.  In reality, class issues are intricately tied up with all of those things, creating artificial barriers that can and DO prevent equality from being realized.  It is NOT true in the real world that everyone has access to all available technologies, education, or money-making opportunities.  A great many people's dreams have died before ever being realized, because they lacked certain advantages of race and class. 

You seem to be forgetting that there is considerable evidence in DA of a time when everyone had magic.  Elven lore speaks of a time when all elves were mages.  There's a lot of hints that magic was somehow tied in with the original Dwarven empire.  And of course there's Sandal's prophecy that someday the magic will come back...all of it.  The writers are hinting at SOMETHING about to unfold in the future.  So it may well be that people can be taught to be mages. 

I still say that the Chantry knows something about magic that the rest of us don't, because Templars are mages of a sort.  They have to have their abilities triggered through lyrium, but we all know that lyrium is closely connected to magic somehow.  Therein lies a hint that magic actually can be conferred upon someone, somehow. 

I'd add that templar abilities are only weaker versions of the school of spirit spells, and they're called different names. But the effect is exactly the same, only weaker, and the source may be exactly the same as well. Magic and mana from the Fade for the mage, and lyrium, which is magic in a raw mineral form, for the templar. Either way, it's magic.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Only in a technical, legal sense.  In reality, class issues are intricately tied up with all of those things, creating artificial barriers that can and DO prevent equality from being realized.  It is NOT true in the real world that everyone has access to all available technologies, education, or money-making opportunities.  A great many people's dreams have died before ever being realized, because they lacked certain advantages of race and class. 

All true. I certainly wouldn't claim that there is an abundance of real equality in our world but, the potential is still there. In this case, technicalities make all the difference. People have been known to come from nothing and becoming wealthy because they invented something people needed.
If the primary technologies that we rely upon everyday become magically based in Thedas, it will effectivelly set an upper and lower class that is extablished from birth and of which no one may even aspire to escape.
And with that also comes the death of justice because mages would just be able to bribe their way out of anything.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Equal rigths imply equality between people. While it is true that there will always be differences between humans beings; at our most basic, we are all the same.
We all have muscles. Some are stronger but that's why we have machinery that allows the weakest man to lift things that weigh tons. Machinery that can be used by anyone, this is important.
Education can be learned. Money can be earned.

Magic, on the other hand, you are either born with it or you're not. And it's plainly obvious that magic extablishes an insurmountable distance between mundanes and mages. One can never learn to be a mage.
Mundanes and mages are, by nature, unequal therefore, our concept of equal rigths doesn't apply to them.

They're unequal because mundanes treat them unequally. It doesn't matter if the gulf between their respective capabilities is small or enormous.

No they are unequal because they are not equal.  Base capability doesn't factor into whether or not people are equal for us because the gap is insignificant.  Nobody is born with any insurmountable advantage, we all start on relatively the same level.  Some people can go further than others because they have money, access to better training/education, healthcare, etc. or even just a better work ethic, but we all start at basically the same point.  The mage/mundane gap is insurmountable, no amount of money or hard work is going to bridge that gap, the best they've been able to do in Thedas is shorten the gap through lyrium injestion and training, at an unsustainable personal cost.  Maybe in the future that gap will vanish because there won't be any mundanes but until then it's not something you can just brush aside as irrellevant.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 15 mars 2013 - 08:42 .

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Why would the Qunari do that? They hate magic more than the Andrastians do and don't allow ANY form of magical research.

And Adralla, who was a Tevinter Magister, studied how to defend oneself from blood magic's mind domination effects, and was nearly assassinated over it. Tevinter doesn't want blood magic to be resisted because the most powerful magisters to the Archon rely on blood magic to justify their power. It isn't right, but that's the truth of it.

No, if there's any way to resist blood magic, it'll have to be done by either apostates or mages who have just freed themselves from the Chantry, and are now victims of a mass witch-hunt by the templars who rebelled against the Chantry as well so they can commit genocide.

On a side note, I doubt it'll be spirit mages who can do that, because the school of spirit's power revolves around the Fade and the spirits within, whereas blood magic isn't tied to the Fade at all, and is instead grounded in the physical world, per the Blood magic codex.

Because their major enemy for the past X years has been a fan of blood magic.  As in, they rely on the blood of slaves to fuel their war.  While the Qunari may hate magic, they're quite militarized and I can't imagine them not considering a defense against it. 

Yes, but Spirit Mages still have the ability to cancel magic.  Anti-magic ward still keeps out BM, if I recall correctly.  Mana Clash also devestates mages regardless of what sort of magic is being used (and it's best used at the beginning~).

Uh, forgive me, but there should really be only one or two groups of mages actively fighting.  Libertarians & Aequarians, maybe can fight, but Loyalists should stick with the Chantry, Isolationists should be running and Lucresians should be trying to get in good with rulers.  The three latter groups have much less to worry about.

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...
.....

The kid didn't know his mother was dead, for god's sake.   Do you pay attention to to details at all??

I didn't say they were.  But I think it's both silly and stupid to suggest that children don't receive the world somewhat differently from adults, due to lacking adults' life experience.  On average children DO experience the potential loss of a dear one differently from adults, especially if its the first time they've ever been exposed to death.

The Hawkes don't count, because one was an adult (albeit a young one) and the other was at least a teenager.  Not comparable to a boy Connor's age.  And Wynne' situation is still not what I would consider comparable to a boy terrified of losing his father, either.  You really suck at this whole comparison thing, you know?  But you don't seem to get it, even if you could point to examples of mages who didn't go summoning demons, that doesn't make a case for the notion that no peasants ever would try to do what Connor did, ever.  And you forget that Connor did NOT set out to "make a deal with Satan."  All available evidence indicates that he was seeking out someone to HELP him, he thought that someone who wanted to help him would be a good person, he wasn't trying to consciously make a deal with a demon because he thought it was okay to loose a demon on the village if it meant he got his Dad back.  Not until the damage was done did he realize he'd been conned by a demon.  It happens, you know?  When kids are so focused on saving someone they love they don't consider details.  Kids are good at being foolish like this.  It doesn't make them evil or selfish, it makes them KIDS.

I repeat, suffering is subjective.  You cannot say that Feynriel's pain is worse, because that is only how YOU feel, it isn't necessarily how others would feel about the situation.  I could point to any number of people who would prefer to have pain inflicted on themselves, in any way, rather than have their loved ones suffer.  Pain is subjective and you will not ever be able to objectively measure one as worse than another.  Deal with it.

No, Connor doesn't.  Connor shares some blame, but he gets the LEAST amount.  No way do I see that he is somehow more responsible than the woman who set the events in motion in the first place for refusing to let him go for training.  Or the man who created the need in Connor to save his father by poisoning Eamon.  Etc.  The boy was as much a victim as everyone else, because he would never have been placed into that situation if the adults, who all DID know better, hadn't been idiots.

Yes, I do think Jowan was a ****** for leaving a book where an inexperienced and untrained mage could access it.  Why WOULDN'T that be a stupid thing for which to blame Jowan?

Yes, but he finds out shortly after, if the Chanter board is any indication.  And because we don't find his body out among the wolves and bears and spiders, we can safely say that he did not go on a mad quest for vengence.  And he still has a whole silver.

Inexperience of life is no excuse for Connor's actions.  Do you know what most people of all ages have an issue with?  Being horribly murdered.

Are there any other child mages that count for you?  We have stories about Wynne, we have the Hawkes and we have our Dreamer.   We don't know enough about the rest of them that would properly fit , so I'm sorry the pool of comparisons is so small and you take issue with every single one of them because they might be a few years older. 
Hey, you said it yourself, kids are quite driven when they want to be.  I'm sure Connor wouldn't care at all about the people that he was supposed to rule over one day so long as his father doesn't die.  You're making an assumption that he looked for good things, when, if you're right, it's more than likely he looked for anything.  Like I said, road to hell come from good intentions, and Connor passed by the last exit a while back.

Uh huh.  Well, considering that Connor was feeling just so hard about this, in a way that only children could, I'm sure he felt very bad about his father.  But, from an objective standpoint, being tormented for your entire life is so, so much worse than losing a loved one, the same way I can say losing an arm is worse than a papercut.  One pain will go away or at least dull over time, another pain comes for you every night, unrelenting.

Connor, more or less, found a gun, pointed it at a person and pulled the trigger.  Yes, there is fault on the person who left it there, but Connor is the murderer, not Jowan, not Isolde, not even Loghain.  Connor takes the lion share of the blame for his wretched slaughter in Redcliffe.

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Silfren wrote...
.....

The kid didn't know his mother was dead, for god's sake.   Do you pay attention to to details at all??

I didn't say they were.  But I think it's both silly and stupid to suggest that children don't receive the world somewhat differently from adults, due to lacking adults' life experience.  On average children DO experience the potential loss of a dear one differently from adults, especially if its the first time they've ever been exposed to death.

The Hawkes don't count, because one was an adult (albeit a young one) and the other was at least a teenager.  Not comparable to a boy Connor's age.  And Wynne' situation is still not what I would consider comparable to a boy terrified of losing his father, either.  You really suck at this whole comparison thing, you know?  But you don't seem to get it, even if you could point to examples of mages who didn't go summoning demons, that doesn't make a case for the notion that no peasants ever would try to do what Connor did, ever.  And you forget that Connor did NOT set out to "make a deal with Satan."  All available evidence indicates that he was seeking out someone to HELP him, he thought that someone who wanted to help him would be a good person, he wasn't trying to consciously make a deal with a demon because he thought it was okay to loose a demon on the village if it meant he got his Dad back.  Not until the damage was done did he realize he'd been conned by a demon.  It happens, you know?  When kids are so focused on saving someone they love they don't consider details.  Kids are good at being foolish like this.  It doesn't make them evil or selfish, it makes them KIDS.

I repeat, suffering is subjective.  You cannot say that Feynriel's pain is worse, because that is only how YOU feel, it isn't necessarily how others would feel about the situation.  I could point to any number of people who would prefer to have pain inflicted on themselves, in any way, rather than have their loved ones suffer.  Pain is subjective and you will not ever be able to objectively measure one as worse than another.  Deal with it.

No, Connor doesn't.  Connor shares some blame, but he gets the LEAST amount.  No way do I see that he is somehow more responsible than the woman who set the events in motion in the first place for refusing to let him go for training.  Or the man who created the need in Connor to save his father by poisoning Eamon.  Etc.  The boy was as much a victim as everyone else, because he would never have been placed into that situation if the adults, who all DID know better, hadn't been idiots.

Yes, I do think Jowan was a ****** for leaving a book where an inexperienced and untrained mage could access it.  Why WOULDN'T that be a stupid thing for which to blame Jowan?

Yes, but he finds out shortly after, if the Chanter board is any indication.  And because we don't find his body out among the wolves and bears and spiders, we can safely say that he did not go on a mad quest for vengence.  And he still has a whole silver.

Inexperience of life is no excuse for Connor's actions.  Do you know what most people of all ages have an issue with?  Being horribly murdered.

Are there any other child mages that count for you?  We have stories about Wynne, we have the Hawkes and we have our Dreamer.   We don't know enough about the rest of them that would properly fit , so I'm sorry the pool of comparisons is so small and you take issue with every single one of them because they might be a few years older. 
Hey, you said it yourself, kids are quite driven when they want to be.  I'm sure Connor wouldn't care at all about the people that he was supposed to rule over one day so long as his father doesn't die.  You're making an assumption that he looked for good things, when, if you're right, it's more than likely he looked for anything.  Like I said, road to hell come from good intentions, and Connor passed by the last exit a while back.

Uh huh.  Well, considering that Connor was feeling just so hard about this, in a way that only children could, I'm sure he felt very bad about his father.  But, from an objective standpoint, being tormented for your entire life is so, so much worse than losing a loved one, the same way I can say losing an arm is worse than a papercut.  One pain will go away or at least dull over time, another pain comes for you every night, unrelenting.

Connor, more or less, found a gun, pointed it at a person and pulled the trigger.  Yes, there is fault on the person who left it there, but Connor is the murderer, not Jowan, not Isolde, not even Loghain.  Connor takes the lion share of the blame for his wretched slaughter in Redcliffe.

Each of your arguments fails for being either unreasonable, inapplicable, or just plain stupid. Your comparisons are invalid because you apparently don't know how to make a proper analogy, and you think young, sheltered kids are exactly like experienced adults, and your reading comprehension sucks a*s. Go annoy someone else with your inane attempt at proper arguments.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Only in a technical, legal sense.  In reality, class issues are intricately tied up with all of those things, creating artificial barriers that can and DO prevent equality from being realized.  It is NOT true in the real world that everyone has access to all available technologies, education, or money-making opportunities.  A great many people's dreams have died before ever being realized, because they lacked certain advantages of race and class. 

All true. I certainly wouldn't claim that there is an abundance of real equality in our world but, the potential is still there. In this case, technicalities make all the difference. People have been known to come from nothing and becoming wealthy because they invented something people needed.
If the primary technologies that we rely upon everyday become magically based in Thedas, it will effectivelly set an upper and lower class that is extablished from birth and of which no one may even aspire to escape.
And with that also comes the death of justice because mages would just be able to bribe their way out of anything.

And Thedas's nobles don't? High Ranking templars are held under proper scrutiny and the Lord High Seeker Lambert follows all the rules for fear of punishment if he breaks any?

[MisterJB]

I fail to see how giving magical powers to Rendon Howe or chevaliers would help.

[BlueMagitek]

Dragonflight, the world has, in real life, managed to actually drag itself out of the dark state that the Dragon Age world is in.  Even the Dwarves have a Casteless - > Nobility route.   Things can chance.  You need to believe.

Silfren wrote...

Each of your arguments fails for being either unreasonable, inapplicable, or just plain stupid. Your comparisons are invalid because you apparently don't know how to make a proper analogy, and you think young, sheltered kids are exactly like experienced adults, and your reading comprehension sucks a*s. Go annoy someone else with your inane attempt at proper arguments.

Well excuse me for attempting to hold someone to a standard.  However, I'm afraid that your argument is too old for this topic and it has gone through things that would completely change it around. ~_^

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Why would the Qunari do that? They hate magic more than the Andrastians do and don't allow ANY form of magical research.

Not strictly accurate. When they laid siege to Kirkwall during the Storm Age -- or whatever the 7th Age was -- their Mages showed an unparalleled level of sorcery that helped to conquer the City of Chains. While it's true that just 100 years prior their Mages were pretty weak, they soon learned to slowly advance their magic to be more formidable.

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Why would the Qunari do that? They hate magic more than the Andrastians do and don't allow ANY form of magical research.

Not strictly accurate. When they laid siege to Kirkwall during the Storm Age -- or whatever the 7th Age was -- their Mages showed an unparalleled level of sorcery that helped to conquer the City of Chains. While it's true that just 100 years prior their Mages were pretty weak, they soon learned to slowly advance their magic to be more formidable.

Ah. Forgot about that.

[dragonflight288]

Dragonflight, the world has, in real life, managed to actually drag itself out of the dark state that the Dragon Age world is in. Even the Dwarves have a Casteless - > Nobility route. Things can chance. You need to believe. smilie

Only after several revolutions. America revolted against Britain and King George, France had several revolutions, and some countries today STILL try to be dictators and commit genocide, with practices of sexism as part of their culture and religion. And many countries in North Africa and the Middle East are going through revolution after revolution, a lot of blood is being spilled, dictators rise and fall, and nothing has gotten better. Things are actually getting worse in that area.

I'm generally an optimist, but I'm realistic enough to know that if you give one group all the power and they have it for any length of time, they will never willingly give it up. And if they have it long enough, they believe they deserve it, whether by divine right or simply because they're entitled to it by virtue of having had it for so long.

And Andraste didn't free the south with a strongly worded letter.

Now I'm not advocating revolution, but the games and the book Asunder have made it clear that it was the templars who forced things to get out of hand by trying to punish all mages for the actions of a few, and the mages have had enough and declared independence after there was an illegal attempt to kill all the First Enchanter by the Lord High Seeker...whose job is to investigate templars.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Only after several revolutions. America revolted against Britain and King George, France had several revolutions, and some countries today STILL try to be dictators and commit genocide, with practices of sexism as part of their culture and religion. And many countries in North Africa and the Middle East are going through revolution after revolution, a lot of blood is being spilled, dictators rise and fall, and nothing has gotten better. Things are actually getting worse in that area.

I'm generally an optimist, but I'm realistic enough to know that if you give one group all the power and they have it for any length of time, they will never willingly give it up. And if they have it long enough, they believe they deserve it, whether by divine right or simply because they're entitled to it by virtue of having had it for so long.

And Andraste didn't free the south with a strongly worded letter.

Now I'm not advocating revolution, but the games and the book Asunder have made it clear that it was the templars who forced things to get out of hand by trying to punish all mages for the actions of a few, and the mages have had enough and declared independence after there was an illegal attempt to kill all the First Enchanter by the Lord High Seeker...whose job is to investigate templars.

Yes, and your point is?  It's unlikely there will ever be a utopia, and much less likely that the PC in a Dragon Age game will result in one.   And no, there will be revolutions against the nobility at some point, but that's just bound to happen; sit back and enjoy the ride.

From my understanding:
DA:O - Tower is going to be annulled for an outbreak of abominations.  It must be difficult to tell a blood mage from a normal mage, as we can send the "saved" blood mage down the tower and we don't hear anything about her.  The vast majority of the mages are either dead, abominations, or being turned into abominations.  An annullment is completely justified.  That, and Gregoire will gladly accept Irving's word that everything is cool.

DA:2  - The fault can mostly be put on Meredith's head, though there is blame on Orsino's (being a decent enough blood mage to transform into a Harvester, supporting blood mage research throughout the city) and Elthina's parts (not doing enough to investigate Meredith's actions or putting a stop to some of them) as well.  But that's not the entire Templar Order at all and, given the amount of blood mages in the Circle, it wouldn't be impossible to justify an annullment.

Asunder:  I haven't read it, but from my understanding the mages are protecting a murderer from justice and one of them goes out of her way to purposefully ruin everything.  I heard Lambert is kind of an ass, but still, not entirely the Templar's fault if so.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Now I'm not advocating revolution, but the games and the book Asunder have made it clear that it was the templars who forced things to get out of hand by trying to punish all mages for the actions of a few, and the mages have had enough and declared independence after there was an illegal attempt to kill all the First Enchanter by the Lord High Seeker...whose job is to investigate templars.

Did you read Asunder? Because that was not what happened at all.
Lambert didn't attempt to kill anyone. He captured the First Enchanters and imprisioned them. If he had wanted them dead, it was as easy as walk into their cells and stab them.
He did order his men to attack but there are other factors at work here. For one, we must remember that the fact tensions were so high was largely because of Anders' terrorist actions. Second, when Fiona demanded the conclave vote on the spot whether they should separate from the Chantry, it served as proof of what Lambert believed all along: that if you give mages some lenience, they will want more and more until they're the ones in charge. He believes this because he saw it happen in Tevinter and was betrayed by his best friend, a mage. Maybe Fiona should have worked with Wynne and Justinia rather than attempt to take advantage of their goodwill?
Third, the only reason he interrupted the conclave in the first place was because Adrian had murdered the very subject being discussed there, Pharamond, exactly to cause that reaction.

I don't approve of Lambert's actions because they caused more harm than good but you can't just wash the mage's hands clean.
And I keep repeating this. Seekers are not meant just to investigate templars, they are also meant to solve cases Templars can't. Lambert was there, in the first place, to deal with the murders of mages in the tower.
Who caused those murder? Rhys who was being controlled by a demon. Who did the mages protect to the end despite there being overwhelming evidence of their culpability? Rhys.

Is it wrong for templars to distrust mages but alright if the mages distrust templars?

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 mars 2013 - 03:09 .

[BlueMagitek]

^To be fair, Templars tend to choose their position (aside from the orphans who kind of get put onto that track), while Mages must be there. So holding Templar to a higher standard is perfectly fine for me. And the default Templar attitude should be vigilance, but not distrust. A Knight Commander like Gregoire, who is on the lookout for blood magic is far superior than Meredith who, understandably, trusts that mages will turn to it.

I mean, Gregoire allowed Blood Magic books in the main library and they were only removed by Irving once there was a problem.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...
And I keep repeating this. Seekers are not meant just to investigate templars, they are also meant to solve cases Templars can't. Lambert was there, in the first place, to deal with the murders of mages in the tower.
Who caused those murder? Rhys who was being controlled by a demon. Who did the mages protect to the end despite there being overwhelming evidence of their culpability? Rhys.

Nitpick:  Rhys was NOT the one committing the murders, while being controlled by Cole.  That was entirely Cole's doing, with nothing to do with Rhys.  It's been over a year since I read Asunder and I don't have the book where I can check, but I'm pretty sure on that point (though if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone'll correct me).  Hell, we don't even really understand what Cole is.  No, I don't think the Lord Seeker is 100% right on this front, not given what we witnessed from Cole's own perspective.

Modifié par Silfren, 17 mars 2013 - 07:28 .

[Silfren]

Double post oops

Modifié par Silfren, 17 mars 2013 - 07:24 .

[Angrywolves]

no. it was bound to happen.

[Silfren]

Angrywolves wrote...

no. it was bound to happen.

I never have understood this reasoning.  Things don't just up and happen for no reason.  They are CAUSED.  Especially in a situation where certain outcomes are deemed inevitable, or "bound to happen."  So saying that Elthina wasn't to blame because Kirkwall's tensions were bound to implode sooner or later just doens't make a damn lick of sense. 

Elthina is the one who had the previous Viscount tried and imprisoned (and it is possible she was behind that Viscount's poisoning...who was better placed to do it?)  She allowed Meredith's ascension to Knight Commander.  She turned a blind eye to Meredith's abuses and the rising tensions.  Ultimately, she quite literally said and did nothing while Meredith deliberately blocked the appointment of a new Viscount. 

She may not carry sole blame, but she absolutely is one of the causes behind Kirkwall's destruction.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Nitpick:  Rhys was NOT the one committing the murders, while being controlled by Cole.  That was entirely Cole's doing, with nothing to do with Rhys.  It's been over a year since I read Asunder and I don't have the book where I can check, but I'm pretty sure on that point (though if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone'll correct me).  Hell, we don't even really understand what Cole is.  No, I don't think the Lord Seeker is 100% right on this front, not given what we witnessed from Cole's own perspective.

Lord Seeker Lambert has good arguments. The murders only started after Rhys made contact with Cole despite, by the demon's own admission, he having been in the tower for years. Cole was, apparently, able to follow four people on horses on foot while keeping himself hidden from Rhys except when this one specifically looked for Cole. At the end of the book, Rhys admits to Evangeline he thinks he commited all those murders.
Cole's perspective is not reliable due to the fact he doesn't even understand what he is. He remembers having a mother and being brought to the Circle despite being a creature of the Fade and not the real Cole. If his mind controlling powers extend even to himself, who's to say he didn't control Rhys to murder without even realizing it?

[Rinshikai10]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Nitpick:  Rhys was NOT the one committing the murders, while being controlled by Cole.  That was entirely Cole's doing, with nothing to do with Rhys.  It's been over a year since I read Asunder and I don't have the book where I can check, but I'm pretty sure on that point (though if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone'll correct me).  Hell, we don't even really understand what Cole is.  No, I don't think the Lord Seeker is 100% right on this front, not given what we witnessed from Cole's own perspective.

Lord Seeker Lambert has good arguments. The murders only started after Rhys made contact with Cole despite, by the demon's own admission, he having been in the tower for years. Cole was, apparently, able to follow four people on horses on foot while keeping himself hidden from Rhys except when this one specifically looked for Cole. At the end of the book, Rhys admits to Evangeline he thinks he commited all those murders.
Cole's perspective is not reliable due to the fact he doesn't even understand what he is. He remembers having a mother and being brought to the Circle despite being a creature of the Fade and not the real Cole. If his mind controlling powers extend even to himself, who's to say he didn't control Rhys to murder without even realizing it?

Just to add my two cents I recall at the end of the book, the spirit that thought it was Cole returns to Lambert and informs him about the real Coles demise. Which was a result of him starving to death because the Templars forgot about him. Then when they did remember, Coles name was removed from the records to hide the Orders incompetence.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Nitpick:  Rhys was NOT the one committing the murders, while being controlled by Cole.  That was entirely Cole's doing, with nothing to do with Rhys.  It's been over a year since I read Asunder and I don't have the book where I can check, but I'm pretty sure on that point (though if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone'll correct me).  Hell, we don't even really understand what Cole is.  No, I don't think the Lord Seeker is 100% right on this front, not given what we witnessed from Cole's own perspective.

Lord Seeker Lambert has good arguments. The murders only started after Rhys made contact with Cole despite, by the demon's own admission, he having been in the tower for years. Cole was, apparently, able to follow four people on horses on foot while keeping himself hidden from Rhys except when this one specifically looked for Cole. At the end of the book, Rhys admits to Evangeline he thinks he commited all those murders.
Cole's perspective is not reliable due to the fact he doesn't even understand what he is. He remembers having a mother and being brought to the Circle despite being a creature of the Fade and not the real Cole. If his mind controlling powers extend even to himself, who's to say he didn't control Rhys to murder without even realizing it?

Finally put my hand on Asunder and read the passage in question.  You're right that Rhys thinks he killed those people.  However, the stress should be on the fact that he says he THINKS he killed them.  In the very same passage, Evangeline herself points out that she saw the same things that Rhys did in regards to Cole, and doesn't herself believe any of it was a lie.  She also points out that Rhys shouldn't make assumptions.  The overall point is that nothing whatsoever can be concluded.  It is NOT a given that Rhys killed those people while being controlled, just as it isn't a given that Cole is a demon.  Everything about Cole was left purposely ambiguous, and there's a reason for that. 

Personally I expect we'll see Cole in DA3, or if not him, almost certainly Rhys.  Either way I expect we'll hear more about him in the next installment, and due to the very fact that we are left asking questions about what Cole is and what his existence means for understanding the Fade, I'm positive that the assumption that he was precisely what Lambert said he was, will prove to be wrong, if only because it would be very bad, sloppy writing to have intoduced a character like Cole that throws existing knowledge and assumptions into question, just to have it all be pointless.