523 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

One shouldn't be punished just for being a blood mage, just as my Warden didn't deserved being punished for being a blood mage seeing as all the good she did with blood magic. It's what you do with that power that should matter and effect what trouble you get in, not just using the power at all. Blood magic should be like gun licenses, where only a mage who has been shown to have great self control and the proper moral base to use is properly should be allowed to learn it. Make it heavily restricted for learning, but not outright banned. A mage or 2 who everyone knows is a blood mage in the tower would be more helpful then not. Them being a known commodity, someone everyone knows has blood magic including the Templars, would make any risk far lesser. Blood mages are only truly dangerous when you keep it secret to release unexpectedly (like Jowan did to escape the tower) and can subtly influence people. A known blood mage that everyone KNOWS is one will be much more restricted just by virtue that everyone knows what you can do and you would be one of the first suspects if something bad happened. A legally certified blood mage would be most helpful at catching uncertified in the circle because they would know what to look for, and their blood magic would make them a better match to stop them if they try to escape better then any templar could. The best way to investigate and defeat illegal blood mages is to use legal ones to help bring them in. It's either that or you get blood mages that no one knows quite what signs to look for or how to combat them. Allowed but restricted is a better way to handle it then outright banning. Blood mages will happen illegal or not, but legal but restricted would lessen the damage... But good luck getting the stubborn chantry to even consider the idea.

[MisterJB]

There are already sanctioned blood mages under the Chantry. You can find tomes of Enchanters who were given permission to study demons and then, of course, there are the pylacteries, both of these would require some measure of blood magic.
Those who sould be punished are blood mages who where not sanctioned by the Chantry but rather learned it in secret.

But I would not trust mages with policing another mages. "Signs to look for" are something tha can be learned through books, just leave it to the templars.
If you would like to know why, asks the elves how well humans policing humans has worked out for them.

[andy6915]

Like templars policing templars without oversight? Ask mages how well that worked out for them.

[MisterJB]

Kirkwall does not represent the reality of the other Circles.
But yes, exactly.

[katattax]

MisterJB wrote...

In fact, most of the blood mages we see in Act 3 show no sign of having turned to blood magic because of Meredith at all. The blood mage gangs speak of taking over Kirkwall, not freedom and, say, Evelian was perverted by what she saw happen to her children, not abuse from the templars.

Actually, one of her kids says she went to the Circle to get help for them and they just said, "oh, a mage, here's your cell, bye!" She escaped so she could help the kids, templars chased her down and, well, you know the rest. If they'd done more than lock her up then maybe that all could've been avoided.

[MisterJB]

Perhaps but what exactly did she expect? For the templars of Kirkwall to look after every child the Blight orphaned?
Evelina illustrates a good point about the dangers of magic. Life is hard, we often see people resorting to crime in order to survive. What happens when it's the mages who find themselves in such a position and have things like Mind Control at their disposal?

[Siharaa]

I can't remember who it was but someone points out that the Joining is blood magic.

[andy6915]

Hell, using phylacteries is blood magic. Of course there's a snowball's chance in a hell of the Chantry ever admitting THAT one.

@Mister JB (I'm sorry, but I keep thinking "mister jailbait" when I see your name)

And what I've proposing wouldn't have just mages policing mages. I said the certified blood mage or 2 of the tower would work in conjunction with the Templars toward the common goal of making sure there's no non-certified blood mages in the circle. It wouldn't be just the blood mage or just the Templars, it would be both working together. Think of how first enchanter Irving and the knight commander were, working together for the sake of the circle and keeping it under control. Yes they disagreed a fair bit and did sometimes do things the other really doesn't like (waiting to catch Jowan so the Chantry sister would be caught too, which resulted in him escaping), but still ultimately on the same side when it came to blood magic and such.

I guess you could say that the blood mage would be almost something of a Templar agent, one they employ to HELP them watch for other mages doing anything illegal. I said HELP, which means making the Templars job more effective by working with them, NOT doing their job for them entirely. Sure, it probably does diminish the role of Templars a bit and raises mage role, but that's a good thing if you ask me. The Templars have too much power as it is, and making their role more on the level of mages would be a good system of checks and balances. Neither side could get too much power because both would have it in their best interest to not allow the other group to gain too much. It would be less "prison warden>prisoner" or less "slave owner>slave" then the current circle system is, and would make it more an effort of co-operation where both sides have a real say in things. This would lessen the Templars crazy political power while making mages feel less oppressed and under the thumb of Templars.

[MisterJB]

Andy: In theory, I don't disagree with anything you are suggesting. A joint force of templars and mages working together while keeping each other in check is probrably the closest anyone can come to an ideal solution. I simply don't believe it is feasible.

Here are two situations I feel are likely to occur.
1- This join force can never agree on what should be done, on the amount of leniency that should be shown, etc which would lead to having the templars and mages at each other's throats before long.

2-Mages are allowed to help police other mages and it actually works out rather well. Afterall, it is easier to train mages to fight other mages than training templars to the same level.
So, we depend more and more on the mage's protection and it works out well for a generation or two because the mages still fear mundane reprisal should they fail in their duties.
Then suddenly, it's five generations later, the task of policing mages has ben relegated entirely to other mages who have gradually come to turn a blind eye to crimes commited against mundanes.

[andy6915]

So you're only argument is a slippery slope fallacy? That the mages will INEVITABILITY get all the power between the 2? I don't believe that, and slippery slopes are never good arguments to sway me on an issue.

[MisterJB]

I have considered a possible outcome of the solution you suggested and then presented a justification as to why I believe it will come to pass.
If you are not swayed by it, that's fine, but, likewise, simply saying you don't believe it will happen is not an argument.

[andy6915]

You're not backing up what you say either. You have no more evidence for the slope you mentioned happening then I do at it not happening. We're at an impasse.

[MisterJB]

Fundamented speculation is recognized as a legitimate argument.
Magic, due to its many applications, is an extremely valuable and desirable natural resource. Even in Adrastean nations, mankind already depends far too much on magic such as using glowstones to illuminate the streets of Val-Royeaux or using magic fireballs to counter other cultures like the qunari who have developed gunpowder.
Unfortunately, unlike gunpowder that is universally usable, magic is acessible only to a priviliged few and, should magic take over the infrastucture of a society much like what happened in Tevinter, human greed and selfishness dictates that those born without magic will become second class citizens.
One of the uses of magic is, of course, as a provider of security. Therefore, it is logical for, in a society of free mages, magic users to be preferred over mundanes which would lead to either a disproportionate number of mages being chosen as enforces of law over mundanes or to be selected for important positions while mundanes are relegated to stopping people from stepping on grass.
As human history as shown, groups of people tend to ignore crimes commited by members of said group against members of different groups.

[katattax]

MisterJB wrote...

Perhaps but what exactly did she expect? For the templars of Kirkwall to look after every child the Blight orphaned?
Evelina illustrates a good point about the dangers of magic. Life is hard, we often see people resorting to crime in order to survive. What happens when it's the mages who find themselves in such a position and have things like Mind Control at their disposal?

I always thought the Chantry was supposed to help the less fortunate. In any case, she turned to blood magic when the templars were hunting her down. She'd lived quite awhile without resorting to it and helped a lot of people along the way. It was only when she was forced to abandon the children she was helping that it all went horribly wrong. I'm not sure what the ideal solution is but, in this situation at least, the heavy hand of the templars only made things worse.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If templars are hunting a mage down for being an apostate, I'd imagine they would be a primary antagonist for a
mage in that situation. The Hawke family certainly needed to stay one step ahead of the templars. 

The Hawke family never used blood magic to escape templars until the player takes the reins.

Except the Hawke family did need to stay one step ahead of the templars, and since templars can nulify the abilities of a mage who uses ordinary magic, it's possible Malcolm, Hawke, and Bethany may have been killed unless they had an advantage against the templars, such as a form of magic the templars couldn't shut down - such as blood magic. It's why some mages might turn to blood magic.

MisterJB wrote...

Are you missing the point or simply ignoring it? There are countless situations in the real world that could convince a mage to abuse his powers without any templars being involved.

There are mages who will abuse their powers, just like there are templars who will abuse their religious power and authority over others. I'm certain everyone is aware of this.

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Thankfully, there aren't thousands of other situations that could lead to an otherwise honest mage using blood magic, never mind the not so honest ones. 

Of course there are. Finn used blood magic to locate an Eluvian, for example.

And Merrill removing the barrier leading up Mt. Sundermount. Or cleansing the eluvian shard, thus curing it of the taint, making it no longer dangerous.

And Connor used it to summon an army of undead; Danarius killed a little boy to fuel his blood magic because he tought it was fun; Quentin killed  innocent.women and used blood magic on them because he couldn't stand to live without his wife. 

While templars have also done bad things. We know templars tortured a child hunter of the Dalish because they were searching for Feynriel; Kerras makes it clear he wants to rape a female Hawke, and will rape Alain with the threat of tranquility; Alrik threatens to rape child mage Ella and has apparently raped other women after making them tranquil; a death squad of templars murder people with impunity in broad daylight; and templars carry out Meredith's order to execution of hundreds of men, women, and children for the actions of one single apostate standing right in front of her.

In other words, mages and templars can do bad things. That isn't persuading me to think that templars should have "dominion over mages by divine right".

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 janvier 2013 - 05:47 .

[MisterJB]

katattax wrote...
I always thought the Chantry was supposed to help the less fortunate. In any case, she turned to blood magic when the templars were hunting her down. She'd lived quite awhile without resorting to it and helped a lot of people along the way. It was only when she was forced to abandon the children she was helping that it all went horribly wrong. I'm not sure what the ideal solution is but, in this situation at least, the heavy hand of the templars only made things worse.

We do see a Mother trying to raise funds for the helpless in Hightown.
Anyway, Avelina became an Abomination because of her Desire to see her children have a better life and her Rage at seeing their suffering; suffering the Templars did not contribute to. Perhaps the Templars didn't help but chances are it would have happened regardless.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except the Hawke family did need to stay one step ahead of the templars, and since templars can nulify the abilities of a mage who uses ordinary magic, it's possible Malcolm, Hawke, and Bethany may have been killed unless they had an advantage against the templars, such as a form of magic the templars couldn't shut down - such as blood magic. It's why some mages might turn to blood magic.

If they didn't turn to blood magic, most templars would just return them to the Circle. Anders was brought back seven times exactly because all he did was escape.
They are forcing the templar's hands. And you will tell me that simply wanting to take them back to the Circle is forcing the mage's hands which I will disagree with.
And the Hawke family never used blood magic, anyway.

There are mages who will abuse their powers, just like there are templars who will abuse their religious power and authority over others. I'm certain everyone is aware of this.

While templars have also done bad things. We know templars tortured a child hunter of the Dalish because they were searching for Feynriel; Kerras makes it clear he wants to rape a female Hawke, and will rape Alain with the threat of tranquility; Alrik threatens to rape child mage Ella and has apparently raped other women after making them tranquil; a death squad of templars murder people with impunity in broad daylight; and templars carry out Meredith's order to execution of hundreds of men, women, and children for the actions of one single apostate standing right in front of her.

In other words, mages and templars can do bad things. That isn't persuading me to think that templars should have "dominion over mages by divine right".

Hanging on to a single phrase uttered by a man who saw his friends tortured and killed by mages and is serving in the strictest circle in Thedas for dear life, aren't we? Mages have more rights and freedoms than that.

Anyway, It is true that templars have abused their powers and harmed innocents. That is prone to happen if people are given too much power, regardless of who they are.
However, all of the examples you gave happened inside a single Circle. Why is that?
Because in order for a templar to abuse their powers so, a very specific set of conditions is required. In Kirkwall, they were the greatest fighting force; their Knight-Commander was more powerful than the Viscount, paranoid and being maddened by a Lyrium Idol; there was an unnusually high number of blood mages which made people turn to the templars for protection and gave the worst of the worst a reasonable amount of freedom to give wings to their most horrible urges.
This was an extreme situation, it happens rarely. And while this might sound selfish, templar abuses are, ultimately, contained to a tower.

Mages do not need these specific conditions to grant them power to abuse, they can turn ordinary day to day situations into calamities. And when they do, it's not one or two people being harmed. It's entire villages being razed to the ground.

Mayhaps the Templar Order exerts too much control, it's something worth discussing. But the solution is not to give mages unrestrained freedom and trust them to police themselves. That may be wonderful for the mages, but it would be the mundanes who suffer.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB,

Like Aneiren in DAO was returned to the circle? He wasn't a bloodmage, but the Templars said he was and ran him through and left him for dead anyway. If you talk to Ser Thrask in DA2, you get the idea that Templars do this frequently (in DAA Anders simply says that eventually the Templars will call him 'malificar' and execute him true or not).

The problem is there is NO ONE watching the watchmen.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Mayhaps the Templar Order exerts too much control, it's something worth discussing. But the solution is not to give mages unrestrained freedom and trust them to police themselves. That may be wonderful for the mages, but it would be the mundanes who suffer.

This is the ultimate false dichotomy and a very poor arguement but one not only you make but the Templar supporters in the game make.  I have come up with many other ways that magic can be regulated and so have others.  Those that are pro-mage almost never (and I have certainly never) said that magic should be completely unregulated or that mages should be able to do what they like.

Rather, most of us have said that a reasonable SECULAR approach that gave the mages a voice (not total control) over that process needed to be done.  The Templar supporters say "That's impossible" and stop talking.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

If they didn't turn to blood magic, most templars would just return them to the Circle. Anders was brought back seven times exactly because all he did was escape.

He was only allowed to return so many times because Irving kept speaking up for him. If Irving wasn't there, Anders would've been Tranquil long before we met him. Or dead. Dead's bad.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kerras makes it clear he wants to rape a female Hawke

That's new. I don't recall that happening. Was this in Act 1's Act of Mercy?

MisterJB wrote...

We do see a Mother trying to raise funds for the helpless in Hightown.
Anyway, Avelina became an Abomination because of her Desire to see her children have a better life and her Rage at seeing their suffering; suffering the Templars did not contribute to. Perhaps the Templars didn't help but chances are it would have happened regardless.

You truly think that if the Templars had gone to Elthina and said "Hey, there are about half a dozen kids who need some help. A Mage was helping to protect them from the Blight and she's in the Circle now of her own volition, but she asked us to help them out. Can you help them?", that those kids would've suffered anyway?

Really? The same Chantry that you're trying to say tried to help people in Kirkwall? I mean, yes there's a priest or two roaming about asking people for coin -- even the people who do not have coin -- but to say "They want to help" and to then say "These kids were ****ed anyway" seems like it doesn't jive well.

The kids would've had a better life in the Chantry in comparison to living in the slums. The Templars took a Mage that voluntarily turned herself in to a Circle away from the Blight and branded her apostate and ignored her request for helping her adopted family.

Evelina only became an Abomination when the Templars came after her for escaping. Which she wouldn't have done had they treated her like a person who did the right thing and actually helped her children get out of the slums.

They may not have been the ones who deal with such things, but they could've at least relayed the information to the Chantry -- the people they're in service to and the people who actually handle such things.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 janvier 2013 - 01:52 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...

MisterJB,

Like Aneiren in DAO was returned to the circle? He wasn't a bloodmage, but the Templars said he was and ran him through and left him for dead anyway. If you talk to Ser Thrask in DA2, you get the idea that Templars do this frequently (in DAA Anders simply says that eventually the Templars will call him 'malificar' and execute him true or not).

We don't know what happened with Aneirin. Maybe in panic he used blood magic, maybe it was racially motivated because he is an elf, maybe it was in a time before Gregoir became Knight Commander.

Thrask serves in Kirkwall where Knigth Commander Meredith executed Starkhaven mages even after they surrended peacefully to teach them a lesson. Yes, it's probrably common there which doesn't mean the same happens regularly in other Circles.

Anders also tought the Chantry was just eager to turn every mage in Thedas into Tranquil when even Meredith took a step back and wondered what the hell was wrong with Alrik; Anders tough letting a spirit live inside you was a good idea. He is not a good judge of character.

The problem is there is NO ONE watching the watchmen.

The mages are not defenseless children. In Ferelden we see the power being fairly divided between Knigth Commander and First Enchanter and in the White Spire, even after the stricter Lambert took command, when the mages staged a protest, Rhys was released. Despite the fact there were good reasons to believe he was the murderer wich he did turn out to be.
And then there are the Seekers who we see in "Dawn of the Seeker" acting as foils to corrupt Templars.

It doesn't  always work, of course, but no system is perfect.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
He was only allowed to
return so many times because Irving kept speaking up for him. If Irving
wasn't there, Anders would've been Tranquil long before we met him. Or
dead. Dead's bad.

So, the mages DO have a voice. The Enchanters.

And honestly, had Anders just stayed dead, lots of lives would have been spared.

You
truly think that if the Templars had gone to Elthina and said "Hey,
there are about half a dozen kids who need some help. A Mage was helping
to protect them from the Blight and she's in the Circle now of her own
volition, but she asked us to help them out. Can you help them?", that
those kids would've suffered anyway?

Really? The same Chantry
that you're trying to say tried to help people in Kirkwall? I mean, yes
there's a priest or two roaming about asking people for coin -- even the
people who do not have coin -- but to say "They want to help" and to
then say "These kids were ****ed anyway" seems like it doesn't jive
well.

The kids would've had a better life in the Chantry in
comparison to living in the slums. The Templars took a Mage that
voluntarily turned herself in to a Circle away from the Blight and branded her apostate and ignored her request for helping her adopted family.

Evelina
only became an Abomination when the Templars came after her for
escaping. Which she wouldn't have done had they treated her like a
person who did the right thing and actually helped her children get out
of the slums.

They may not have been the ones who deal with such
things, but they could've at least relayed the information to the
Chantry -- the people they're in service to and the people who actually
handle such things.

The Templars don't need to tell
anyone where the poor of Kirkwall live or that there are refugees living
on the street. Everyone knows there was an huge influx of them running
from the Blight and everyone knows where they are. Lowtonw, Darktown.
Do
you think it's easy to find food or medicine or room for all of them?
Yes, the Chantry wants to help; we can at least agree that Elthina is a
really compassionate person; but of course that alone is not going to be
enough. DA is a Dark Fantasy setting based on medieval times. Life sucks for everyone who is not an emperor.

What
made Evelina's children special and more worthy of care? The fact that
her surrogate mother might go Abomination on our asses?
Lastly, the
Blight ended six year prior to Act 3 and the fire that allowed her and
others to escape was recent. So, clearly, the templars didn't try to
kill her as soon as she showed up. She turned into an Abomination
because her children were suffering. Well, that sucks but children will always suffer. Children
suffer in our world and we've developed far beyond Thedosian level. If
their mothers are mages, should we expect them to turn into an
Abomination at any time?

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Rather, most of us have said that a reasonable SECULAR approach that gave the mages a voice (not total control) over that process needed to be done.  The Templar supporters say "That's impossible" and stop talking.

-Polaris

You do me an injustice. I've never backed away from these debates and I have, in fact, suggested different, more lenient, Circle systems before.

We're here and we're talking. Let's see:
You'd have to define what you consider as "reasonable". I suspect we will disagree.

Secular. You placed emphasys in this and yet, I consider it a non issue. Of all the templars we meet, I can remember only two who seemed genuinely religious. Cullen and Otto the Blind, neither of which are bad persons.
Most templars seem to be more concerned about the danger mages pose rather than punish them because the Maker is angry with them. And, to be fair, fear of Divine reprisal will help keep some mages in line.
Certainly, it might have some toll in their mental health but I'd say we should place practical considerations first and foremost.

Mages have a voice. The First Enchanter is, ultimately, the one who decides the fate of the mages in the Circle, none may be punished or place through Harrowing without his approval.
Of course, the measure to which this is respected vary widly and in both directions. We have Ferelden where both the KC and the FE seem to have equal saying. We have Kirkwall where the KC and the Fe are constantly fighting and corruption is massive, on both sides. And we have Minrathous where the KC is basically a puppet in the hands of the Magisters who do as they please.

[IanPolaris]

Edited because my initial response was probably too hostile and too dismissive.  It was hostile because I do not think the person I am quoting is anything close to as 'fair minded' as he wants to believe.

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Rather, most of us have said that a reasonable SECULAR approach that gave the mages a voice (not total control) over that process needed to be done.  The Templar supporters say "That's impossible" and stop talking.

-Polaris

You do me an injustice. I've never backed away from these debates and I have, in fact, suggested different, more lenient, Circle systems before.

Since when?  Seriously you, Lotion, and the other 'usual suspects' will often raise this issue, find a trivial problem with it, and use that as an excuse why anything other than the circle system as presented can't ever work.  I have seen this repeated for years now.

We're here and we're talking. Let's see:
You'd have to define what you consider as "reasonable". I suspect we will disagree.

Since I don't consider genocide to be reasonable, I think that's a safe bet...and YES, the circle system under modern UN definitions could easily be considered genocide (look it up).

Secular. You placed emphasys in this and yet, I consider it a non issue. Of all the templars we meet, I can remember only two who seemed genuinely religious. Cullen and Otto the Blind, neither of which are bad persons.
Most templars seem to be more concerned about the danger mages pose rather than punish them because the Maker is angry with them. And, to be fair, fear of Divine reprisal will help keep some mages in line.
Certainly, it might have some toll in their mental health but I'd say we should place practical considerations first and foremost.

You need to read the codex.  Templars are recruited for their fantacism.  That is a very bad trait for a job that requires moderation and a fair amount of rational judgement.  Worse, the Chantry addicts them to drugs (lyrium), and no (per canon DAO) Templars do NOT have to use lyrium to use their abilities.   The Chantry has way too much influence, and power, and not only that but by the nature of organized religion tends to abuse such power worse.  Taking magical police power/control out of chantry step is non-negotiable for me.

Mages have a voice. The First Enchanter is, ultimately, the one who decides the fate of the mages in the Circle, none may be punished or place through Harrowing without his approval.

Wrong.  The first enchanter has the authority to blow his nose, and perhaps wipe his behind if the Knight Commander co-signs the order.  The first enchanter is supposed to decide the fate of mages but in both DOA and DA2 we find it's the Knight Commander that has that actual authority....or do you really think that Orisino authorized all those harrowed mages in Kirkwall that were tranquiled?  Do you really think that Irving wanted to tranquil Jowan (in fact he says that if it were up to him things would be different).

Of course, the measure to which this is respected vary widly and in both directions. We have Ferelden where both the KC and the FE seem to have equal saying. We have Kirkwall where the KC and the Fe are constantly fighting and corruption is massive, on both sides. And we have Minrathous where the KC is basically a puppet in the hands of the Magisters who do as they please.

Even in Ferelden (far and away the most liberal non-Tevinter circle), the KC and First Enchanter are NOT equals (see Jowan).  Tevinter doesn't count since the Magisters essentially ARE the Templars (and it's a different chantry anyways).  We see over and over again that the Templars don't respect what you say they should, and no one makes sure that they do.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 18 janvier 2013 - 12:30 .

[MisterJB]

If you don't wish to argue, that's fine. But then don't complain that it's the templar supporters who "stop talking".

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

If you don't wish to argue, that's fine. But then don't complain that it's the templar supporters who "stop talking".

Frankly I do think the templar supporters stop talking.  Every time someone mentions that magic could be controlled another way, you or others (lotion in particular) find some trivial flaw and magnify it as an excuse to make it supposedly impossible.

I am sick and tired of it.

-Polaris