523 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

So, the mages DO have a voice. The Enchanters.

To those who view them as equals and colleagues, sure. And I mean equals in the sense of "fellow people", not "person who's just as strong as me".

And "did" would be a more appropriate word, given how Lambert refused to give the Enchanters their voice.

Lastly, the Blight ended six year prior to Act 3 and the fire that allowed her and others to escape was recent.

It happened in Act 2, I'm led to believe. Meredith says that while they've found many of the Mages since then, 3 have proven elusive. And Evelina can be seen in Darktown during Act 2. And you hear how upon immediately coming to Kirkwall during the Blight, she turned herself in.

So... they let her kids languish in poverty for 6 years without even attempting to help them. Whether success or failure would've been the result is irrelevant to making an actual attempt.

Do you think it's easy to find food or medicine or room for all of them?

They have room. And they can talk with noble families for assistance. I mean, a noble family saw the young kid and took pity on him, taking him into their home and teaching him all manner of things.

Bodahn helped Walter get a job.

It doesn't take that much. A little talk here and there can go a long way. And the Chantry does have room. Remember, they're the ones that train orphans into Templars at times -- good or ill varying upon perspective and child.

The Templars don't need to tell
anyone where the poor of Kirkwall live or that there are refugees living
on the street. Everyone knows there was an huge influx of them running
from the Blight and everyone knows where they are. Lowtonw, Darktown.

Sure, but Evelina can give descriptions of the children to which the Templars can relay to the priests and City Guard so that the Templars aren't going "A child! Quick, they must be one of Evelina's! Bring her to the Chantry for a better life!".

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Since when?  Seriously you, Lotion, and the other 'usual suspects' will often raise this issue, find a trivial problem with it, and use that as an excuse why anything other than the circle system as presented can't ever work.  I have seen this repeated for years now.

Somehow, I suspect you'd consider an outbreak of the Black Death to be something trivial.

But fine, here.
http://social.biowar...dex/12621706/15

Middle of the page you'll see my suggestion on a different Circle System. My opinions remains largely unchanged.

Since I don't consider genocide to be reasonable, I think that's a safe bet...and YES, the circle system under modern UN definitions could easily be considered genocide (look it up).

No need considering neither the UN not anything in our real world ever had to deal with magic. Their standards are worthless, we need to analyze the situations by Thedosian standards.

You need to read the codex.  Templars are recruited for their fantacism.  That is a very bad trait for a job that requires moderation and a fair amount of rational judgement. 

First, religious zeal is not, inehrently, a negative trait.
Second, any organization in the world that deals in controversial situations and is expected to defend civillians, does not look for the great thinkers of the world when recruiting. Rather, they look for people who will obey orders.
We do not need bleeding heart templars who will reflect on the degrees of guilt both parties bear when there is a blood mage raising the undead. Leave that for KCs and Divines.

Worse, the Chantry addicts them to drugs (lyrium), and no (per canon DAO) Templars do NOT have to use lyrium to use their abilities.

 
That is, by no means, canon especially when everyone else in the world claims that lyrium is needed and even Alistair, in the most recent comic, allured at drinking lyrium when using his templar abilities.
It's an incosistency that raises a possiblity, Mr. Gaider said as much.

The Chantry has way too much influence, and power, and not only that but by the nature of organized religion tends to abuse such power worse.

Now you're just allowing real world prejudice to pollute your view of the situation.
Where are the secret blood mage squads serving the Divine? Where are the armies of mages being sent out to conquer land? Nowhere, because the Chantry has not abused its power. In fact, even sending seven mages to fight darkspawn was somethign Duncan and Cailan had to fight over.  
For 900 years, the Chantry has done a good job juggling the needs of both sides of the population, keeping the mages neutral and away from those who would use them to destroy their neighbors. I don't see anyone else who can do this.

Taking magical police power/control out of chantry step is non-negotiable for me.

That is quite unresonable.

Wrong.  The first enchanter has the authority to blow his nose, and perhaps wipe his behind if the Knight Commander co-signs the order.  The first enchanter is supposed to decide the fate of mages but in both DOA and DA2 we find it's the Knight Commander that has that actual authority....or do you really think that Orisino authorized all those harrowed mages in Kirkwall that were tranquiled?  Do you really think that Irving wanted to tranquil Jowan (in fact he says that if it were up to him things would be different).

I mentioned Kirkwall as a place where templars had more saying.
However, you seem to be confusing "equality" with "submission". In Ferelden, the KC and the FE have equal saying in what happens but what that entails is that Gregoir also as the right to argue with Irving and, sometimes, win the argument. It's why Jowan must be punished but Irving also suceeds in having Lily punished.
And it's a good system considering that Irving would have just forgiven a blood mage.

Tevinter doesn't count since the Magisters essentially ARE the Templars (and it's a different chantry anyways)

Oh yes it does. The Circle of Tevinter serves as an example of a Circle system where the mages wrestled power away from the mundanes Templars; they do exist, see Lambert; and can now do as they please.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
To those who view them as equals and colleagues, sure. And I mean equals in the sense of "fellow people", not "person who's just as strong as me".

Now you just might the asking a bit too much. If the result is the same, is that not more important?

And "did" would be a more appropriate word, given how Lambert refused to give the Enchanters their voice.

Considering the strings of terrorist attacks caused by mages over the past years, thing were, understandably, tense.
And when the mages of the White Spire banded together and protested, he release Rhys despite there being a good chance he was a murderer.

They have room. And they can talk with noble families for assistance. I mean, a noble family saw the young kid and took pity on him, taking him into their home and teaching him all manner of things.

Bodahn helped Walter get a job.

It doesn't take that much. A little talk here and there can go a long way. And the Chantry does have room. Remember, they're the ones that train orphans into Templars at times -- good or ill varying upon perspective and child.
Sure, but Evelina can give descriptions of the children to which the Templars can relay to the priests and City Guard so that the Templars aren't going "A child! Quick, they must be one of Evelina's! Bring her to the Chantry for a better life!".

Neither the Chantry not the templars can provide room and food and clothes for every poor soul in Kirkwall. What makes Eveina's children more especial than all others who fled the Blight? Because she is a mage?

Honestly, the nobles couldn't care less in 99% of the cases. What noble exactly took a homeless child into their home?

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Since when?  Seriously you, Lotion, and the other 'usual suspects' will often raise this issue, find a trivial problem with it, and use that as an excuse why anything other than the circle system as presented can't ever work.  I have seen this repeated for years now.[/quote]
Somehow, I suspect you'd consider an outbreak of the Black Death to be something trivial.

But fine, here.
http://social.biowar...dex/12621706/15

Middle of the page you'll see my suggestion on a different Circle System. My opinions remains largely unchanged.
[/quote]

Your so-called solution is really what we would call a medium security prison.  Being a mage is not a crime.

[quote]
[quote]
Since I don't consider genocide to be reasonable, I think that's a safe bet...and YES, the circle system under modern UN definitions could easily be considered genocide (look it up).[/quote]
No need considering neither the UN not anything in our real world ever had to deal with magic. Their standards are worthless, we need to analyze the situations by Thedosian standards.
[/quote]

And Thedas doesn't have to deal with the ability to destroy a city block in an afternoon which our society does (anyone that has passed high school chemistry can do this with one trip to the local hardware store...and the information to do this is easily available on-line).

Yet, we don't imprison people after taking chemistry courses.  Your dismissal of the moral argument (which btw is valid in Thedas...even Wynne uses modern post WWII language in this regard w/r/t the circle) is pure sophistry.

[quote]
[quote]
You need to read the codex.  Templars are recruited for their fantacism.  That is a very bad trait for a job that requires moderation and a fair amount of rational judgement. [/quote]
First, religious zeal is not, inehrently, a negative trait.
[/quote]

It is when you want to recruit police and ultimately templars are SUPPOSED to be police.

[quote]
Second, any organization in the world that deals in controversial situations and is expected to defend civillians, does not look for the great thinkers of the world when recruiting. Rather, they look for people who will obey orders.
We do not need bleeding heart templars who will reflect on the degrees of guilt both parties bear when there is a blood mage raising the undead. Leave that for KCs and Divines.
[/quote]

I never said that a military organization needed to recruit great thinkers.  This is a strawman on your part.  However, a police organization especially one that is supposed to guard and protect mages as much from mundanes as the reverse should NOT be composed of fanatics and especially not drug-addled fanatics.  You want such people for suicide duty and the like.  Here's the key:  Such people are likely to consider anyone that disagrees with them as non-human....and that is NOT a good thing for a custodian.

[quote]


[quote]Worse, the Chantry addicts them to drugs (lyrium), and no (per canon DAO) Templars do NOT have to use lyrium to use their abilities.[/quote] 
That is, by no means, canon especially when everyone else in the world claims that lyrium is needed and even Alistair, in the most recent comic, allured at drinking lyrium when using his templar abilities.
It's an incosistency that raises a possiblity, Mr. Gaider said as much.
[/quote]

It is canon.  Alistair in DAO uses templar abilities but does not use lyrium.

[quote]


[quote]The Chantry has way too much influence, and power, and not only that but by the nature of organized religion tends to abuse such power worse.[/quote]
Now you're just allowing real world prejudice to pollute your view of the situation.
Where are the secret blood mage squads serving the Divine? Where are the armies of mages being sent out to conquer land? Nowhere, because the Chantry has not abused its power. In fact, even sending seven mages to fight darkspawn was somethign Duncan and Cailan had to fight over. 
[/quote]

Actually the Chantry holds the Templars and the threat of an Exalted March over every nation in Thedas (or has until recently).  What happened to the Dales was an object lesson to any nation that would challenge the chantry, and don't think the rest of the kingdoms haven't notice.  Both DAO and DA2 are rife with Chantry abuse of power.  In fact in Fereldan under Orlesian occupation Chantry abuse was so blatent that Maric and Loghain very nearly kicked the Chantry OUT.

[quote]
For 900 years, the Chantry has done a good job juggling the needs of both sides of the population, keeping the mages neutral and away from those who would use them to destroy their neighbors. I don't see anyone else who can do this.
[/quote]

Sure, and Meredith was the paragon of moderatation and sanity.....right.....

In fact the Chantry has done a lousy job.  17 Annuments in 900 years (actually less since the circles were founded after the divine era began) is a horrific record.  It is the wiping out of an entire tower down to the last little mage boy and girl about once a generation.


[quote]

[quote]Taking magical police power/control out of chantry step is non-negotiable for me.[/quote]
That is quite unresonable.
[/quote]

Wrong.  It is very reasonable.  Secular rulers need to have control of secular power and magic is most definately a source of secular power.  Not only that but the proper education and regulation of magic is a secular public safety issue and that is most definately the proper venue of the secular govt.

[quote]
[quote]
Wrong.  The first enchanter has the authority to blow his nose, and perhaps wipe his behind if the Knight Commander co-signs the order.  The first enchanter is supposed to decide the fate of mages but in both DOA and DA2 we find it's the Knight Commander that has that actual authority....or do you really think that Orisino authorized all those harrowed mages in Kirkwall that were tranquiled?  Do you really think that Irving wanted to tranquil Jowan (in fact he says that if it were up to him things would be different).[/quote]
I mentioned Kirkwall as a place where templars had more saying.
However, you seem to be confusing "equality" with "submission". In Ferelden, the KC and the FE have equal saying in what happens but what that entails is that Gregoir also as the right to argue with Irving and, sometimes, win the argument. It's why Jowan must be punished but Irving also suceeds in having Lily punished.
And it's a good system considering that Irving would have just forgiven a blood mage.
[/quote]

Irving very clearly does not have equal say.  Irving has the authority that Gregoire permits him.  I would replay DAO again if that is in any way unclear.

[quote]
[quote]
Tevinter doesn't count since the Magisters essentially ARE the Templars (and it's a different chantry anyways)[/quote]
Oh yes it does. The Circle of Tevinter serves as an example of a Circle system where the mages wrestled power away from the mundanes Templars; they do exist, see Lambert; and can now do as they please.
[/quote]

Not it doesn't because Tevinter is different with a capital "D".  Tevinter has a different culture, different chantry, and completely different attitude towards magic and morality in general than pretty much everyone else.  Tevinter is the boogyman that the Orlesian chantry uses to punish mages, and I don't buy it.

-Polaris

[Rinshikai10]

Do I think Elthina is to blame? Absolutely, and there are some key reason why.

Just so no one is confused I don't blame her for every problem, though she was one of the key stones that started the M/T war.

1) She was the one who promoted Meredeth to KC, then could/would not keep her in line.
2) She does not have Chantry or Templar personal punished when evidence was brought forward.

9:34 Tranquil solution
9:34 Petrice and her plans to instigate conflicts with the Qunari, using the Grand Clerics seal.
9:34-9:37 Meredith becoming the Viscountess in all but name, and requesting RoA.

3) Not admitting that she could no long control the situation, and lying to the Divine about the situation in Kirkwall. (Had Seekers been requested the Templars may have been brought into line before things got out of control.)

4) When she scolds Meredith in act 3 its like sending a child to their room. Not very affective when working with adults.

I will admit that she is a good priest but that does not make her a good leader.

One of the most important lessons I learned from Sun Tzu is

If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame. But, if orders are clear and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers.”

Elthina made her orders clear, yet Meredith disobeyed. This should have lead to another Templar (possibly Cullen) being made KC and Meredith being made an example of.

Yet all Elthina did was pray for the Maker to solve the problem for her. IMO this boiled down to poor management skills and idealistic thinking.

In the end this is just my opinion after the events have happened.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:56 .

[b09boy]

I'd say whoever decided to put a Circle in Kirkwall, where the veil is thin, is to blame. The entire city is full of whack jobs due in part to this, the mages especially so. When more mages go crazy, the templars have to crack down more. When the templars have to crack down more, more mages go crazy.

That said, what ended up all happening was largely out of anyone's hands. The lyrium idol was what ended up really driving Meredith over the top, but even that needed a spark to set things off. Enter Plot Mover-3000 (now in Anders form!).

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Now you just might the asking a bit too much. If the result is the same, is that not more important?

Just came home from work, so I don't follow.

Considering the strings of terrorist attacks caused by mages over the past years, thing were, understandably, tense.
And when the mages of the White Spire banded together and protested, he release Rhys despite there being a good chance he was a murderer.

Lambert's the same guy who conspired behind the Mages' and the Divine's back to have any information on the RoT being reversible erased from existence, whatever the means.

And the wiki claims that he didn't release Rhys, but rather imprisoned him and interrogated him. It also claims that he was rescued by the Mages, not freed by Lambert.

Neither the Chantry not the templars can provide room and food and clothes for every poor soul in Kirkwall. What makes Eveina's children more especial than all others who fled the Blight? Because she is a mage?

Improving PR with the Mages, showing that the Chantry will do its best to listen to and address the concerns the Mages bring up.

Honestly, the nobles couldn't care less in 99% of the cases. What noble exactly took a homeless child into their home?

No name was given, but you receive a letter from Walter telling you of how Bodahn helped him land a job and how Cricket was adopted by a noble family.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 janvier 2013 - 03:44 .

[dragonflight288]

This post is not really a reply to anyone, and I'm sure people know this, but I was playing DragonAge Origins today and I read this codex entry, and I thought it would useful to add to the debate.

Dragon Age Wiki

Codex entry: Apostates

Magic and Religion
Location:

Talk with Jowan in Redcliffe Castle - Basement
Codex text

It is not uncommon for the neophyte to mistake apostates and maleficarum as one and the same. Indeed, the Chantry has gone to great lengths over the centuries to establish that this is so. The truth, however, is that while an apostate is often a maleficar, he need not be so. A maleficar is a mage who employs forbidden knowledge such as blood magic and the summoning of demons, whereas an apostate is merely any mage who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle of Magi (and therefore the Chantry). They are hunted by the templars, and quite often they will turn to forbidden knowledge in order to survive, but it would be a lie to say that all apostates begin that way.

Historically, apostates become such in one of two ways: They are either mages who have escaped from the Circle or mages who were never part of it to begin with. This latter category includes what we tend to refer to as "hedge mages"--those with magical ability out in the hinterlands who follow a different magical tradition than our own. Some of these hedge mages are not even aware of their nature. Undeveloped, their abilities can express themselves in a variety of ways, which the hedge mage might attribute to faith, or will, or to another being entirely (depending on his nature). Some of these traditions are passed down from generation to generation, as with the so-called "witches" of the Chasind wilders or the "shamans" of the Avvar barbarians.

No matter how a mage has become apostate, the Chantry treats them alike: Templars begin a systematic hunt to bring the apostate to justice. In almost all cases, "justice" is execution. If there is some overriding reason the mage should live, the Rite of Tranquility is employed instead. Whether we of the Circle of Magi believe this system fair is irrelevant: It is what it is.

--From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed.

This shows us the problems with mages and templars are not just limited to Kirkwall, we only see the extreme measures put in place there, whereas we only have Ferelden to compare it too based on things we have observed. Codex entries and lore indicates that Kirkwall is closer to the norm than Ferelden, and even Ferelden had issues.

[katattax]

Along the lines of the above post, I read the codex on abominations last night that I thought relevant to the discussion (emphasis mine):

..."The monstrous creature, looking as if a demon were wearing a man like a twisted suit of skin, spotted me and grinned. We had forced it to this, I realized; the mage had made this pact, given himself over to the demon to survive our assault." ... Thankfully, abominations are rare. The Circle has methods for weeding out those who are too at risk for demonic possession, and scant few mages would give up their free will to submit to such a bond with a demon...

Templars themselves admit that their tactics can force mages to turn to forbidden methods but, that said, mages who do so are still a rarity. I believe there's some banter with Anders and Merrill where he says possession is terrifying; you're paralysed and can only watch in horror as your body is used against your will, which would explain why few mages would be willing to make a pact with a demon.

[b09boy]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Codex entries and lore indicates that Kirkwall is closer to the norm than Ferelden...

Is it really, though?  The codex entry also ignores the existance of Aeonar, and it's not like we haven't seen examples of mage treatment outside of Ferelden.  Even Orlais, the heart of the chantry, hires on mage advisors and the Circle there doesn't become nearly so bad until the Lord Seeker takes control.

katattax wrote...

Along the lines of the above post, I read the codex on abominations last night that I thought relevant to the discussion (emphasis mine):

..."The monstrous creature, looking as if a demon were wearing a man like a twisted suit of skin, spotted me and grinned. We had forced it to this, I realized; the mage had made this pact, given himself over to the demon to survive our assault." ... Thankfully, abominations are rare. The Circle has methods for weeding out those who are too at risk for demonic possession, and scant few mages would give up their free will to submit to such a bond with a demon...

Templars themselves admit that their tactics can force mages to turn to forbidden methods but, that said, mages who do so are still a rarity. I believe there's some banter with Anders and Merrill where he says possession is terrifying; you're paralysed and can only watch in horror as your body is used against your will, which would explain why few mages would be willing to make a pact with a demon.

Like how between the bolded sections you left out the part of the Circle having methods to weed out those at risk of possession...

[dragonflight288]

Is it really, though? The codex entry also ignores the existance of Aeonar, and it's not like we haven't seen examples of mage treatment outside of Ferelden. Even Orlais, the heart of the chantry, hires on mage advisors and the Circle there doesn't become nearly so bad until the Lord Seeker takes control.

Do we know that for a fact? We are talking about the exact same country where a Chevalier can take special privileges with women simply because they're chevalier, and the women defending themselves can be punished for it.

We are also talking about the land of exotic cheeses and funny accents....but who cares about that. lol.

Val Reyeoux is the heart of the Chantry, the heart of where all templars ultimately go when they get lyrium addled, and are literally no longer physically capable of performing their duties.

As for things not becoming so bad until the Lord Seeker took control...he shouldn't have taken control in the first place. He doesn't command templars. He's a seeker. His job description is investigating templars. Not mages. And the templars didn't put up much resistance (forgetting Evangeline) to his ideas.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Do we know that for a fact? We are talking about the exact same country where a Chevalier can take special privileges with women simply because they're chevalier, and the women defending themselves can be punished for it.

Well, in "Dawn of the Seeker" we can see the First Enchanter speaking at the Divine's Court alongside the Knigth Commander and Lord Seeker. In Asunder, Rhys makes allusion to having been able to visit the city and buy souvenirs, experiment with spirits while under templar observation to ensure no demon would tag along inside his soul and even wander around the tower for as long as they pleased at night.
Seemed liked a fairly good Circle to live in.

As for things not becoming so bad until the Lord Seeker took control...he shouldn't have taken control in the first place. He doesn't command templars. He's a seeker. His job description is investigating templars. Not mages. And the templars didn't put up much resistance (forgetting Evangeline) to his ideas.

The Seekers are also meant to act should templars fail in their duties. Mages were being murdered and no one could find the culprit. Lambert found it altough he did help start a war along the way.
And I emphasize "help".

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Just came home from work, so I don't follow.

That asking mundanes and mages to see each other as equals is asking a bit too much.
At best, one might respect the power of the other and think twice before harming a member of the other group.

Lambert's the same guy who conspired behind the Mages' and the Divine's back to have any information on the RoT being reversible erased from existence, whatever the means.

True but he also admitted that he would be willing to look into it in calmer times, not when mages were looking for reasons to rebel.
Besides, I don't think Tranquility should be reversed except in the mages Alrik mutilated.

And the wiki claims that he didn't release Rhys, but rather imprisoned him and interrogated him. It also claims that he was rescued by the Mages, not freed by Lambert.

Well, you should read the book. Rhys was caugth by Evangeline pursuing Cole in the tower's dungeons and imprisioned him for suspicion of cumplicity with the blood mage who attempted to murder the Divine.
Evangeline interrogated him; Lambert's interrogation comes later in the book; but when it became obvious Rhys had been imprisioned, the mages of the tower protested outside of Lambert's office and he agreed to release him.
Which proves mages do have a voice, even if the Enchanters are silenced. They are not defenseless children.

[katattax]

b09boy wrote...

Like how between the bolded sections you left out the part of the Circle having methods to weed out those at risk of possession...

I was trying to cut it down to size. Even if they have methods to weed them out, that doesn't obviate my point that such mages are rare.

Edit: Here's the bit mentioned.

The Circle has methods for weeding out those who are too at risk for demonic possession, and scant few mages would give up their free will to submit to such a bond with a demon.

It doesn't say they wouldn't submit because the Circle weeds them out but rather that most wouldn't do so anyway and the Circle keeps a close eye on those few who might. That's how I understand it, at least.

Modifié par katattax, 20 janvier 2013 - 12:55 .

[MisterJB]

[/quote]IanPolaris
wrote...

Your so-called solution is really what we would call a medium security
prison.  Being a mage is not a crime.[/quote]

I have never committed a crime in my life but I have restrictions placed upon my freedoms nonetheless. These restrictions exist not because I have given evidence of being dangerous but because the possibility that I might harm others exists.

These restrictions are needed for any society to function. Those who are born with a greater potential for destruction need to have harsher restrictions.
The right to life of the mundane supersedes the right to freedom of mages.
[quote]

And Thedas doesn't have to deal with the ability to destroy a city block in an
afternoon which our society does (anyone that has passed high school chemistry
can do this with one trip to the local hardware store...and the information to
do this is easily available on-line).[/quote]

Except it does. And unlike in our world where there needs to be intent and effort from our part to destroy a city block, we saw a mere child razing an entire village to the ground without meaning to.

Never mind the more insidious ways magic can harm others. Mind Control, Walking Bomb.

Good luck punishing a criminal for those.

[quote]Your dismissal of the moral argument (which btw is valid in
Thedas...even Wynne uses modern post WWII language in this regard w/r/t the
circle) is pure sophistry.[/quote]

Our world's moral have little to nothing that relates them to Thedas because we haven't had to face most of the problems Thedosian society had to.



[quote]

It is when you want to recruit police and ultimately templars are SUPPOSED to
be police.

I never said that a military organization needed to recruit great thinkers.
 This is a strawman on your part.  However, a police organization
especially one that is supposed to guard and protect mages as much from
mundanes as the reverse should NOT be composed of fanatics and especially not
drug-addled fanatics.  You want such people for suicide duty and the like. 
Here's the key:  Such people are likely to consider anyone that disagrees
with them as non-human....and that is NOT a good thing for a custodian.[/quote]

Religious zeal is neither an intrinsically negative trait nor is it, objectively, harmful to the performance of one’s duties. For instance, Sebastian is an ardent believer in the tenets of Andraste and, due to this in fact, he is an
extremely compassionate person.

In fact, most of the more overzealous templars we meet; such as Meredith or Cullen; have become so due to having experienced first hands the dangers of magic, not because of religious teaching.


[quote]

It is canon.  Alistair in DAO uses templar abilities but does not use
lyrium.[/quote]

And Hawke is a Reaver without drinking dragon blood, perhaps? He must have wished really, really hard and suddenly he was able to break the laws of physic.

It’s a lore inconsistency due to gameplay needs. At most, it raises the possibility of lyrium not being need. Emphasis on “possibility”.



[quote]

Actually the Chantry holds the Templars and the threat of an
Exalted March over every nation in Thedas (or has until
recently).  What happened to the Dales was an object lesson to any
nation that would challenge the chantry, and don't think
the rest of the kingdoms haven't notice. [/quote]

That Exalted March was called because the elves were burning their way through Orlais and stood at the doorstep of Val-Royeaux herself which they sacked. That is not so much as “challenging” as attempting to destroy it.

It is true that the Chantry holds great political power but I see no abuse from its part. Rather, I see the Chantry as having created a more moral and secure society where things like slavery are viewed as repulsing and there aren’t rogue mages prowling the land.

Fenris, an escaped slave from Tevinter, appears to quite like life in Andrastean society.



[quote]Both DAO and DA2 are rife with Chantry abuse of power.[/quote]

Except they’re aren’t.



[quote]In fact in Fereldan under Orlesian occupation Chantry abuse was so
blatent that Maric and Loghain very nearly kicked the Chantry OUT.[/quote]

The Grand Cleric of Denerim was, quite clearly should you read the book, doing her best to protect the population of Ferelden from orlesian excesses. She saw the rebellion as bringing rift and suffering to the people and hoped that, with compliance, King Meghren would be just to his subjects.

When this proved untrue and Maris had a chance of winning, she started supporting the rebellion. The idea that the Grand Cleric would allow Brothers and Sister to abuse the Ferelden population when they themselves are
Ferelden is ridiculous.



[quote]

Sure, and Meredith was the paragon of moderatation and
sanity.....right.....[/quote]

She was the commander of one Circle. That's all.  Show me the perfect system that is incapable of falling to corruption.



[quote]In fact the Chantry has done a lousy job.  17 Annuments in 900
years (actually less since the circles were founded after the divine era began)
is a horrific record.  It is the wiping out of an entire tower down to the
last little mage boy and girl about once a generation.[/quote]

Considering the type of people it is supposed to contain, I'd say it's actually a pretty good record.

And we should also take into account it has managed to keep Southern Thedas safe from magical tiranny and threat which is and should be the main objective of the Circle.





[quote]

Wrong.  It is very reasonable.  Secular rulers need to have control
of secular power and magic is most definately a source of secular power. 
Not only that but the proper education and regulation of magic is a secular
public safety issue and that is most definately the proper venue of the secular
govt.[/quote]

If you place the mages in the hands of nobles and kings, you will have squads of mages battling each other in territorial disputes.

The Chantry has proven that it is able to contain mages while keeping their devastating powers politically neutral.



[quote]

Irving very clearly does not have equal say.  Irving has the authority
that Gregoire permits him.  I would replay DAO again if that is in any way
unclear.[/quote]

Clearly you should.

I remember Irving managing to punish Lily; winning an argument with Gregoir and having the Mage PC become a Warden (should s/he have betrayed Jowan earlier, the Right of Conscription is not used), having authority to declare the mages for the Grey Wardens; having the authority to just bring a group of mages to Redcliff without any templars.



[quote]

Not it doesn't because Tevinter is different with a capital
"D".  Tevinter has a different culture, different chantry, and
completely different attitude towards magic and morality in general than pretty
much everyone else.  Tevinter is the boogyman that the Orlesian chantry
uses to punish mages, and I don't buy it.



-Polaris

[/quote]

What exactly do you not buy? That Tevinter is a horrible place for anyone not powerful enough to become a Magister despite numerous codex entries and at least three characters describing how awful it is? Or that magic once ruled all the land and, given half a chance, it will do so again despite magic’s clear potential to take over society’s infrastructure and the human tendency towards hostility, ambition, rivalry, selfishness? Tyranny can occur in any culture.

Modifié par MisterJB, 20 janvier 2013 - 02:05 .

[Siharaa]

Presumably he doesn't buy that Free Mages = Tevinter

Most people are good people. Most templars are not Ser Alrik, most Knight Commanders are not Meredith, most mages are not Denarius.

Fenris & Anders are good examples of both sides. Anders resents the unjust and unnecessary restrictions placed on mages because he and his kith suffered greatly due to a few Templars. Fenris hates and fears magic because he was enslaved and abused by two mages. Both viewpoints are irrational and extreme. They are also justified.

Would Templar supporters be willing to submit themselves, their spouse / siblings / parents to Circle restrictions and possible Tranquility? Because that's the usual litmus test.

Modifié par Siharaa, 20 janvier 2013 - 07:20 .

[MisterJB]

Most people are only as "good" as fear of reprisal forces them to be. Promise mages the power to do as they please with his fellow man like the Magisters do and watch as they tear each other apart in their rush to be the first in line.
Not that I believe any mundane would act any differently if given the chance.

Modifié par MisterJB, 20 janvier 2013 - 08:58 .

[Siharaa]

That's a cynical and strange way to think. I think most people are 'good'. It's the default position of humankind, a position generated by social and rational self interest.

But that goes a long way to explaining why you think the way you do.

Modifié par Siharaa, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:07 .

[MisterJB]

You believe I'm, what, irrational?

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

You believe I'm, what, irrational?

Basically yes.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

Basically, I'm right and you're wrong.

[andy6915]

MisterJB wrote...

Basically, I'm right and you're wrong.

Wow, what a strong argument! Seriously good ser, I am in awe of your skill with words!

Seriously though, as someone who has watched this debate closely... You just forfeited it. You pretty much just went "I'm right you're wrong now shut up" and went home. Talk about a bad finish...

[BlueMagitek]

I disagree, Polaris declared he was irrational first. :/

But that really has nothing to do with it. A lot of people are to blame for what happened.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...
That asking mundanes and mages to see each other as equals is asking a bit too much.

I was speaking more from a Templar-Mage working relationship, as opposed to an in general mundane-mage relationship.

True but he also admitted that he would be willing to look into it in calmer times, not when mages were looking for reasons to rebel.

But trying to hide that information is giving them reasons to rebel. If you're not looking into alternatives that might make the Circle more amenable to both sides, then the Mages will feel even more oppressed. The Mages will feel the Templars don't want the RoT to be reversible at all.

Besides, I don't think Tranquility should be reversed except in the mages Alrik mutilated.

Agreed on the Alrikized Mages.

And I think that perhaps every Mage should be able to have a detailed account of what Tranquility is like. A mage that voluntarily submitted to it should be made Tranquil for a while, reversed, and then asked to give an account of what it was like -- and then choose to go back to it or remain.

That way Mages could have a deeper understanding of Tranquility. Just hearing it from a Mage who's never experienced it or a Tranquil isn't going to really give them much to work with. One is devoid of emotions -- a vital aspect of the soul -- so can you really believe him? The other hasn't experienced it, but is afraid of what such a life would be like.

It's certainly not a fate I'd wish upon anyone though.

Was it ever revealed if Pharamond voluntarily submitted to it? I know he didn't want to return to it, but that implies that it was never his choice.

MisterJB wrote...

In fact, most of the more overzealous templars we meet; such as Meredith or Cullen; have become so due to having experienced first hands the dangers of magic, not because of religious teaching.

"Most"? Hardly. Alrik, Karras, Mettin, the Templar looking for Feynriel, and the one that wants Hawke dead for Karras' death are all fanatical overzealous Templars. That last one will pursue Hawke even if Hawke didn't instigate conflict at all but had to defend himself from Karras' attack.

Even Kirkwall is noted, by Mage and Templar alike, to have become home to more overzealous Templars since Meredith came to her position. And she promotes those who hold an extreme viewpoint like herself. There's even a bit of information that says there's been a growing gap between the Templars being vigilant saviors of society and tyrannical oppressors.

MisterJB wrote...

It’s a lore inconsistency due to gameplay needs. At most, it raises the possibility of lyrium not being need. Emphasis on “possibility”.

Alistair will say that Templars ingest lyrium only when they've taken their vows, which he'll also point out is something he's never done. He also says he was recruited in part for his Templar abilities by Duncan, indicating that he was still capable of doing it. 

He then will tell the Warden that being a Templar requires a disciplined mind and that the Chantry told them that lyrium isn't really needed but is just an amplifier IIRC -- and then questions whether that's true even.

So there's a lot of in-game lore evidence from Alistair's words alone to point to lyrium not being a requirement for Templar abilities. It's not just the gameplay making the argument.

IanPolaris wrote...

What happened to the Dales was an object lesson to any
nation that would challenge the chantry, and don't think
the rest of the kingdoms haven't notice.

True enough, the World of Thedas lore book coming out soon says that nations tend to join an Exalted March mainly for fear of being branded a heretical heathen if they don't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 janvier 2013 - 03:24 .

[Siharaa]

Mister JB if you were talking to me, no, not irrational. I think my basic belief is people are good / indifferent by nature, yours is that people are only as good as you force them to be. Which seems to be why you think mages require serious punitive measures as a matter of course.