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[CrimsonZephyr]

"True enough, the World of Thedas lore book coming out soon says that nations tend to join an Exalted March mainly for fear of being branded a heretical heathen if they don't."

Which will likely change now that the Chantry is effectively toothless without the Templars.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Your so-called solution is really what we would call a medium security prison.  Being a mage is not a crime.

Nobody cares. It's not a punishment.

And Thedas doesn't have to deal with the ability to destroy a city block in an afternoon which our society does (anyone that has passed high school chemistry can do this with one trip to the local hardware store...and the information to do this is easily available on-line).

Yet, we don't imprison people after taking chemistry courses.  Your dismissal of the moral argument (which btw is valid in Thedas...even Wynne uses modern post WWII language in this regard w/r/t the circle) is pure sophistry.

Completely different scenario. So stupid it's not even comparable.
Unless taking chemisty corses means you can also open portals to hell? Or hear voices that can take control over your body? Or can blow up a city block WITHOUT collecting large quantities of trackable substances?

It is when you want to recruit police and ultimately templars are SUPPOSED to be police.

It's not.
Military AND police in the real world are recruited with the standards of zeal and obedince. Zeal in their job. Belief in the laws.
How is that different? It's not.

It is canon.  Alistair in DAO uses templar abilities but does not use lyrium.

Except that boks and all other lore contradict it.

Sure, and Meredith was the paragon of moderatation and sanity.....right.....

In fact the Chantry has done a lousy job.  17 Annuments in 900 years (actually less since the circles were founded after the divine era began) is a horrific record.  It is the wiping out of an entire tower down to the last little mage boy and girl about once a generation.

It has done a great job.
It's not a bad record, considering there are hunderds of circles and considering how insane mages can get.

Also Meredith was a great templar before going insane. Orsino was the silver-tounged snake.

Wrong.  It is very reasonable.

Only if you consider secularity a great and necessary thing.

Irving very clearly does not have equal say.  Irving has the authority that Gregoire permits him.  I would replay DAO again if that is in any way unclear.

Irwing has plenty of say. And there was alos clear proof of Jowans involvment.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 janvier 2013 - 11:22 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Siharaa wrote...
That's a cynical and strange way to think. I think most people are 'good'. It's the default position of humankind, a position generated by social and rational self interest.

But that goes a long way to explaining why you think the way you do.

Power corrupts.
And no one has more personal power than mages.
....that's without counting in demonic possesion.

[MisterJB]

andy69156915 wrote...
Wow, what a strong argument! Seriously good ser, I am in awe of your skill with words!
Seriously though, as someone who has watched this debate closely... You just forfeited it. You pretty much just went "I'm right you're wrong now shut up" and went home. Talk about a bad finish...

I finished nothing. Polaris declared me irrational and I responded in a manner as hostile as he chose to carry himself. Should he decide to adress my points in my previous post directed to him, I'll be here to answer.

Siharaa wrote...

Mister JB if you were talking to me, no,
not irrational. I think my basic belief is people are good / indifferent
by nature, yours is that people are only as good as you force them to
be. Which seems to be why you think mages require serious punitive
measures as a matter of course.

Well, that's fair. I think you are wrong but that's a fair viewpoint.

[Siharaa]

Lotion - did you miss the rather heavy handed DA2 analogy to WW2 - Ser Alrik's 'Tranquil Solution'?

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I was speaking more from a Templar-Mage working relationship, as opposed to an in general mundane-mage relationship.

Same thing applies. Templar and Mages will never see each other as equals.

But trying to hide that information is giving them reasons to rebel. If you're not looking into alternatives that might make the Circle more amenable to both sides, then the Mages will feel even more oppressed. The Mages will feel the Templars don't want the RoT to be reversible at all.

Or should it be revealed that the Rite is reversible, mages like Adrian will start screaming their lungs out demanding all Tranquil be "restored" and should any templar even try to point out that there is a reason these mages were made Tranquil in the first place, they will declare it as proof of opression.

In fact, Adrian does this not five minutes after Pharamond is restored. Evangeline, who is aactually a mage sympathizer and saved Adrian from being lynched not two days ago, tries to point out he is even more dangerous now because he can't control his emotions; which is a side effect of being restored and a very good point mind you; and Adrian is all like "You see, you see! See what they do to us! They're evil I tell you!"

Would someone slap some sense into this mage?

And I think that perhaps every Mage should be able to have a detailed account of what Tranquility is like. A mage that voluntarily submitted to it should be made Tranquil for a while, reversed, and then asked to give an account of what it was like -- and then choose to go back to it or remain.

That way Mages could have a deeper understanding of Tranquility. Just hearing it from a Mage who's never experienced it or a Tranquil isn't going to really give them much to work with. One is devoid of emotions -- a vital aspect of the soul -- so can you really believe him? The other hasn't experienced it, but is afraid of what such a life would be like.

It's certainly not a fate I'd wish upon anyone though.

Well, gaining a greater understanding of the Rite is not something I'm opposed to. However, not only would the testimony of a restored mage be less than objective due to their inability to control their emotions; this is also dangerous because, as we know, emotions place mages in risk of being possessed.
And, as unplesant as it might be, I'd say the Rite has its place. There are mages who are simply criminals and would harm no one if made Tranquil and then there are mages like Feinryel whose powers are simply too dangerous to permit to exist uncontrolled

Was it ever revealed if Pharamond voluntarily submitted to it? I know he didn't want to return to it, but that implies that it was never his choice.

It wasn't reall specified why he was made Tranquil, I believe.

"Most"? Hardly. Alrik, Karras, Mettin, the Templar looking for Feynriel, and the one that wants Hawke dead for Karras' death are all fanatical overzealous Templars. That last one will pursue Hawke even if Hawke didn't instigate conflict at all but had to defend himself from Karras' attack.

Those templars are hardly fanatical. They are overzealous but they rarely, if ever, use the Maker as justification for their actions.

Even Kirkwall is noted, by Mage and Templar alike, to have become home to more overzealous Templars since Meredith came to her position. And she promotes those who hold an extreme viewpoint like herself. There's even a bit of information that says there's been a growing gap between the Templars being vigilant saviors of society and tyrannical oppressors.

That is true but we are told by Bethany and...that girl Hawke saves from Alrik, can't really remember her name... through letters from the Circle that most templars are actually happy Alrik is gone and that they have no interest in harming mages, they only want things to return to normal.
The trouble arose because while in Ferelden, when Cullen demands all mages be slain because they MIGTH be possessed, Gregoir is there to shush him, in Kirkwall, it's the Knight Commander that is advocating "kIll them all and may the Maker sort them out" tactics.
Of course, having a First Enchanter willing to give assistance to blood mages didn't help matters either.

Alistair will say that Templars ingest lyrium only when they've taken their vows, which he'll also point out is something he's never done. He also says he was recruited in part for his Templar abilities by Duncan, indicating that he was still capable of doing it. 

He then will tell the Warden that being a Templar requires a disciplined mind and that the Chantry told them that lyrium isn't really needed but is just an amplifier IIRC -- and then questions whether that's true even.

So there's a lot of in-game lore evidence from Alistair's words alone to point to lyrium not being a requirement for Templar abilities. It's not just the gameplay making the argument.

Yes, but then we have the templars in front of the Chantry in Denerim telling us that with lyrium, there are no templars; Evangeline who clearly says that she couldn't use any of her abilities without Lyrium; and in the comic series, when faced with Yavana, Alistair uses none of his templars abilities. But later, when confronted with Magister Titus, he basically b*tchslaps the magic out of him and makes a remark of having picked some Lyrium along the way. Clearly, he is using it now.

True enough, the World of Thedas lore book coming out soon says that nations tend to join an Exalted March mainly for fear of being branded a heretical heathen if they don't.

No, not true. Obviously, every nation wants to stay on the good side of the most powerful organization in the world that controls the minds and hearts of most of the human population. However, there is a difference between disobeying the Chantry and pillage its seat which is what the Dales did.
The Dales did not have an Exhalted March declared on them just because of their unwillingness to convert.

[MisterJB]

Siharaa wrote...

Lotion - did you miss the rather heavy handed DA2 analogy to WW2 - Ser Alrik's 'Tranquil Solution'?

Your point being that Ser Alrik's power corrupted him, yes? Therefore, mundanes are also dangerous.

However, Ser Alrik was an high ranked Knight serving in a City where the Knight Commander held more power than the Viscount and was extremely unsympathetic to the mages, therefore he could get away with his breaking of Chantry Law. Basically, there needed to be a very specific set of conditions in order for him to abuse his power.

Mages don't require these specific set of conditions. Meredith's sister was born to a peasant family who held no power over others. Then suddenly, there is a demon and 73 innocents are dead.

[Siharaa]

 "Your dismissal of the moral argument (which btw is valid in Thedas...even Wynne uses modern post WWII language in this regard w/r/t the circle) is pure sophistry."

Completely different scenario. So stupid it's not even comparable"

I was specifically responding to Lotion's point above that there was no similarity between 'post-WW2 language' and the Circle situation. I was pointing out that 'Tranquil Solution' is a clear analogy for genocide.

[MisterJB]

I believe Lotion meant that there is no similarity between people who; through great effort and work; can create homemad bombs and mages who are born with the ability to set others on fire just by being angry with them.

[LobselVith8]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

"True enough, the World of Thedas lore book coming out soon says that nations tend to join an Exalted March mainly for fear of being branded a heretical heathen if they don't."

Which will likely change now that the Chantry is effectively toothless without the Templars.

I would imagine so. I have to wonder what their defection means for the lyrium supply on the surface that the Chantry exclusively controls, since templars are highly addicted to the substance. Armed and armored addicts without their fix, and outside Chantry control; I wonder how perceptions about the templars might change, now that they are waging war against mages who refuse to live a life of servitude to the Chantry.

It would also be an opportune time for the elves in occupied Dales to rebel and reclaim their homeland, while rebel mages across the continent fight to maintain their autonomy against the templars and the Seekers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Siharaa wrote...
Lotion - did you miss the rather heavy handed DA2 analogy to WW2 - Ser Alrik's 'Tranquil Solution'?

Heavy handed analogy?
No, not really.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Same thing applies. Templar and Mages will never see each other as equals.

I wouldn't say "never". Regardless, I'd be content with a Gregoir-Irving relationship where, ideally, the Chantry wasn't pressuring either to make a decision they didn't agree with and where the two of them could discuss the matter.

Brings to mind my idea for reformation of the Circle system that I've proposed in the past.

Or should it be revealed that the Rite is reversible, mages like Adrian will start screaming their lungs out demanding all Tranquil be "restored" and should any templar even try to point out that there is a reason these mages were made Tranquil in the first place, they will declare it as proof of opression.

In fact, Adrian does this not five minutes after Pharamond is restored. Evangeline, who is aactually a mage sympathizer and saved Adrian from being lynched not two days ago, tries to point out he is even more dangerous now because he can't control his emotions; which is a side effect of being restored and a very good point mind you; and Adrian is all like "You see, you see! See what they do to us! They're evil I tell you!"

Would someone slap some sense into this mage?

Were his emotions more volatile, or was that just what they were seeing? Does he say anything that indicates it? Granted, it makes a lot of sense given that the Fade is the realm of emotions and being touched by a being that lives there would bring it back, but Karl -- who experienced a reversal temporarily -- didn't seem to have any volatile emotions.

Either way, I'll agree that Adrian is the worst example the Mages could look to, and hopefully they won't look to her for guidance. Noble intentions, but that's about all that she's got going for her IMO. Her methods suck, she sounds like she doesn't really think things through, etc.

Well, gaining a greater understanding of the Rite is not something I'm opposed to. However, not only would the testimony of a restored mage be less than objective due to their inability to control their emotions; this is also dangerous because, as we know, emotions place mages in risk of being possessed.

Would it be less objective? They'd have experienced Tranquility and being normal both, so they'd be able to say what both sides were like. And that's *if* the capacity for emotional control was rendered a bit more volatile, as I'm hesitant to believe what Lambert claims -- even if Evangeline herself believes it as well.

And, as unplesant as it might be, I'd say the Rite has its place. There are mages who are simply criminals and would harm no one if made Tranquil

Oh I'm not trying to say it's not useful. Just that it's not something I'm going to be content with. Like how I have to always turn my head away when the Mabari in the Ostagar scene takes a sword to the belly. 

Can't stomach watching that. It's painful to watch.

and then there are mages like Feinryel whose powers are simply too dangerous to permit to exist uncontrolled

Feynriel's an exceptional case, and one who can gain mastery over his powers whilst remaining a good person.

Those templars are hardly fanatical. They are overzealous but they rarely, if ever, use the Maker as justification for their actions.

They all do. Alrik says they were given a sacred task by the Maker in a letter to Bardel, Mettin also invokes the Maker, the one pursuing Hawke for Karras' death does as well, and IIRC Karras does himself at some point in time.

That is true but we are told by Bethany and...that girl Hawke saves from Alrik, can't really remember her name... through letters from the Circle that most templars are actually happy Alrik is gone and that they have no interest in harming mages, they only want things to return to normal.

True, but it's noted in Carver's Templar codex -- and Bethany's Circle Mage codex -- that abuses go on by the superiors. And Act 3 shows us enough to see that the Templars are being tasked to do things that go beyond what they were instructed.

And Ella even notes that Kirkwall is facing dark days ahead.

Of course, having a First Enchanter willing to give assistance to blood mages didn't help matters either.

He didn't know how deranged the man was until Quentin sent him the notes on the Harvester ritual. This is what he says if Bethany was made a Circle Mage.

And he doesn't "give assistance to blood mages" as if he supports it regularly. He'll tell Hawke that if the Mages who have been meeting at night -- something he's been unable to investigate properly because of Templar lockdown, as opposed to Irving who didn't have that going on with Jowan -- use blood magic or anything else sinister, that they should be dealt with.

The man is willing to properly control the Mages, so long as all of the Mages aren't punished for the actions of a few.

He even tries to get Meredith to relent on an unjustified, unwarranted, and unethical RoA by promising assistance in rooting out blood mages when it's obvious how far over the edge she's jumped -- and his stance as a man who stands up for his charges tells me that he would've given himself up, so long as the rest of the Mages weren't punished.

I'm led to believe, based on the scant information we have, that Quentin led Orsino to believe he would be researching a way to truly bring the dead back to life and perhaps Orsino felt that his old colleague would be doing it ethically. And then when he was sent Quentin's research on the Harvester, he realized the folly of his actions and severed all ties to the man.

But he couldn't do anything to really stop it, because of the malevolent air the Circle of Kirkwall had where Mages and Templars can't work together due to Meredith's actions ever since she ascended to the role of Knight-Commander.

Yes, but then we have the templars in front of the Chantry in Denerim telling us that with lyrium, there are no templars; Evangeline who clearly says that she couldn't use any of her abilities without Lyrium; and in the comic series, when faced with Yavana, Alistair uses none of his templars abilities. But later, when confronted with Magister Titus, he basically b*tchslaps the magic out of him and makes a remark of having picked some Lyrium along the way. Clearly, he is using it now.

Sure. But I'm just saying that it seems they've retconned it when in DAO there was a lot of information to say otherwise.

The Dales did not have an Exhalted March declared on them just because of their unwillingness to convert.

I was just backing IanPolaris' statement that the other nations back the Chantry during Exalted Marches out of fear mostly, which is indeed true. The book says that in Exalted Marches of the past, nations felt pressured to join for fear of being branded traitors to the faith if they didn't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 janvier 2013 - 05:51 .

[Siharaa]

One big difference is that Irving was able to go to Gregoire and say, "Hey, I think one of my apprentices is a blood mage, and in collusion with one of your Sisters." And instead of annulling the Ferelden Circle and covering up for his Sister, The Knight Commander helped the First Enchanter deal with a problem.

Can you imagine that interaction between Meredith and Orsino?

Orsino: "Meredith, I think one of my people is a blood mage."
Meredith: "Awesome! I've now got the excuse I need to slaughter the lot of you because I'm traumatised about an incident from my past!"

I think, psychologically, it was clever of Bioware to have Orsino as an elf - a persecuted and marginalised minority in Thedas.

(If I need to provide evidence of that; the Alienages; the elves who report the rape of their sister and are ignored; the psychopath who kept kidnapping elven children and torturing them to death (got away with it) etc)

Modifié par Siharaa, 22 janvier 2013 - 09:29 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Feynriel's an exceptional case, and one who can gain mastery over his powers whilst remaining a good person.

Belive that if you wish. But being a "good person" is largely irrelevant.

They all do. Alrik says they were given a sacred task by the Maker in a letter to Bardel, Mettin also invokes the Maker, the one pursuing Hawke for Karras' death does as well, and IIRC Karras does himself at some point in time.

Mentioning the Makers name hardly makes one a religious fanatic.

True, but it's noted in Carver's Templar codex -- and Bethany's Circle Mage codex -- that abuses go on by the superiors.

Some abusers get away?
Well that's totally unexpected...such a thing NEVER happens today.

He didn't know how deranged the man was until Quentin sent him the notes on the Harvester ritual. This is what he says if Bethany was made a Circle Mage.

Suuuure. Let's trust Orsino on his word because he's a mage.
Meanwhile, let's not trust anything a templar sez.

He even tries to get Meredith to relent on an unjustified, unwarranted, and unethical RoA by promising assistance in rooting out blood mages when it's obvious how far over the edge she's jumped -- and his stance as a man who stands up for his charges tells me that he would've given himself up, so long as the rest of the Mages weren't punished.

And mere moments before he was protesting and rasing a hell of a s***storm because of a simple tower search.
A tower search that would probably find links between him and some blood mages...like Quentin.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Siharaa wrote...

One big difference is that Irving was able to go to Gregoire and say, "Hey, I think one of my apprentices is a blood mage, and in collusion with one of your Sisters." And instead of annulling the Ferelden Circle and covering up for his Sister, The Knight Commander helped the First Enchanter deal with a problem.

Can you imagine that interaction between Meredith and Orsino?

Orsino: "Meredith, I think one of my people is a blood mage."
Meredith: "Awesome! I've now got the excuse I need to slaughter the lot of you because I'm traumatised about an incident from my past!"

I always find it funny that mage supporters condemn anyone who fear mages becaquse of what they MIGHT do...and then they condment templars (or in this case Meredith) because of what she MIGHT do.

There was no indication that she would call a RoA if she found a blood mage in the Circle. She was conducting the Tower search precisely to find out who it was. And remember, Elthina was there so the RoA would have to go by her.

She called for the RoA after the Chantry was blown up..and at that point she totally snapped.

And given all the s*** going on in Kirkwall I'm surprised anyone is sane.

[Siharaa]

No, mage supporters condemn Meredith because she:

* Had already called for Right of Annulment for no real reason
* Because she had turned a blind eye to her charges behaviour - In their respective quests, Meredith asks you to chase Blood Mages, Orsino asks you to investigate the Circle for Blood Mages. See the difference?

At no point did Meredith accept that her Templars were behaving badly or acting in a corrupt manner. Orsino did accept that some of his Mages were behaving badly and needed to be sorted out.

A Templar proposed the psychological equivalent of the Final Solution and merely got his proposal rejected - Anders is shocked that they rejected it, but I'm shocked that the guy wasn't bounced out of the Templars.

If a teacher proposed to the Education Secretary that all children be nerve stapled because it would make his job easier, would anyone think he was fit to be a teacher? No.

[TEWR]

But being a "good person" is largely irrelevant.

Not largely, but not the overriding factor in deciding whether a Mage should retain his sense of self or not.

But for Feynriel, the only place with the appropriate knowledge on who he is was Tevinter. I'd rather exhaust the last possible avenue and send him there then make him Tranquil, since in the Act 2 quest as he's about to leave the Fade he actually gained control of his powers -- it's how he's able to leave of his own volition. Hawke's assistance helped him gain control.

He goes there, gains mastery over his powers, comes to understand the Templars from the **** he's seen in Tevinter, and is still a good person.

Using Feynriel for justification for Tranquililty of non-Somniari isn't sound logic. 

Mentioning the Makers name hardly makes one a religious fanatic.

When they relate the atrocities they're committing to it being "a sacred task given by the Maker to us", then uh... yes it does. But all Templars are white knights and all Mages are dumbasses.

Some abusers get away?
Well that's totally unexpected...such a thing NEVER happens today.

Those same abusers are the superiors over the better minded Templars, and Meredith has a proven track record of delegating tasks to extremist Templars and promoting them for their viewpoints. She's letting them slide. 

Suuuure. Let's trust Orsino on his word because he's a mage.

The man who supports the Circle system under the Chantry as an idea and wants it to exist is about to off himself.

He's got absolutely no reason to lie, not when his link to Quentin doesn't matter anymore. The Mages are dying left and right around him for an act they had nothing to do with.

And mere moments before he was protesting and rasing a hell of a s***storm because of a simple tower search.
A tower search that would probably find links between him and some blood mages...like Quentin.

Posting what CrimsonZephyr wrote on another thread.

Considering the sheer amount of damage they end up doing to the rest of the city and its people, this is highly arguable. You are coming from the perspective that there are innocents within the Circle, which is true. However, one must think of the innocents outside the Circle, whom the Templars are also responsible for protecting.=, and the potential for abominations to break out among them

The mages weren't even in rebellion until Meredith decided to provoke them into it. You'd have to be out of your goddamn mind to think that inflaming tensions would do the so-called innocent mundanes any good. Orsino was resisting having the entire Circle searched because Meredith makes that kind of demand every single day. Her paranoia is so great, every little mishap calls for a massive response. None of that would have happened if Meredith accepted Orsino's surrender, or better yet, if she had simply arrested Anders and locked down the Gallows.

Actually, know what? Just read his responses in this thread, because it's more then just that one post that shows how Meredith's in the wrong.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 janvier 2013 - 10:30 .

[DragonSailor]

Ok, I didn't read all the comments yet, but I think I have something new to bring to this discussion.

MisterJB wrote...

First of all, it's true that mundane nobles can and have abused their power. However, it's bad enough that there are nobles who through money and social position; things that have no true value beyond what we give to them; can abuse others.
We don't need nobles who can control people with their minds or shoot fire fire from their fingertips.

This made me stop and think. Can all mages shoot fire fromt their fingertips? We know that they have the potential to learn primal spells but not all might have the ability. Surely not every mage is the same kind of dangerous. I don't know specifally if there are mages who can't do certain things, but we do know that ability is varied-Jowan tells you in the Gauntlet that he never had your ability; Bethany, because of her blood and training, is a lot better and controlled than other circle mages. How would this affect the whole 'the system does/doesn't need to be changed debate'? I mean, if not every mage can do serious elemental magic, treat them like they can? Maybe the templars can afford to ease up because strong magic is rare. The rigid rules aren't really necessary. Or, on the other hand, does differing power levels completely justify the chantry, because mages don't know their own strength and the potential to hurt is there. Being a weaker mage would mean that your more susceptible to possession, and so I suppose you'd make them tranquil. But then, being a stronger mage means that you have the power and ability to do advanced magic, and consequently do serious damage. You'd have the strength to summon demons and do complicated magics and blood magic. Moreover, the demons that would possess them would be even stronger, because it would take more to possess them and break their will. So why wouldn't templars just make them tranquil too? I don't know. It seems to me like the Chantry always has something to fear. The only way to solve that is extermination, either by death or tranquility. I understand they have take precaution--they should--but does that mean they have to let fear of the unknown take over and rule their lives?

I don't know if anyone followed all that, but it just seems like Meredith would have went crazy even without sword. Being a a templar has to be a permanent state of paranoia. You'll always find a good reason to abuse your power/quiet a mage.

Finally, a few people brought up Andraste and I'm noticing as I playthrough DA:O again and read all the codex entries, that there are a couple of suggestions that Andraste was a mage. Even if you ignore the possiblity that the fire the maker rained down and scorched the earth with was really Andraste, if she was a mage, well... It took a mage to bring down other mages. It took magic or magic-like abilities to bring down mages. Maybe the templars and the chantry are waging a war they can never win. Maybe they shouldn't be policicing the mages; maybe mages have to police themselves because they are the only ones with the knowledge and (natural & unlimited) power to do so.

[dragonflight288]

DragonSailor wrote...

Ok, I didn't read all the comments yet, but I think I have something new to bring to this discussion.

MisterJB wrote...

First of all, it's true that mundane nobles can and have abused their power. However, it's bad enough that there are nobles who through money and social position; things that have no true value beyond what we give to them; can abuse others.
We don't need nobles who can control people with their minds or shoot fire fire from their fingertips.

This made me stop and think. Can all mages shoot fire fromt their fingertips? We know that they have the potential to learn primal spells but not all might have the ability. Surely not every mage is the same kind of dangerous. I don't know specifally if there are mages who can't do certain things, but we do know that ability is varied-Jowan tells you in the Gauntlet that he never had your ability; Bethany, because of her blood and training, is a lot better and controlled than other circle mages. How would this affect the whole 'the system does/doesn't need to be changed debate'? I mean, if not every mage can do serious elemental magic, treat them like they can? Maybe the templars can afford to ease up because strong magic is rare. The rigid rules aren't really necessary. Or, on the other hand, does differing power levels completely justify the chantry, because mages don't know their own strength and the potential to hurt is there. Being a weaker mage would mean that your more susceptible to possession, and so I suppose you'd make them tranquil. But then, being a stronger mage means that you have the power and ability to do advanced magic, and consequently do serious damage. You'd have the strength to summon demons and do complicated magics and blood magic. Moreover, the demons that would possess them would be even stronger, because it would take more to possess them and break their will. So why wouldn't templars just make them tranquil too? I don't know. It seems to me like the Chantry always has something to fear. The only way to solve that is extermination, either by death or tranquility. I understand they have take precaution--they should--but does that mean they have to let fear of the unknown take over and rule their lives?

I don't know if anyone followed all that, but it just seems like Meredith would have went crazy even without sword. Being a a templar has to be a permanent state of paranoia. You'll always find a good reason to abuse your power/quiet a mage.

Finally, a few people brought up Andraste and I'm noticing as I playthrough DA:O again and read all the codex entries, that there are a couple of suggestions that Andraste was a mage. Even if you ignore the possiblity that the fire the maker rained down and scorched the earth with was really Andraste, if she was a mage, well... It took a mage to bring down other mages. It took magic or magic-like abilities to bring down mages. Maybe the templars and the chantry are waging a war they can never win. Maybe they shouldn't be policicing the mages; maybe mages have to police themselves because they are the only ones with the knowledge and (natural & unlimited) power to do so.

Interesting ideas.

Although I'm a mage supporter, I actually kind of against the mages strictly policing themselves. It wouldn't be long before we'd have another pyramid of cards going. It comes down to a simple question, "who's watching the watchmen?"

I think something from Oblivions Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2, the Sith Lords, is somewhat relevent.

Atris was a jedi master who felt the jedi order grew too arrogant and couldn't be trusted to police themselves to watch for the dark side, so she gathered some echani sisters trained to resist the Force so they would watch the Jedi.

When the exile questions these Echani, it becomes clear that Atris leads them, that's never made a secret. The Echani never question Atris's leadership, and follow her almost blindly. The exile can comment that although they watch the Jedi, it's a Jedi who watches them, and thus it's a pazzak pyramid. The Echani then show their lack of knowledge and experience with the world by questioning the reference and meaning, completely missing that it's a commentary that their foundation is a weak.

I think mages need to be part of investigating other mages. I think those with templar abilities are essential when dealing with rogue mages, abominations, and blood mages. I think neither can be completely trusted by themselves. The First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander ned to be equals in authority on all things, not just on paper.

I would like to thank you for pointing out that apostate Bethany had better control over her magic than circle-trained mages.

[TEWR]

Finally, a few people brought up Andraste and I'm noticing as I playthrough DA:O again and read all the codex entries, that there are a couple of suggestions that Andraste was a mage.

You'll find you're not alone in that theory. I have long been a staunch believer in that using the evidence DAO and DAII provide -- and it's not just the codex entries that suggest it.

[MisterJB]

DragonSailor: A few things.
First, neither the Chantry nor we, Templar supporters, fear the unknown. We know magic, we understand it, we are just terrified of it. We fear what we know and understand as dangerous.

Second, it's true that some mages are not as powerful as the others. However, in this situation, I believe the best is to treat all mages equally. Weak mages like Jowan can become powerful through blood magic and the competition that is the outside world increases the chances of them using it. Not to mention that should weak mages be granted greater freedoms, many mages will simply pretend their power is weaker than it actually is.

As for mages policing themselves, you should ask the mundanes of Tevinter how well they like that system. You could ask the same of the elves in Denerim or Kirkwall how much they like humans policing themselves.
No, if mundanes are to receive any justice and mantain a place in the world, templars are needed.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Were his emotions more volatile, or was that just what they were seeing? Does he say anything that indicates it? Granted, it makes a lot of sense given that the Fade is the realm of emotions and being touched by a being that lives there would bring it back, but Karl -- who experienced a reversal temporarily -- didn't seem to have any volatile emotions.

His emotions are definitively more volatile. Pharamond says so himself he can't control them and the sligthest stimulus produces an extreme reaction.
This side effect had probrably not been conceived by Mr.Gaider during DA2.

Would it be less objective? They'd have experienced Tranquility and being normal both, so they'd be able to say what both sides were like. And that's *if* the capacity for emotional control was rendered a bit more volatile, as I'm hesitant to believe what Lambert claims -- even if Evangeline herself believes it as well.

Reaction to suffering will always be subjective. You can meet people who'd say they'd rather die than having a limb amputated.
And, as I said before, his emotions are more volatile. Pharamond himself acknowledges this.

Oh I'm not trying to say it's not useful. Just that it's not something I'm going to be content with. Like how I have to always turn my head away when the Mabari in the Ostagar scene takes a sword to the belly. 

Can't stomach watching that. It's painful to watch.

For me it's Sansa's near rape in the riot of King's Landing. I love "A Song of Ice and Fire", I have all the books and both series as well as "Tales of Dunk and Egg" but that scene I've only watched once. The acting is just too convincing.

Anyway, I don't think we'll more agree on this than those arguing for and against death penalty will.

Feynriel's an exceptional case, and one who can gain mastery over his powers whilst remaining a good person.

I don't believe that. There is no doubt in me that either Tevinter or his power will corrupt him eventually and then there is a Freddy Krueger on steroids free to roam Thedas.
Tranquility, I believe, is the best solution for Feynriel.

They all do. Alrik says they were given a sacred task by the Maker in a letter to Bardel, Mettin also invokes the Maker, the one pursuing Hawke for Karras' death does as well, and IIRC Karras does himself at some point in time.

Mentioning the Maker once doesn't make someone a fanatical.
That term would better fit Sebastian were it not for its negative connotation and the fact he is a compassionate person.

True, but it's noted in Carver's Templar codex -- and Bethany's Circle Mage codex -- that abuses go on by the superiors. And Act 3 shows us enough to see that the Templars are being tasked to do things that go beyond what they were instructed.

And Ella even notes that Kirkwall is facing dark days ahead.

True but even that same very codex (Bethany's) states how many templars are honest Andrastians who just want to keep people safe.
But yes, abuses ocurred but that is inevitable in any system. Of course, having such a discrepancy between the power of the KC and that of the FE didn't help.

He didn't know how deranged the man was until Quentin sent him the notes on the Harvester ritual. This is what he says if Bethany was made a Circle Mage.

And he doesn't "give assistance to blood mages" as if he supports it regularly. He'll tell Hawke that if the Mages who have been meeting at night -- something he's been unable to investigate properly because of Templar lockdown, as opposed to Irving who didn't have that going on with Jowan -- use blood magic or anything else sinister, that they should be dealt with.

The man is willing to properly control the Mages, so long as all of the Mages aren't punished for the actions of a few.

Orsino is a liar. He provided Quentin with books pertaining necromancy which is only possible through blood magic therefore he had to have some inkling of what he was doing. Likewise, his staunch opposition of Meredith's search came from the fact he was concealing blood mages and that he was a blood mage himself. Becoming an Harvester is certainly not a pop-your-blood magic cherry spell.
Orsino is a liar, don't believe a word he says. If he wasn't a closet mage supremacist, he certainly placed much more value in the lives of mages than that of mundanes.

He even tries to get Meredith to relent on an unjustified, unwarranted, and unethical RoA by promising assistance in rooting out blood mages when it's obvious how far over the edge she's jumped -- and his stance as a man who stands up for his charges tells me that he would've given himself up, so long as the rest of the Mages weren't punished.

You mean that he was willing to sacrifice the blood mages he helped hide in order to save all of his charges.

But he couldn't do anything to really stop it, because of the malevolent air the Circle of Kirkwall had where Mages and Templars can't work together due to Meredith's actions ever since she ascended to the role of Knight-Commander.

The Blood Mage First Enchanter helping other blood mages in the city had nothing to do with it, I'm sure.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:30 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

DragonSailor: A few things.
First, neither the Chantry nor we, Templar supporters, fear the unknown. We know magic, we understand it, we are just terrified of it. We fear what we know and understand as dangerous.

Which comes down to the division between people who support the Chantry controlled Circles and the Order of Templars, and people who advocate against it.

MisterJB wrote...

Second, it's true that some mages are not as powerful as the others. However, in this situation, I believe the best is to treat all mages equally. Weak mages like Jowan can become powerful through blood magic and the competition that is the outside world increases the chances of them using it. Not to mention that should weak mages be granted greater freedoms, many mages will simply pretend their power is weaker than it actually is.

Although people disagree on how mages should be treated. I think magic can be used to help people, as we see with Anders using his magic to help the downtrodden and the destitute in Kirkwall, or the Circle mages using magic to protect Andrastian society from the Qunari invasion during the New Exalted Marches. As Sister Petrice wrote, "The greatest advantage of the Chantry-led forces was the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor great hatred for magic. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire."

Some mages, when given the chance, show how they can use magic outside Chantry and templar control. Like the example you cited of Jowan; he can become 'Master Levyn,' protecting refugees from the Blight, as long as The Warden is willing to give him a chance.

MisterJB wrote...

As for mages policing themselves, you should ask the mundanes of Tevinter how well they like that system. You could ask the same of the elves in Denerim or Kirkwall how much they like humans policing themselves.
No, if mundanes are to receive any justice and mantain a place in the world, templars are needed. 

My Surana Warden asked Queen Anora about it, and she publicly endorsed the mages of the Circle of Ferelden governing themselves. Her husband, King Alistair, has been advocating it as well, given his dialogue in Act III's "King Alistair". I'm pretty sure they count as 'mundanes'.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Which comes down to the division between people who support the Chantry controlled Circles and the Order of Templars, and people who advocate against it.

There are many more divisions than that. I've see users who supported a return to the days of Tevinter, slavery included to anyone without magic.

Although people disagree on how mages should be treated. I think magic can be used to help people, as we see with Anders using his magic to help the downtrodden and the destitute in Kirkwall, or the Circle mages using magic to protect Andrastian society from the Qunari invasion during the New Exalted Marches. As Sister Petrice wrote, "The greatest advantage of the Chantry-led forces was the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor great hatred for magic. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire."

Some mages, when given the chance, show how they can use magic outside Chantry and templar control. Like the example you cited of Jowan; he can become 'Master Levyn,' protecting refugees from the Blight, as long as The Warden is willing to give him a chance.

Sure, and Jowan could have just as easily used his magic to hurt others as many mages such as Quentin and Tarhone have chosen to do. To give people a chance is one thing, to trust them blindly is another.
Human beings; and elves and dwarves and kossith in DA; are naturally tended towards evil. We are conflictuous, selfish, greedy.
Magic can help others while still being controlled by groups with the vetted interest in protecting innocents from mages.

My Surana Warden asked Queen Anora about it, and she publicly endorsed the mages of the Circle of Ferelden governing themselves. Her husband, King Alistair, has been advocating it as well, given his dialogue in Act III's "King Alistair". I'm pretty sure they count as 'mundanes'.

Anyone who think mages should simply police themselves without any help from a mundane force is either an unbelievable idiot or doesn't care in the sligthest about the well being of mundanes.
Alistair I can buy it because he is far more suited to Jester than King but Anora would only endorse mage freedom if she had a system in place to control and use them for the benefit of Ferelden or due to gaming constrictions. That is, it is anticlimatic to just have the Queen tell the Hero "No".

Members of an group will ignore crimes commited by kinsmen against members of a different group. That is fact, that has happened more times in history that can be counted.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which comes down to the division between people who support the Chantry controlled Circles and the Order of Templars, and people who advocate against it.

There are many more divisions than that. I've see users who supported a return to the days of Tevinter, slavery included to anyone without magic.

While we have read some pro-templar people disregard mages as "property of the Chantry". The extreme views go both ways.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Although people disagree on how mages should be treated. I think magic can be used to help people, as we see with Anders using his magic to help the downtrodden and the destitute in Kirkwall, or the Circle mages using magic to protect Andrastian society from the Qunari invasion during the New Exalted Marches. As Sister Petrice wrote, "The greatest advantage of the Chantry-led forces was the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor great hatred for magic. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire."

Some mages, when given the chance, show how they can use magic outside Chantry and templar control. Like the example you cited of Jowan; he can become 'Master Levyn,' protecting refugees from the Blight, as long as The Warden is willing to give him a chance.

Sure, and Jowan could have just as easily used his magic to hurt others as many mages such as Quentin and Tarhone have chosen to do. To give people a chance is one thing, to trust them blindly is another.

Human beings; and elves and dwarves and kossith in DA; are naturally tended towards evil. We are conflictuous, selfish, greedy.
Magic can help others while still being controlled by groups with the vetted interest in protecting innocents from mages.

While we've seen mages fall prey to the likes of Alrik and Karras because mages are controlled by templars in Andrastian society. 

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

My Surana Warden asked Queen Anora about it, and she publicly endorsed the mages of the Circle of Ferelden governing themselves. Her husband, King Alistair, has been advocating it as well, given his dialogue in Act III's "King Alistair". I'm pretty sure they count as 'mundanes'.

Anyone who think mages should simply police themselves without any help from a mundane force is either an unbelievable idiot or doesn't care in the sligthest about the well being of mundanes.
Alistair I can buy it because he is far more suited to Jester than King but Anora would only endorse mage freedom if she had a system in place to control and use them for the benefit of Ferelden or due to gaming constrictions. That is, it is anticlimatic to just have the Queen tell the Hero "No".

Yet Queen Anora will order Greagoir to leave the mages in the new Circle of Ferelden to govern themselves if the Hero of Ferelden perishes by killing the Archdemon.