523 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
While we've seen mages fall prey to the likes of Alrik and Karras because mages are controlled by templars in Andrastian society. 

Kirkwall was an extreme case for both parties. Power is shared far more evenly in other Circles.

Yet Queen Anora will order Greagoir to leave the mages in the new Circle of Ferelden to govern themselves if the Hero of Ferelden perishes by killing the Archdemon.

That is not an argument. That is pointing to something incredibly stupid and self destructive and then claim that it is the correct course of action because someone did it. And it's OOC for Anora because she is not stupid.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Siharaa wrote...

One big difference is that Irving was able to go to Gregoire and say, "Hey, I think one of my apprentices is a blood mage, and in collusion with one of your Sisters." And instead of annulling the Ferelden Circle and covering up for his Sister, The Knight Commander helped the First Enchanter deal with a problem.

Can you imagine that interaction between Meredith and Orsino?

Orsino: "Meredith, I think one of my people is a blood mage."
Meredith: "Awesome! I've now got the excuse I need to slaughter the lot of you because I'm traumatised about an incident from my past!"

I think, psychologically, it was clever of Bioware to have Orsino as an elf - a persecuted and marginalised minority in Thedas.

(If I need to provide evidence of that; the Alienages; the elves who report the rape of their sister and are ignored; the psychopath who kept kidnapping elven children and torturing them to death (got away with it) etc)

That's a great point; while the Circle system as it's presented in Ferelden is flawed, at the very least, there does exist something of a culture of cooperation between the mages and templars. The templars are ultimately the ones in charge, certainly, but their control is not so great as to prevent the Circle from actively functioning, and as you illustrated, both Irving and Greagoir are willing to compromise and work together to solve problems that affects the entire Circle. The Ferelden Circle is a school and prison both, while the one in Kirkwall is just a giant rape camp by the end of DA2. Even considering Uldred's rebellion, I'd definitely take the former over the latter.

Going back to the subject of Elthina, I think she is to some extent culpible in the events that led up to the Chantry's destruction. She's certainly not the only guilty party, she did try and stabilize things to some extent, and she didn't deserve to get blown up, but she was a factor in the spiralling tensions, ironically enough by her own attempts to stay neutral and worst of all, inactive.

The problem with Elthina is, ultimately, she could not approach the Mage vs Templar conflict with anything approaching naunce. In her mind, she has three options; 1) Stay a neutral party involved in the tensions, 2) Give the mages their freedom, or 3) become an active participant in Meredith's crackdown. Suffice it to say, there's a lot of leeway between all these uncompromising options. She could ask the Divine to have Meredith replaced with a more stable Knight-Commander, she could imprison those templars found taking sexual advantage of their charges, she could invite the Fraternies of Magi (such as they are in Kirkwall) to talk about positive steps they could impliment to improve the Circle; there were a lot of steps she could have taken to try and fix things. Would they have worked? Maybe, maybe not, but at the very least, it would have demonstrated her willingness to solve the crisis (it's the thought that counts!) In the end, she simply could not conceive anything beyond the status-quo or an all-or-nothing scenario for any given faction.

Take her response to the Tranquil Solution, for example. When Hawke confronts her, Ser Alrik's papers in hand, she immediately dismisses it as a barracks-room gripe, then launches into a defense of the Rite of Tranquility itself. But the issue isn't the validity of the Rite specifically, it's the fact that it's being used on mages who have passed the Harrowing, in direct violation of Chantry law. She barely even acknowledges the fact, just changes the subject entirely, then bids you good day. On an issue so utterly fractious and divisive as that of mages vs. templars, she simply doesn't have the mental chops to address it beyond blanket statements and pious condecension. It doesn't make her evil, but it does make her woefully ill-equipped for the problems the city was facing, especially since they could be applied as precedent upon Circles elsewhere in Thedas. It's like if Judge Judy was chairing the decision on Roe v. Wade.

And let's not forget that the templars were doing more than just cracking down on the Circle. They were also actively intruding into secular society by turning Kirkwall into their private police state, and blatantly breaking Chantry law at every turn. When gangs of templars are openly executing people in the streets for harbouring mages, when sexual abuse has become endemic against the mages of the Circle, when the rights of everyone, mages and mundanes both are being violated without censure or even comment from Elthina, then quite frankly, she wasn't fit to run a hot dog stand, let alone the Kirkwall Chantry. Again, I don't think she deserved to die, and definitely not in a way that would kick off a world war in the process (thanks for nothing, Anders, you #$^&*%#), just put out to pasture, where her persistant inaction wouldn't harm anyone.  

[TEWR]

For me it's Sansa's near rape in the riot of King's Landing

That too.

Pharamond says so himself

Fair enough. Definitely something to be used only in extreme cases like what Alrik does to Mages.

I don't believe that. There is no doubt in me that either Tevinter or his power will corrupt him eventually and then there is a Freddy Krueger on steroids free to roam Thedas.
Tranquility, I believe, is the best solution for Feynriel

Something tells me Bioware will have Feynriel be an important part of DA3 and no matter what happened to him, he'll show up. Possessed? Freed from it. Made Tranquil? Reversed. Went to Tevinter? Remains a good person.

But you're essentially putting the cart before the horse in saying "He will be an **** like all the other ****s" when Tevinter is noted by Fenris to have Magisters that do refrain from being pricks -- who are on the low end of the Senate, because they're normal Mages not using blood magic.

Feynriel has used his powers for good and remained a good person. I see no reason to believe the man who was raised by his Elven mother -- with Elven blood running through his veins -- and knows how the Elves have suffered will turn into an oppressor of Mages, mundanes, and Elves. Not when he knows what that's like.

No, I see him becoming the Archon that Tevinter desperately needs.

Mentioning the Maker once doesn't make someone a fanatical.

As I said to Lotion, if they're relating what they're doing to the Maker then yes it does.

But yes, abuses ocurred but that is inevitable in any system.

Sure, I'm not going to say the Circle should be some idealistic pap where no abuses occur. It is inevitable. But Meredith made no effort to truly policing the Templars in her ranks, nor did Elthina.

That's why Orsino can't work with the Templars. They're not actually doing their job. I have no doubt that if Gregoir was Knight-Commander of Kirkwall -- or even Cullen -- that Orsino would work well with them because they actually recognize boundaries.

Orsino is a liar. He provided Quentin with books pertaining necromancy which is only possible through blood magic therefore he had to have some inkling of what he was doing.

Sure, he might've known that Quentin was a blood mage.

That alone doesn't say "OMG he's EVIL!!!", because blood magic isn't inherently evil.

Becoming an Harvester is certainly not a pop-your-blood magic cherry spell.

It's also not something you can practice and reverse, so it was definitely his first time doing that spell.

The Blood Mage First Enchanter helping other blood mages in the city had nothing to do with it, I'm sure.

Right... show me where he helps anyone other then Quentin? Show me where the Mages were actual blood mages before they were pushed into it? Show me where he lets other blood mages slide?

Ah, you cannot. Then you can't say "Orsino helps other blood mages" because that makes it sound like it's something he regularly does. Which he doesn't. And Meredith has absolutely no evidence to support her claims.

This is the woman that authorized death squads and hand-picked Mettin to lead said squad tasked with "purging" Mage sympathizers. People who wanted to feed their relatives that were starved and beaten.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Feynriel has used his powers for good and remained a good person. I see no reason to believe the man who was raised by his Elven mother -- with Elven blood running through his veins -- and knows how the Elves have suffered will turn into an oppressor of Mages, mundanes, and Elves. Not when he knows what that's like.

I find this really...disturbing.
The idea that groups of people who were opressed can't rise up and become the opressors is very detached from reality. To avoid using real world examples; that wouldn't end well; I'll just point you to the mundanes of Thedas.
There's this little thing called "Revenge". It's awful.

I'll answer the rest in time.

[TEWR]

The idea that groups of people who were opressed can't rise up and become the opressors is very detached from reality

Good thing I never said that.

I said Feynriel won't become an oppressor. Not that the oppressed never become oppressors.

[MisterJB]

Yes, you did. You said that because Feinriel descends from elves and knows how elves have suffered, he would not become an opressor.
Elves are just as likely to be corrupted by power as humans and there are many elves in Thedas who would like nothing better than get revenge on the humans.

[BlueMagitek]

Isn't the first act of the Dalish Warden to racially insult and threaten some humans who were just kind of lost in the woods?

[TEWR]

Yes, you did. You said that because Feinriel descends from elves and knows how elves have suffered, he would not become an opressor.

Which is not me saying "No oppressed person becomes an oppressor ever". It's me saying "This solitary kid will probably have been taught enough by his mother to know that becoming a monster in Tevinter does nothing good."

That's not even factoring in how the Dalish view magic -- where it's used for the good of their society -- or what he was taught in the Circle, which operates differently then Tevinter's Circle. Culture and the society one grew up in radically affect how one acts.

So sure, anyone that grew up in Tevinter has a high chance of becoming a douchebag, because there the Magisters will insult lesser Mages to the point of breaking their moral center and they just won't care anymore (Hadriana).

But Feynriel grew up in Kirkwall his entire life, with a loving community, and was taught how to use his magic for true good.

You seem certain that Tevinter will corrupt anyone, which isn't true. You also want to try and say a Somniari will have to resort to the same tactics as regular Mages, which... doesn't fly. A Somniari is, by the lore, already more powerful then everyone else.

I'm saying that I just don't see this one person becoming an oppressor when there's nothing to indicate it other then sheer paranoia based on what type of Mage he is.

Elves are just as likely to be corrupted by power as humans and there are many elves in Thedas who would like nothing better than get revenge on the humans.

Well first, Feynriel's a human. All Elven-Human children are human, due to some sort of magic (WoG).

Second, in all the years we talk to Feynriel he doesn't talk about getting revenge on humans.

Third, when he's in Tevinter he's studying under a master on Somniari powers, recognizes the necessity of the Templars by what he's seen, and uses his powers for good.

Fourth, he looks up to Hawke as a sort of role model.

Isn't the first act of the Dalish Warden to racially insult and threaten some humans who were just kind of lost in the woods?

That's Tamlen, who's an idiot. The Warden can kill them or let them go.

Doesn't matter in the long run. Even if the Dalish Warden does the good thing by letting them go, the Elves are still going to be ousted because they're Elves.

And as a note, those humans weren't lost in the woods. They were looting some ruins and then ran away into the woods.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 05:46 .

[BlueMagitek]

Ah, fair enough.

Well, as Indiana Jones shows us, the ones who are stopping the looting are usually in the wrong. Not looking good for the Dalish. ;P

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While we've seen mages fall prey to the likes of Alrik and Karras because mages are controlled by templars in Andrastian society. 

Kirkwall was an extreme case for both parties. Power is shared far more evenly in other Circles.

The Chantry has the power, and the templars enforce their rules. Even Bioware's Michael Hamilton addressed that the Chantry controlled Circle is a "dictatorship".

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet Queen Anora will order Greagoir to leave the mages in the new Circle of Ferelden to govern themselves if the Hero of Ferelden perishes by killing the Archdemon.

That is not an argument. That is pointing to something incredibly stupid and self destructive and then claim that it is the correct course of action because someone did it. And it's OOC for Anora because she is not stupid.

You seem to have forgotten what we were discussing; it's an example of an intelligent "mundane" expressing that she thinks that mages should govern themselves in the Circle of Ferelden even if the Hero of Ferelden perished in defeating the Archdemon Urthemiel.

Queen Anora will also ask Wynne to have a seat in the royal court (which hasn't happened in many years), because she wants to improve the lot of mages in Ferelden (according to Wynne). Clearly, it isn't OOC for Anora; her Epilogue makes it clear that Anora is a visionary who has grand plans for her nation.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Chantry has the power, and the templars enforce their rules. Even Bioware's Michael Hamilton addressed that the Chantry controlled Circle is a "dictatorship".

The mages have rights and freedoms the templars respect. Even Bioware's David Gaider adressed that the Chantry are not heartless opressors.

You seem to have forgotten what we were discussing; it's an example of an intelligent "mundane" expressing that she thinks that mages should govern themselves in the Circle of Ferelden even if the Hero of Ferelden perished in defeating the Archdemon Urthemiel.

Queen Anora will also ask Wynne to have a seat in the royal court (which hasn't happened in many years), because she wants to improve the lot of mages in Ferelden (according to Wynne). Clearly, it isn't OOC for Anora; her Epilogue makes it clear that Anora is a visionary who has grand plans for her nation.

I question the "intelligence" of any mundane who thinks mages should govern themselves. Clearly, it is OOC for Anora because any visionary would understand that mundane-mage coexistance is impossible. At best she could have a plan to pass control from the Chantry's hand to her and then use the mages for her purposes but allowing them to rule themselves just like that? No strings attached? Ridiculous, senseless, self-destructive.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry has the power, and the templars enforce their rules. Even Bioware's Michael Hamilton addressed that the Chantry controlled Circle is a "dictatorship".

The mages have rights and freedoms the templars respect. Even Bioware's David Gaider adressed that the Chantry are not heartless opressors.

The right to follow the orders given to them by the templars and the Chantry, and the freedom to perish at the hands of a sword of mercy. Even the mage protagonist can point out to Alistair that the Circle of Ferelden will do whatever the Chantry tells them to do.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to have forgotten what we were discussing; it's an example of an intelligent "mundane" expressing that she thinks that mages should govern themselves in the Circle of Ferelden even if the Hero of Ferelden perished in defeating the Archdemon Urthemiel.

Queen Anora will also ask Wynne to have a seat in the royal court (which hasn't happened in many years), because she wants to improve the lot of mages in Ferelden (according to Wynne). Clearly, it isn't OOC for Anora; her Epilogue makes it clear that Anora is a visionary who has grand plans for her nation.

I question the "intelligence" of any mundane who thinks mages should govern themselves. Clearly, it is OOC for Anora because any visionary would understand that mundane-mage coexistance is impossible. At best she could have a plan to pass control from the Chantry's hand to her and then use the mages for her purposes but allowing them to rule themselves just like that? No strings attached? Ridiculous, senseless, self-destructive. 

It seems to me that you're claiming it's OOC because Queen Anora takes a stance that you disagree with, as a pro-templar player. That doesn't change that in Origins, Queen Anora publicly advocates that mages have earned the right to govern themselves, whether the Hero of Ferelden asks for the Circle to be given it's independence, or if he gives his life to defeat the Archdemon.

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Fair enough. Definitely something to be used only in extreme cases like what Alrik does to Mages.[/quote]
But there are already mages wanting to restore all Tranquils.
I wish Evangeline would have just killed Wynne, Rhys, Adrian, Shale and Pharamond.

[quote]
As I said to Lotion, if they're relating what they're doing to the Maker then yes it does.
[/quote]
Templars like Alrik are acting on their own urges, not because of the Maker. I could accept that someone tough Tranquilizing all mages wouold be the best solution so as to remove their danger but turning them into sex toys has nothing to do with Andrastianism.

[quote]
That's why Orsino can't work with the Templars. They're not actually doing their job. I have no doubt that if Gregoir was Knight-Commander of Kirkwall -- or even Cullen -- that Orsino would work well with them because they actually recognize boundaries.[/quote]
And I have little doubt that Orsino would have half the fueling Quentin's experiments if given the opportunity.
That Thrask was unwilling to work with him speaks volumes. Not that Thrask is the best judge of character, mind you. Grace, anyone?

[quote]
Sure, he might've known that Quentin was a blood mage.

That alone doesn't say "OMG he's EVIL!!!", because blood magic isn't inherently evil. [/quote]
A rocket launcher isn't inherently evil either but if I discovered someone in my city owned one, I'd report it to the authorities.

[quote]
It's also not something you can practice and reverse, so it was definitely his first time doing that spell.[/quote]
But it's definitively not the first time he used blood magic. If he lies about that, what else did he lie about?

[quote]
Right... show me where he helps anyone other then Quentin? Show me where the Mages were actual blood mages before they were pushed into it? Show me where he lets other blood mages slide?

Ah, you cannot. Then you can't say "Orsino helps other blood mages" because that makes it sound like it's something he regularly does. Which he doesn't. And Meredith has absolutely no evidence to support her claims.[/quote]
We know Orsino is a blood mage, we know his best friend is a blood mage and we know that he was hiding blood mages in the Circle or he wouldn't have opposed Meredith's search so strongly.
Those blood mages in the tower were summoning Pride Demons, those are right below the Old Gods in the soil-your-pants-meter and summoning and controlling them are not things a first timer blood mage can accomplish, they had to have been studying it for some time. Orsino knew and helped them hid.

[quote]This is the woman that authorized death squads and hand-picked Mettin to lead said squad tasked with "purging" Mage sympathizers. People who wanted to feed their relatives that were starved and beaten.[/quote]
Meredith's shortcomings do not justify Orsino's.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Which is not me saying "No
oppressed person becomes an oppressor ever". It's me saying "This
solitary kid will probably have been taught enough by his mother to know
that becoming a monster in Tevinter does nothing good."[/quote]
C'mon, you placed emphasis on his condition as a descendent of elves.

[quote]That's not even factoring in how the Dalish view magic -- where it's used for the good of their society [/quote]
The Magisters would say they serve the greater good. The Dalish are just as mage supremacist as Tevinter.

[quote]or
what he was taught in the Circle, which operates differently then
Tevinter's Circle. Culture and the society one grew up in radically
affect how one acts.[/quote]
True but the souls of all humans are made
of the same mold. We can be tempted by the same things, even if they
manifest in different ways.
I'm sure Feynriel will soon learn that making people obey you is a lot mroe fun than helping them.

[quote]
You
seem certain that Tevinter will corrupt anyone, which isn't true. You
also want to try and say a Somniari will have to resort to the same
tactics as regular Mages, which... doesn't fly. A Somniari is, by the
lore, already more powerful then everyone else.[/quote]
What I am
certain of is that power corrupts; that Tevinter corrupts; and that no
one take the moral high ground when there is a much easier path to
travel, in this case, blood magic.

[quote]I'm saying that I just
don't see this one person becoming an oppressor when there's nothing to
indicate it other then sheer paranoia based on what type of Mage he is.[/quote]
It's not paranoia. It's a fundamented fear based on years of observed human behavior.

[quote]
Well first, Feynriel's a human. All Elven-Human children are human, due to some sort of magic (WoG).[/quote]
What? Magic? What?

[quote]Second, in all the years we talk to Feynriel he doesn't talk about getting revenge on humans. [/quote]
I was speaking of elves in general. There are many elves Vellana who would like nothing best than to kill humans.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 janvier 2013 - 06:17 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The right to follow the orders given to them by the templars and the Chantry, and the freedom to perish at the hands of a sword of mercy. Even the mage protagonist can point out to Alistair that the Circle of Ferelden will do whatever the Chantry tells them to do.

The PC has an opinion, what a shock.
In Origins, we see multiple cases of mages winning arguments against templars, of mages deciding for themselves without consulting the templars and of mages walking outside of the tower without templar supervision. In Asunder, we see Lambert releasing Rhys because the mages protested.
The Circles are not the places of opression mage supporters like to make them out to be.

It seems to me that you're claiming it's OOC because Queen Anora takes a stance that you disagree with, as a pro-templar player. That doesn't change that in Origins, Queen Anora publicly advocates that mages have earned the right to govern themselves, whether the Hero of Ferelden asks for the Circle to be given it's independence, or if he gives his life to defeat the Archdemon.

I am claiming that it is OOC because Anora, a supposedly intelligent person, takes a stupid and self destructive stance that could destroy her country. Should I assume that she had a small brain aneurisma on the spot or that she is acting OOC in order to fit the theme of the Ending?
Maybe she predicted the Chantry would say "No" and realized she wouldn't actually have to do anything. That I could accept.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The right to follow the orders given to them by the templars and the Chantry, and the freedom to perish at the hands of a sword of mercy. Even the mage protagonist can point out to Alistair that the Circle of Ferelden will do whatever the Chantry tells them to do.

The PC has an opinion, what a shock.

Which Alistair - who was trained to be a templar - doesn't dispute when it's brought up.

MisterJB wrote...

In Origins, we see multiple cases of mages winning arguments against templars, of mages deciding for themselves without consulting the templars and of mages walking outside of the tower without templar supervision.

I saw plenty of examples to the contrary. First Enchanter Irving admits to the mage protagonist that things would be different (about Jowan's Rite) if it were up to him. Irving also says: "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

Knight-Commander Greagoir shoots down Warden-Commander Duncan's request for more aid for Ostagar, despite coming at King Cailan's request; Irving openly disagrees with Greagoir, but only one more mage is permitted to leave the Circle Tower, and that's because the protagonist is recruited against Greagoir's wishes through the Right of Conscription.

Wynne is permitted to leave after getting permission, and it's pointed out that she has certain freedoms that are denied to every other Circle mage; Ines is permitted to study a plant that is rumored to grow in Blighted soil, after much of Ferelden was left barren by the Blight; even Wynne admits (in the City of Amaranthine) that she argues against the Circles of Magi breaking free from the Chantry because the Chantry would rather kill all the mages than see them free.

MisterJB wrote...

In Asunder, we see Lambert releasing Rhys because the mages protested.
The Circles are not the places of opression mage supporters like to make them out to be.

We also know that Cole starved to death because the templars forgot he was imprisoned, and wiped away any record of his existance. Perhaps you and I should simply agree to disagree about this matter?

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seems to me that you're claiming it's OOC because Queen Anora takes a stance that you disagree with, as a pro-templar player. That doesn't change that in Origins, Queen Anora publicly advocates that mages have earned the right to govern themselves, whether the Hero of Ferelden asks for the Circle to be given it's independence, or if he gives his life to defeat the Archdemon. 

I am claiming that it is OOC because Anora, a supposedly intelligent person, takes a stupid and self destructive stance that could destroy her country. Should I assume that she had a small brain aneurisma on the spot or that she is acting OOC in order to fit the theme of the Ending?

In other words, it's OOC because Queen Anora takes a stance you personally disagree with?

MisterJB wrote...

Maybe she predicted the Chantry would say "No" and realized she wouldn't actually have to do anything. That I could accept. 

Which is why Queen Anora explicitly orders Knight-Commander Greagoir to leave the mages alone once their new Circle Tower is built in the US Ending, and he concedes to her?

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which Alistair - who was trained to be a templar - doesn't dispute when it's brought up.

Alistair also says the Circle is independant.

I saw plenty of examples to the contrary. First Enchanter Irving admits to the mage protagonist that things would be different (about Jowan's Rite) if it were up to him.

While also deliberately stalling Gregoir so not only Jown is punished but also Lily. The blood mage is punished, the initiate helping the blood mage is also punished. Fair deal.

Knight-Commander Greagoir shoots down Warden-Commander Duncan's request for more aid for Ostagar, despite coming at King Cailan's request; Irving openly disagrees with Greagoir, but only one more mage is permitted to leave the Circle Tower, and that's because the protagonist is recruited against Greagoir's wishes through the Right of Conscription.

So, Gregoir allows some mages to go while still keeping it in a number he is confortable with? It's almost like they're reaching an agreement both can live with rather than just have the templars obey everytime the mages whine. Shocking, I'm aware.
Also, the Right of Conscription is only used if the Warden did not inform Irving of what Jowan was planning on doing. Should the Warden be acting on Irving's behalf, Gregoir is convinced that s/he deserves a reward for the service rendered and allows the Warden to go.

Wynne is permitted to leave after getting permission, and it's pointed out that she has certain freedoms that are denied to every other Circle mage; Ines is permitted to study a plant that is rumored to grow in Blighted soil, after much of Ferelden was left barren by the Blight;

Wynne is permitted to leave, Ines is permited to leave, Finn is permited to leave, Irving and other mages are permited to go to Redcliff, Gregoir redirects the Warden to Irving when the matter of the army comes up, Irving is the one who decides if Dagna is allowed to live in the Tower, etc.

even Wynne admits (in the City of Amaranthine) that she argues against the Circles of Magi breaking free from the Chantry because the Chantry would rather kill all the mages than see them free.

As they should. Working together to reach an agreemtn both sides can live with is one thing, letting all mages everywhere be as free as mundanes is another completely different.

We also know that Cole starved to death because the templars forgot he was imprisoned, and wiped away any record of his existance.

That is entirely unrelated to the matter of mages having a voice inside the tower.
It was an accident, it happens.

Perhaps you and I should simply agree to disagree about this matter?

It's not a matter of personal opinion. The freedoms or lack thereofs of the Circle System are fact. We can disagree on whether the mages have enough or not, but we can't disagree in their existence.
You can't no more disagree with the fact that Chantry Law forbids the Tranquilization of Harrowed mages anymore than I can disagree with the fact that this hasn't always been respected such as in Kirkwall.

In other words, it's OOC because Queen Anora takes a stance you personally disagree with?

It's like I'm talking to a wall here. I wonder if you'd have tought in IC too if Loghain suddenly decided having orlesian in Ferelden would be grand.

Which is why Queen Anora explicitly orders Knight-Commander Greagoir to leave the mages alone once their new Circle Tower is built in the US Ending, and he concedes to her?

Possibly because she knew the Chantry would answer with "Have you gone mad?" and order the Templars to resume their duties. Thus, Anora could put up a good appearance while knowing that his country would be in no danger.

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 janvier 2013 - 06:56 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Which Alistair - who was trained to be a templar - doesn't dispute when it's brought up.[/quote]

Alistair also says the Circle is independant. [/quote]

Technically, as Alistair points out, and even then he's not saying it as though he genuinely believes that's how things are in reality. We know enough to realize that the Circles of Magi are under the control of the Chantry and the Order of Templars, which is the entire premise behind the Magi Boon.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I saw plenty of examples to the contrary. First Enchanter Irving admits to the mage protagonist that things would be different (about Jowan's Rite) if it were up to him.[/quote]

While also deliberately stalling Gregoir so not only Jown is punished but also Lily. The blood mage is punished, the initiate helping the blood mage is also punished. Fair deal. [/quote]

That example doesn't contest my point at all: Irving openly admits that things would be different if it were up to him, but talks about how things are a matter of survival in the Circle. If Irving, as First Enchanter, is simply conceding to what Greagoir wants (without even knowing what evidence Greagoir supposedly has on Jowan), then I see it as an example to the contrary.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Knight-Commander Greagoir shoots down Warden-Commander Duncan's request for more aid for Ostagar, despite coming at King Cailan's request; Irving openly disagrees with Greagoir, but only one more mage is permitted to leave the Circle Tower, and that's because the protagonist is recruited against Greagoir's wishes through the Right of Conscription. [/quote]

So, Gregoir allows some mages to go while still keeping it in a number he is confortable with? It's almost like they're reaching an agreement both can live with rather than just have the templars obey everytime the mages whine. Shocking, I'm aware. [/quote]

Seven mages to stop the Blight is a number that Greagoir is 'comfortable' with.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Also, the Right of Conscription is only used if the Warden did not inform Irving of what Jowan was planning on doing. Should the Warden be acting on Irving's behalf, Gregoir is convinced that s/he deserves a reward for the service rendered and allows the Warden to go. [/quote]

Greagoir initially wanted him punished even if the mage protagonist was doing Irving's bidding.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Wynne is permitted to leave after getting permission, and it's pointed out that she has certain freedoms that are denied to every other Circle mage; Ines is permitted to study a plant that is rumored to grow in Blighted soil, after much of Ferelden was left barren by the Blight; [/quote]

Wynne is permitted to leave, Ines is permited to leave, Finn is permited to leave, Irving and other mages are permited to go to Redcliff, Gregoir redirects the Warden to Irving when the matter of the army comes up, Irving is the one who decides if Dagna is allowed to live in the Tower, etc. [/quote]

Wynne is permitted to leave during the Fifth Blight, and eventually gains certain privileges that other mages don't have; Ines is permitted to study a plant that is rumored to grow in Blighted soil, after the Blight has devastated the land of Ferelden; Greagoir concedes a certain amount of authority to Irving.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

even Wynne admits (in the City of Amaranthine) that she argues against the Circles of Magi breaking free from the Chantry because the Chantry would rather kill all the mages than see them free. [/quote]

As they should. Working together to reach an agreemtn both sides can live with is one thing, letting all mages everywhere be as free as mundanes is another completely different. [/quote]

A life of servitude to the Chantry isn't an example of the mages and templars "working together".

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We also know that Cole starved to death because the templars forgot he was imprisoned, and wiped away any record of his existance. [/quote]

That is entirely unrelated to the matter of mages having a voice inside the tower.
It was an accident, it happens. [/quote]

It's related to the matter of templars having authority over mages.

And covering up the death of a mage isn't an accident.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Perhaps you and I should simply agree to disagree about this matter? [/quote]

It's not a matter of personal opinion. The freedoms or lack thereofs of the Circle System are fact. We can disagree on whether the mages have enough or not, but we can't disagree in their existence.
You can't no more disagree with the fact that Chantry Law forbids the Tranquilization of Harrowed mages anymore than I can disagree with the fact that this hasn't always been respected such as in Kirkwall. [/quote]

You and I clearly have a different concept of what the Chantry controlled Circle is. You think it's something that should be supported; I think it's a horror that should be toppled.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, it's OOC because Queen Anora takes a stance you personally disagree with?[/quote]
It's like I'm talking to a wall here. I wonder if you'd have tought in IC too if Loghain suddenly decided having orlesian in Ferelden would be grand. [/quote]

That example makes no sense. Loghain has history and reason to distrust the Orleians; the same isn't true with Queen Anora and the concept of mage autonomy from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. You only disagree with Anora advocating the Magi Boon because you're pro-templar, and you personally dislike the Magi Boon as a result.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Which is why Queen Anora explicitly orders Knight-Commander Greagoir to leave the mages alone once their new Circle Tower is built in the US Ending, and he concedes to her? [/quote]

Possibly because she knew the Chantry would answer with "Have you gone mad?" and order the Templars to resume their duties. Thus, Anora could put up a good appearance while knowing that his country would be in no danger. [/quote]

In other words, you're providing your fan fic as evidence to support your argument?

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Technically, as Alistair points out, and even then he's not saying it as though he genuinely believes that's how things are in reality. We know enough to realize that the Circles of Magi are under the control of the Chantry and the Order of Templars, which is the entire premise behind the Magi Boon.

And we also know enough to realize that the templars share their power and authority with the mages.

That example doesn't contest my point at all: Irving openly admits that things would be different if it were up to him, but talks about how things are a matter of survival in the Circle. If Irving, as First Enchanter, is simply conceding to what Greagoir wants (without even knowing what evidence Greagoir supposedly has on Jowan), then I see it as an example to the contrary.

You do realize that what you are suggesting right now is for mages to be acountable to anyone. Yes, if it were up to the mages, I'm sure things would be very different but that wouldn't be much of a deal for mundanes would it.
Irving was about to not punish a blood mage. Thanks to templar oversight, a blood mage is not simply allowed to go scot free and thanks to mage oversight, the mundane who broke the laws of the Chantry will also be punished.
Fail deal, justice. That's the system working.

Seven mages to stop the Blight is a number that Greagoir is 'comfortable' with.

So? In Kirkwall, not a mage would have been sent.
He is worried mages discover how much they like throwing fireballs at things and for good reasons.

Greagoir initially wanted him punished even if the mage protagonist was doing Irving's bidding.

Which doesn't change the fact Irving's stance prevailed over Gregoir's without Grey Warden interferance.

Wynne is permitted to leave during the Fifth Blight, and eventually gains certain privileges that other mages don't have; Ines is permitted to study a plant that is rumored to grow in Blighted soil, after the Blight has devastated the land of Ferelden; Greagoir concedes a certain amount of authority to Irving.

Ah, so you admit that there are Circles beyond Kirkwall were things are much more favorable for mages? Good.

A life of servitude to the Chantry isn't an example of the mages and templars "working together".

I never realized I lived a life of servitude under my government. How dare they set up restrictions to my freedom so society can exist? I shall start a revolution imediatelly!

It's related to the matter of templars having authority over mages.

And covering up the death of a mage isn't an accident.

The police force of my country has authority over me.

Cole's family was dead and no one in the Circle even knew he was there. There was nothing to be gained by revealing his death and much to lose.

You and I clearly have a different concept of what the Chantry controlled Circle is. You think it's something that should be supported; I think it's a horror that should be toppled.

Certainly which doesn't mean I can't correct misconceptions.

That example makes no sense. Loghain has history and reason to distrust the Orleians; the same isn't true with Queen Anora and the concept of mage autonomy from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. You only disagree with Anora advocating the Magi Boon because you're pro-templar, and you personally dislike the Magi Boon as a result.

Because mages have no history of opressing mundanes and there is no reason to distrust the people who can kill you with a single tought?
Loghain opposed orlesian interferance on logical grounds. Opposing Circle autonomy is also quite logical for any mundane.
You still haven't given a single reason why an intelligent person would want uncontrollable, walking nuclear bombs in their country.

In other words, you're providing your fan fic as evidence to support your argument?

Reasonable speculation based on previously extablished character traits in order to answer this inconsistency.

[dragonflight288]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Technically, as Alistair points out, and even then he's not saying it as though he genuinely believes that's how things are in reality. We know enough to realize that the Circles of Magi are under the control of the Chantry and the Order of Templars, which is the entire premise behind the Magi Boon.[/quote]
And we also know enough to realize that the templars share their power and authority with the mages.[/quote]

That's the theory, not the practice. Gregoire may say it's the First Enchanter who has the last word after Broken Circle (I know, I just beat that quest an hour ago) but at the beginning of the mage origin, Irving has to jump through hoops to get things done. Lily won't be punished for violating her vows or helping a mage escape the circle to become an apostate unless she's caught in the act.

Gregoire is a reasonable man, but the theory simply doesn't match the practice.

[quote][quote]
That example doesn't contest my point at all: Irving openly admits that things would be different if it were up to him, but talks about how things are a matter of survival in the Circle. If Irving, as First Enchanter, is simply conceding to what Greagoir wants (without even knowing what evidence Greagoir supposedly has on Jowan), then I see it as an example to the contrary.[/quote]
You do realize that what you are suggesting right now is for mages to be acountable to anyone. Yes, if it were up to the mages, I'm sure things would be very different but that wouldn't be much of a deal for mundanes would it.
Irving was about to not punish a blood mage. Thanks to templar oversight, a blood mage is not simply allowed to go scot free and thanks to mage oversight, the mundane who broke the laws of the Chantry will also be punished.
Fail deal, justice. That's the system working.[/quote]

Again, she had to be caught in the act. If the plot was simply told to Gregoire, he would've dismissed it. But apostates, be they maleficar or not, don't even get the benefit of the doubt. Heck, even apprentice mages sometimes don't get the benefit of the doubt (Anerein)

[quote][quote]

Seven mages to stop the Blight is a number that Greagoir is 'comfortable' with.[/quote]
So? In Kirkwall, not a mage would have been sent.
He is worried mages discover how much they like throwing fireballs at things and for good reasons.[/quote]

And Cullen talks about how templars discuss killing mages with glee. They have discovered how much they like stabbing people in robes. And not every mage may throw fireballs. Those practicing the school of creation could save hundreds of soldiers lives, serving as field doctors. Some mages may practice the school of entropy and cause problems for the darkspawn. Some may practice the school of spirit, and be even more effective than templars against emissaries. Mages practing the school of spirit are actually more qualified to fight other mages than the templars, as their powers are exactly the same, but more potent and effective.

....It just occurred to me that may actually be taken as an argument for mages policing themselves, and I wasn't actually thinking of it. The point I was trying to make was that not every mage is all destruction, fireballs and 'mwahahaha, burn baby burn!'

[quote][quote]
Greagoir initially wanted him punished even if the mage protagonist was doing Irving's bidding.[/quote]
Which doesn't change the fact Irving's stance prevailed over Gregoir's without Grey Warden interferance.[/quote]

Not really. Gregoire made a deal with the Warden to aid during the Blight, and he is a man of his word. He let's things be because the Warden pretty much did his job for him.

Granted, I don't blame him because he was thinking of the lives of his men and the situation was dire.

[quote][quote]
Wynne is permitted to leave during the Fifth Blight, and eventually gains certain privileges that other mages don't have; Ines is permitted to study a plant that is rumored to grow in Blighted soil, after the Blight has devastated the land of Ferelden; Greagoir concedes a certain amount of authority to Irving.[/quote]
Ah, so you admit that there are Circles beyond Kirkwall were things are much more favorable for mages? Good.[/quote]

And some do not. It depends on the Knight-Commander. While it's true that Chantry prejudice is not as strong as Kirkwall portrays, but templar oversight is practically non-existant as well. The templar do need to be regularlarly investigated, and held accountable for their own actions. If the Knight-Commander doesn't do this, then the Chantry must replace the Knight-Commander, or crack down on the perpetrators more forcefully.

A set standard for all Circles should be established, and look at what needs improvement from there.

[quote][quote]

A life of servitude to the Chantry isn't an example of the mages and templars "working together".[/quote]
I never realized I lived a life of servitude under my government. How dare they set up restrictions to my freedom so society can exist? I shall start a revolution imediatelly![/quote]



How dare society allow corruption to fester with little to no oversight on the watchmen? We all know people never abuse their power or commit unnecessary genocide when given the power, rationale and opportunity.

[quote][quote]
It's related to the matter of templars having authority over mages.

And covering up the death of a mage isn't an accident.[/quote]
The police force of my country has authority over me.

Cole's family was dead and no one in the Circle even knew he was there. There was nothing to be gained by revealing his death and much to lose.[/quote]

And templar death squads killing non-mages in broad daylight is perfectly subtle.

[quote][quote]
You and I clearly have a different concept of what the Chantry controlled Circle is. You think it's something that should be supported; I think it's a horror that should be toppled.[/quote]
Certainly which doesn't mean I can't correct misconceptions.[/quote]

Now if only the Conclave of First Enchanters and the Knight-Commanders of the Chantry could actually agree on something that both sides can support, or at the very least compromise on either side giving up something in order to get something, then we'd be making progress.

For what it's worth, I agree with the idea, and it's fun debating with you, but we have yet to agree on something about the system that works. We have agreed on what doesn't work, but neither of us think the other's solution is optimal.

[quote][quote]
That example makes no sense. Loghain has history and reason to distrust the Orleians; the same isn't true with Queen Anora and the concept of mage autonomy from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. You only disagree with Anora advocating the Magi Boon because you're pro-templar, and you personally dislike the Magi Boon as a result.[/quote]
Because mages have no history of opressing mundanes and there is no reason to distrust the people who can kill you with a single tought?
Loghain opposed orlesian interferance on logical grounds. Opposing Circle autonomy is also quite logical for any mundane.
You still haven't given a single reason why an intelligent person would want uncontrollable, walking nuclear bombs in their country.[/quote]

The abomination codex says abominations are rare, the apostate codex says that templars go to great lengths to preach that all apostates are actually maleficar, even if they don't practice forbidden magics, merely unknown ones, and the templars have a history of oppressing not only mages, but non-mages as well. Meredith set the precedent in Kirkwall by taking political control over the city, trying to oust Aveline as Captain of the Guard so the templars could solidify power, and even controlling who becomes Viscount. Bran makes it clear that even though Hawke may have popular support, without templar support, the city would never be allowed to run itself.

The templars had death squads, they tortured a young dalish hunter to death (who falls outside their jurisdiction), and were playing politics before the Viscount's death.

Mages aren't walking nuclear bombs so much as they are walking talking persons who are constantly armed with a great deal of firepower, or are walking clinics. Abominations are walking nuclear bombs.

As for a reason? How about they make the best healers, they are the perfect solution to balance the cannon-fire from Qunari technology, they make perfect support troops or artillery units in times of war, they can offer enchantment services, and help repair the Fade in areas where it's weakened or torn due to excessive violence (Brecilian Forest, Denerim's alienage orphange)

[quote][quote]
In other words, you're providing your fan fic as evidence to support your argument?
[/quote]
Reasonable speculation based on previously extablished character traits in order to answer this inconsistency.

[/quote][/quote]

And by that very same argument, despite evidence to the contrary, someone can say that all templars can be tempted by demons who get through the veil-thin circles, get possessed or enthralled themselves, and become just as dangerous as an abomination. Or every templar will abuse their power over mages, whether through rape, beatings, illegal tranquilizations, or political maneuverings, and oppress all people, not just mages.

Making that kind of argument usually has very strong and memorable precedents which would be very traumatizing to survivors, but also ignores all evidence of it not being the case.

I'm going to quote Morrigan, and I think what she said applies here, even though I was asking if abominations are usually insane horrors.

Morrigan: How often is this usually? Is it always? If not always, then when is it not so?

We know that most templars are not Alrik's, Meredith's, Kerrass's or the like, and we also know that not every mage is an Uldred, Grace, and most don't even share the same morals as Tevinters having been raised outside of the Imperium under a completely different religion and culture.

Following Morrigan's line of questions, we therefore know that in most cases, Templars and Mages are only as dangerous as they are pushed to be, whether by religious and cultural beliefs growing up or by desperation. Most would just live their lives without hurting anyone if given the chance.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

He is worried mages discover how much they like throwing fireballs at things and for good reasons.

Which is some poor logic when you understand that there are Templars who talk about being giddy over killing Mages.

Besides, even in the horde there are dozens upon dozens of Darkspawn mages. Seven Mages in the ranks of the army is not enough when you should be fighting fire with fire.

What's worse? An Abomination or power-hungry Mage razing a village to the ground but which can otherwise recover in years? Or Darkspawn spreading across the land and destroying it utterly in the process -- to the point that if you're lucky, decades will heal the land -- because the Chantry decided Mages weren't to be able to use something that's deemed a gift as well as a curse?

And as you find out, the Mages and Templars in the Circle believed it to be a Blight. The talks of the Blight served to unify the Mages of the different fraternities, while Gregoir never once questions the Blight's veracity.

MisterJB wrote...

Because mages have no history of opressing mundanes and there is no reason to distrust the people who can kill you with a single tought?

1) One nation whose culture bred that mindset for as long as it existed. ONE. The other nations actively teach the Mages otherwise. 

2) They're not going to take over the system overnight.

3) The Templars would still have existed. Anora was granting the Circle independence from the Chantry, not an elmination of the Templars.

4) "With a single thought" is hyperbole. They have to actually enunciate a spell's words properly, control the emotions they hold, and many other things so they can perform a spell.

MisterJB wrote...

As they should. Working together to reach an agreemtn both sides can live with is one thing, letting all mages everywhere be as free as mundanes is another completely different.

In my view, the Mages need to aim high -- complete independence and a separation from the Chantry -- in order for the Chantry to be willing to listen and compromise enough. Hopefully, that's the same mindset the Mages are operating under. Aim high and possibly at an impossible goal so you can grab the real victory.

LobselVith8 wrote...

without even knowing what evidence Greagoir supposedly has on Jowan

Irving and Gregoir had a "witness" supporting Jowan's practice of blood magic, who was most likely Uldred given how Uldred would teach certain Mages blood magic and rat out some of them so he could raise his own standing in the Circle and hide his own status as a maleficar.

MisterJB wrote...

In Kirkwall, not a mage would have been sent.

Arguable. If we're talking about during Meredith's psycho-dictatorship of the city, then yes no Mages would've been sent. If we're talking about before, then it's possible that there would have been some sent out after some incredibly vocal arguments between Orsino and Meredith -- since Orsino has to remind Meredith that despite not hailing from Kirkwall, he'll fight for his home using his magic against the Qunari.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 janvier 2013 - 07:39 .

[TEWR]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

But there are already mages wanting to restore all Tranquils.
I wish Evangeline would have just killed Wynne, Rhys, Adrian, Shale and Pharamond.[/quote]

Eh, I don't think Evangeline could've killed Shale.

Rhys can probably pull enough sway over the Mages to not be "ALL TRANQUIL SHOULD BE FREED FROM THEIR BONDS!!!" provided Adrian doesn't muck it up.

For some reason, if the Chantry is in negotiations with the Mages and Templars during DA3's beginning, something tells me Adrian will play a part in ****ing it up by releasing Demons.



[quote]
Templars like Alrik are acting on their own urges, not because of the Maker. I could accept that someone tough Tranquilizing all mages wouold be the best solution so as to remove their danger but turning them into sex toys has nothing to do with Andrastianism.[/quote]

As Cullen tells us, the Chantry teaches its Templars that they have dominion over Mages by divine right.

And the Templars are recruited for their religious zealotry first and foremost, while moral fiber is considered secondary.

So... Alrik was a fanatical Andrastian.

[quote]
That Thrask was unwilling to work with him speaks volumes. Not that Thrask is the best judge of character, mind you. Grace, anyone?[/quote]

I refuse to acknowledge anything in that quest from a pro-mage side as making a damn lick of sense and even worth my time. Thrask is the person that thinks Hawke, the man who openly supports Orsino (which Thrask will even acknowledge!), is working for Meredith.

It's as if everyone in Kirkwall is brain dead.

[quote]

But it's definitively not the first time he used blood magic.[/quote]

And why would you think that? The Harvester ritual is very intricate and requires a great deal of knowledge on what to do, and Quentin sent Orsino detailed notes on the topic -- which showed Orsino how deranged the man was.

How would Orsino even get to practice it when the Circle is on lockdown 24/7 and his office is directly across from Meredith's?

No, there's absolutely nothing to indicate that Orsino was anything other then an academic blood mage like Adralla until the endgame occurred.

Personally, I choose to believe Orsino had an eidetic memory that helped him ascend to the rank of First Enchanter and has helped him with his magecraft for all his years, but when Orsino sent him those notes it was the one time in his life he wished he could forget something.

You choose to believe he was a practicing blood mage when there's no evidence of that. I choose to believe he had an eidetic memory, when there's no evidence of that.

[quote]If he lies about that, what else did he lie about?[/quote]

Just because you think he's lying, doesn't mean he's lying. 



[quote]

We know Orsino is a blood mage,[/quote]

An academic blood mage.


[quote]we know his best friend is a blood mage and we know that he was hiding blood mages in the Circle or he wouldn't have opposed Meredith's search so strongly.[/quote]

or there weren't any blood mages left, considering Hawke did clean-up on the blood mages. And Meredith didn't even have any proof other then paranoia. If she had shown concrete proof like a letter from a Mage talking about blood magic, then sure... maybe.

But what proof do you have that those Mages that used blood magic in the endgame didn't do so because of how desperate they had become from a call for purging that was unjustified? Fenris himself notes that Hawke will see many mages turning to blood magic for the first time simply to survive.


[quote]Those blood mages in the tower were summoning Pride Demons, those are right below the Old Gods in the soil-your-pants-meter and summoning and controlling them are not things a first timer blood mage can accomplish, they had to have been studying it for some time. Orsino knew and helped them hid.[/quote]

Asserting belief as fact does you no credit. And the Veil in Kirkwall is paper thin. Demons cross of their own volition routinely. When you find the blood mage on the docks, the Pride Demon was already there. And Pride Demons can summon demons themselves.

Unless there's solid proof that it was the blood mage summoning the Pride Demon, I'm not buying it simply because of circumstantial evidence.


[quote]Meredith's shortcomings do not justify Orsino's.[/quote]

Orsino will say to an aggressive Hawke that he would and will go to the Templars on the blood mages when he has information on just who is involved, so that not every Mage will be persecuted. 

He is not opposed to working with Templars. But he's living in a world where he can't go to them for assistance without other Mages suffering, made worse by how Meredith has put him under lockdown such that he can't even investigate his own Circle without being accused of corruption.

[quote
C'mon, you placed emphasis on his condition as a descendent of elves.[/quote]

Because that's part of his heritage. He has Elven blood in his veins, was raised by an Elven woman, and either way studies under an Elven mage.

I am simply acknowledging that he was taught views on magic and history that will be different from how Tevinter teaches their mages. 

If Feynriel had, at any point, showed such a disdain for humans that Velanna initially had then I'd agree there's a good chance he may become an oppressor of humans -- which would be ironic, considering he is one.

But he hasn't. 


[quote]The Magisters would say they serve the greater good.[/quote]

Saying it and doing it are two different concepts. The Dalish actually follow it.

[quote]The Dalish are just as mage supremacist as Tevinter.[/quote]

Not really. The Keepers do not have absolute authority over the clans, as even the word of a Hahren carries a great deal of influence that the Keepers will listen to -- due to their reverence of their elders based on what they know of Arlathan.

And in their culture, the stories say that every Elf was once a Mage but that the gift was lost over the ages. And they view all Elves in the clans as equals. The Mages are simply the guides -- which makes sense, considering the Dales was ruled by Mages and didn't fall into Tevinter mode or Abomination Nation. And the Keepers descend from them.

[quote]
True but the souls of all humans are made of the same mold. We can be tempted by the same things, even if they manifest in different ways.

I'm sure Feynriel will soon learn that making people obey you is a lot mroe fun than helping them.[/quote]

And if you're proven wrong?

[quote]
What I am certain of is that power corrupts; that Tevinter corrupts; and that no 
one take the moral high ground when there is a much easier path to
travel, in this case, blood magic.[/quote]

But Tevinter doesn't corrupt everyone. There was an archon who outlawed slavery -- where he was assassinated, sadly. There are Magisters in the low end of the Senate that actually refrain from using blood magic.

[quote]
It's not paranoia. It's a fundamented fear based on years of observed human behavior.[/quote]

Ignoring all other factors at play here.

[quote]

What? Magic? What?[/quote]

I'll try to find the quote.

[quote] 
I was speaking of elves in general. There are many elves Vellana who would like nothing best than to kill humans.
[/quote]

Actually, many Elves don't act like Velanna. The ones that do are fringe elements among the Dalish. Brother Genitivi learned this from his firsthand upside-down dealings with a Dalish Elf.

Velanna can grow past that mindset. And bear in mind that at the time, her sister was missing. She's not going to think clearly at that moment.

That said, her lack of remorse for killing people innocent of that crime doesn't paint her in a favorable light. But like I said, she can grow past that.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

without even knowing what evidence Greagoir supposedly has on Jowan

Irving and Gregoir had a "witness" supporting Jowan's practice of blood magic, who was most likely Uldred given how Uldred would teach certain Mages blood magic and rat out some of them so he could raise his own standing in the Circle and hide his own status as a maleficar. 

I think that could be the case (especially given the letter "Irving's Mistake"), although the way Irving explained it to the mage protagonist, he didn't seem to actually know what evidence Greagoir had on Jowan, which is the issue. If Irving signed the Rite of Tranquility because Greagoir wanted it so, but he didn't actually know what evidence Greagoir had to support this course of action, then I see it as a serious problem.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For some reason, if the Chantry is in negotiations with the Mages and Templars during DA3's beginning, something tells me Adrian will play a part in ****ing it up by releasing Demons.

I sincerely have no interest in seeing the restoration of the status quo, so if Adrian opposes any capitulation to the Chantry and the templars, I wouldn't blame her.

[dragonflight288]

We do know the status quo is a massive failure. The system doesn't work. The only thing that would work is giving mages a bit more autonomy and the templars/chantry less control over mages. That doesn't mean completely free without regulations or whatever for mages. It doesn't mean the templars become invalid, but anything in the templar directions will lead to either genocide again, or all of Thedas being conquered by either the Tevinter again or the Qunari.

[TEWR]

I sincerely have no interest in seeing the restoration of the status quo, so if Adrian opposes any capitulation to the Chantry and the templars, I wouldn't blame her.

That depends on how one defines status quo. I don't think going back to how the Circles operated as of the Dragon Age is the answer, but I do think negotiating with the Divine for small yet crucial victories is the best course of action.

MisterJB wrote...

What? Magic? What?

Here ya go:

David Gaider wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...
I will give bioware a pass on not understanding that recessive traits can never be removed between a pairing, they may be rare, but they are not gone and have a tendency to show up in later generations, sometimes in the first children.

That's appreciated-- though you might also want to include in that understanding the fact that this has much more to do with magic and almost nothing to do with genetics.

David Gaider wrote...

The child of elf-blooded humans and an elf is another elf-blooded human. Whether or not such a line would eventually become more "elven" is unknown -- the elf-blooded don't tend to distinguish themselves as a group for cultural reasons, and more often then not find themselves living amongst humans rather than elves. Saying that elves have recessive genes obviously isn't the answer -- I said a long time ago on the forums that elven genetics were "adaptive", but that's just an attempt to explain the phenomenon since people were insisting on talking about genetics. The elves don't know why it happens, and there's no understanding of genetics in the world to explain it... if that would even be the reason. More likely it has a supernatural origin relating to the nature of the elves themselves, though what that might be and whether or not the elves were truly once the immortals they claim simply isn't known.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 janvier 2013 - 10:59 .

[MisterJB]

So, it's basically the same thing that happened with Mr.Martin. When someone pointed out genetics and the distinguishing characteristics of the Great Houses of Westeros, his answer was "Magic".