523 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
That's the theory, not the practice. Gregoire may say it's the First Enchanter who has the last word after Broken Circle (I know, I just beat that quest an hour ago) but at the beginning of the mage origin, Irving has to jump through hoops to get things done. Lily won't be punished for violating her vows or helping a mage escape the circle to become an apostate unless she's caught in the act.

Gregoire is a reasonable man, but the theory simply doesn't match the practice.

We've seen three Circles. Ferelden where the practice works just fine. Kirkwall which was basically sitting on top of an Hellmouth and was a nightmare. And the White Spire in Orlais where thing seemed to work just fine under the previous KC and, even after the stricter Lambert was put in place, mages were still able to get their way through protests.
The image of the chained apprentice is powerful but that's just propaganda.

Again, she had to be caught in the act. If the plot was simply told to Gregoire, he would've dismissed it. But apostates, be they maleficar or not, don't even get the benefit of the doubt. Heck, even apprentice mages sometimes don't get the benefit of the doubt (Anerein)

And Gregoir had to collect evidence that Jowan was a blood mage before he could actually punish him.
The way apostates are treated varies frorm templar to templar. Anders was brougth back seven times while Aneirin was run through on the first.
Maybe the templar sent after him was just stricter or maybe Aneirin used blood magic. Who knows?

And Cullen talks about how templars discuss killing mages with glee. They have discovered how much they like stabbing people in robes.

Some will, certainly. It's inevitable that corruption exists in any system.

And not every mage may throw fireballs. Those practicing the school of creation could save hundreds of soldiers lives, serving as field doctors. Some mages may practice the school of entropy and cause problems for the darkspawn. Some may practice the school of spirit, and be even more effective than templars against emissaries. Mages practing the school of spirit are actually more qualified to fight other mages than the templars, as their powers are exactly the same, but more potent and effective.

....It just occurred to me that may actually be taken as an argument for mages policing themselves, and I wasn't actually thinking of it. The point I was trying to make was that not every mage is all destruction, fireballs and 'mwahahaha, burn baby burn!'

The Primal School is not the only capable of causing harm. Even the Spirit School grants the mage the ability to tap someone on the head and have them explode from the inside out.
The point is that the Circle exists to control magic, to disencourage mages from using it to harm others. Telling them to go nuts with their destructive spells is the exact opposite of this.

Not really. Gregoire made a deal with the Warden to aid during the Blight, and he is a man of his word. He let's things be because the Warden pretty much did his job for him.

Granted, I don't blame him because he was thinking of the lives of his men and the situation was dire.

I was referring to the Warden being recruited by Duncan. Should the Magi Warder inform Irving of Jowan's plan, Irving and Duncan convince Gregoir that he deserves to be reward. Thus, we see a FE having his will be respected over that of the KC.

And some do not. It depends on the Knight-Commander. While it's true that Chantry prejudice is not as strong as Kirkwall portrays, but templar oversight is practically non-existant as well. The templar do need to be regularlarly investigated, and held accountable for their own actions. If the Knight-Commander doesn't do this, then the Chantry must replace the Knight-Commander, or crack down on the perpetrators more forcefully.

A set standard for all Circles should be established, and look at what needs improvement from there.

We do see the Seekers policing the Templars in "Dawn of the Seeker" but yes, templars also need to be held acountable for their actions.

And templar death squads killing non-mages in broad daylight is perfectly subtle.

We all know Meredith went beyond the call of duty. There were templars such as Ser Agatha who opposed the killings of the families of mages and it's not like there weren't many mages killing innocents as well.

Now if only the Conclave of First Enchanters and the Knight-Commanders of the Chantry could actually agree on something that both sides can support, or at the very least compromise on either side giving up something in order to get something, then we'd be making progress.

For what it's worth, I agree with the idea, and it's fun debating with you, but we have yet to agree on something about the system that works. We have agreed on what doesn't work, but neither of us think the other's solution is optimal.

We can't even reach an agreement and we never had to actually feel any of these problems in the flesh.

As for a reason? How about they make the best healers, they are the perfect solution to balance the cannon-fire from Qunari technology, they make perfect support troops or artillery units in times of war, they can offer enchantment services, and help repair the Fade in areas where it's weakened or torn due to excessive violence (Brecilian Forest, Denerim's alienage orphange)

All services that can be provided from inside the Circle and/or with templar supervision which would decrease the danger they represent. You're not giving me any reason why they should be free.

And by that very same argument, despite evidence to the contrary, someone can say that all templars can be tempted by demons who get through the veil-thin circles, get possessed or enthralled themselves, and become just as dangerous as an abomination. Or every templar will abuse their power over mages, whether through rape, beatings, illegal tranquilizations, or political maneuverings, and oppress all people, not just mages.

Making that kind of argument usually has very strong and memorable precedents which would be very traumatizing to survivors, but also ignores all evidence of it not being the case.

I'm going to quote Morrigan, and I think what she said applies here, even though I was asking if abominations are usually insane horrors.

Morrigan: How often is this usually? Is it always? If not always, then when is it not so?

We know that most templars are not Alrik's, Meredith's, Kerrass's or the like, and we also know that not every mage is an Uldred, Grace, and most don't even share the same morals as Tevinters having been raised outside of the Imperium under a completely different religion and culture.

Following Morrigan's line of questions, we therefore know that in most cases, Templars and Mages are only as dangerous as they are pushed to be, whether by religious and cultural beliefs growing up or by desperation. Most would just live their lives without hurting anyone if given the chance.

Did it take all mages in the world to build Tevinter? To start the Bligths? Did it took all mages in the Circle for it to fall to demons? How many mages were involved in the destruction of Redcliff or Kirkwall's Chantry?
And for that matter, did it take all of Kirkwall's templars for it to become a police state? Or simply the wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[dragonflight288]

We've seen three Circles. Ferelden where the practice works just fine. Kirkwall which was basically sitting on top of an Hellmouth and was a nightmare. And the White Spire in Orlais where thing seemed to work just fine under the previous KC and, even after the stricter Lambert was put in place, mages were still able to get their way through protests.
The image of the chained apprentice is powerful but that's just propaganda.

I never once said chained apprentices (although I'm sure there were plenty in Kirkwall as the Circle was housed in a prison.) The point I was making was that the practice doesn't match the theory on templar supervision and mage autonomy.

And Gregoir had to collect evidence that Jowan was a blood mage before he could actually punish him.
The way apostates are treated varies frorm templar to templar. Anders was brougth back seven times while Aneirin was run through on the first.
Maybe the templar sent after him was just stricter or maybe Aneirin used blood magic. Who knows?

Although we know in the end that Jowan was a blood mage, we don't actually know what Gregoire's evidence consisted of. Irving didn't even know, and he had to sign and authorize the right. We know Gregoire said he had an eye-witness, but that would simply put it Jowan's word vs another's. We need something more concrete, and Irving didn't know what it was, or at the very least, we never find out.

As for Aneirin, I suppose the templar may or may not have been prejudiced against elves for all we know, but you just proved a point for me. Templars don't treat mages equally, and often quite brutally. We know that apostates who never grew up in a circle usually don't ever get trials or prisons. Mages don't get those either. To the Chantry and the Templar order as a whole, there are only absolutes.

The apostate codex does say that the templars and the chantry go to great lengths to blur the line between maleficar and apostate, so the common man thinks they are one and the same.

Some will, certainly. It's inevitable that corruption exists in any system.

cut.......We do see the Seekers policing the Templars in "Dawn of the Seeker" but yes, templars also need to be held acountable for their actions.

We both know that no system is perfect, but the current one, even though it has Seekers, offers next to no oversight on templars. The seekers should investigate templars only. If a templar fails in his/her duties, the Seeker has every right to take over, but only long enough to replace bad templars.

This may seem off subject, but let me ask you what you would do to enforce templars following their own rules. How would you reorganize the circle?

The Primal School is not the only capable of causing harm. Even the Spirit School grants the mage the ability to tap someone on the head and have them explode from the inside out.
The point is that the Circle exists to control magic, to disencourage mages from using it to harm others. Telling them to go nuts with their destructive spells is the exact opposite of this.

Not true at all. The point of the Circle, according to the original compromise, was to give the mages a place where they could practice magic freely, study it, and be away from the common man so their experiments wouldn't harm others. The templars were to watch and advice, and ultimately deal with abominations and blood mages as they popped up.

It's a far cry from what it was originally supposed to be.

I was referring to the Warden being recruited by Duncan. Should the Magi Warder inform Irving of Jowan's plan, Irving and Duncan convince Gregoir that he deserves to be reward. Thus, we see a FE having his will be respected over that of the KC.

Gregoire was pushing for the mage warden to be punished, investigated, and possibly sent to Aeonar, even if the mage was working under Irving's orders. Gregoire outright states that he doesn't trust the mage warden when Duncan conscripts him/her.

Gregoire doesn't once agree with rewarding the mage, but he legally can't do anything because the Wardens have the authority to conscript anyone they so choose.

We all know Meredith went beyond the call of duty. There were templars such as Ser Agatha who opposed the killings of the families of mages and it's not like there weren't many mages killing innocents as well.

It's true we do know that, but the Chantry didn't do anything to curtail her overreach of power. Elthina (keeping to the point of the thread) had more than enough authority to remove Meredith and replace her with Cullen. All Elthina did was chastise her like a child and pray the situation would blow over without her help.

The whole situation could have been prevented if the Chantry investigated Meredith and took her out of there. Thrask was in the right trying to depose her, even if methods were stupid, idiotic, and from the pro-mage playthrough, makes absolutely no sense at all.

We can't even reach an agreement and we never had to actually feel any of these problems in the flesh.

I guess that's why we're friends as we both care about a fictional world in a game we both enjoy enough to give each other a hard time over it.

All services that can be provided from inside the Circle and/or with templar supervision which would decrease the danger they represent. You're not giving me any reason why they should be free.

I gave you a list of reasons why people would want mages around, which was the question you asked, or I may have misinterpreted what you actually said. As for mages being free? When have I ever said they ought be removed from Circles and given total independence and autonomy? I never have. I have argued for more checks-and-balances on the templars so they don't have so much power over mages. I have argued allowing mages the right to marry without special permission and the ability to have children without them being taken away as Chantry property. I have argued allowing mages the right to go outside as apprentices or go on supervised visits to market squares and allowing them to see their families.

Did it take all mages in the world to build Tevinter? To start the Bligths? Did it took all mages in the Circle for it to fall to demons? How many mages were involved in the destruction of Redcliff or Kirkwall's Chantry?
And for that matter, did it take all of Kirkwall's templars for it to become a police state? Or simply the wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Was it the mages who started the blights? That's chantry lore, and even then it's questioned. We do know that the magisters who entered the Black City (it was already black when they got there) became awakened darkspawn. We know through the Architect in Awakening that they don't hear the call of the Old Gods at all. It's completely silent to them (which is what drove the Mother crazy.) They wouldn't be digging to unleash Old Gods because they wouldn't know where to go, and wouldn't hear the song.

A few bad apples may spoil the bunch, but the way I see it, we shouldn't let preconceived notions cloud our theories and judgements. It is mistake to form theories before we have facts as inevitably we'll try twisting facts to match our theories rather than change our theories to match the facts.

Most of the lore we have suggests that templars and the Chantry abusing power is more common than abominations, and just as deadly. Should Inquisition come out and show us something new, then we'll have to adapt our theories.

[MisterJB]

Let me start by saying that since you and DragonFlight quoted much of the same post, I hope you'll forgive me not for responding to the same quote if I feel I have already adequatelly done so in my previous post.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
1) One nation whose culture bred that mindset for as long as it existed. ONE. The other nations actively teach the Mages otherwise. 

Human society is competitive by nature.
Sure, we can control our more primal urges so as to function in society but we still look out for number one and we still bend the rules as much as our fear of reprisal allows us to do.
You can't teach free mages to abstain from using their powers to rise themselves above mundanes. It's impossible for these lessons to endure.

2) They're not going to take over the system overnight.

it's still going to happen. In a world where some people are capable of conjuring things out of nothing, how do you prevent those who can't from becoming second class citizens?

3) The Templars would still have existed. Anora was granting the Circle independence from the Chantry, not an elmination of the Templars.

And if there handn't been templars there to close the doors when Uldred was possessed, a veritable army of abominations, demons and blood mages would have poured into Ferelden. How many innocents would have died then?

4) "With a single thought" is hyperbole. They have to actually enunciate a spell's words properly, control the emotions they hold, and many other things so they can perform a spell.

The...apostitute (I have a bad memory for names) was able to force Hawke to bring a blade to his throat without any obvious sing of enchantment. A lesser willed person would ahve died there.

In my view, the Mages need to aim high -- complete independence and a separation from the Chantry -- in order for the Chantry to be willing to listen and compromise enough. Hopefully, that's the same mindset the Mages are operating under. Aim high and possibly at an impossible goal so you can grab the real victory.

True enough but I still can't support this rebellion.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

All Elthina did was chastise her like a child and pray the situation would blow over without her help.

I lol'd at the italicized, considering it did just that.

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

All Elthina did was chastise her like a child and pray the situation would blow over without her help.

I lol'd at the italicized, considering it did just that.

It did indeed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Although we know in the end that Jowan was a blood mage, we don't actually know what Gregoire's evidence consisted of. Irving didn't even know, and he had to sign and authorize the right. We know Gregoire said he had an eye-witness, but that would simply put it Jowan's word vs another's. We need something more concrete, and Irving didn't know what it was, or at the very least, we never find out.

No.
Irwing sez he hasn't sen the evidence yet.
We see he signed the autorization LATER, so your claim that Irwing was forced to sign without seeing the evidence is false.

As for Aneirin, I suppose the templar may or may not have been prejudiced against elves for all we know, but you just proved a point for me. Templars don't treat mages equally, and often quite brutally. We know that apostates who never grew up in a circle usually don't ever get trials or prisons. Mages don't get those either. To the Chantry and the Templar order as a whole, there are only absolutes.

People don't treat people equally.

We don't know exactly what happened or why the templars run Aerin trough.

The apostate codex does say that the templars and the chantry go to great lengths to blur the line between maleficar and apostate, so the common man thinks they are one and the same.

Given that apostates refuse to follow the restrictio nand given that they endanger everoyne by their mere existence.... no wonder.

It's true we do know that, but the Chantry didn't do anything to curtail her overreach of power. Elthina (keeping to the point of the thread) had more than enough authority to remove Meredith and replace her with Cullen. All Elthina did was chastise her like a child and pray the situation would blow over without her help.

General after the battle much?
It's easy to blame her as if you except her to know everything you do and the future events too.

Let me remind you that Meredith was strict, but pretty normal untill late game.

Most of the lore we have suggests that templars and the Chantry abusing power is more common than abominations, and just as deadly. Should Inquisition come out and show us something new, then we'll have to adapt our theories.

It does nothing of the sort.

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Eh, I don't think Evangeline could've killed Shale.[/quote]
No but Lambert sent a larger group of templars in case she needed the help.

[quote]
Rhys can probably pull enough sway over the Mages to not be "ALL TRANQUIL SHOULD BE FREED FROM THEIR BONDS!!!" provided Adrian doesn't muck it up.

For some reason, if the Chantry is in negotiations with the Mages and Templars during DA3's beginning, something tells me Adrian will play a part in ****ing it up by releasing Demons.[/quote]
Short sigthed, narrow minded terrorist attack uncaring for who dies so long as the perpretator gets what she wishes? Yeah, that definitively sounds like Adrian.
Hopefully, she joins Tevinter and their giant scorpions. Any excuse to kill her. Or make her Tranquil. If someone had it coming, she did.

[quote]
As Cullen tells us, the Chantry teaches its Templars that they have dominion over Mages by divine right.

And the Templars are recruited for their religious zealotry first and foremost, while moral fiber is considered secondary.

So... Alrik was a fanatical Andrastian.[/quote]
Cullen may have just stated his opinion since it's not something we heard repeated by other templars.
Religious belief and an ability to follow order does not equal raping mages. Nowhere in the Chant or in the sermons we can read in the Codex is that even suggested. Alrik was a sadistic bastard who hid behind a religious due to the power it gave him.

[quote]
I refuse to acknowledge anything in that quest from a pro-mage side as making a damn lick of sense and even worth my time. Thrask is the person that thinks Hawke, the man who openly supports Orsino (which Thrask will even acknowledge!), is working for Meredith.

It's as if everyone in Kirkwall is brain dead.[/quote]
Hawke had just finished hunting three apostates for Meredith. It's not like Thrask would have had insight about why he did so or just how dangerous two of those mages were.

[quote]
And why would you think that? The Harvester ritual is very intricate and requires a great deal of knowledge on what to do, and Quentin sent Orsino detailed notes on the topic -- which showed Orsino how deranged the man was.

How would Orsino even get to practice it when the Circle is on lockdown 24/7 and his office is directly across from Meredith's?

No, there's absolutely nothing to indicate that Orsino was anything other then an academic blood mage like Adralla until the endgame occurred.

Personally, I choose to believe Orsino had an eidetic memory that helped him ascend to the rank of First Enchanter and has helped him with his magecraft for all his years, but when Orsino sent him those notes it was the one time in his life he wished he could forget something.

You choose to believe he was a practicing blood mage when there's no evidence of that. I choose to believe he had an eidetic memory, when there's no evidence of that.[/quote]
Exactly because of what you said. Becoming an Harvester should be something that requires detailed studying, years of practice. If I see someone performing an extremely complicated ritual, should I assume that this person saw its proceedings once and it's just that intelligent or remarkable or actually that he had some experience in that particular field of study? Tell me honestly, what is more likely?

It's not like mages or templars can be watched by those loyal to Meredith 24/7 or they wouldn't have managed to set the fire to destroy the pylacteries.

[quote]

An academic blood mage.[/quote]
Practicioner.

[quote]
or there weren't any blood mages left, considering Hawke did clean-up on the blood mages. And Meredith didn't even have any proof other then paranoia. If she had shown concrete proof like a letter from a Mage talking about blood magic, then sure... maybe.[/quote]
Hawke had just discovered a group of Circle Mages practicing forbidden magic. Meredith has every reason to suspect there were others inside the Circle.
It's just a search. What harm could there have been in allowing Meredith to perform her duty unless Orsino knew that there were things in the Circle that shouldn't have been there?

[quote]
But what proof do you have that those Mages that used blood magic in the endgame didn't do so because of how desperate they had become from a call for purging that was unjustified? Fenris himself notes that Hawke will see many mages turning to blood magic for the first time simply to survive.[/quote]
The Pride Demons. In Broken Circle, the situation was much worse and yet, there was only one Pride Demon in there. Uldred himself who we know had been practicing blood magic for years. Pride Demons are not things a first time blood mage can summon, much less control.

[quote]
Asserting belief as fact does you no credit. And the Veil in Kirkwall is paper thin. Demons cross of their own volition routinely. When you find the blood mage on the docks, the Pride Demon was already there. And Pride Demons can summon demons themselves.[/quote]
If Pride Demons could have simply crossed the Veil on their own, the city would have been razed to the ground years ago. That blood mage on thr Docks was clearly someone who tried to summon a Pride, lost control and became an Abomination.

[quote]

Orsino will say to an aggressive Hawke that he would and will go to the Templars on the blood mages when he has information on just who is involved, so that not every Mage will be persecuted. [/quote]
He is lying. Years before had been concealing thw whereabouts of a blood mages and now he is willing to help? I don't buy it.

[quote]
He is not opposed to working with Templars. But he's living in a world where he can't go to them for assistance without other Mages suffering,[/quote]
So he is just assuming the worst about templars? Much like he asks people not to assume about mages?
Maybe if he had been more cooperative with Meredith, things wouldn't have deteriorated so much.
You say that he is willing to work with Templars but I see no evidence of that other than his own words and there are a lot of incosistencies that lead me to believe he is lying.

[quote
Because that's part of his heritage. He has Elven blood in his veins, was raised by an Elven woman, and either way studies under an Elven mage.[/quote]
None of which makes his more or less likely to be corrupted.

[quote]
Saying it and doing it are two different concepts. The Dalish actually follow it.[/quote]
Like Zathrian putting his revenge above the clan? Or Marethary doing the same with Merril?

[quote]
Not really. The Keepers do not have absolute authority over the clans, as even the word of a Hahren carries a great deal of influence that the Keepers will listen to -- due to their reverence of their elders based on what they know of Arlathan.[/quote]
Marethari forced her clan to become in the place so long that a few elves were forced to leave.
Do elves have a way to override the orders of a Keeper if they are obviously harmful to the clan other than basically pack your stuff and leave? If not, then the Keepers have absolute authority.

[quote]
And in their culture, the stories say that every Elf was once a Mage but that the gift was lost over the ages. And they view all Elves in the clans as equals. The Mages are simply the guides -- which makes sense, considering the Dales was ruled by Mages and didn't fall into Tevinter mode or Abomination Nation. And the Keepers descend from them.[/quote]
Fairy tales are no basis for a system of governance. just ask Dennis the Constitutioal Peasant.
Regardless, even if that was true, there are mundane elves now and they deserve to have the same opportunity to shape the destinies of the clan.


[quote]
And if you're proven wrong?[/quote]
I'll simply claim that Bioware is writing him unrealistically and that in real life, no one would resist the corruption of power. I'll believe it too.

C'mon, he is a teenager who speads his time floating through the Fade looking for wrongs to right? C'mon!

[quote]
But Tevinter doesn't corrupt everyone. There was an archon who outlawed slavery -- where he was assassinated, sadly. There are Magisters in the low end of the Senate that actually refrain from using blood magic.[/quote]
Well, it doesn't take every mage for Tevinter to be what it is.

[quote]
Actually, many Elves don't act like Velanna. The ones that do are fringe elements among the Dalish. Brother Genitivi learned this from his firsthand upside-down dealings with a Dalish Elf.[/quote]
That fact that many may not act like Vellana doesn't change the fact that many do. Most of Vellana's clan appeared to be quite decent people, sure. But every single elf in Merril's clain was hostile towards humans in a way or other.

[quote]
Velanna can grow past that mindset. And bear in mind that at the time, her sister was missing. She's not going to think clearly at that moment.

That said, her lack of remorse for killing people innocent of that crime doesn't paint her in a favorable light. But like I said, she can grow past that.
[/quote]
True.

[MisterJB]

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
I never once said chained apprentices (although I'm sure there were plenty in Kirkwall as the Circle was housed in a prison.) The point I was making was that the practice doesn't match the theory on templar supervision and mage autonomy. [/quote]
And I gave you the example of two out of three towers where the practice follows the theory not perfectly but closely.

[quote]
Although we know in the end that Jowan was a blood mage, we don't actually know what Gregoire's evidence consisted of. Irving didn't even know, and he had to sign and authorize the right. We know Gregoire said he had an eye-witness, but that would simply put it Jowan's word vs another's. We need something more concrete, and Irving didn't know what it was, or at the very least, we never find out.[/quote]
Irving clearly trusted Gregoir hence why he felt comfortable authorizing the Rite. In Kirkwall where the FE and KC are at each other's throat 100% of the time, Meredith couldn't even conduct a search.
Bottom line, no self respecting FE is just going to authorize a Rite without good reasons.

[quote]
As for Aneirin, I suppose the templar may or may not have been prejudiced against elves for all we know, but you just proved a point for me. Templars don't treat mages equally, and often quite brutally. We know that apostates who never grew up in a circle usually don't ever get trials or prisons. Mages don't get those either. To the Chantry and the Templar order as a whole, there are only absolutes.
[/quote]
There are not just absolutes with the Order. Anders escaped and was brougth back seven times while Aneirin was run through on the first. Meredith executed some Starkahven apostates who surrended while Bethany who had been an Apostate her entire life was allowed to go through the Harrowing and join the Circle. Some mages are given more freedoms, others less. As with all things, the treatment of mages vary depending on many factors.
It's quite possible Aneirin used Blood Magic which is not always a death sentence, btw. EAain.

Actually, if you think about it, Orsino was definitively harboring blood mages. Alain if no one else.

[quote]
The apostate codex does say that the templars and the chantry go to great lengths to blur the line between maleficar and apostate, so the common man thinks they are one and the same. [/quote]
Mages are dangerous. Apostates even more so because they will do anything to escape justice. If it keeps people away from the mages, I don't see what's the problem.

[quote]
We both know that no system is perfect, but the current one, even though it has Seekers, offers next to no oversight on templars. The seekers should investigate templars only. If a templar fails in his/her duties, the Seeker has every right to take over, but only long enough to replace bad templars.

This may seem off subject, but let me ask you what you would do to enforce templars following their own rules. How would you reorganize the circle?[/quote]
Who watches the watchmen? I have no idea. The current system, in theory, is close to ideal. But, as we know, it doesn't always work.

[quote]
Not true at all. The point of the Circle, according to the original compromise, was to give the mages a place where they could practice magic freely, study it, and be away from the common man so their experiments wouldn't harm others. The templars were to watch and advice, and ultimately deal with abominations and blood mages as they popped up.

It's a far cry from what it was originally supposed to be. [/quote]
The Circle also exists to limit the use of destructie magics which is a worthy goal. Giving the mages free rein to unleash their destructive power goes against this goal and endagers many. We don't needmages with an affinity and fondness for destruction.

[quote]
Gregoire was pushing for the mage warden to be punished, investigated, and possibly sent to Aeonar, even if the mage was working under Irving's orders. Gregoire outright states that he doesn't trust the mage warden when Duncan conscripts him/her.

Gregoire doesn't once agree with rewarding the mage, but he legally can't do anything because the Wardens have the authority to conscript anyone they so choose. [/quote]
Gregoir was clearly frustrated that Jowan had escaped and was angry with Irving, and by extension  the Mage Warden, for stonewalling him which helped the blood mage. But he doesn't threaten nor does Duncan conscript anyone. Irving and Duncan simply convince Gregoir that the Warden deserves to be recruited.

[quote]
It's true we do know that, but the Chantry didn't do anything to curtail her overreach of power. Elthina (keeping to the point of the thread) had more than enough authority to remove Meredith and replace her with Cullen. All Elthina did was chastise her like a child and pray the situation would blow over without her help.

The whole situation could have been prevented if the Chantry investigated Meredith and took her out of there. Thrask was in the right trying to depose her, even if methods were stupid, idiotic, and from the pro-mage playthrough, makes absolutely no sense at all. [/quote]
By the time Meredith's actions may have justified her removal; which is arguable considering the high number of blood mages and abomination in the city; she was not going anywhere without a fight.
Meredith would simply declare Elthina corrupted by blood magic; the templars would split down the middle over who to support; the blood mages would take this opportunity to cause chaos and there would be templars fighting amongst each other and against mages in the streets of Kirkwall. And, if the mages won, chances are the Divine would have sent her army to raze the city to the ground.

[quote]
I gave you a list of reasons why people would want mages around, which was the question you asked, or I may have misinterpreted what you actually said. As for mages being free? When have I ever said they ought be removed from Circles and given total independence and autonomy? I never have. I have argued for more checks-and-balances on the templars so they don't have so much power over mages. I have argued allowing mages the right to marry without special permission and the ability to have children without them being taken away as Chantry property. I have argued allowing mages the right to go outside as apprentices or go on supervised visits to market squares and allowing them to see their families. [/quote]
Reasonable requests but this was a discussion carried over by LobselVith8 who is far less reasonable. I had claimed that mages policing themselves was terrible for mundanes. He then retorted by pointing out that Anora; a supposedly intelligent mundane; had allowed the mages to be free. I made the argument that it was OOC for Anora to do so and asked for reasons why any non-suicidal mundanes would want mages to be free.
Then you appeared and gave reasons why mages are useful. Which is true, they are, but their benefits don't require mages to be free while their threats are minimized by them being segregated from the mundane population.

[quote]
Was it the mages who started the blights? That's chantry lore, and even then it's questioned. We do know that the magisters who entered the Black City (it was already black when they got there) became awakened darkspawn. We know through the Architect in Awakening that they don't hear the call of the Old Gods at all. It's completely silent to them (which is what drove the Mother crazy.) They wouldn't be digging to unleash Old Gods because they wouldn't know where to go, and wouldn't hear the song.[/quote]
The darkspawn are, obviously, magical in nature. Nothing like them could have evolved naturally which means, that even if it weren't Corypheus and his Magister companions who created them, magic is still to blame.
However, I do believe that they were created by Corypheus and his ilk. Even if they didn't hear the Song, they would still want the Old Gods freed and would experiment to create lifeforms who could release them. The Darkspawn.

[quote]
A few bad apples may spoil the bunch, but the way I see it, we shouldn't let preconceived notions cloud our theories and judgements. It is mistake to form theories before we have facts as inevitably we'll try twisting facts to match our theories rather than change our theories to match the facts. [/quote]
I simply believe that those with such potential for destruction should have stricter restrictions placed upon their freedoms in order to protect others much like we, in our world today, have to obey rules and restrictions so society can exist.

[quote]
Most of the lore we have suggests that templars and the Chantry abusing power is more common than abominations, and just as deadly.[/quote]
That's untrue.

[TEWR]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Hawke had just discovered a group of Circle Mages practicing forbidden magic. Meredith has every reason to suspect there were others inside the Circle. [/quote]

Actually, the journal written in second person omniscient view says that the rebellion was put down entirely. Then you've got Hawke potentially telling Meredith that Orsino had no part in it, to which she doesn't go "Maybe my suspicions were wrong" like Orsino does.

No, she goes "I see Orsino has put his blood magic hooks into you Champion. A shame."

[quote]It's just a search. What harm could there have been in allowing Meredith to perform her duty unless Orsino knew that there were things in the Circle that shouldn't have been there?
[/quote]

Because Meredith doesn't know restraint. As you find out, she's been going over Elthina's head to try and get an RoA authorized. She's not doing the search to weed out blood mages for the good of Mage and mundane. She's doing it so she can have something to vindicate her desire for an RoA.

Even when Orsino is willing to help her with the search, she goes "LOL nope, sorry! I've got the authority now and you're all gonna die!"

[quote]Tevinter and their giant scorpions.[/quote]

Always makes me laugh. Hopefully Tevinter and their giant scorpions will go up against the Qunari and their giant gorillas.

[quote]Hawke had just finished hunting three apostates for Meredith. It's not like Thrask would have had insight about why he did so or just how dangerous two of those mages were.[/quote]

During BSC, one Templar will go "We know you're spying for Orsino!" like that's a bad thing. Yes, the man who opposes Meredith and wants her ousted is asking for the help of the Champion who is also opposing Meredith and wants her ousted.

Then, you go forward to meeting with Thrask who will go "Why do you help Meredith?" when he'll acknowledge that Hawke sided with Orsino earlier in the game.

Bioware did not think that quest through at all. It only makes a modicum of sense if you're consistently pro-Templar.

[quote] Becoming an Harvester should be something that requires detailed studying, years of practice.[/quote]

Except you can't apply blood magic use in general to a complicated ritual that's different from your average "STABBY STAB STAB" spell.

It doesn't work like that.

[quote]The Pride Demons. In Broken Circle, the situation was much worse and yet, there was only one Pride Demon in there. Uldred himself who we know had been practicing blood magic for years. Pride Demons are not things a first time blood mage can summon, much less control.[/quote]

There were some Pride Abominations. And the Veil in Kirkwall is a lot thinner then it is in Ferelden.

[quote]If Pride Demons could have simply crossed the Veil on their own, the city would have been razed to the ground years ago. That blood mage on thr Docks was clearly someone who tried to summon a Pride, lost control and became an Abomination.[/quote]

She doesn't become an Abomination.

And you've got higher-tier Demons crossing over at times during the game.

[quote]So he is just assuming the worst about templars? Much like he asks people not to assume about mages?[/quote]

Considering the Templars are acting like crazed beasts and even the populus of Kirkwall shares this sentiment, then I don't see the problem.

[quote]Maybe if he had been more cooperative with Meredith, things wouldn't have deteriorated so much.[/quote]

Meredith's the psycho-dictator who, when told of Orsino's innocence regarding the (justified) rebellion under Thrask, says that Orsino must've hooked his way into the Champion through blood magic to say such a thing.

Whereas if Orsino is told Meredith had no part in the rebellion that he thought she engineered to incriminate himself, he'll admit he was wrong.

Meredith clings to her paranoia. Orsino is willing to compromise, something even Elthina admits. Meredith clutches at her power as KC and the unofficial Viscountess like a drowning man does a straw.

[quote]Like Zathrian putting his revenge above the clan? Or Marethary doing the same with Merril? [/quote]

The former can do that. Marethari's just an idiot.

[quote]o elves have a way to override the orders of a Keeper if they are obviously harmful to the clan other than basically pack your stuff and leave?[/quote]

I believe they do, but in the case of Marethari's clan it was that she was continuously being manipulated by Audacity -- as we find out she could hear him at the base of the mountain in the short story and proximity plays a part in how powerful he is -- and because of that she wouldn't listen to the counsel of the elder Elves. 

So they had to leave.

[quote]I'll simply claim that Bioware is writing him unrealistically and that in real life, no one would resist the corruption of power. I'll believe it too.[/quote]

So essentially... if it doesn't fit your preconceived notions, it's not "realistic"?

[quote]C'mon, he is a teenager who speads his time floating through the Fade looking for wrongs to right? C'mon!
[/quote]

Young adult. I'd argue that he's at least 16 in Act 1. If so, then he'd be 23 during Act 3. But he might even be 18 during Act 1.

[quote]That fact that many may not act like Vellana doesn't change the fact that many do. Most of Vellana's clan appeared to be quite decent people, sure. But every single elf in Merril's clain was hostile towards humans in a way or other.[/quote]

There can't be "many doing X, many doing Y". It's "many do X, the remainder do Y". Zathrian's clan wasn't hostile to the Warden. Blunt, perhaps. But not hostile -- save for the storyteller, who understandably lost many close people and relatives so his mind's going to be frazzled.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 janvier 2013 - 09:50 .

[MisterJB]

TEWR: I can prove beyond deniability that Orsino was harboring blood mages known to have practiced their sinister craft for some time.



AHA!

[andy6915]

^
I don't get it.

[MisterJB]

That's Alain. He is a blood mage.
Not exactly a bad person, tough.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

TEWR: I can prove beyond deniability that Orsino was harboring blood mages known to have practiced their sinister craft for some time.



AHA!

I laughed a bit. Gotta say, that was well played.

But Alain hardly counts as a blood mage, I think. Sure, he used it to free Carver/Bethany/Merrill/whoever, but he's not someone that really struck me as going to continue practicing it. Plus, Alain's only spared by the Templars if Hawke advocates it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 janvier 2013 - 03:16 .

[MisterJB]

Thank you.

Truth be told, Alian is one of the few mages in both games I would have little to no fear living next door to. He got involved in with the bigger kids (Decimus) but as soon as they start thinking that Walking Dead is a good idea, he quite happily turns himself in to the templars. Then, when he actually turns to blood magic it is because of bastards like Karras taking advantage of him and, even then, his anger seems entirely focused on Meredith, refuses to harm an hostage and when Cullen arrives and there is a good chance he might be killed or made Tranquil, the first things he does is stand up for the Champion of Kirkwall.
He might have just been trying to have Hawke stand up for him in return but still... the moral character of this kid is impressive.

[TEWR]

 

MisterJB wrote...

Becoming an Harvester should be something that requires detailed studying, years of practice.

It occurred to me during work that you can't claim this at all regarding Orsino, because of Adralla -- someone I've mentioned in passing before but the reasons why never hit me until just a few hours ago.

Adralla was a Mage from Tevinter that studied blood magic extensively, but never once practiced it. Through her studies, she was able to devise a number of counterspells, incantations, charms, and whatever else in regards to things blood magic can be used for. This resulted in her attempted assassination no less then 3 times, wherein she fled to Ferelden to continue her studies.

This shows that one can indeed be an academic blood mage yet have a deep understanding of how to use it and -- by extension -- how to fight it.

So to say that because Orsino could only have been a practicing blood mage when nothing in-game truly supports that -- but other sources in-game support the opposite idea -- just doesn't hold water. Adralla studied blood magic extensively and never once practiced it, yet she was able to think up successful counterspells. I see no reason why Orsino couldn't have been an academic blood mage like Adralla who never once practiced it until the endgame.

At most, you can say he had a deep understanding of blood magic, which I wouldn't really deny. But that's not the same as being a practitioner.

Incidentally, Wynne starts talking about how "Adralla was a bard", which tells me that the Chantry doesn't even want to admit that Adralla was a good person from Tevinter and an academic student of blood magic. That the Mages buy that bull**** story is sad, because they don't even question how a bard could've thought up counterspells.

Perhaps they have good reasons, trying to curtail the study of blood magic because it would lead to more sinners then saints. But even so, it strikes of hypocrisy. They preach blood magic is evil, yet secretly know that it's capable of just as much good as evil. And the Circles have phylacteries, a form of blood magic. And I'm willing to bet the Chantry knows that Andraste was a blood mage -- possibly even a Somniari Blood Mage OGB.

MisterJB wrote...

That blood mage on thr Docks was clearly someone who tried to summon a Pride, lost control and became an Abomination.

In addition to what I said above, you're taking the gameplay as equivalent to the story. It isn't. It doesn't even reflect the story. It would if the Blood Mage on the Docks said "Demons, to me!" or something similar. But she doesn't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 janvier 2013 - 03:28 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...
He might have just been trying to have Hawke stand up for him in return but still... the moral character of this kid is impressive.

I wouldn't mind living next door to him either. I'd throw in Merrill, Jowan, Morrigan, Finn, and perhaps a few other Mages as well.

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually, the journal written in second person omniscient view says that the rebellion was put down entirely. Then you've got Hawke potentially telling Meredith that Orsino had no part in it, to which she doesn't go "Maybe my suspicions were wrong" like Orsino does.

No, she goes "I see Orsino has put his blood magic hooks into you Champion. A shame."[/quote]
An "omniscient" journal that doesn't exist inlore is not acceptable as argument. Especially since Meredith wouldn't have acess to it.
Anyway, yes, the Idol icnreased Meredith's paranoia by a hundredfold but the point still stands. Circles Mages have been discovered to be practicioners of blood magic. Searching the tower to make sure there are no more is not such an unresonable demand.

[quote]
Because Meredith doesn't know restraint. As you find out, she's been going over Elthina's head to try and get an RoA authorized. She's not doing the search to weed out blood mages for the good of Mage and mundane. She's doing it so she can have something to vindicate her desire for an RoA.

Even when Orsino is willing to help her with the search, she goes "LOL nope, sorry! I've got the authority now and you're all gonna die!"[/quote]
Before Ander's terrorist, Meredith, despite having the Idol clearly sapping away at her sanity, is still capable of distinguishing the Bethanys of this world from the Tahrones and clearly showed compassiong for mages and regret for what she feels must be done to protect innocents. Ultimately, she was actually right. Orsino was a blood mage who was using his autorithy as FE to harbor other blood mages.
Restraint may or may not have been involved but I seriously doubt she would have seen bloodied tissues from some unlucky mage having her time of the month and went "BLOOD MAGIC! WE MUST BRING THIS TO GRAND CLERIC ELTHINA!"
It would have been funny to see tough.

[quote]Always makes me laugh. Hopefully Tevinter and their giant scorpions will go up against the Qunari and their giant gorillas.[/quote]
It does seem a tad cartoony. Here is a failrproof guideline for writing fiction "If it was in Clash of the Titans, avoid".
Except if it's Liam Neeson because he is awesome.

[quote]During BSC, one Templar will go "We know you're spying for Orsino!" like that's a bad thing. Yes, the man who opposes Meredith and wants her ousted is asking for the help of the Champion who is also opposing Meredith and wants her ousted.[/quote]
Maybe you should consider the possibility that Orsino just is not the lamb you see him as. Perhaps he wanted a Circle without any templar supervision.

[quote]Then, you go forward to meeting with Thrask who will go "Why do you help Meredith?" when he'll acknowledge that Hawke sided with Orsino earlier in the game.[/quote]
Hawke has just finished hunting three apostates for her. It's not like Thrask would know the reasons behind this.

[quote]
Except you can't apply blood magic use in general to a complicated ritual that's different from your average "STABBY STAB STAB" spell.

It doesn't work like that.[/quote]
He had been providing Quentin with books on Necromancy. He was clearly a studious of the Dark Arts.

[quote]
She doesn't become an Abomination.

And you've got higher-tier Demons crossing over at times during the game.[/quote]
You're right, she doesn't. But the presence of a blood mage near a demon implies a summoning.
When? if Pride Demons could just cross over the Veil like that, Kirkwall would have been burnt to the ground long ago.
[quote]
Considering the Templars are acting like crazed beasts and even the populus of Kirkwall shares this sentiment, then I don't see the problem.[/quote]
A lot of mages were acting like crazed beasts too.
It bothers me hearing Orsino and Anders going on and on about "presuming the worst about mages" and then have them do the same and I can't point out their hipocrisy.
And they are proven wrong both times.

[quote]
Meredith's the psycho-dictator who, when told of Orsino's innocence regarding the (justified) rebellion under Thrask, says that Orsino must've hooked his way into the Champion through blood magic to say such a thing.

Whereas if Orsino is told Meredith had no part in the rebellion that he thought she engineered to incriminate himself, he'll admit he was wrong.

Meredith clings to her paranoia. Orsino is willing to compromise, something even Elthina admits. Meredith clutches at her power as KC and the unofficial Viscountess like a drowning man does a straw.[/quote]

Orsino hid Quentin's existence long before the Idol had time to chip Meredith's sanity away. Yes, she went mad eventually but had Orsino worked to extablish a more cooperative relationship, the madness might have been averted.
Hiding blood mages out of fear of what the templars might do is not justifiable and it actually leads to them cracking down on the mages when these blood mages enevitably come to light.
But of course, the safety of the mages is much more important to Orsino. Who cares if a few mothers, wives, sisters, daugthers are killed?

[quote]
The former can do that. Marethari's just an idiot.[/quote]
Sorry, not following.

[quote]
I believe they do, but in the case of Marethari's clan it was that she was continuously being manipulated by Audacity -- as we find out she could hear him at the base of the mountain in the short story and proximity plays a part in how powerful he is -- and because of that she wouldn't listen to the counsel of the elder Elves. 

So they had to leave.[/quote]
So, basically, all the mundanes elves can do is bring their complaints to the Keepers who might summarely ignore them for any reason they deem fit. That's mages supremacism.

[quote]
So essentially... if it doesn't fit your preconceived notions, it's not "realistic"?[/quote]
People react in certain ways to stimulus. We have distinct personalies and cultures, certainly, but there are certain things we all share such as a survival instict. Despite what fiction would have you believe, self sacrifice is something rare in our world.
One can reasonably expect people with power to be primarely concerned about two things. Keeping that pwoer and increasing it.

[quote]
Young adult. I'd argue that he's at least 16 in Act 1. If so, then he'd be 23 during Act 3. But he might even be 18 during Act 1.[/quote]
He is behaving like a comic book hero.

[quote]
There can't be "many doing X, many doing Y". It's "many do X, the remainder do Y". Zathrian's clan wasn't hostile to the Warden. Blunt, perhaps. But not hostile -- save for the storyteller, who understandably lost many close people and relatives so his mind's going to be frazzled.
[/quote]
Sure, there can. Many people like classical music and many people like metal.
What there can't be is "most do X, most do Y" but that's not what I said.
Zathrian's clan wanted to dictate where the Warden could or couldn't go inside his own country and threatened to attack if he didn't obey. Altough I admit Marethari's seems to have been the clan where they dumped all self rigtheous a**holes amongst the Dalish.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Merrill,

Miss-Talks-With-Demons.

Jowan,

Jowan is not a bad person but he is likely to burn down half the city trying to cook an egg.

Morrigan,

Hum...no. I love Morrigan, she is my favorite character but definitively not.
And it doesn't have so much to do with her being a mage than with her being...Morrigan.

Finn,

A bit too willing to use blood magic and conceal it from the templars to my taste.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
It occurred to me during work that you can't claim this at all regarding Orsino, because of Adralla -- someone I've mentioned in passing before but the reasons why never hit me until just a few hours ago.

Adralla was a Mage from Tevinter that studied blood magic extensively, but never once practiced it. Through her studies, she was able to devise a number of counterspells, incantations, charms, and whatever else in regards to things blood magic can be used for. This resulted in her attempted assassination no less then 3 times, wherein she fled to Ferelden to continue her studies.

This shows that one can indeed be an academic blood mage yet have a deep understanding of how to use it and -- by extension -- how to fight it.

So to say that because Orsino could only have been a practicing blood mage when nothing in-game truly supports that -- but other sources in-game support the opposite idea -- just doesn't hold water. Adralla studied blood magic extensively and never once practiced it, yet she was able to think up successful counterspells. I see no reason why Orsino couldn't have been an academic blood mage like Adralla who never once practiced it until the endgame.

At most, you can say he had a deep understanding of blood magic, which I wouldn't really deny. But that's not the same as being a practitioner.

That's different. The lythany is not blood magic. In fact, I'd hesitate to call it magic at all since it can be used by mundanes.
Someone who intends to create a bulletproof vest doesn't need to be able to know how a gun works. They need to know the material of the bullets, the speed it can move, how the air will slow it down and probrably many other things. But they don't need to actually know how to fire a gun, they're not intending on using it.
What Orsino did was basically claim that he never touched a gun in his life and then still be able to create a bleeding rocket launcher out of spare parts he found lying around and I do not buy it.

Incidentally, Wynne starts talking about how "Adralla was a bard", which tells me that the Chantry doesn't even want to admit that Adralla was a good person from Tevinter and an academic student of blood magic. That the Mages buy that bull**** story is sad, because they don't even question how a bard could've thought up counterspells.

There is really no reason why someone like Dagna shouldn't be able to study the theory of magic and come up with counterspells. Maybe Adralla was a bard at one point in the way to Ferelden.

Perhaps they have good reasons, trying to curtail the study of blood magic because it would lead to more sinners then saints. But even so, it strikes of hypocrisy. They preach blood magic is evil, yet secretly know that it's capable of just as much good as evil. And the Circles have phylacteries, a form of blood magic.

There is a measure of hipocrisy in it, yes. But whether it is as much capable of good as it is of evil is a matter of interpretation. What is a fact is that blood magic is uniquely suited towards evil with things such as mind control, blood sacrifice, blood wound.
Is it truly asking that much for mages to abstain from a singular school of magic?

And I'm willing to bet the Chantry knows that Andraste was a blood mage -- possibly even a Somniari Blood Mage OGB.

Maybe but I'd rather Bioware revealed she was just a normal human woman. No magic, no Maker.
Mages already have a prominent place in the games as it is.

In addition to what I said above, you're taking the gameplay as equivalent to the story. It isn't. It doesn't even reflect the story. It would if the Blood Mage on the Docks said "Demons, to me!" or something similar. But she doesn't.

Neither has any other blood mage in the series when summoning demons.

[TEWR]

*Sigh*

Once again Opera decides to be a ****ing piece of **** when I'm typing out a long post, erasing everything I've written. Here we go again: 

[quote]An "omniscient" journal that doesn't exist inlore is not acceptable as argument. Especially since Meredith wouldn't have acess to it.[/quote]

Sure, for Meredith's viewpoint we can't take it into consideration. For arguing facts however on the BSN, we can. But IIRC, Hawke can tell Meredith the rebellion was stopped entirely, since we can learn Thrask's spearheading it.

[quote]Anyway, yes, the Idol icnreased Meredith's paranoia by a hundredfold but the point still stands. Circles Mages have been discovered to be practicioners of blood magic. Searching the tower to make sure there are no more is not such an unresonable demand.[/quote]

If Gregoir or Cullen were proposing it, I'd agree. But this is Meredith we're talking about. She doesn't listen to reason. Whenever she's reminded of her original duty as a Templar -- her true duty -- she ignores it and continues on as Viscount unofficial. 

When she took command of the Templars in 9:21 Dragon unofficially, she began instituting a wide array of anti-Mage policies, when her predecessor had managed to live in a Circle where Mages and Templars worked together -- as we find out before Meredith, things were not so chaotic.

When Orsino rose to First Enchanter in 9:26 Dragon, he began arguing with Meredith to have her try and rescind these policies that squeezed the Mages more and more. But she wouldn't relent, and so their arguments became even more heated over time.

Orsino, by Act 3, has repeatedly taken his protests to Meredith to try and get her to see reason. She's ignored them. She refuses to listen to Orsino's protests -- labeling them "excuses" -- and eventually ignores Elthina's counsel.

It's not fair to punish all of the Mages for the actions of a few. Find out the ones involved and don't try and incriminate the rest. But Meredith's incapable of doing that.

[quote]Before Ander's terrorist, Meredith, despite having the Idol clearly sapping away at her sanity, is still capable of distinguishing the Bethanys of this world from the Tahrones and clearly showed compassiong for mages and regret for what she feels must be done to protect innocents.[/quote]

She doesn't recognize Hawke as being a Bethany over a Tarohne. She brings up Bethany trying to subtly use her as a bit of blackmail for why Hawke should do her bidding. Sure, she blankets it by saying "I admire her", but that's shallow because why else would you bring up the sister of the person who's refusing to work with you?

[quote]Restraint may or may not have been involved but I seriously doubt she would have seen bloodied tissues from some unlucky mage having her time of the month and went "BLOOD MAGIC! WE MUST BRING THIS TO GRAND CLERIC ELTHINA!"
It would have been funny to see tough.[/quote]

Yeah, it would be funny to see that. But I also think that's how far gone she is, such that a Mage can't do anything without being looked at by her with suspicion.

[quote]It does seem a tad cartoony[/quote]

So long as I get a gorilla companion, I can take a bit of cartoony giant scorpions.

[quote]Here is a failrproof guideline for writing fiction "If it was in Clash of the Titans, avoid".
Except if it's Liam Neeson because he is awesome.[/quote]

Liam Neeson should voice a Mage. Now who should voice a Templar? 

[quote]Perhaps he wanted a Circle without any templar supervision.[/quote]

Doubtful given that he tries to get Meredith to return to her true duty as a Templar in the opening, works with Elthina to better the Circle, and is considered a reasonable man by Elthina herself.

[quote]Hawke has just finished hunting three apostates for her. It's not like Thrask would know the reasons behind this.[/quote]

Thrask can't ask around? Thrask can't think that maybe Meredith's blackmailing the Champion if he's a Mage/has a sister in the Circle? Thrask can't think?

Thrask only leaves once BSC is initiated. If I talk to him after OtL and he acknowledges how I supported Orsino, that should clue him in as to whose side I'm on.

[quote]He had been providing Quentin with books on Necromancy. He was clearly a studious of the Dark Arts.[/quote]

So, academic blood mage. 

Having books on necromancy doesn't mean anyone that reads them is a practicing blood mage. Ferelden's Circle had books on blood magic just lying around -- for what reason I cannot say, as it doesn't seem Irving was aware they were there, though I'd hazard a guess the Chantry is trying to do some entrapment -- but that doesn't mean anyone that read them was a practitioner of the art.

Perhaps Orsino found them lying around the Circle and sent them to Quentin. They could've been in a storage room or on a shelf or something.

Hell, we don't even know what those books said at all. All we know is that they're books on necromancy, but for all we know it could just be a book talking about stuff where blood magic isn't the focus, but on ideas surrounding the nature of the soul, the Fade, magic, and so on since they're all connected.

[quote]But the presence of a blood mage near a demon implies a summoning.[/quote]

Still trying to equate gameplay to lore.


[quote]When? if Pride Demons could just cross over the Veil like that, Kirkwall would have been burnt to the ground long ago.[/quote]

Hybris made his way through and had to be sealed. You fight Revenants, who are corpses possessed by Desire and Pride Demons. You fight Arcane Horrors, who are the same thing. Two Pride Demons make their way through the Veil on their own in the Gallows during the endgame, and summon Demons on their own. And Desire Demons also make their way through a few times.

[quote]A lot of mages were acting like crazed beasts too.[/quote]

I wouldn't say a lot, but I won't say there were none either. Grace, Tarohne, Quentin, Tarohne's goons, apostate gang leaders.

[quote]It bothers me hearing Orsino and Anders going on and on about "presuming the worst about mages" and then have them do the same and I can't point out their hipocrisy.
And they are proven wrong both times.[/quote]

I think what they meant was "Don't presume we're all Magisters in the making or that we're just weak buffoons". For Orsino, you have to look at the situation he's in for both sides. It's not fair to just look at the blood magic and say "Vindication!", because that ignores other factors at work.

[quote]Orsino hid Quentin's existence long before the Idol had time to chip Meredith's sanity away. Yes, she went mad eventually but had Orsino worked to extablish a more cooperative relationship, the madness might have been averted.[/quote]

Meredith was given info on Quentin in Act 1 and did nothing, pawning off the job to the City Guard. I'm sorry, but if Demons show up after a man with a mage's staff has fled the scene and there are body parts in the area, the Templars should have that place under guard. Two of the companions -- maybe 3, can't recall -- even say those Demons were summoned there.

And the City Guard should as well, if Aveline herself saw those things. But she doesn't think it's to be taken seriously anyway.

And Meredith refused to send some of her Templars to Aveline to deal with magical threats. Oh sure, during Act 3 she's willing to do so. So long as the City Guard bows to her leadership. 

That's not a vote in her favor. She's looking for more power, not trying to keep the city safe.

[quote]Sorry, not following[/quote]

Zathrian can move past it. Sure he needs the Warden's help to do so, but he still does it. And Marethari's an idiot. No more need be said.

[quote]So, basically, all the mundanes elves can do is bring their complaints to the Keepers who might summarely ignore them for any reason they deem fit. That's mages supremacism.[/quote]

In an extremely rare situation that no other clan will likely find themselves in, sure.

[quote]Zathrian's clan wanted to dictate where the Warden could or couldn't go inside his own country and threatened to attack if he didn't obey.[/quote]

Bear in mind many of their people have been wounded and inflicted with the Werewolf curse. So their first priority is ensuring that they can survive. If a well-armed human is coming up to them, they're going to want to make sure they don't pose a threat to the clan's survival without actually making things worse.

And it's only "his own country" if you're playing one of 3 origins. The others don't actually hail from Ferelden and aren't treated by the Dalish on guard in a hostile manner.

Well, if they start dodging the question they kinda are. But not like "YOU ARE NOT WELCOME, LEAVE HERE AT ONCE" level hostility.

It's more like "Damn it, I'm going to ask this one more time. What are you doing here?"


[quote]Miss-Talks-With-Demons.[/quote]

Only talked with Audacity once, to learn blood magic. Audacity can only whisper to those people that are at the base of the mountain and the farther up they go the louder he can be heard. But Merrill didn't rely on him for 7 years and only went to him as a last resort. A true last resort, as she had exhausted every other option she knew about.

[quote]Jowan is not a bad person but he is likely to burn down half the city trying to cook an egg.[/quote]

Scrambled, over-easy, poached, hardboiled, or an omelette? 

We must take into account what type of egg he's cooking here. 

[quote]And it doesn't have so much to do with her being a mage than with her being...Morrigan.[/quote]

I said I wouldn't mind living next door to her. Interacting with her is another matter.

[quote]A bit too willing to use blood magic and conceal it from the templars to my taste.[/quote]

Eh, he's a good Mage.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 janvier 2013 - 07:34 .

[TEWR]

There is really no reason why someone like Dagna shouldn't be able to study the theory of magic and come up with counterspells. Maybe Adralla was a bard at one point in the way to Ferelden.

I think if Adralla was a non-Mage that studied magic at Ferelden's Circle, then Gregoir would've been more keen on the notion for Dagna doing it because there would've been records.

Someone who intends to create a bulletproof vest doesn't need to be able to know how a gun works. They need to know the material of the bullets, the speed it can move, how the air will slow it down and probrably many other things. But they don't need to actually know how to fire a gun, they're not intending on using it.

But for blood magic, you do need to know how it works. That's what Adralla did.

Neither has any other blood mage in the series when summoning demons.

Decimus.

In fact, I'd hesitate to call it magic at all since it can be used by mundanes.

So can anti-magic, and that's a form of magic.

It's still magic. Just magic capable of being used by mundanes like Templar abilities, Reaver abilities, Warden abilities, Spirit Warrior abilities, etc.

Is it truly asking that much for mages to abstain from a singular school of magic?

Of course not, but I'd think it'd be good for them to admit that it's capable of just as much good as evil even if it's going to remain illegal, since it's just a tool and not a living creature. It's not like blood mages don't exist otherwise. And who knows, more good things might pop up.

We know it can heal withered crops, control blood flow in a good way, cleanse tainted objects, help the Wardens fight the Darkspawn, is a part of the phylacteries, and creates the Wardens themselves.

Perhaps even extremely limited academic studies of blood magic could be done. Like, one Mage per 30 years.

[dragonflight288]

I think a saying applies here.

There is no greater guarantee to have people do something than by telling them not to do it.

Blood magic ought be illegal in many cases, but the Templars and Chatnry could start admitting that they use it themselves in the form of phylacteries and they agreed it could be used for good when they worked with Magister Adralla.

Finn says it well in Witch Hunt when asked if using Dalish Blood as a component in a spell counted as blood magic, even though it didn't power the spell. His response was that the blood was simply a component, but because it was used, it may be looked at as blood magic by the Chantry, and was a grey area.

If blood being used makes something blood magic, then phylacteries, the Joining, and the Reaver ritual all qualify as blood magic.

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Here is a failrproof guideline for writing fiction "If it was in Clash of the Titans, avoid".
Except if it's Liam Neeson because he is awesome.

Liam Neeson should voice a Mage. Now who should voice a Templar?

Morgan Freeman or James Earl Jones 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So, basically, all the mundanes elves can do is bring their complaints to the Keepers who might summarely ignore them for any reason they deem fit. That's mages supremacism.

In an extremely rare situation that no other clan will likely find themselves in, sure.

Not really.  If the only option available to you is to appeal to an individual and either live with their decision or leave, that's supreme authourity.  If it came down to a vote between the Hahren, Keeper, Crafter, and senior most Hunter (or most skilled) that'd be different.  Since only mages can become Keepers the Dalish live under a mage supremacy.  It may not be a problem in most instances but that doesn't change what it is.

[andy6915]

The thing about why Meredith brings up Bethany if you refuse to help is exactly for why Ethereal said. She was pretty much saying:

"That nice mage sister you have in our circle. She's a good mage. Wouldn't it be such a... Shame, if she had to be made tranquil for some reason?"

Nothing but a passive aggressive threat.

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Sure, for Meredith's viewpoint we can't take it into consideration. For arguing facts however on the BSN, we can. But IIRC, Hawke can tell Meredith the rebellion was stopped entirely, since we can learn Thrask's spearheading it.[/quote]
We really can't. That journal exists outside of the lora and is there solely for the advanyage of the player and open to change whenever the writers think necessary. It has no more meaning than the numbers who float above the heads of the NPCs when hit.
Anyway, where there is one blood mage, there could be dozens since they can simply teach each other. Who can say for sure that Hawke killed all Circle blood mages involved? Searching the tower is a necessary precaution.
I mean, the guards of Amaranthine were searching through people's packages for smuggled good and this is blood magic we're talking about.

[quote]
If Gregoir or Cullen were proposing it, I'd agree. But this is Meredith we're talking about. She doesn't listen to reason. Whenever she's reminded of her original duty as a Templar -- her true duty -- she ignores it and continues on as Viscount unofficial. 

When she took command of the Templars in 9:21 Dragon unofficially, she began instituting a wide array of anti-Mage policies, when her predecessor had managed to live in a Circle where Mages and Templars worked together -- as we find out before Meredith, things were not so chaotic.

When Orsino rose to First Enchanter in 9:26 Dragon, he began arguing with Meredith to have her try and rescind these policies that squeezed the Mages more and more. But she wouldn't relent, and so their arguments became even more heated over time.

Orsino, by Act 3, has repeatedly taken his protests to Meredith to try and get her to see reason. She's ignored them. She refuses to listen to Orsino's protests -- labeling them "excuses" -- and eventually ignores Elthina's counsel.

It's not fair to punish all of the Mages for the actions of a few. Find out the ones involved and don't try and incriminate the rest. But Meredith's incapable of doing that.[/quote]
I don't see it as Meredith punishing all for the crimes of a few. Rather, I see it as Meredith taking precaution to ensure these "few" were all it was ever going to be.
She only punished all for the crimes of the one after what Osama Bin Anders did.
[quote]
She doesn't recognize Hawke as being a Bethany over a Tarohne.[/quote]
Hawke is no Bethany. And that was after the Idol took complete control because of Anders.

[quote]She brings up Bethany trying to subtly use her as a bit of blackmail for why Hawke should do her bidding. Sure, she blankets it by saying "I admire her", but that's shallow because why else would you bring up the sister of the person who's refusing to work with you?[/quote]
To prove that you don't believe all mages are monsters despite what your opponent, Hawke, may thin of yo.
I admit that the possibility of blackmaiing was my first tough but we know Meredith is not entirely unsynpathetic regarding the mages.

[quote]
Yeah, it would be funny to see that. But I also think that's how far gone she is, such that a Mage can't do anything without being looked at by her with suspicion.[/quote]
I don 't think so. Before the destruction of the Chantry, she was still capable of feeling sadness over her measures and of recognizing obviously good mages. Ok yes, she was already past the point where if she found no evidence, she simply assumed Orsino had hid his tracks exceedingly well but that suspicious was directed at Orsino, not everuy mage in the Circle.

[quote]
So long as I get a gorilla companion, I can take a bit of cartoony giant scorpions.[/quote]
Aren't they out of place tough? Were scorpions common in the Byzantine Empire?

[quote]
Liam Neeson should voice a Mage. Now who should voice a Templar? [/quote]
No, Liam Neeson should voice an Inquisitor. Sir Christopher Lee should voice a First Enchanter or a Magister.

[quote]
Doubtful given that he tries to get Meredith to return to her true duty as a Templar in the opening, works with Elthina to better the Circle, and is considered a reasonable man by Elthina herself.[/quote]
Elthina didn't know about Orsino helping a blood mage(s), did she? And it makes sense for him to wish to undermine the power base of his enemy, Meredith. That doesn't remove the possibility of him wanting that power for himself.

[quote]
Thrask can't ask around? Thrask can't think that maybe Meredith's blackmailing the Champion if he's a Mage/has a sister in the Circle? Thrask can't think?

Thrask only leaves once BSC is initiated. If I talk to him after OtL and he acknowledges how I supported Orsino, that should clue him in as to whose side I'm on.[/quote]
The possibility that Hawke has alligned with Meredith remains. And Thraks doesn't seem to trust Orsino, anywaym according to the reaction of his co-conspirators.
[quote]
So, academic blood mage. [/quote]
That would be bad enough. But I say Practicioner.

[quote]Having books on necromancy doesn't mean anyone that reads them is a practicing blood mage. Ferelden's Circle had books on blood magic just lying around -- for what reason I cannot say, as it doesn't seem Irving was aware they were there, though I'd hazard a guess the Chantry is trying to do some entrapment -- but that doesn't mean anyone that read them was a practitioner of the art.

Perhaps Orsino found them lying around the Circle and sent them to Quentin. They could've been in a storage room or on a shelf or something.[/quote]
Except Orsino used necromantic blood magic in the Gallows. Quentin was even sharing Rites describing how to create monstruous amalgams of dead bodies.

[quote]Hell, we don't even know what those books said at all. All we know is that they're books on necromancy, but for all we know it could just be a book talking about stuff where blood magic isn't the focus, but on ideas surrounding the nature of the soul, the Fade, magic, and so on since they're all connected.[/quote]
Your companions identify those books as books on necromancy and you can see drawings of the human body in its pages. Now this, by itself, it's not really sinister. Our doctors open the human body all the time.
However, considering that all of the uses of necromantic magic we've see have been quite nefarious; raising the undead, trapping human souls in dead bodies, Harvesters; I'm just going to say that those books really are not the type you want laying around.

[quote]
Hybris made his way through and had to be sealed. You fight Revenants, who are corpses possessed by Desire and Pride Demons. You fight Arcane Horrors, who are the same thing. Two Pride Demons make their way through the Veil on their own in the Gallows during the endgame, and summon Demons on their own. And Desire Demons also make their way through a few times.[/quote]
All of those could have been summoned by blood mages.

[quote]
I wouldn't say a lot, but I won't say there were none either. Grace, Tarohne, Quentin, Tarohne's goons, apostate gang leaders.[/quote]
Eveline, Huon, Decimus, Danarius, Tevinter slavers.


[quote]I think what they meant was "Don't presume we're all Magisters in the making or that we're just weak buffoons". [/quote]
Meanwhile assuming that all templars are just giddy at the idea of turning all mages Tranquil or that they will blame all mages for the crimes of a few.
Anders is the worst of the lot. Not only is an hypocrite, he is incapable of assuming both his failings and that of his kind. If Vengeance kills Ella, Anders wants to blame it on the templars and he, apparently, never met a mage who wanted to rule anything (<_< Never opened a book have we? It's called Tevinter) and couldn't believe that a mage could kill an innocent woman like Leandra. Amongst other defects but I'm starting to rant.

[quote]For Orsino, you have to look at the situation he's in for both sides. It's not fair to just look at the blood magic and say "Vindication!", because that ignores other factors at work.[/quote]
No, it's true. There was desperation involved.
[quote]
Meredith was given info on Quentin in Act 1 and did nothing, pawning off the job to the City Guard. I'm sorry, but if Demons show up after a man with a mage's staff has fled the scene and there are body parts in the area, the Templars should have that place under guard. Two of the companions -- maybe 3, can't recall -- even say those Demons were summoned there.

And the City Guard should as well, if Aveline herself saw those things. But she doesn't think it's to be taken seriously anyway.[/quote]
They searched the place. Demons being summoned is not that uncommon in Kirkwall.
Perhaps stronger measures could have been taken but had Orsino gone to Meredith with information about Quentin, he would have been stopped before he hurtn anyone else. He had three years to do so.

[quote]
That's not a vote in her favor. She's looking for more power, not trying to keep the city safe.[/quote]
We have some insight into Meredith's through her monologues. We know all she wants is to keep the city safe altough her methods might be questionable.

[quote]
Zathrian can move past it. Sure he needs the Warden's help to do so, but he still does it. And Marethari's an idiot. No more need be said.[/quote]
They still place their own interests above that of the clan. Just like a Magister.

[quote]
In an extremely rare situation that no other clan will likely find themselves in, sure.[/quote]
Basically, what DPSSOC said.
I will also add that the same thing could be said about Meredith and the Red Idiol.

[quote]
Bear in mind many of their people have been wounded and inflicted with the Werewolf curse. So their first priority is ensuring that they can survive. If a well-armed human is coming up to them, they're going to want to make sure they don't pose a threat to the clan's survival without actually making things worse.

And it's only "his own country" if you're playing one of 3 origins. The others don't actually hail from Ferelden and aren't treated by the Dalish on guard in a hostile manner.[/quote]
Well, my canon Warden is a Cousland so, while being cautious is understandable, it's his homeland and they have no right to tell him he can't cross the forest if he so pleases. The Brecillian Forest is not private propriety.

[quote]Well, if they start dodging the question they kinda are. But not like "YOU ARE NOT WELCOME, LEAVE HERE AT ONCE" level hostility.

It's more like "Damn it, I'm going to ask this one more time. What are you doing here?"[/quote]
They threaten to fill a human Warden with arrows.

[quote]
Only talked with Audacity once, to learn blood magic. Audacity can only whisper to those people that are at the base of the mountain and the farther up they go the louder he can be heard. But Merrill didn't rely on him for 7 years and only went to him as a last resort. A true last resort, as she had exhausted every other option she knew about.[/quote]
She admits to summoning a demon to open the barrier in Sundermount in the same day Hawke meets her. It seems to be a regular thing.

[quote]
Scrambled, over-easy, poached, hardboiled, or an omelette? 

We must take into account what type of egg he's cooking here. [/quote]
So we must for each attempt will elad to different nefarious effects.
Scrambled will likely lead to undead walking about, omelette could very well torn the Veil to pieces.
I suspect hardboiled is what made the dragons return.
[quote]
Eh, he's a good Mage.
[/quote]
Good mages can still be dangerous.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 janvier 2013 - 10:02 .