523 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

. Sir Christopher Lee should voice a First Enchanter or a Magister.

I'll address everything else but for the VG series setting I've been fleshing out in my spare time, one of the things I really want is for Christopher Lee to voice an equivalent of a First Enchanter.

Mainly because he pulled off Ansem the Wise so damn well in Kingdom Hearts II.

They searched the place.

No they didn't. If you ask Emeric about all the info Hawke gave him, Emeric says that he brought it to the Templars and Meredith and they just said it was a matter for the City Guard. And then the City Guard didn't even help.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 janvier 2013 - 02:58 .

[MisterJB]

The city guard would have, at the very least, conducted a search in the building the remains were found. I mean...that's just basics.

[TEWR]

Not really, as when it was passed off to Aveline she just scoffed at the notion, rejecting what evidence Emeric did manage to find and collect. Demonic presence, phylactery stopping cold at that foundry, etc.

And if Aveline sees Demons in the place and remarks that they must have been summoned by someone trying to keep them from investigating -- especially since they only appear after the man (Quentin) flees the scene -- then I'd expect her to give a little more credence to Emeric's notion of there being a killer out there then just going "LOL Kirkwall's crazy man, you know this".

Add into that how you find a further link between Ninette and Mharen -- that they both received lilies from someone -- and how Hawke saw someone fleeing the scene, which he/she can tell Emeric, and... well.... there's just no excuse for that. Quentin could've been apprehended a lot sooner -- or at least had a lot of people close to nailing him -- if both the Templars and the City Guard had actually done their job when evidence was given to them. 

Like I've said before, both Aveline and Meredith are incompetent. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 janvier 2013 - 08:06 .

[Reikilea]

Honestly there is too many people to blame, and Anders is the last on the list.

Elthina. Yes. Of course. For years she watched as Meredith rampaged the Kirkwall and assaulted the mages. And did nothing. She saw it when Meredith hungered for power and acted as a viscount, successfully creating a tension in the city, when Meredith wiped the mages undeground and locked mages in their cells. Oh and the fact she was suspiciously quiet when Meredith has sent for the Right of Annulment, before the things went bad. All those innocent younglings. Either she was blind, or she was openly supporting Meredith´s actions or she is the flattest character ever created. 

Isabella is also to blame. Her action led to Quanari assaulting the city, which led into the death of the viscount, that led to Meredith taking his place and using it to squeeze the mages.

And ser Alrik for overstepping his boundaries and making harroved mage and senior enchanted the tranquil - only to mess with his ex-lover. And you people wonder why he was angry. I would go on a rampage killing. Anders would leave with Karl and without him there templars would have invoked right of the annulment, wiping the mages somthing that would start the rebellion even without Anders.

[DPSSOC]

Reikilea wrote...
Honestly there is too many people to blame, and Anders is the last on the list.

Elthina. Yes. Of course. For years she watched as Meredith rampaged the Kirkwall and assaulted the mages. And did nothing. She saw it when Meredith hungered for power and acted as a viscount, successfully creating a tension in the city, when Meredith wiped the mages undeground and locked mages in their cells.

 
That's kind of her job.  If there is an organization dedicated to getting Mages out of the Circle, and it is her job as Knight Commander to keep them in the Circle...  Furthermore if such an organization were successful in getting Mages out of the Circle, would it not be her job to make such future successes as difficult as possible by, say, locking the Mages in their quarters.  Heck even ignoring the successful escapes and just focusing on the sheer number of blood mage lunatics we encounter it shows a remarkable degree of restraint she didn't have them all bolted to the wall 24/7.

Reikilea wrote...
Oh and the fact she was suspiciously quiet when Meredith has sent for the Right of Annulment, before the things went bad.

 
She wasn't quiet she said no.  Meredith came to her requesting a RoA she said no, exactly what is there to say?  She was likely unaware Meredith had gone directly to the Divine, or if she was aware was confident the Divine would consult her before saying Yes or No.  Do you honestly expect a public announcement every time the Grand Cleric turns down a request for a RoA?  What would be the point of that most common people probably aren't even aware of what an Annulment is.

Crier: Hear ye, Hear ye the Grand Cleric has refused the Knight Commander's request for an Annulment of the Circle.
Peasant1: What's an Annulment?
Peasant2: Probably some kind of tax thing.
Peasant1: Damn magickers, why should they get away with not paying taxes.
Peasant2: Yeah damn magickers, somebody should just wipe 'em out.
Peasant1: Well maybe the Knight Commander will ask.

Reikilea wrote...
Isabella is also to blame. Her action led to Quanari assaulting the city, which led into the death of the viscount, that led to Meredith taking his place and using it to squeeze the mages.

 
To be fair Meredith was squeezing the mages long before she took over the city.

Reikilea wrote...
Anders would leave with Karl and without him there templars would have invoked right of the annulment, wiping the mages somthing that would start the rebellion even without Anders.

Not really no.  Annulments happen, there have been 17 since the founding of the Circle, the mages have and would have continued to, take it in stride.  Without Anders little display the Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle (if it happened at all considering the fact she was keeping it from happening was one of his reasons for killing Elthina) wouldn't have been an event, it would have just been another Annulment.  The conversation would have gone like this

Mage1: Hey did you hear Kirkwall got Annuled.
Mage2: Really?  What for?
Mage1: Overrun with Bloodmages
Mage2: Well what can you expect from those Marchers
Mage1: Yeah damn Marchers.

Where as with Anders little show it goes like this
Mage1: Did you hear what happened in Kirkwall
Mage2: No what?
Mage1: Some lone lunatic blew up the Chantry, killing the Grand Cleric, and the Knight Commander called for an Annulment of the Circle.
Mage2: What?!  That's absurd the Circle wasn't involved.
Mage1: I know!  I even heard that the Champion...

Now eventually Anders would have found some other city (or stayed in Kirkwall) and pulled a similar stunt with or without Karl because Justice is still taking up residence and Anders still views the Circle as unjust.  Eventually Justice is going to compel him to do something about it.

Really there are only 3 factors of note in what happened.  Meredith, Elthina, and Anders.  We have Meredith, the person who built the bomb; Anders, the one who set it off; and Elthina, the one who saw it all happen, could have done something and didn't.  Place blame where you see fit.

[WhiteKnyght]

It's not the Grand Cleric's job to make sure the Templars do their job correctly. That's what the Seekers of Truth are for.

And at the time of Meredith's rampage, Lambert was in control of the Seekers. And he was as crooked as Meredith.

So it's Lambert's fault for letting Meredith run wild.

[Reikilea]

DPSSOC wrote...

That's kind of her job.  If there is an organization dedicated to getting Mages out of the Circle, and it is her job as Knight Commander to keep them in the Circle...  Furthermore if such an organization were successful in getting Mages out of the Circle, would it not be her job to make such future successes as difficult as possible by, say, locking the Mages in their quarters.  Heck even ignoring the successful escapes and just focusing on the sheer number of blood mage lunatics we encounter it shows a remarkable degree of restraint she didn't have them all bolted to the wall 24/7

Yes but Circle shoul not be a prison. If it is a prisong, it only natural mages would demand their freedom. What about inncocent ones, what about kids? She was doing her job, its clear she was, but her doing the job was actual dictatorship.

What public announcement. Why anyone would announce that they are going to kill of whole circle to the town hosting their families? I never spoke about public announcements. The fact is Meredith did send for the right, the fact Elthina didn´t even question it is way too suspicious. And ignorant. As I said eiether that, or she is the flattest characters in the game. 

Reikilea wrote...
Anders would leave with Karl and without him there templars would have invoked right of the annulment, wiping the mages something that would start the rebellion even without Anders.

Not really no.  Annulments happen, there have been 17 since the founding of the Circle, the mages have and would have continued to, take it in stride. 

That number worries me. Funny how easily you can get around with killing people. It´s like labour camps, right? That´s what they called it.

Really there are only 3 factors of note in what happened.  Meredith, Elthina, and Anders.  We have Meredith, the person who built the bomb; Anders, the one who set it off; and Elthina, the one who saw it all happen, could have done something and didn't.  Place blame where you see fit.

That I agree. Whole Kirkwall was a bomb. For me Anders action was inevitable. And completely obvious. It just had to happen. Still I think  if Karl survived, we should not underestimate his influence. It´s obvious Karl meant a lot to him, so he could keed justice at bay.

And Isabella just helped to maked the smoother way for all this to happen.

Modifié par Reikilea, 27 janvier 2013 - 11:25 .

[DPSSOC]

Reikilea wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
That's kind of her job.  If there is an organization dedicated to getting Mages out of the Circle, and it is her job as Knight Commander to keep them in the Circle...  Furthermore if such an organization were successful in getting Mages out of the Circle, would it not be her job to make such future successes as difficult as possible by, say, locking the Mages in their quarters.  Heck even ignoring the successful escapes and just focusing on the sheer number of blood mage lunatics we encounter it shows a remarkable degree of restraint she didn't have them all bolted to the wall 24/7

Yes but Circle shoul not be a prison. If it is a prisong, it only natural mages would demand their freedom. What about inncocent ones, what about kids? She was doing her job, its clear she was, but her doing the job was actual dictatorship.

No argument here, but you're criticizing Elthina for not giving Meredith crap about how she ran the Circle while completely ignoring why she was cracking down.  If nothing were happening, if Mages weren't breaking out and Blood Mages and abomination break outs weren't a weekly occurence you'd have a point, Meredith's measures were unwarranted, but when those problems exist, when it's your job to keep them from happening, you have two choices, lock them up tighter or kill them.

Reikilea wrote...
What public announcement. Why anyone would announce that they are going to kill of whole circle to the town hosting their families? I never spoke about public announcements. The fact is Meredith did send for the right, the fact Elthina didn´t even question it is way too suspicious. And ignorant. As I said eiether that, or she is the flattest characters in the game.

Ok brief look at how post worked back in those days.  You'd write a letter and then pay a private courier to carry it either by horse or carrier pigeon.  Unless Elthina was having Meredith spied on she wouldn't have known that Meredith sent a letter, much less who she'd sent it too.  We know Meredith has called for the RoA and gone to the Divine because of the people we talk to and the places we go, the only Templar Elthina likely deals with is Meredith.

Reikilea wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Reikilea wrote...
Anders would leave with Karl and without him there templars would have invoked right of the annulment, wiping the mages something that would start the rebellion even without Anders.

Not really no.  Annulments happen, there have been 17 since the founding of the Circle, the mages have and would have continued to, take it in stride.

 

That number worries me. Funny how easily you can get around with killing people. It´s like labour camps, right? That´s what they called it.

It's not easy, it's marching an army of Templars into a fortress.  It's likely something the Mages agreed to along with the Rite of Tranquility when the Circles were formed.  If a Circle gets to the point it's beyond saving (and we see in DA:O what it took for it to be considered that) the Templars march in and clean house.  We have no evidence that many or even any Annulments like Meredith's have been called in the past they're probably more often than not justified (Demons and Abominations running wild).

Reikilea wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Really there are only 3 factors of note in what happened.  Meredith, Elthina, and Anders.  We have Meredith, the person who built the bomb; Anders, the one who set it off; and Elthina, the one who saw it all happen, could have done something and didn't.  Place blame where you see fit.

That I agree. Whole Kirkwall was a bomb. For me Anders action was inevitable. And completely obvious. It just had to happen. Still I think  if Karl survived, we should not underestimate his influence. It´s obvious Karl meant a lot to him, so he could keed justice at bay.

 
Debatable.  Even if romancing Hawke Anders has more and more trouble keeping Justice at bay.  "Wuv" is not enough to stop him, he's an enraged spirit.  Not to mention I'm not entirely convinced this isn't a fight Anders wants.  Anders says it himself he's always hated the Templars, with or without Karl Justice gives him the power to do something about it, to strike back.  He's terrified of it now but eventually letting Justice out won't scare him as much.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 27 janvier 2013 - 11:51 .

[dragonflight288]

No argument here, but you're criticizing Elthina for not giving Meredith crap about how she ran the Circle while completely ignoring why she was cracking down. If nothing were happening, if Mages weren't breaking out and Blood Mages and abomination break outs weren't a weekly occurence you'd have a point, Meredith's measures were unwarranted, but when those problems exist, when it's your job to keep them from happening, you have two choices, lock them up tighter or kill them.

I can understand that situation may have limited the perceptions of what Meredith was supposed to do, but I'd like to look at confirmed blood mages throughout DAII. Not rogue mages, but blood mages.

Act 1:

Decimus: Absolute idiot who couldn't tell a mage, a dalish elf, an escaped slave, and a dwarf from templars. Him raising the dead wasn't a blood magic spell, but that spell belongs to the school of spirit. It's called Animate Dead. It was one of my mage warden's favorite spells.

Tarohne: Insane Mage supremist.

That blood mage prostitute whose name I can't remember: worked for Tarohne.

Merrill: Sweetest thing ever! Has a philosophy of playing demons before they play you. Very sarcastic, but funny. Easy to miss the sarcasm.

Act 2:

Hadrianna: Tevinter magister apprentice, never belonged to Kirkwall.

Quentin: Driven mad by grief over the death of his wife, and became a serial killer. Said to come from Starkhaven.

DuPuis: Former apprentice of Quentin and a noble. Most likely used his wealth and influence to stay out of the circle.

That makes up all the blood mages that I can remember in the first two acts. The timeline in meeting them is 4-5 years in a single location. My warden faced more blood mages in one year during the blight than Hawke did in five years in Kirkwall. It's obvious Kirkwall doesn't really have a blood mage problem until Act 3.

It's after Meredith takes power and starts cracking down on mages constantly that the blood mages start popping up everywhere.

The problem didn't really start until Meredith became the unofficial viscount. I don't think that's a coincidence. Therefore, we can see there is a darn good chance that the link between the blood mage problem is connected to the templar abuse of power, or overreach of political power in the case of Meredith, and extreme paranoia. Meredith's cracking down and paranoia about blood mages created a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The harder she pushed, the more they resisted, and the more they resisted, the harder she pushed.

[TEWR]

Absolute idiot who couldn't tell a mage, a dalish elf, an escaped slave, and a dwarf from templars. Him raising the dead wasn't a blood magic spell, but that spell belongs to the school of spirit. It's called Animate Dead. It was one of my mage warden's favorite spells.

I view him as a hero, myself. I take issue with his idiocy regarding Hawke, but given what he was doing I think he was a hero. But that could be because I just like his hair when it whooshes around. It's all wavey.

And there is a blood magic spell that raises the dead. It binds a Demon to the corpse. Though Decimus didn't seem to use blood magic in that cutscene -- but in battle and through Grace's "all he had to teach" he was one. Never mind, just rewatched it and there's a bit of a blood aura going on.

But it does bring up an interesting question: If one were to use Animate Dead, would the Templars recognize the distinction between it and the blood magic spell? Would Mages? Would anyone? 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 janvier 2013 - 04:47 .

[IanPolaris]

dragonflight288 wrote...

That blood mage prostitute whose name I can't remember: worked for Tarohne.

Here name was (supposedly): Idunna, the "exotic wonder" from the east (more commonly known as "that tramp from Darktown")

-Polaris

[TEWR]

There's also an apostate gang leader in Act 1 I believe that's a blood mage.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Absolute idiot who couldn't tell a mage, a dalish elf, an escaped slave, and a dwarf from templars. Him raising the dead wasn't a blood magic spell, but that spell belongs to the school of spirit. It's called Animate Dead. It was one of my mage warden's favorite spells.

I view him as a hero, myself. I take issue with his idiocy regarding Hawke, but given what he was doing I think he was a hero. But that could be because I just like his hair when it whooshes around. It's all wavey.

And there is a blood magic spell that raises the dead. It binds a Demon to the corpse. Though Decimus didn't seem to use blood magic in that cutscene -- but in battle and through Grace's "all he had to teach" he was one.

But it does bring up an interesting question: If one were to use Animate Dead, would the Templars recognize the distinction between it and the blood magic spell? Would Mages? Would anyone? 

I normally tend to agree with you, but not here.  Decimus was an idiot and a terrorist.  Even Anders called him an idiot for attacking before he even said hello.  The problem with Decimus is that he basically burned all his bridges and made it difficult even for those that otherwise might agree with him (like Anders) to side with him.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

There's also an apostate gang leader in Act 1 I believe that's a blood mage.

Leech, the Gang Leader of the Red Water Marauders (Act I Docks) is a bloodmage.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 28 janvier 2013 - 04:01 .

[TEWR]

It's likely something the Mages agreed to along with the Rite of Tranquility when the Circles were formed

Not really. The RoA was issued as something the Templars could do after an incident at a Nevarran Circle many, many years after the Circles were formed.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

I normally tend to agree with you, but not here.  Decimus was an idiot and a terrorist.  Even Anders called him an idiot for attacking before he even said hello.

I'm not denying he's an idiot towards Hawke -- mostly because Bioware just wants to do "LOL Insane Mages play important roles" -- but rather that beyond that, what he was trying to do -- protect his people -- is why I view him as a hero.

Didn't go about it the best way, but meh, I still view him as a hero of sorts. Very misguided, but a hero.

But like I said, could just be my admiration of the scene where his hair goes whoosh.  

Leech, the Gang Leader of the Red Water Marauders (Act I Docks) is a bloodmage

Ah yes, that was his name. Fitting.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 janvier 2013 - 04:14 .

[dragonflight288]

Oh yeah. Thanks for reminding me of Leech.

But still, my Warden faced more blood mages during the year he fought the blight than Hawke did in five years at Kirkwall.

[Festilence]

Not by herself, the whole situation that progresses between Mages and Templars is clearly due to a combination of things but perhaps she was one of them. At the same time, I wouldn't class her as anything less than a victim of the situation.

Elthina comes across as a very "on the fence" character when it comes to the Mages vs Templars situation and it makes it all the more interesting. Her position is understandable to a degree but it feels like it contributed to what Anders did, as he makes clear, he feels the lack of action from the Chantry makes it worthless and he feels the Circle doesn't work (not that it justifies murdering her in my opinion).

Modifié par Festilence, 30 janvier 2013 - 09:28 .

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

Yes but Circle shoul not be a prison. If it is a prisong, it only natural mages would demand their freedom. What about inncocent ones, what about kids? She was doing her job, its clear she was, but her doing the job was actual dictatorship.

No argument here, but you're criticizing Elthina for not giving Meredith crap about how she ran the Circle while completely ignoring why she was cracking down.  If nothing were happening, if Mages weren't breaking out and Blood Mages and abomination break outs weren't a weekly occurence you'd have a point, Meredith's measures were unwarranted, but when those problems exist, when it's your job to keep them from happening, you have two choices, lock them up tighter or kill them.

Considering that we know some Kirkwall Circle mages were being tortured, raped, made tranquil illegally, and killed, I can see why some mages would turn to blood magic - the only school of magic that can't be nulified by templars.

DPSSOC wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

What public announcement. Why anyone would announce that they are going to kill of whole circle to the town hosting their families? I never spoke about public announcements. The fact is Meredith did send for the right, the fact Elthina didn´t even question it is way too suspicious. And ignorant. As I said eiether that, or she is the flattest characters in the game.

Ok brief look at how post worked back in those days.  You'd write a letter and then pay a private courier to carry it either by horse or carrier pigeon.  Unless Elthina was having Meredith spied on she wouldn't have known that Meredith sent a letter, much less who she'd sent it too.  We know Meredith has called for the RoA and gone to the Divine because of the people we talk to and the places we go, the only Templar Elthina likely deals with is Meredith.

We know that Meredith illegally seized power over Kirkwall. We know she installed her templars in the Viscount's Keep. We know she was trying to usurp control over the City Guard. We know Meredith had a death squad of her templars killing people in broad daylight. I think there were plenty of reasons for Meredith's superior - Elthina - to step in and exercise her authority. If Elthina wasn't competent enough to do her job, then she shouldn't have been Grand Cleric to begin with.

DPSSOC wrote...

Reikilea wrote...  

That number worries me. Funny how easily you can get around with killing people. It´s like labour camps, right? That´s what they called it.

It's not easy, it's marching an army of Templars into a fortress.  It's likely something the Mages agreed to along with the Rite of Tranquility when the Circles were formed.  If a Circle gets to the point it's beyond saving (and we see in DA:O what it took for it to be considered that) the Templars march in and clean house.  We have no evidence that many or even any Annulments like Meredith's have been called in the past they're probably more often than not justified (Demons and Abominations running wild).

We honestly don't know if any of the Rights were justified.

DPSSOC wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

That I agree. Whole Kirkwall was a bomb. For me Anders action was inevitable. And completely obvious. It just had to happen. Still I think  if Karl survived, we should not underestimate his influence. It´s obvious Karl meant a lot to him, so he could keed justice at bay.

 
Debatable.  Even if romancing Hawke Anders has more and more trouble keeping Justice at bay.  "Wuv" is not enough to stop him, he's an enraged spirit.  Not to mention I'm not entirely convinced this isn't a fight Anders wants.  Anders says it himself he's always hated the Templars, with or without Karl Justice gives him the power to do something about it, to strike back.  He's terrified of it now but eventually letting Justice out won't scare him as much.

Hawke's friendship with Anders is enough to stop Anders from hurting Ella, so it is debatable. We also know Anders and Karl were in communication through letters for some time, and that Karl's warnings about how awful the Circle of Kirkwall was were the reason why Anders went to the city-state in the first place; it likely played a role in Justice and Anders merging together. Anders becomes a part of the mage underground after Karl's death, which seems to spur him on the path. If Karl lived, it's possible Anders never would have become part of the mage underground.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Reikilea wrote...
Yes but Circle shoul not be a prison. If it is a prisong, it only natural mages would demand their freedom. What about inncocent ones, what about kids? She was doing her job, its clear she was, but her doing the job was actual dictatorship.

No argument here, but you're criticizing Elthina for not giving Meredith crap about how she ran the Circle while completely ignoring why she was cracking down.  If nothing were happening, if Mages weren't breaking out and Blood Mages and abomination break outs weren't a weekly occurence you'd have a point, Meredith's measures were unwarranted, but when those problems exist, when it's your job to keep them from happening, you have two choices, lock them up tighter or kill them.

Considering that we know some Kirkwall Circle mages were being tortured, raped, made tranquil illegally, and killed, I can see why some mages would turn to blood magic - the only school of magic that can't be nulified by templars.

I can understand why people do a lot of things, but simply having reason to do something does not make it right.

LobselVith8 wrote...
We know that Meredith illegally seized power over Kirkwall. We know she installed her templars in the Viscount's Keep. We know she was trying to usurp control over the City Guard. We know Meredith had a death squad of her templars killing people in broad daylight. I think there were plenty of reasons for Meredith's superior - Elthina - to step in and exercise her authority. If Elthina wasn't competent enough to do her job, then she shouldn't have been Grand Cleric to begin with.

By that time it's too late, and if we're being honest it's probably too late by the beginning of Act 1.  Elthina has authourity, but no real power, if the Templars refuse to side with her she has no means of forcing Meredith to do as she says.  Even as early as Act 1 we have evidence that Meredith has stacked the Templars, particularly the upper ranks, with like minded individuals.  While she may not have done this intending to oppose Elthina it puts her in an advantageous position.  By the time Meredith becomes a problem Elthina can't do anything because at best the Templars will split 50/50, she needs a strong majority to overpower Meredith's supporters and force Meredith to comply should she refuse to comply and become violent (likely given her mental state in Act 3).

It's a case of the soldiers feeling they owe their allegiance to their general rather than their ruler.

LobselVith8 wrote...
We honestly don't know if any of the Rights were justified.

Well we do know one was, Fereldan.  Considering the manpower it takes to overpower an entire Circle and completely wipe them out I doubt it's something they call on a whim.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke's friendship with Anders is enough to stop Anders from hurting Ella, so it is debatable.

 
Yes but it wasn't enough to stop the end game.  Even Hawke romancing Anders isn't enough to stop that.

LobselVith8 wrote...
We also know Anders and Karl were in communication through letters for some time, and that Karl's warnings about how awful the Circle of Kirkwall was were the reason why Anders went to the city-state in the first place; it likely played a role in Justice and Anders merging together. Anders becomes a part of the mage underground after Karl's death, which seems to spur him on the path. If Karl lived, it's possible Anders never would have become part of the mage underground.

I don't disagree that Karl could and probably would have delayed it I just don't think anything could have stopped it.  As long as Anders views the Circles as an injustice (so until the day he dies) Justice is going to push him to do something about it.  Justice is tireless, Anders is not, it's not a matter of if he'll lose that fight it's when.

[TEWR]

Elthina has authourity, but no real power, if the Templars refuse to side with her she has no means of forcing Meredith to do as she says.

We actually see some Templars obeying Elthina's orders over Meredith's in the opening of Act 3. True, it's only two, but even so I imagine Knight-Captain Cullen, Thrask, the Templars under Thrask's command in his rebellion, and the Mages of course would follow her when trying to oust Meredith from her power.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
We actually see some Templars obeying Elthina's orders over Meredith's in the opening of Act 3. True, it's only two, but even so I imagine Knight-Captain Cullen, Thrask, the Templars under Thrask's command in his rebellion, and the Mages of course would follow her when trying to oust Meredith from her power.

Which would still lead to mages; many of them empowered by blood magic which, inevitably means demons; and templars fighting in the streets of Kirkwall which is exactly what she Elthina wished to avoid.
And if they won, what if the remaining templar forces would not be enough to stop the mages from evading capture, or even worse, taking control of the city? Then the Divine is likely to call an Exhalted March.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 janvier 2013 - 07:10 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
We actually see some Templars obeying Elthina's orders over Meredith's in the opening of Act 3. True, it's only two, but even so I imagine Knight-Captain Cullen, Thrask, the Templars under Thrask's command in his rebellion, and the Mages of course would follow her when trying to oust Meredith from her power.

Which would still lead to mages; many of them empowered by blood magic which, inevitably means demons; and templars fighting in the streets of Kirkwall which is exactly what she Elthina wished to avoid.
And if they won, what if the remaining templar forces would not be enough to stop the mages from evading capture, or even worse, taking control of the city? Then the Divine is likely to call an Exhalted March.

If Elthina had a gram of sense, and assuming you are right (an assumption I don't grant btw), all Elthina would have to do is tell the Divine through Sister Nightengale that Meredith is the problem.  There is no way that Meredith would retain ANY Templar support if the Divine shipped in a replacement.  Not prior to Asunder anyway.

For that matter, I fault Lelianna as well.  Five minutes of any investigation should have told "Sister Nightengale" that Meredith's blatent and illegal usurpation of the Viscount's seat was the key log to the increasing tensions....but it takes the Seekers another 3 years + to finally start to figure it out.

The Seekers and Lels are incompetant.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

Except Meredith was not the sole problem. The number of blood mages and abominations constantly threatening the city blurs the issue.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Which would still lead to mages; many of them empowered by blood magic which, inevitably means demons; and templars fighting in the streets of Kirkwall which is exactly what she Elthina wished to avoid.

Well, we'd need to get rid of Plot Stupidity Grace first. Get rid of her, the other blood mages might stop. If not, remove them too. 

Also, just do some fighting in the Gallows. Or better yet Elthina could send in a legion of Templars under Thrask's and Cullen's command, accompanied by a select group of Mages, to confine Meredith to her chambers until the Divine sends in a replacement. At which point Meredith would be shipped to Val Royeaux to face the equivalent of a court martial.

Gonna be hard for Meredith to take down dozens of Templars, accompanied by Mages, all on her own -- especially those that support the Circle and Chantry and are under Elthina's strict orders to do such a thing. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 janvier 2013 - 08:37 .