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Elthina - Is She To Blame?


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#201
TEWR

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MisterJB wrote...

Except Meredith was not the sole problem. The number of blood mages and abominations constantly threatening the city blurs the issue.


Sole problem? No, the Resolutionists were certainly exacerbating the issues. Primary problem? Certainly. Everything Meredith did was the root cause of the chaos of Kirkwall. The Resolutionists either wanted to use this to their perceived advantage or were responding to it because it was affecting them.

MisterJB wrote...

Which would still lead to mages; many of them empowered by blood magic which, inevitably means demons; and templars fighting in the streets of Kirkwall which is exactly what she Elthina wished to avoid.


Well, we'd need to get rid of Plot Stupidity Grace first. Get rid of her, the other blood mages might stop. If not, remove them too.

Also, just do some fighting in the Gallows. Or better yet Elthina could send in a legion of Templars under Thrask's and Cullen's command, accompanied by a select group of Mages, to confine Meredith to her chambers until the Divine sends in a replacement. At which point Meredith would be shipped to Val Royeaux to face the equivalent of a court martial.

Gonna be hard for Meredith to take down dozens of Templars, accompanied by Mages, all on her own -- especially those that support the Circle and Chantry and are under Elthina's strict orders to do such a thing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 janvier 2013 - 08:41 .


#202
LobselVith8

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[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that we know some Kirkwall Circle mages were being tortured, raped, made tranquil illegally, and killed, I can see why some mages would turn to blood magic - the only school of magic that can't be nulified by templars.[/quote]

I can understand why people do a lot of things, but simply having reason to do something does not make it right. [/quote]

It certainly doesn't make the mages wrong to defend themselves against the likes of Karras and Alrik with the only school of magic that the templars can't shut down with their abilities.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We know that Meredith illegally seized power over Kirkwall. We know she installed her templars in the Viscount's Keep. We know she was trying to usurp control over the City Guard. We know Meredith had a death squad of her templars killing people in broad daylight. I think there were plenty of reasons for Meredith's superior - Elthina - to step in and exercise her authority. If Elthina wasn't competent enough to do her job, then she shouldn't have been Grand Cleric to begin with.[/quote]

By that time it's too late, and if we're being honest it's probably too late by the beginning of Act 1.  Elthina has authourity, but no real power, if the Templars refuse to side with her she has no means of forcing Meredith to do as she says.  [/quote]

I respectfully disagree. The Grand Cleric has the authority of her position, and I blame Elthina if she didn't exorcise her authority when Meredith continued to violate the law and cause unrest in Kirkwall. Elthina is Meredith's superior, she's very popular among the people, and the Chantry controls the lyrium supply that the templars are addicted to. If Elthina refused to do her job, then I see it as a serious problem. We see the templars immediately obey Elthina at the beginning of Act III, bow to her in a sign of respect, and immediately obey her order to escort Orsino to the Gallows "gently", while none of the templars bother to wait while Meredith is still causing a scene because she thinks Orsino should be brought back to the Gallows in shackles.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

Even as early as Act 1 we have evidence that Meredith has stacked the Templars, particularly the upper ranks, with like minded individuals.  While she may not have done this intending to oppose Elthina it puts her in an advantageous position.  By the time Meredith becomes a problem Elthina can't do anything because at best the Templars will split 50/50, she needs a strong majority to overpower Meredith's supporters and force Meredith to comply should she refuse to comply and become violent (likely given her mental state in Act 3). [/quote]

And how many of those "like minded individuals" would have obeyed Meredith if Elthina put a stop to Meredith seizing control and becoming the de facto Viscount, as well as to the Knight-Commander's death squad killing people in broad daylight and her attempts to cement control over the City Guard? Elthina could have asked for assistance from the Divine, which doesn't seem to be the case since "Sister Nightingale" had no idea what was the cause behind the unrest in Kirkwall.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

It's a case of the soldiers feeling they owe their allegiance to their general rather than their ruler. [/quote]

Considering the Chantry controls the lyrium supply, I'm not so certain the templars would defy the Grand Cleric and the Chantry if they were told to stop crossing the line.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We honestly don't know if any of the Rights were justified.[/quote]

Well we do know one was, Fereldan.  Considering the manpower it takes to overpower an entire Circle and completely wipe them out I doubt it's something they call on a whim. [/quote]

Except the Right of Annulment for the Circle of Ferelden can be called off, with the support of The Warden and First Enchanter Irving. For the Rights that transpired in the past, we don't know if they were justified, or if they were as baseless as Meredith's Right of Annulment on the Circle of Kirkwall.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke's friendship with Anders is enough to stop Anders from hurting Ella, so it is debatable.[/quote]
 
Yes but it wasn't enough to stop the end game.  Even Hawke romancing Anders isn't enough to stop that. [/quote]

Yet it's enough for Anders to accept execution at Hawke's hands if the Champion deems it necessary, or even to side with pro-templar Hawke in killing an entire population of innocent people.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We also know Anders and Karl were in communication through letters for some time, and that Karl's warnings about how awful the Circle of Kirkwall was were the reason why Anders went to the city-state in the first place; it likely played a role in Justice and Anders merging together. Anders becomes a part of the mage underground after Karl's death, which seems to spur him on the path. If Karl lived, it's possible Anders never would have become part of the mage underground.[/quote]

I don't disagree that Karl could and probably would have delayed it I just don't think anything could have stopped it.  As long as Anders views the Circles as an injustice (so until the day he dies) Justice is going to push him to do something about it.  Justice is tireless, Anders is not, it's not a matter of if he'll lose that fight it's when.[/quote]

Except Anders wasn't participating in the mage underground until after Karl's death, so he may have continued to heal the sick and the destitute who had no one else to turn to. We can't really say for certain. Karl's unlawful tranquility seemed to put everything into motion.

#203
DPSSOC

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[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
I can understand why people do a lot of things, but simply having reason to do something does not make it right. [/quote]

It certainly doesn't make the mages wrong to defend themselves against the likes of Karras and Alrik with the only school of magic that the templars can't shut down with their abilities.[/quote]

Certainly, however there comes a point when the use of a weapon can no longer be justified by simply being the most effective.  I feel the mages cross that line around about Best Served Cold.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
By that time it's too late, and if we're being honest it's probably too late by the beginning of Act 1.  Elthina has authourity, but no real power, if the Templars refuse to side with her she has no means of forcing Meredith to do as she says.  [/quote]

I respectfully disagree. The Grand Cleric has the authority of her position, and I blame Elthina if she didn't exorcise her authority when Meredith continued to violate the law and cause unrest in Kirkwall. Elthina is Meredith's superior, she's very popular among the people, and the Chantry controls the lyrium supply that the templars are addicted to. If Elthina refused to do her job, then I see it as a serious problem. We see the templars immediately obey Elthina at the beginning of Act III, bow to her in a sign of respect, and immediately obey her order to escort Orsino to the Gallows "gently", while none of the templars bother to wait while Meredith is still causing a scene because she thinks Orsino should be brought back to the Gallows in shackles.[/quote]

Yes as I said Elthina had authourity, but if Meredith ever decided not to do as she was told what can Elthina do?  The Templars obey her but they aren't being asked to act against Meredith directly yet.  Elthina gives them a less severe variant of Meredith's order, not a direct contradiction.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Even as early as Act 1 we have evidence that Meredith has stacked the Templars, particularly the upper ranks, with like minded individuals.  While she may not have done this intending to oppose Elthina it puts her in an advantageous position.  By the time Meredith becomes a problem Elthina can't do anything because at best the Templars will split 50/50, she needs a strong majority to overpower Meredith's supporters and force Meredith to comply should she refuse to comply and become violent (likely given her mental state in Act 3). [/quote]

And how many of those "like minded individuals" would have obeyed Meredith if Elthina put a stop to Meredith seizing control and becoming the de facto Viscount, as well as to the Knight-Commander's death squad killing people in broad daylight and her attempts to cement control over the City Guard?[/quote]
 
Most of them.  If Meredith cried out "The Grand Cleric has fallen prey to the Blood Mages!" do you really think men like Karras or Alrik would hesitate.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Elthina could have asked for assistance from the Divine, which doesn't seem to be the case since "Sister Nightingale" had no idea what was the cause behind the unrest in Kirkwall.[/quote]

Perhaps after the events at the start of Act 3 she does send for help and it just didn't get there in time, or perhaps she still believed she could get the situation under control, or she felt that after the threat of an Exalted March any confirmation that things had gotten out of control would just result in making it a certainty.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
It's a case of the soldiers feeling they owe their allegiance to their general rather than their ruler. [/quote]

Considering the Chantry controls the lyrium supply, I'm not so certain the templars would defy the Grand Cleric and the Chantry if they were told to stop crossing the line.[/quote]

Somehow I don't see the unarmed clergy keeping the drug addicts with swords from getting their fix for long.  All it would take is for Meredith to send a squad of loyal Templars (heck 2 could probably do it) to secure the warehouse where the lyrium is stored, not to mention there are probably stockpiles in the Gallows.  I kind of doubt the Templars are given no more than their daily requirement of lyrium every morning, this is not the Dominion we're dealing with.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Well we do know one was, Fereldan.  Considering the manpower it takes to overpower an entire Circle and completely wipe them out I doubt it's something they call on a whim. [/quote]

Except the Right of Annulment for the Circle of Ferelden can be called off, with the support of The Warden and First Enchanter Irving. For the Rights that transpired in the past, we don't know if they were justified, or if they were as baseless as Meredith's Right of Annulment on the Circle of Kirkwall.[/quote]

Yes but we do know that given the situation the Circle good well have been considered beyond saving, heck without the arrival of the Warden it probably would have been.

#204
LobselVith8

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[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It certainly doesn't make the mages wrong to defend themselves against the likes of Karras and Alrik with the only school of magic that the templars can't shut down with their abilities.[/quote]

Certainly, however there comes a point when the use of a weapon can no longer be justified by simply being the most effective.  I feel the mages cross that line around about Best Served Cold. [/quote]

Rebel mages and templars attacking a pro-mage Hawke who publicly opposed Meredith didn't even make sense in "Best Served Cold". Neither did Grace attacking the Champion for helping her escape.

Insane and stupid mages aren't really much of an argument against using blood magic.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I respectfully disagree. The Grand Cleric has the authority of her position, and I blame Elthina if she didn't exorcise her authority when Meredith continued to violate the law and cause unrest in Kirkwall. Elthina is Meredith's superior, she's very popular among the people, and the Chantry controls the lyrium supply that the templars are addicted to. If Elthina refused to do her job, then I see it as a serious problem. We see the templars immediately obey Elthina at the beginning of Act III, bow to her in a sign of respect, and immediately obey her order to escort Orsino to the Gallows "gently", while none of the templars bother to wait while Meredith is still causing a scene because she thinks Orsino should be brought back to the Gallows in shackles.[/quote]

Yes as I said Elthina had authourity, but if Meredith ever decided not to do as she was told what can Elthina do?  The Templars obey her but they aren't being asked to act against Meredith directly yet.  Elthina gives them a less severe variant of Meredith's order, not a direct contradiction. [/quote]

Elthina never even tried. If she wasn't capable of doing her job, she shouldn't have stayed on as Grand Cleric. In that scene, Elthina gave the templars an order, which they obeyed after showing her a sign of respect, while Meredith screamed and ranted that she thought Orsino should be brought back in chains, and Elthina told her to behave like a "good girl" in response. Meredith also seemed overly concerned that Orsino was heading to speak with Elthina about Meredith's behavior, which is ridiculous considering that Meredith has already violated the law by holding political power and having a death squad murder people in broad daylight.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And how many of those "like minded individuals" would have obeyed Meredith if Elthina put a stop to Meredith seizing control and becoming the de facto Viscount, as well as to the Knight-Commander's death squad killing people in broad daylight and her attempts to cement control over the City Guard?[/quote]
 
Most of them.  If Meredith cried out "The Grand Cleric has fallen prey to the Blood Mages!" do you really think men like Karras or Alrik would hesitate. [/quote]

Funny, I remember all of them defying Meredith to follow Cullen's example when she said precisely that about the Knight-Captain.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Elthina could have asked for assistance from the Divine, which doesn't seem to be the case since "Sister Nightingale" had no idea what was the cause behind the unrest in Kirkwall.[/quote]

Perhaps after the events at the start of Act 3 she does send for help and it just didn't get there in time, or perhaps she still believed she could get the situation under control, or she felt that after the threat of an Exalted March any confirmation that things had gotten out of control would just result in making it a certainty. [/quote]

There's no evidence Elthina did anything except be incompetent about the situation.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the Chantry controls the lyrium supply, I'm not so certain the templars would defy the Grand Cleric and the Chantry if they were told to stop crossing the line.[/quote]

Somehow I don't see the unarmed clergy keeping the drug addicts with swords from getting their fix for long.  All it would take is for Meredith to send a squad of loyal Templars (heck 2 could probably do it) to secure the warehouse where the lyrium is stored, not to mention there are probably stockpiles in the Gallows.  I kind of doubt the Templars are given no more than their daily requirement of lyrium every morning, this is not the Dominion we're dealing with. [/quote]

Which would risk an Exalted March by the Divine, not to mention the insurrection that would follow if Meredith decided to seize power from the Chantry.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the Right of Annulment for the Circle of Ferelden can be called off, with the support of The Warden and First Enchanter Irving. For the Rights that transpired in the past, we don't know if they were justified, or if they were as baseless as Meredith's Right of Annulment on the Circle of Kirkwall.[/quote]

Yes but we do know that given the situation the Circle good well have been considered beyond saving, heck without the arrival of the Warden it probably would have been. [/quote]

Which leaves me back to the fact that we really don't know, one way or another.

#205
Alistair doll

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Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Look at it this way - A lot of Players felt that Hawke was put into a moronic position, forced to choose one side over the other when both sides had their failings and both sides had their share of blame. Between the increasing insanity of Meredith and the Blood Mages running rampant in the streets, it was quite obvious to Players that both sides were going loopy - A lot of Players just didn't want to get involved.

Having stood in Hawke's shoes(so to speak) I can safely say I would continue to claim neutrality for as long as humanly possible, because there was no way in the Nine Hells I was ever going to make the situation better.

Elthina was in the same boat - People claim she had a position of power, but the situation in Kirkwall was far beyond control. There was no possible way to police both sides of the conflict, and to support one side would mean supporting failures that were unacceptable.

Support Meredith and her Templars? Support Meredith's insanity to oppress the Circle.
Support Orsino and the Circle? Support the countless misuses of magic that have plagued Kirkwall for years.

We've been in Elthina's shoes and quite a few of us were happy to sit in neutrality until a choice was forced down our throats.


This. My character was a mage (and i myself support the idea of liberation and freedom, so yea) thus i tended to support mages all the time. However, all the ridiculous plot turns e.g Grace suddenly turning nuts and going "Im going to kill you for killing decimus a few years back, totally ignoring the fact that you actually saved my life and that you actually are on the same side as me". which was illogical and ridiculous in my opinion. All those made me retreat back to the neutral side, because it seemed that supporting either side would immediately unleash a war.

Same for our ol' Elthina there. She probably was waiting for some miracle to happen, because she couldnt side with anyone. (though she could have done some stuff like appointing thrask to a position of higher authority, but does she even know anyone else besides meredith anyway? :?)

#206
dragonflight288

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Alistair doll wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Look at it this way - A lot of Players felt that Hawke was put into a moronic position, forced to choose one side over the other when both sides had their failings and both sides had their share of blame. Between the increasing insanity of Meredith and the Blood Mages running rampant in the streets, it was quite obvious to Players that both sides were going loopy - A lot of Players just didn't want to get involved.

Having stood in Hawke's shoes(so to speak) I can safely say I would continue to claim neutrality for as long as humanly possible, because there was no way in the Nine Hells I was ever going to make the situation better.

Elthina was in the same boat - People claim she had a position of power, but the situation in Kirkwall was far beyond control. There was no possible way to police both sides of the conflict, and to support one side would mean supporting failures that were unacceptable.

Support Meredith and her Templars? Support Meredith's insanity to oppress the Circle.
Support Orsino and the Circle? Support the countless misuses of magic that have plagued Kirkwall for years.

We've been in Elthina's shoes and quite a few of us were happy to sit in neutrality until a choice was forced down our throats.


This. My character was a mage (and i myself support the idea of liberation and freedom, so yea) thus i tended to support mages all the time. However, all the ridiculous plot turns e.g Grace suddenly turning nuts and going "Im going to kill you for killing decimus a few years back, totally ignoring the fact that you actually saved my life and that you actually are on the same side as me". which was illogical and ridiculous in my opinion. All those made me retreat back to the neutral side, because it seemed that supporting either side would immediately unleash a war.

Same for our ol' Elthina there. She probably was waiting for some miracle to happen, because she couldnt side with anyone. (though she could have done some stuff like appointing thrask to a position of higher authority, but does she even know anyone else besides meredith anyway? :?)


Hmm. I expect many of us in Western Civilizationfully expect the Hero's Journey archetype when playing Dragon Age as that's exactly what we had in Origins. I think Hawke's journey is just as epic, but in a more inward way than the Warden's. Hawke follows the Heroine's journey.

Here's an article I read that discusses this at length, and after reading and thinking of it, actually made me think Hawke follows this archetype very well, and actually increased my enjoyment of the game.

gamasutra.com/blogs/LaraCrigger/20120521/170722/Walking_the_Heroines_Journey_How_Dragon_Age_2_Follows_An_OldBut_Often_OverlookedStorytelling_Archetype.php

#207
Plaintiff

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Have I posted here? Oh well.

I think Elthina is absolutely culpable. The Templars had been overstepping their bounds and involving themselves in mundane politics long before Hawke and friends even came to Kirkwall. Elthina should've nipped it in the bud then, but she didn't, whether it was out of laziness or cowardice or apathy.

Her "mediations" between Meredith and Orsino were pathetic. They always resulted in Orsino being forced to grant Meredith concessions (albeit less than she was demanding). Elthina had the authority to shut Meredith down definitively and she didn't do it. It's inexcusable.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 février 2013 - 07:54 .


#208
Rinshikai10

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Plaintiff wrote...

Have I posted here? Oh well.

I think Elthina is absolutely culpable. The Templars had been overstepping their bounds and involving themselves in mundane politics long before Hawke and friends even came to Kirkwall. Elthina should've nipped it in the bud then, but she didn't, whether it was out of laziness or cowardice or apathy.

Her "mediations" between Meredith and Orsino were pathetic. They always resulted in Orsino being forced to grant Meredith concessions (albeit less than she was demanding). Elthina had the authority to shut Meredith down definitively and she didn't do it. It's inexcusable.


I agree with you fully Plaintiff, this problem should have be nipped in the bud.

#209
IanPolaris

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Rinshikai10 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Have I posted here? Oh well.

I think Elthina is absolutely culpable. The Templars had been overstepping their bounds and involving themselves in mundane politics long before Hawke and friends even came to Kirkwall. Elthina should've nipped it in the bud then, but she didn't, whether it was out of laziness or cowardice or apathy.

Her "mediations" between Meredith and Orsino were pathetic. They always resulted in Orsino being forced to grant Meredith concessions (albeit less than she was demanding). Elthina had the authority to shut Meredith down definitively and she didn't do it. It's inexcusable.


I agree with you fully Plaintiff, this problem should have be nipped in the bud.


The bottom line is that Elthina is completely incapable of acting as the politician and ruler she has to be as Grand Cleric.  Given the secular power of the Chantry, promoting someone like Elthina to that spot and keeping her there as long as she was is simply inexusable (and there were lots of warning signs for the Divine).  Elthina would make a terrific Revered Mother of a Village and perhaps later on as a confessor/assistant to the Divine at a major cathedral.  She is a good priestess.  She is a lousy ruler and the position demanded a strong ruler.

-Polaris

#210
Helios969

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Plenty of blame to go around. While Elthina was ineffectual, if we blew up every building with inept people present the human race would be extinct.

#211
IanPolaris

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Helios969 wrote...

Plenty of blame to go around. While Elthina was ineffectual, if we blew up every building with inept people present the human race would be extinct.


Oh I don't let Anders off the hook.  What he did was pure terrorism.  No other word for it, but Meredith and her Templars were Elthina's DIRECT SUBORDINATES under Chantry Law.  She could have done something, should have done something, and was begged many times to do something, and she would not.  It wasn't just Meredith either.  Her handling of Mother Petrice was nothing short of abominable, and it quite likely let to the diplomatic break that caused the Arishok to attack in the end.

-Polaris

#212
Fallstar

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If an officer in the army stood aside and allowed one of his men to do something, and that something had negative effects, that officer would shoulder part of the blame.

The Chantry isn't an army, but when serious offenses are committed in civilian life, the superiors often take part of the blame - the CEOs of various investment banks for example.

What Meredith did and what Petrice did was despicable and both cause grave damage to Kirkwall. Since Elthina was responsible for those two, I hold her partially responsible for the end result in Kirkwall.

#213
Helios969

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IanPolaris wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Plenty of blame to go around. While Elthina was ineffectual, if we blew up every building with inept people present the human race would be extinct.


Oh I don't let Anders off the hook.  What he did was pure terrorism.  No other word for it, but Meredith and her Templars were Elthina's DIRECT SUBORDINATES under Chantry Law.  She could have done something, should have done something, and was begged many times to do something, and she would not.  It wasn't just Meredith either.  Her handling of Mother Petrice was nothing short of abominable, and it quite likely let to the diplomatic break that caused the Arishok to attack in the end.

-Polaris


Definitely wasn't letting her off the hook...just felt horrified for all those other people massacred by Anders.  The quick blade in the back was not near enough "Justice".  Elthina has some responsibility, but the majority lies at the feet of those who perpetrate atrocity...and as horrible as Meredith and Petrice were, there were plenty of mages throwing fuel on the fire.  I guess that was the moral of the story...there's just no reasoning with fanatics.

You think after Uldred and Meredith, Cullen will quit the Templars and go into farming;)

#214
IanPolaris

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Helios969 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Plenty of blame to go around. While Elthina was ineffectual, if we blew up every building with inept people present the human race would be extinct.


Oh I don't let Anders off the hook.  What he did was pure terrorism.  No other word for it, but Meredith and her Templars were Elthina's DIRECT SUBORDINATES under Chantry Law.  She could have done something, should have done something, and was begged many times to do something, and she would not.  It wasn't just Meredith either.  Her handling of Mother Petrice was nothing short of abominable, and it quite likely let to the diplomatic break that caused the Arishok to attack in the end.

-Polaris


Definitely wasn't letting her off the hook...just felt horrified for all those other people massacred by Anders.  The quick blade in the back was not near enough "Justice".  Elthina has some responsibility, but the majority lies at the feet of those who perpetrate atrocity...and as horrible as Meredith and Petrice were, there were plenty of mages throwing fuel on the fire.  I guess that was the moral of the story...there's just no reasoning with fanatics.

You think after Uldred and Meredith, Cullen will quit the Templars and go into farming;)


The bottom line is that Elthina was Grand Cleric.  She has plenty of warning.  She could have stopped both Meredith and Petrice and DIDN'T.   As anti-mage as Cullen is, he is still more-or-less sane.  He didn't want a RoA nor did he think one was needed.

-Polaris

#215
Helios969

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IanPolaris wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Plenty of blame to go around. While Elthina was ineffectual, if we blew up every building with inept people present the human race would be extinct.


Oh I don't let Anders off the hook.  What he did was pure terrorism.  No other word for it, but Meredith and her Templars were Elthina's DIRECT SUBORDINATES under Chantry Law.  She could have done something, should have done something, and was begged many times to do something, and she would not.  It wasn't just Meredith either.  Her handling of Mother Petrice was nothing short of abominable, and it quite likely let to the diplomatic break that caused the Arishok to attack in the end.

-Polaris


Definitely wasn't letting her off the hook...just felt horrified for all those other people massacred by Anders.  The quick blade in the back was not near enough "Justice".  Elthina has some responsibility, but the majority lies at the feet of those who perpetrate atrocity...and as horrible as Meredith and Petrice were, there were plenty of mages throwing fuel on the fire.  I guess that was the moral of the story...there's just no reasoning with fanatics.

You think after Uldred and Meredith, Cullen will quit the Templars and go into farming;)


The bottom line is that Elthina was Grand Cleric.  She has plenty of warning.  She could have stopped both Meredith and Petrice and DIDN'T.   As anti-mage as Cullen is, he is still more-or-less sane.  He didn't want a RoA nor did he think one was needed.

-Polaris


The problem with weak leaders is they can't get anything done...or are blissfully unaware.  Take your pick from any of the incompetant politicians out there.  Regardless of what Elthina could of/could not of done, people like Meredith and Petrice will always find away to sow hatred and push their agendas forward.  If not them specifically, one of their fanatic cronies.  Plus there was the whole Meredith being possessed by an evil idol...a little thing like the Grand Cleric wasn't gonna stop that.  Besides, I figure everyones' just dancing on strings pulled by Flemeth.

#216
IanPolaris

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Helios969 wrote...

The problem with weak leaders is they can't get anything done...or are blissfully unaware.  Take your pick from any of the incompetant politicians out there.  Regardless of what Elthina could of/could not of done, people like Meredith and Petrice will always find away to sow hatred and push their agendas forward.  If not them specifically, one of their fanatic cronies.  Plus there was the whole Meredith being possessed by an evil idol...a little thing like the Grand Cleric wasn't gonna stop that.  Besides, I figure everyones' just dancing on strings pulled by Flemeth.


Then the Divine should have pulled Elthina from Kirkwall long ago and established a different Grand Cleric.  This wasn't the first time that the Templars had grossly overstepped their bounds in Kirkwall, nor was it hardly the first time (even pre-idol) that Meredith would run roughshod over Elthina and the Viscount alike.  Moreover, given that we know that the Divine regularly communicates with Elthina, the Divine had to know about the growing unrest against the Qunari squatters and the chantry's involvement in that...unless Elthina chose not to tell her at which point she stops being incompetant and becomes complicit.

So yes I fully blame Elthina for her weakness because she should have done something, COULD have done something, was even BEGGED to do something (not just by the mages but by the nobility) and refused.

-Polaris

#217
Helios969

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IanPolaris wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

The problem with weak leaders is they can't get anything done...or are blissfully unaware.  Take your pick from any of the incompetant politicians out there.  Regardless of what Elthina could of/could not of done, people like Meredith and Petrice will always find away to sow hatred and push their agendas forward.  If not them specifically, one of their fanatic cronies.  Plus there was the whole Meredith being possessed by an evil idol...a little thing like the Grand Cleric wasn't gonna stop that.  Besides, I figure everyones' just dancing on strings pulled by Flemeth.


Then the Divine should have pulled Elthina from Kirkwall long ago and established a different Grand Cleric.  This wasn't the first time that the Templars had grossly overstepped their bounds in Kirkwall, nor was it hardly the first time (even pre-idol) that Meredith would run roughshod over Elthina and the Viscount alike.  Moreover, given that we know that the Divine regularly communicates with Elthina, the Divine had to know about the growing unrest against the Qunari squatters and the chantry's involvement in that...unless Elthina chose not to tell her at which point she stops being incompetant and becomes complicit.

So yes I fully blame Elthina for her weakness because she should have done something, COULD have done something, was even BEGGED to do something (not just by the mages but by the nobility) and refused.

-Polaris


Then by this logic shouldn't the Divine who appointed Elthina (and supposedly was aware of unrest) be equally culpable.  For this matter, since it's a fantasy story should we get with the Elven Trickster God (cough...Flemeth) and wage a war against the Maker for allowing all this to go down.  He must be a bad god for allowing so much misery to take place and not stepping in.

Again I'm not giving Elthina a pass, but people who perpetuate the crime bear most of the responsibility.  Besides, Elthina's dead...what good does it do to place all this at her feet?  In situations like the main storyline of DA2 where you have societal discord and social institutions briming with corruption, isn't everyone to blame?  Templars, Chantry, mages, Nobility, even the common folk either did things to make it worse or bury their heads in the sand (Elthina) and hoped the problem went away.  In a sad, morbid way everyone was punished by the city set to destroying itself (again.)

#218
Plaintiff

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Helios969 wrote...

Plenty of blame to go around. While Elthina was ineffectual, if we blew up every building with inept people present the human race would be extinct.

Well, that's a pretty obvious strawman. Whether or not you agree with what Anders did, there's no reason to believe that he plans to go around murdering every one who sucks at their job. His target is and was always Elthina secifically, and for more reasons than her incompetence.

#219
Plaintiff

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Helios969 wrote...
Then by this logic shouldn't the Divine who appointed Elthina (and supposedly was aware of unrest) be equally culpable.  For this matter, since it's a fantasy story should we get with the Elven Trickster God (cough...Flemeth) and wage a war against the Maker for allowing all this to go down.  He must be a bad god for allowing so much misery to take place and not stepping in.

Again I'm not giving Elthina a pass, but people who perpetuate the crime bear most of the responsibility.  Besides, Elthina's dead...what good does it do to place all this at her feet?  In situations like the main storyline of DA2 where you have societal discord and social institutions briming with corruption, isn't everyone to blame?  Templars, Chantry, mages, Nobility, even the common folk either did things to make it worse or bury their heads in the sand (Elthina) and hoped the problem went away.  In a sad, morbid way everyone was punished by the city set to destroying itself (again.)

Everyone bears the responsibility for their own choice and actions, but you're arguing ad absurdium. The Maker can't be blamed, there's no evidence that he even exists, let alone that he has any involvement in the situation.

Few people in Kirkwall have the capability or means to improve the situation there, so I do not think many of them bear any blame. Mages  have no legally recognised rights, so they certainly don't have any power to effect change, not even Orsino, who risked imprisonment, tranquility or even death every time he publicly spoke out against Meredith. The same goes for the common people, many of whom are homeless and fored to resort to crime in order to survive.

The Nobility may have the means, and indeed some are even working against Meredith in secret, but it's not just a question of means, but also responsibility. Meredith is not the nobility's responsibility. She is Elthina's responsibility, and Elthina should've dealt with her.

#220
DPSSOC

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Plaintiff wrote...

Helios969 wrote...
Plenty of blame to go around. While Elthina was ineffectual, if we blew up every building with inept people present the human race would be extinct.

Well, that's a pretty obvious strawman. Whether or not you agree with what Anders did, there's no reason to believe that he plans to go around murdering every one who sucks at their job. His target is and was always Elthina secifically, and for more reasons than her incompetence.


Mainly she was the only thing preventing mass slaughter.  Yeah the guy with clear anger management issues, possessed by a spirit that amplifies this at least 10 fold, who levelled a building for the sole purpose of getting as many people killed as possible sounds like a fountain of self restraint.

Elthina wasn't very good at her job, but she could have been a lot worse.  She kept Meredith from just outright killing the mages, she prevented her from killing, imprisoning, or Tranquilling a First Enchanter who actually had the courage to stand up to her.  She was trying, maybe not hard enough but she was trying to keep Kirkwall from blowing up and bringing an Exalted March on all the people who live there, mage and non-mage alike.

Plaintiff wrote...
Mages  have no legally recognised rights, so they certainly don't have any power to effect change,


Well when you've got an authourity figure accusing you of using Blood Magic you could you know, not.  The mages could have not set about justifying Meredith's fears at every opportunity.  They could have let her conduct her searches and continually find nothing.  Eventually Meredith's paranoia would have been revealed as such and either her superiors or her subordinates are going to at least rob her of any bite she might have.

The fine line between paranoia and caution is reality.  If the Mages didn't consistently justify Meredith's stricter measures she wouldn't have been able to gain support.  It's when you've got people like Tarohne and Decimus running around that people like Meredith thrive because there are real, and legitimately terrifying, instances they can point to in order to strengthen their position.

The Mages might not have been able to change anything legally but they are to blame for consistently showing themselves to be everything Meredith accuses them of.

#221
Plaintiff

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DPSSOC wrote...
Mainly she was the only thing preventing mass slaughter.  Yeah the guy with clear anger management issues, possessed by a spirit that amplifies this at least 10 fold, who levelled a building for the sole purpose of getting as many people killed as possible sounds like a fountain of self restraint.

He's been keeping that same spirit reasonably well in check for the better part of a decade. In fact, Anders rarely loses his cool.

It's not an "anger management issue" if you have legitimate reasons to be that angry. And Anders has those in spades. I'd like to see you or I or anyone else on these forums cope with the crap he puts up with every day. The man's life is at constant risk, and he's already seen good friends lose their lives and their minds at the hands of the Templars and the Chantry.

Elthina wasn't very good at her job, but she could have been a lot worse.  She kept Meredith from just outright killing the mages, she prevented her from killing, imprisoning, or Tranquilling a First Enchanter who actually had the courage to stand up to her.  She was trying, maybe not hard enough but she was trying to keep Kirkwall from blowing up and bringing an Exalted March on all the people who live there, mage and non-mage alike.

All she had to do was fire Meredith and appoint someone more reasonable. It's not a difficult or particularly complex task, and I refuse to believe that this was in any way beyond her capabilities. Instead of treating the symptoms (inadequately), she could've eliminated the source of them, making life a lot easier for herself as well as everyone else.

Well when you've got an authourity figure accusing you of using Blood Magic you could you know, not.  The mages could have not set about justifying Meredith's fears at every opportunity.

Well they weren't, were they. There are only a few Circle Mages that were ever shown to be using blood magic, and notably Meredith was never the one who caught any of them.

They could have let her conduct her searches and continually find nothing.  Eventually Meredith's paranoia would have been revealed as such and either her superiors or her subordinates are going to at least rob her of any bite she might have.

They could have, but why should they? In the real world, the authorities can't just barge into your private space and demand to search it.

Her paranoia is already obvious, as is her incompetence. Hawke is the one catching all the blood mages and violent apostates while Meredith looks for monsters under her bed. and sticks her nose in issues that don't concern her in the slightest. As I said before, Meredith should've been fired before Hawke even came to Kirkwall. The fact that Elthina hadn't done that already proves that the situation was already beyond hope.

The fine line between paranoia and caution is reality.  If the Mages didn't consistently justify Meredith's stricter measures she wouldn't have been able to gain support.  It's when you've got people like Tarohne and Decimus running around that people like Meredith thrive because there are real, and legitimately terrifying, instances they can point to in order to strengthen their position.

What's 'terrifying' is that the Templars under Meredith's command are so awful at their job that an unskilled mercenary and his apostate friends have to do it for them.

The Mages might not have been able to change anything legally but they are to blame for consistently showing themselves to be everything Meredith accuses them of.

Except they didn't, and there is nothing to indicate that the majority (if not all) of the mages slaughtered by Meredith's Right of Annullment were anything less than perfectly well-behaved. There is no reason to suppose that the mages Hawke meets are represntative of the mage population as a whole, especially given that he is a mercenary and meets dangerous people of all kinds every single day.

"The Mages" are not a hivemind anymore than "The Elves" or "The Dwarves" or "The Teenagers" or "The Christians" or "The Gays" are. They are a group of individuals who just happen to share a single trait that causes them to be unfairly persecuted.

As even a cursory glance at the history of civil rights will tell you, keeping your head down and silently submitting to your oppressor's demands is exactly how change doesn't happen. Slaves didn't earn their freedom by working hard for their masters, they earned it by fighting back and escaping.

Mages have, by and large, been well behaved for the past thousand years, and in fact have often acted for the obvious benefit of the Chantry and Thedas as a whole, like when their magic was the deciding factor in the conflict with the Qunari. These positive acts receive no reward and no recognition. The Chantry has had penty of time to re-evaluate its treatment of mages, who have been patient for long enough.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 février 2013 - 02:52 .


#222
MisterJB

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Plaintiff wrote...
It's not an "anger management issue" if you have legitimate reasons to be that angry. And Anders has those in spades. I'd like to see you or I or anyone else on these forums cope with the crap he puts up with every day. The man's life is at constant risk, and he's already seen good friends lose their lives and their minds at the hands of the Templars and the Chantry.

It is if it starts threatening those around you. Being angry at Alrik? Understandable.
Killing innocent girl because she correctly indentified you as a demon? Issue.

They could have, but why should they?

Because a large group of Circle mages had recently used blood magic in an attempt to overthrow the highest authority figure amongst the templars. Searching the tower to ensure no more are left is a reasonable precaution.

What's 'terrifying' is that the Templars under Meredith's command are so awful at their job that an unskilled mercenary and his apostate friends have to do it for them.

Meredith dismantled the mage underground.

They are a group of individuals who just happen to share a single trait that causes them to be unfairly prosecuted.

Mages are dangerous. The restrictions placed upon their freedoms are meant to reflect this much like the restrictions upon the freedoms of any normal citizens do. Since the danger they pose is much larger, their restrictions are stricter.

#223
Plaintiff

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MisterJB wrote...
It is if it starts threatening those around you. Being angry at Alrik? Understandable.
Killing innocent girl because she correctly indentified you as a demon? Issue.

If I saved someone from gangrape and they started calling me nasty names, I wouldn't think very highly of them either.

Because a large group of Circle mages had recently used blood magic in an attempt to overthrow the highest authority figure amongst the templars. Searching the tower to ensure no more are left is a reasonable precaution.

No it's not. Even after 9/11, the authorities didn't go barging into the private homes of every Middle Eastern immigrant. Because assuming that people who share a genetic trait are in any way connected to each other is stupid.

Meredith dismantled the mage underground.

Didn't see it, don't care.

But hey, Meredith managed to capture one group of relatively harmless mages throughout the course of the entire game. Good for her. Meanwhile, the streets run red with the blood of the Crimson Weavers and the Followers of She, who actually present a legitimate threat. But I guess the Templars need their beauty sleep.

Mages are dangerous. The restrictions placed upon their freedoms are meant to reflect this much like the restrictions upon the freedoms of any normal citizens do. Since the danger they pose is much larger, their restrictions are stricter.

Restrictions that range from the reasonable to unconscienably ridiculous, like forbidding them from learning to use mundane weapons. Restrictions that could've easily been relaxed with little to no repercussions over the past millenium, if the Chantry had just made an effort. The Chantry had more than enough time and resources to build a better Circle infrastructure that would've allowed greater freedom for mages and greater protection for mundanes, not to mention being just generally more efficient than locking them up in any ancient tower they just happen to find.

But instead they blew all that budget on hundred-foot tall statues of gold.

Exactly how are normal citizens "restricted"? Laws are not "restrictions", they do not actually prevent you from doing anything. They only exist to let you know that you'll be punished after the fact. If mages were subjected to extra laws, that might be reasonable. But that's not what's happening.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 février 2013 - 03:23 .


#224
MisterJB

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Plaintiff wrote...
If I saved someone from gangrape and they started calling me nasty names, I wouldn't think very highly of them either.

If the person who saved me is glowing blue with lyrium, has fade fire burning in his hands and is talking about mass slaugther, I'd be pretty scared too.

No it's not. Even after 9/11, the authorities didn't go barging into the private homes of every Middle Eastern immigrant. Because assuming that people who share a genetic trait are in any way connected to each other is stupid.

I'm not talking abotu Anders, I'm talking about Grace. Grace who shared living space with other Circle mages; Grace who could have easily taught ten more how to practice blood magic.

But hey, Meredith managed to capture one group of relatively harmless mages throughout the course of the entire game.

They were helping mages escape. That is anything but harmless.

Good for her. Meanwhile, the streets run red with the blood of the Crimson Weavers and the Followers of She, who actually present a legitimate threat. But I guess the Templars need their beauty sleep.

I guess mages are pretty dangerous.

Restrictions that range from the reasonable to unconscienably ridiculous, like forbidding them from learning to use mundane weapons. Restrictions that could've easily been relaxed with little to no repercussions over the past millenium, if the Chantry had just made an effort. The Chantry had more than enough time and resources to build a better Circle infrastructure that would've allowed greater freedom for mages and greater protection for mundanes, not to mention being just generally more efficient than locking them up in any ancient tower they just happen to find.

But instead they blew all that budget on hundred-foot tall statues of gold.

You know, those gold statues help keep people safe. Image is very important, it's why kings don't dress like peasants. The Chantry needs to inspire awe and respect or no one will listen to it.
You say that the Circle could be better and I agree. Altough I suspect we would disagree on just the manner and extent of changes.

Exactly how are normal citizens "restricted"? Laws are not "restrictions", they do not actually prevent you from doing anything. They only exist to let you know that you'll be punished after the fact. If mages were subjected to extra laws, that might be reasonable. But that's not what's happening.

Laws are, in fact, restrictions. It's their very point. Restrict everyone's freedoms so that society can exist.
For instance, in my country civillians can't have guns under any circunstance; the government can have as many as they want tough; the assumption here is not that everyone in the country has showed signs of past violent behavior and thus can't be trusted. We are not allowed guns because there is always a possibility that we might use them to harm others.
Same with magic. But, unfortunately, while you can take guns away from peope, you can't take magic away from a mage.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 février 2013 - 04:20 .


#225
TEWR

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But instead they blew all that budget on hundred-foot tall statues of gold.


Those statues are relics from the Imperium's days, if you're talking about the ones in the Gallows or around the Viscount's Keep. If you mean the one of Andraste in the Kirkwall Chantry... well.... then I dunno.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2013 - 09:25 .