567 réponses à ce sujet

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

So you're saying cinematics count as substance.

Duh.

Also, a game having cinematics would not detract from the quality of the models.

Cine artists are not responsible for modeling.

[AlexanderCousland]

I thought the way DA:O had a great look to it. That said, DA2' s look (as far as armour & character modeling go) was better. I do prefer Origins landscapes better. If they could just bring the plot up to par with Origins then they would have something, overall Dragon Age' s stock is down in my market, hope DA3 doesnt disappoint.

[dheer]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
The elves are getting redesigned and thank Christ for that. They were fugly in DA II, I did like the look of the Qunari in DA II, although I wouldn't mind seeing some variation in facial structure. They all basically have the same face...

They are? That's great news I must have missed. Thanks.

[shubnabub]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

calypsnex wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ooh when do we get to the part in Obsidian's fantastic decisionmaking where FNV's middling Metacritic score resulted in half the company being laid off because Bethesda didn't have to pay them?

(I actually love New Vegas)

That was part of the contract with Beth and Beth also stipulated that they would do the bug testing which likely had a direct impact on the MC score...or that's what I pieced together. 

(and I love it too T_T)

(my tears are because that horrible contract and its horrible outcome are the reason Obsidian will never make another FO game)

Is another Fallout game made by Obsidian really off the table?

It was kind of a disaster for Obsidian.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

So you're saying cinematics count as substance.

Actually, what I was saying is that there is no "cinematics versus substance" fight in which developers must pick a side. It's exclusively fought on message boards by posters like you who think they're championing a cause that doesn't actually exist behind the scenes.

Incidentally, yes, cinematics do count as substance.  But that's not relevant to my labeling the "conflict" a false dichotomy.

Yeah, there isn't... that's why recent BioWare games have had so much substance.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

calypsnex wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

calypsnex wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ooh when do we get to the part in Obsidian's fantastic decisionmaking where FNV's middling Metacritic score resulted in half the company being laid off because Bethesda didn't have to pay them?

(I actually love New Vegas)

That was part of the contract with Beth and Beth also stipulated that they would do the bug testing which likely had a direct impact on the MC score...or that's what I pieced together. 

(and I love it too T_T)

(my tears are because that horrible contract and its horrible outcome are the reason Obsidian will never make another FO game)

Is another Fallout game made by Obsidian really off the table?

It was kind of a disaster for Obsidian.

AFAIK it actually sold well. So maybe Bethesda will be interested in swindling them again for the good of RPG fans everywhere.

[shubnabub]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

calypsnex wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

calypsnex wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ooh when do we get to the part in Obsidian's fantastic decisionmaking where FNV's middling Metacritic score resulted in half the company being laid off because Bethesda didn't have to pay them?

(I actually love New Vegas)

That was part of the contract with Beth and Beth also stipulated that they would do the bug testing which likely had a direct impact on the MC score...or that's what I pieced together. 

(and I love it too T_T)

(my tears are because that horrible contract and its horrible outcome are the reason Obsidian will never make another FO game)

Is another Fallout game made by Obsidian really off the table?

It was kind of a disaster for Obsidian.

AFAIK it actually sold well. So maybe Bethesda will be interested in swindling them again for the good of RPG fans everywhere.

Well that's the problem, it went swimmingly for Beth, but for Obsidian it was like they took Beth back to the room for some kissy kissy and woke up with all their furniture gone. I don't think it's gonna happen again.

[upsettingshorts]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...
Yeah, there isn't... that's why recent BioWare games have had so much substance.

Yet it's funny how nobody ever has the same answer as to when this alleged "recent" decline actually begins.

It's almost as if their definitions of "substance" are arbitrary, self-serving, and not based on any objective criteria at all.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 janvier 2013 - 12:03 .

[Joy Divison]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

While it is true the character modeling for the followers in DA2 was high quality, this came at the expense for the extraordinary low-quality and repetitve modeling of just about everything else in the game

So you're saying DA2 slightly improved upon DAO's extraordinarily low-quality modeling of everything, then?

No, I am saying exactly what I said.  The character modeling for followers in DA2 was excellent.  Just about all the other artistic apsects of the game from the enviornments, most NPCs, Kirkwall, and pretty much eveything except the Chantry door and key NPCs like the Arishok were inspid and repetitive.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 11 janvier 2013 - 12:04 .

[upsettingshorts]

I wasn't putting words in your mouth.

I was mocking your argument.

It's not really the same thing.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 janvier 2013 - 12:06 .

[Joy Divison]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I wasn't putting words in your mouth.

I was mocking your argument.

It's not really the same thing.  

Then why not actually engage it?  I made no opinion of DA:O's art style.  In fact, I tried to play DA:O a couple months ago and stopped partly because the art seemed so dated.  I loved DA:O but aside from the occasional touches like the books on the floor in the Circle Tower, the art isn't really anything to celebrate.

What aspects of DA:2's art aside from the followers and obvious standouts like the Arishok that you find compelling enough to mock my argument?

Modifié par Joy Divison, 11 janvier 2013 - 12:16 .

[upsettingshorts]

Since you asked, I posted them back on page 10.

[Joy Divison]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Since you asked, I posted them back on page 10.

OK, you posted 5 screenshots where DA2 tried to do more with the environments.  And, from some of those screenshots, particularly the one inside the Chantry and the candles next to the tree in the Alienage, you could make a case that there is effort and some success.

But you are being selective in your examples and not acknowledging the many more bland and lifeless settings in which a DA2 player will repeatedly encounter.  This goes beyond recycled environments.  All of the caves, dungeons, sewers, and outdoor enviroments whether it is the Wounded Coast, the Dalish Camp, Lothering, or random insipid sandy environment, are devoid of anything that would make them distinct, let alone remotely interesting (except for maybe the half-sunken ship that never changes in the seven years off the Wounded Coast).

And it is not so much a matter of taste.  I personally do not like the new look elves and I detest how the darkspawn were represented, but that's more a matter of opinion (and, as an example, I actually do prefer the new look Kossith).  The caves, sandy beaches, and underground passages were just so bad and unworthy of a company with the reputation of Bioware and a game I am charged $60 for that I think it is disingenous to excuse the many poor examples of art in the game by highlighting a select few instances that are unrepresentative of what a player will see over much of the game.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 11 janvier 2013 - 12:49 .

[upsettingshorts]

I was selective in picking screenshots based on ones I could find in other threads and on Google. I was, essentially, aping off of arguments that were made months ago.

You bring up caves. The cave, oft repeated in DA2, is in of itself better looking than any cave we got in Origins. The problem is... it's the only cave.

Likewise, the video I linked has a part at the end that compares the Dalish Camp to the Brecilian Forest, and let me tell ya, the latter does not do well in the comparison at all.

That said, I hardly agree with the label that picking shots of Kirkwall is disingenuous considering how much time we as players spend in it.

If an environment is going to be evaluated solely on its distinctiveness, then - and I know you said you personally don't rate it, but it is the premise of the thread - Origins fails spectacularly, and is hardly an approach worth returning to.  Is DA2 perfect?  Hardly.  But that's not really what's being argued here.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 janvier 2013 - 12:54 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Joy Divison wrote...

But you are being selective in your examples and not acknowledging the many more bland and lifeless settings in which a DA2 player will repeatedly encounter.  This goes beyond recycled environments.  All of the caves, dungeons, sewers, and outdoor enviroments whether it is the Wounded Coast, the Dalish Camp, Lothering, or random insipid sandy environment, are devoid of anything that would make them distinct, let alone remotely interesting (except for maybe the half-sunken ship that never changes in the seven years off the Wounded Coast).

Is the blandness inherent to the environment visuals, or is it because you've seen them so many times that you've simply gotten tired of them? These two reasons are are not equivalent at all.

I thought Redcliffe in DAO looked bland and uninteresting the very first time I saw it. I thought the caves in DA2 looked pretty good the first time I saw them, especially compared to the fade or the deep roads in DAO. It was only after seeing them again and again and again that I grew weary of them. That, to me, is not an indictment of the art style so much as of the lack of content overall that one can attribute to the 11 month dev cycle.

[Joy Divison]

No, the problem is it's not a cave. Caves can be interesting places if the developers actually put the effort into making them so.

http://superelitegam...y-Moonlight.jpg

http://gametography....m-wallpaper.jpg

And why do you keep referencing DA:O? I don't care about what caves looked like in DA:O. That was never part of my argument. Just because the DA:O's caves were lifeless doesn't make DA:2's lifeless caves somehow not lifeless.

And I hardly agree that Kirkwall ought to be considered high quality. The city *never* changes in the seven years we spend there aside from a statue that is erected. NPCs just stand there (and I think we can actually walk through many of them or was that just the beginning when we got off the ship) in the same spots and in no way react to our presence (or anything else). Since we do spend so much time there, more effort should have been put into it making it a dynamic place with a life independent of the PCs presence.

If your basic argument is the art in DA:2 ain't too bad since it improved on some aspects of DA:O, that's weak.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 11 janvier 2013 - 01:19 .

[upsettingshorts]

Joy Divison wrote...

And why do you keep referencing DA:O?

Joy Divison wrote...

If your basic argument is the art in DA:2 ain't too bad since it improved on some aspects of DA:O, that's weak.

You need to take a look at the thread title again.

Edit:  I'll clarify since I'm heading out for the night and won't be around to follow-up.  I'm okay with improving upon DA2.  What I'm not in favor of is returning to anything DAO did.  If you're not arguing for a return to DAO, or in favor of DAO's art style, then this thread is not the place to have the argument we've gotten into here.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 janvier 2013 - 01:38 .

[Joy Divison]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Is the blandness inherent to the environment visuals, or is it because you've seen them so many times that you've simply gotten tired of them? These two reasons are are not equivalent at all.

I thought Redcliffe in DAO looked bland and uninteresting the very first time I saw it. I thought the caves in DA2 looked pretty good the first time I saw them, especially compared to the fade or the deep roads in DAO. It was only after seeing them again and again and again that I grew weary of them. That, to me, is not an indictment of the art style so much as of the lack of content overall that one can attribute to the 11 month dev cycle.

You bring up two legitimate points.  This is what I'd counter with.

I did not simply get tired of the Wounded Coast.  The first time I went there I thought it uninteresting and unworthy of a game that had Bioware's name on the box.  The same is true for the first quest where you Escape From Lothering.  Aside from the Dalish wagons (unfortunately the rest of the camp is bland), I can not think of outdoor setting that could be considered even average by 2011 artistic standards for a high profile company like Bioware.  Granted it's been a long time since I played the game, but those enviornments are forgettable not because we frequent them so often, it's because they are uninspiring.  Frequenting them so often exacerbates the problem.

If you are going to tell me these artistic problems stem for the 11 month dev cycle, I could agree with that.  What I have a hard time reconciling however is why I was charged $60 for a game that lacked content, the same amount of money I paid for Skyrim which is in comparison to DA2, scenery porn.  If you'll say it's not fair to compare Skyrim because it took some 5 years to make with DA:2, I will counter by saying since I was charged the same amount, it compels comparison. 

Modifié par Joy Divison, 11 janvier 2013 - 01:38 .

[Joy Divison]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

And why do you keep referencing DA:O?

Joy Divison wrote...

If your basic argument is the art in DA:2 ain't too bad since it improved on some aspects of DA:O, that's weak.

You need to take a look at the thread title again.

Edit:  I'll clarify since I'm heading out for the night and won't be around to follow-up.  I'm okay with improving upon DA2.  What I'm not in favor of is returning to anything DAO did.  If you're not arguing for a return to DAO, or in favor of DAO's art style, then this thread is not the place to have the argument we've gotten into here.

Fine, brush me aside because my opinion does not fit into the dichotomy you perceive is appropriate for this thead.  Why must eveything be either DA:O or DA:2?  How about both or neither?  To directly address the thread then.

Bioware: I'd rather you not return to the art style in DA:O excepting the darkspawn and the occasional attention to detail such as the books lying on the Circle Tower floor, the latter being something your marketing staff thought it was such a good idea to exclude they touted it in interviews pre-release.  That was a mistake.  This does not mean I like DA2's art style.  If anything, I found much of it even more uninteresting.  Rather than returning to mediocrity, my plea is for you to develop something new.

[hoorayforicecream]

Joy Divison wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Is the blandness inherent to the environment visuals, or is it because you've seen them so many times that you've simply gotten tired of them? These two reasons are are not equivalent at all.

I thought Redcliffe in DAO looked bland and uninteresting the very first time I saw it. I thought the caves in DA2 looked pretty good the first time I saw them, especially compared to the fade or the deep roads in DAO. It was only after seeing them again and again and again that I grew weary of them. That, to me, is not an indictment of the art style so much as of the lack of content overall that one can attribute to the 11 month dev cycle.

You bring up two legitimate points.  This is what I'd counter with.

I did not simply get tired of the Wounded Coast.  The first time I went there I thought it uninteresting and unworthy of a game that had Bioware's name on the box.  The same is true for the first quest where you Escape From Lothering.  Aside from the Dalish wagons (unfortunately the rest of the camp is bland), I can not think of outdoor setting that could be considered even average by 2011 artistic standards for a high profile company like Bioware.  Granted it's been a long time since I played the game, but those enviornments are forgettable not because we frequent them so often, it's because they are uninspiring.  Frequenting them so often exacerbates the problem.

If you are going to tell me these artistic problems stem for the 11 month dev cycle, I could agree with that.  What I have a hard time reconciling however is why I was charged $60 for a game that lacked content, the same amount of money I paid for Skyrim which is in comparison to DA2, scenery porn.  If you'll say it's not fair to compare Skyrim because it took some 5 years to make with DA:2, I will counter by saying since I was charged the same amount, it compels comparison. 

The thing is that I never said that DA2 was great. A lot of it could have used work, and I'll heartily agree with you that some environments in DA2, like the wounded coast and sundermount, felt bland and generic too. I'm totally on board with that. But the point of the thread isn't "A plea to learn from Skyrim's art style". It isn't "A plea to improve on DA2's art style". It's "A plea to return to DA:O art style".

As much as I found those environments forgettable, they weren't as bad as DAO's. And the more I saw of DA2's environments, especially those in Legacy and Mark of the Assassin, the more I saw a more interesting and coherent art style I liked (generally). Was it super duper beautiful? Not really. Was it going to win any awards? Doubtful. But I liked what I saw in Legacy and MotA. MotA especially, I really liked the visuals there. So if they were to continue and improve on that, I'm fine with it. It's better than DAO.

So... I agree that Skyrim probably had a more coherent art style. I also agree that Skyrim's environments were probably prettier than DA2's. I just don't think that returning to DAO's muted brown and gray genericness of an art style is something that Bioware should do. If they are improving on DA2's style? Sure, I'm for that. If they are taking it in a different direction and making some other coherent style? Sure, I'm for that too. I just don't want to return to DAO's style because I dislike it.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Joy Divison wrote...

Bioware: I'd rather you not return to the art style in DA:O excepting the darkspawn and the occasional attention to detail such as the books lying on the Circle Tower floor, the latter being something your marketing staff thought it was such a good idea to exclude they touted it in interviews pre-release.  That was a mistake.  This does not mean I like DA2's art style.  If anything, I found much of it even more uninteresting.  Rather than returning to mediocrity, my plea is for you to develop something new.

Source on marketing bragging about removing ambient clutter?

Often, clutter is the last thing added to a game in the polishing phase. DA2 did not get such a phase due to the time constraint. Regardless of what marketing said about it, it's unlikely that anyone on the art side of development though omitting a nice scattering of clutter objects would have a positive result.

[Herr Uhl]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Source on marketing bragging about removing ambient clutter?

Don't have any links, but I remember hearing about it in the time leading up to DA2. So I can vouch for that, for what it is worth.

[TheBlackBaron]

Honestly, the thing that impresses me the most about the JRPG concept art is the sheath.

Yes, particularly large swords often went into sheaths worn over the shoulder and across the back. No, all weapons do not magically affix to the back like in Dragon Age.

[hoorayforicecream]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Honestly, the thing that impresses me the most about the JRPG concept art is the sheath.

Yes, particularly large swords often went into sheaths worn over the shoulder and across the back. No, all weapons do not magically affix to the back like in Dragon Age.

Out of curiosity, what JRPGs (or games in general) have both sheaths for weapons and non-uniform sizes and shapes for those weapons?

[Brockololly]

Pseudocognition wrote...
Source on marketing bragging about removing ambient clutter?

From David Silverman in this interview. Specifically at the 3 minute mark where he references the books in the Circle Tower in Origins as being a detail nobody noticed and not worth the effort it took to put them in the game.

Pseudocognition wrote...
Regardless of what marketing said about it, it's unlikely that anyone on the art side of development though omitting a nice scattering of  clutter objects would have a positive result.

And from the Art Director, Matt Goldman,  in this interview:

A new setting yields new scope: as art director on the series, Matt  Goldman makes regular reference to a new, ‘hotrodded’ art style.  “Marketing told me to say that,” he sighs.

Actually it’s a doddle to see the change between Origins’ muddy,  bleary visuals and Dragon Age 2’s stark, highcontrast lines. Clearly the artistic blandness of the first game still rankles for Goldman. “Damn cheese-wheels,” he semimutters, referring to the ubiquitous  hunks of Edam deployed around Origins’ dungeons. Put in place solely to  fill up space in sparse areas, they – and similar cliche-fantasy  ephemera – distracted from the game’s overall motif, softening the point of swordblades with down-home pointlessness. Matt snaps back from his  frustrated reverie and explains: “The props are to help give context for what the area is, but overall I’d say Dragon Age 2 is a lot more  minimalist looking. The intent is to create a strong personality without getting in your face and without distracting you with all these details that don’t really do anything – they just screw up your path line and  make shadows a lower resolution.”

Matt’s background gives him a uniquely artistic perspective: [b]“we’ve  stripped off what’s extraneous and as a result made the environments and characters sharper. The environment is basically – in terms of a band – the bassline. You have to lay down a nice thick bassline to set the  mood: it’s the backbone of the picture-making, story telling. But if  it’s too detailed then you get this disrupting camouflage problem where  you can’t tell what’s going on. So by stripping away things and looking  for opportunities to create some more dramatic silhouettes, you can  focus attention on the character.”

Modifié par Brockololly, 11 janvier 2013 - 02:18 .