567 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

At this point I suppose I could drop the sarcasm and explain how BioWare has never released two identical games in a row before, and managed to accumulate their "established customer base" anyway, by doing the opposite of pandering to it.

Some might say that one game or another, up to an including Dragon Age 2, was the turning point... but the people who thought Baldur's Gate 2 or Knights of the Old Republic or even Origins was the turning point aren't here anymore. Well... except Sylvius the Mad.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 janvier 2013 - 08:04 .

[Emzamination]

In Exile wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Yep, nurturing the growth of the existing fan base is the only way to go. Taking gambles on gaining potential fans and possibly losing established fans is self-destructive.

Because everyone who buys your game originally would buy the sequel, right?

No of course not, but those fans who like the original will.

[In Exile]

Emzamination wrote...
Unless bioware is planning to buy a million copies of their own game, I'd say listening to the counsel of your established customer base is sound advice.

It took them a while, but I was glad Bioware listend to its traditional fanbase's calls to scrap origin stories, because just like the DA:O forums said pre-release, those stories just destroy RP, right?

[In Exile]

Emzamination wrote...
No of course not, but those fans who like the original will.

What makes you say that this isn't what happened with DA2?

[MelRedux]

Emzamination wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Yep, nurturing the growth of the existing fan base is the only way to go. Taking gambles on gaining potential fans and possibly losing established fans is self-destructive.

Because everyone who buys your game originally would buy the sequel, right?

No of course not, but those fans who like the original will.

Ok, so let's say 50% of people who buy Game I buy Game II.  That means that Game II would have 50% of the sales of the original.  That means that Game II's developer need to do something to make up for those missing sales.  This is done by attracting new buyers.

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
No of course not, but those fans who like the original will.

What makes you say that this isn't what happened with DA2?

People buying blindly after DA:O is probably a factor to the amount of disgruntledness, if you ask me.
I know I should've researched the game better before deciding to buying it. I probably would've decided against it.

Modifié par Xewaka, 11 janvier 2013 - 08:09 .

[Wulfram]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

At this point I suppose I could drop the sarcasm and explain how BioWare has never released two identical games in a row before, and managed to accumulate their established customer base anyway, by doing the opposite of pandering to it.
 

Bioware also hasn't tried to put out a game in such a short timespan before.  The timescale said cheap cash-in, so they should have done the best damned cheap cash in they could.

I don't think BG2 changed - as opposed to added - half the things DA2 tried to, though I might well be biased by not having played BG1 as anything except part of BG2Tutu for probably a decade. 

Though IIRC I preferred BG1's portrait style.  Probably it was more generic.

[Emzamination]

In Exile wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Unless bioware is planning to buy a million copies of their own game, I'd say listening to the counsel of your established customer base is sound advice.

It took them a while, but I was glad Bioware listend to its traditional fanbase's calls to scrap origin stories, because just like the DA:O forums said pre-release, those stories just destroy RP, right?

Why do you say traditional fanbase? Not everyone who likes a bioware game is grouped under one big fan base. Each ip has its own seperate fans, but anyways, it's impossible for dragon age to have established an actual fan base pre-release as there was no game.

[upsettingshorts]

Hey, I don't think BG2 is some turning point either. But Sylvius the Mad has consistently stated that BioWare peaked with BG1.

Head over to the RPG Codex and you'll see tons of people who haven't found BioWare games worthwhile in a decade or more. In Exile brings up folks who objected to the origin stories in DA:O on the old BioWare forums.

The point I'm making is that BioWare has never been afraid to take their games in whatever direction they've seen fit to. Yet around here there's this pervasive belief that BioWare's established fans are this perpetual monolith of singular opinions, and it's simply not supported by history.

People have bailed on BioWare before, and they've been replaced before.  As long as BioWare continues to have confidence in their own vision, they probably have no good reason to expect this won't continue.  And while the time might come for me to bail, that's not a reason to doubt that they won't find someone to replace me either.  That said, it's not a guarantee, but they've lasted quite a while already.

Emzamination wrote...

Why do you say traditional fanbase? Not everyone who likes a bioware game is grouped under one big fan base. Each ip has its own seperate fans, but anyways, it's impossible for dragon age to have established an actual fan base pre-release as there was no game.

Clearly no-one who had played a BioWare game before Dragon Age or Mass Effect before they were released could have possibly been excited about either, despite the fact both were very different from Jade Empire.

You know, except for all the people who were. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 janvier 2013 - 08:20 .

[Emzamination]

In Exile wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
No of course not, but those fans who like the original will.

What makes you say that this isn't what happened with DA2?

Sale figures coupled with complaints about changes to art style, combat mechanics, Dialogue wheel, fetch quest, and the list goes on... etc. 

[Wulfram]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
In Exile brings up folks who objected to the origin stories in DA:O on the old BioWare forums.

I did that.

(I still prefer less specific backgrounds.  Getting a choice of specific backgrounds is simply preferable to getting only one)

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 janvier 2013 - 08:18 .

[MelRedux]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


Clearly no-one who had played a BioWare game before Dragon Age or Mass Effect before either was released could have possibly been excited about either, despite the fact both were very different from Jade Empire.

You know, except for all the people who were. 

I'm just going to raise my hand here and saw I was VERY excited about Dragon Age before it came out, because I really loved KOTOR.

Then I was really excited about Mass Effect because I really liked Dragon Age.*

*I played DAO before ME

Modifié par Mel_Redux, 11 janvier 2013 - 08:22 .

[Emzamination]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Yep, nurturing the growth of the existing fan base is the only way to go. Taking gambles on gaining potential fans and possibly losing established fans is self-destructive.

Because everyone who buys your game originally would buy the sequel, right?

No of course not, but those fans who like the original will.

Ok, so let's say 50% of people who buy Game I buy Game II.  That means that Game II would have 50% of the sales of the original.  That means that Game II's developer need to do something to make up for those missing sales.  This is done by attracting new buyers.

That's rather one sided.  You also run the potential to lose a good portion of that 50% who may have loved the original but felt the sequel was too alien. So lets say you lose 30% of your established base but gain 20% of a new customer base. What then? Gambling is self destructive.

[MelRedux]

Emzamination wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Yep, nurturing the growth of the existing fan base is the only way to go. Taking gambles on gaining potential fans and possibly losing established fans is self-destructive.

Because everyone who buys your game originally would buy the sequel, right?

No of course not, but those fans who like the original will.

Ok, so let's say 50% of people who buy Game I buy Game II.  That means that Game II would have 50% of the sales of the original.  That means that Game II's developer need to do something to make up for those missing sales.  This is done by attracting new buyers.

That's rather one sided.  You also run the potential to lose a good portion of that 50% who may have loved the original but felt the sequel was too alien. So lets say you lose 30% of your established base but gain 20% of a new customer base. What then? Gambling is self destructive.

But then you're still losing 30%....

[upsettingshorts]

I must have slept through the part of Econ that slammed innovation.

[Emzamination]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Why do you say traditional fanbase? Not everyone who likes a bioware game is grouped under one big fan base. Each ip has its own seperate fans, but anyways, it's impossible for dragon age to have established an actual fan base pre-release as there was no game.

Clearly no-one who had played a BioWare game before Dragon Age or Mass Effect before they were released could have possibly been excited about either, despite the fact both were very different from Jade Empire.

You know, except for all the people who were. 

What does their excitement have to do with anything? Pre-release the ip is pretty much non-existent aside from  speculation. Fan bases are usually formed around tangible things.

[Wulfram]

Innovation is great. As long as you're able to realise when your innovation is a load of rubbish and toss it in the bin.

[upsettingshorts]

Wulfram wrote...

Innovation is great. As long as you're able to realise when your innovation is a load of rubbish and toss it in the bin.

I'm sure some of it is going into the bin.

Then some of it is going to be improved and tried again with different execution.

And then some of it is gonna be put back in just as it was.

There will also be new innovations.  Some of it will be good, some of it will be bad, and some of it will need more work.

That's just how it goes if you don't want to stagnate.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 janvier 2013 - 08:38 .

[XX-Pyro]

Emzamination wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Why do you say traditional fanbase? Not everyone who likes a bioware game is grouped under one big fan base. Each ip has its own seperate fans, but anyways, it's impossible for dragon age to have established an actual fan base pre-release as there was no game.

Clearly no-one who had played a BioWare game before Dragon Age or Mass Effect before they were released could have possibly been excited about either, despite the fact both were very different from Jade Empire.

You know, except for all the people who were. 

What does their excitement have to do with anything? Pre-release the ip is pretty much non-existent aside from  speculation. Fan bases are usually formed around tangible things.

Why don't you just go buy a new copy of Origins every time you want a new game? Why gamble and take the risk with a game you might not enjoy?

Modifié par XX-Pyro, 11 janvier 2013 - 08:34 .

[Emzamination]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Yep, nurturing the growth of the existing fan base is the only way to go. Taking gambles on gaining potential fans and possibly losing established fans is self-destructive.

Because everyone who buys your game originally would buy the sequel, right?

No of course not, but those fans who like the original will.

Ok, so let's say 50% of people who buy Game I buy Game II.  That means that Game II would have 50% of the sales of the original.  That means that Game II's developer need to do something to make up for those missing sales.  This is done by attracting new buyers.

That's rather one sided.  You also run the potential to lose a good portion of that 50% who may have loved the original but felt the sequel was too alien. So lets say you lose 30% of your established base but gain 20% of a new customer base. What then? Gambling is self destructive.

But then you're still losing 30%....

Regarding my specific example, the new customer base would be 10% less than the old one. My point is, instead of insuring you keep that 50%, you run the risk of... au forget it.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

If you want to know what happens to games that do the same crap over and over and bring in no new materials or ideas ever look no further than Final Fantasy.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 11 janvier 2013 - 08:47 .

[In Exile]

Emzamination wrote...
Why do you say traditional fanbase?

That's what they called themselves. The true fans, from BGII, that Bioware ignored when they made DA:O by dumbing down the combat and destroying the RP. Every single Bioware game has had people say that Bioware left them behind.

Not everyone who likes a bioware game is grouped under one big fan base. Each ip has its own seperate fans, but anyways, it's impossible for dragon age to have established an actual fan base pre-release as there was no game.

Bioware mitigated that risk by calling it the "spiritual successor" to BGII. They got me to try ME1 by calling it the spiritual successor to KoTOR.

[upsettingshorts]

Pseudocognition wrote...

If you want to know what happens to games that do the same crap over and over and bring in no new materials or ideas ever look no further than Final Fantasy. 

</argument>

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 janvier 2013 - 08:47 .

[ScarMK]

I liked the "genericness/blandness" of Origins, could it have been better? Of course. To me, the look seems to suit the game.

[Addai]

Pseudocognition wrote...

@Addai: I checked with a friend higher up on the FNV food chain, he confirms your dates. I apologize. I cannot pass on the details he provided, however, the difference between DA2 and FNV is current tools and efficient tech. The FNV team was not hindered by its engine.

Ok thank you.  Though Josh Sawyer also talked about them struggling with the engine- they had plans for open areas that had to be scrapped, for instance, couldn't put in the amount of NPCs and detail they wanted and fought the PS3 memory problem that still plagues Skyrim.  I think it isn't fair to say that they didn't have any technical challenges.  It still also begs the question of whether it's a good idea to reinvent the wheel when you know you're under the gun- but, no need to belabor it.