567 réponses à ce sujet

[Eternal Phoenix]

@hoorayforicecream

You're ignoring my actual comment now and setting up a straw man argument.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Those pictures also showed that nothing in DA2 is shaded which is part of DA2's artstyle. Look at the backgrounds in those pictures which are too bright even in those mines.

I didn't even mention Orina. I actually singled out the mine picture. Orina was posted for an example of the most popular ugly character in DA2 who exhibits all the flaws of the current art style.

But alright here's a fairer comparison:







Illustrating the better shading, color and texture that Origins has.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 08 janvier 2013 - 04:30 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

I have to say that I'm very surprised such an art style was even consider for a game set in a FRPG environment. Yes I commend experimentation and daring choices, but it should have been obviously apparent that such as style was going to sit badly with some fans, and IMO such a style does not in any way convey the gritty, mystical, sense of awe and wonder which FRPGs require. It totally cheapens the whole feel of the game and is akin to adding Cher style auto-tuned vocals to a Megadeth album - it just doesn't fit or feel right.

People may like it, loath it or whatever, but if we see it in DA:3 it will be a bad move IMO.

Not only that, but the style is dated and too commonplace to be especially interesting now anyway, even if implemented in the right games.

[SpunkyMonkey]

.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 08 janvier 2013 - 04:28 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Elton John is dead wrote...

You're ignoring my actual comment now and setting up a straw man argument.

I'm not. You started this about art style, and now are arguing that DA2 didn't use shaders. That's a pretty clear goalpost move.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Those pictures also showed that nothing in DA2 is shaded which is part of DA2's artstyle. Look at the backgrounds in those pictures which are too bright even in those mines.

See, you say this, but you're still wrong. There are shaders applied to a lot of things in DA2, characters most specifically. They exist. I explained what it is they do.

Furthermore, I don't believe that shaders are a part of the art style. If that were the case, then concept art wouldn't be part of the art style, since it is never shaded and never textured.

Edit: And you've moved those goalposts again. You said the bolded above, and now you've backpedaled and said that it exists in DA2, just not to the extent as it did in DAO. "Nothing is shaded" is very different from "They didn't use as many shaders".

I didn't even mention Orina. I actually singled out the mine picture. Orina was posted for an example of the most popular ugly character in DA2 who exhibits all the flaws of the current art style.

And you'd still be wrong, because Orana is shaded. I pointed out several examples of how shaders are applied to her, and you ignored them.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 08 janvier 2013 - 04:34 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'm not. You started this about art style, and now are arguing that DA2 didn't use shaders. That's a pretty clear goalpost move.

Nope. I said DA2 didn't employ effective use of shading. Shading was too light whereas in Origins it was vivid. It's only a clear goalpost move to you because you're still ignoring the real subject and focusing on your strawman argument.

hoorayforicecream wrote...
See, you say this, but you're still wrong. There are shaders applied to a lot of things in DA2, characters most specifically. They exist. I explained what it is they do.

They exist but they're not vivid and it's all part of the washed out artstyle DA2 has going for it in comparison to the vivid artstyle that Origins has.

hoorayforicecream wrote...
And you'd still be wrong, because Orana is shaded. I pointed out several examples of how shaders are applied to her, and you ignored them.

Yet I see no vivid shade on her. Clearly you misunderstand me. Shaders can be applied on every object in the game for all I care but that doesn't change the fact that Orina clearly has no shadows. For reference see my post above.

[Noviere]

No one is going to change their opinion, so why continue arguing the same points over and over again?

[hoorayforicecream]

Elton John is dead wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'm not. You started this about art style, and now are arguing that DA2 didn't use shaders. That's a pretty clear goalpost move.

Nope. I said DA2 didn't employ effective use of shading.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Is she shaded or detailed?

No.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Those pictures also showed that nothing in DA2 is shaded which is part of DA2's artstyle.

[Avaflame]

I prefer DA2's STYLE better, DA:O has better environments but that was probably because they had more time to spend making them, not because of the style. Although you are probably tricking my memory with selective screenshots anyway.

In terms of the characters, sure Alistair and Zevran look a bit silly, but that's because as companions they were meant to have very distinctive looks, and transferring that over to a different style would be very difficult. And IMO Leliana actually looks better (not to mention Merril and Isabela, though as they were minor characters in Origins they didn't have the same constrictions and therefore don't really apply). Not sure how I feel about Anders. And generally speaking I like the look of the characters better in DA2.

I do have a gripe with people exploding from a sword though, without having been frozen first.

[Tootles FTW]

Nah, I liked DA:2 better.

[c_cat]

Oh, look it's this thread again! So does anyone else think that the chantryrobes from DA2 are a lot more stylish than the ones from DAO? Certainly less bland, if I dare say that.

[alex90c]

DA:O art style pls, not a fan of DA2's

[Danny Boy 7]

Noviere wrote...

No one is going to change their opinion, so why continue arguing the same points over and over again?

Because people are petty and feel that walking away or simply no longer commenting is a sign of admission that said person was wrong and they were right. Ignoring the fact that both sides could be wrong in some spots, but right in another. 

My opinion of the matter is that character models for DA2 who came from DA:O were pretty...jacked for lack of a better term. However a lot of what is being thrown around are absolutely worst case vs. best case scenario screen shots.

The best comparison for Alistair for example would be...

 vs.  imo since the ratio of Alistair picks in both games is rather weighted towards one side. Here we have a picture of Alistair with roughly the same lighting, similar armor (not the same, but similar). Now there is the obvious "washed out" appearance in the second, however that really could have been improved simply by a better light source. In Origins the light source is almost always there highltighting the "good" side of the characters where as DA2 seems to go for the organic/realistic lighting, yes even in that "cave" (it's actually filled with proper lighting because there is a whole in the ceiling, otherwise the grass and other flora wouldn't have been able to grow). But the real issue with Alistair, Zevran etc isn't shading, lighting etc it's character models. Had Alistair's chin been a bit less pudgy, (albeit with a warmer glow cast upon him) he would have looked fine.

DA2's characters look rather bland in cases but mostly (and I've said this plenty of times) with NPC's or filler characters. Merrill looks ugly or Fenris is to emo isn't an argument. Luckily we haven't had to much of that here, but let's put the best of Origins vs. the best of DA2 (these are my choices so anyone can disagree but you'll see my point in a moment)

 

*continued in next post* (Sorry it won't let me insert any more images for some reason)

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Danny Boy 7

It's obvious to me they didn't even try to tweek these characters when they imported them into DA2. Case-in-point, take a look at Alistair's nose, his nose is totally different in the second. Zevran's face in DA2 is fat, he had a very slim face in DA:O. I don't know if they were going for the characters aging a bit. Zevran especially didn't make sense to me him putting on weight if he is on the run from Crows and is in the process of killing Crow bosses.

So for me it's not the engine of the game and how it works or lighting. They just flat out didn't take the time to work on them when they were imported. I've seen to many other players make a pc that looked to much like Alistair, some came really close to recreating him in DA2 as their pc. This just points to the fact the 2nd game was rushed, not much polish. Cullen was improved and he looked similar to Alistair in DAO, to much so, I thought to be a Cullen or be related to Alistair or Cailan.   They probably just used the type face model in the character creator for Alistair, Cullen, and Calian.  

Players couldn't make an attempt with Zevran because elves weren't allowed as the pc.  I've never used the toolset, so I don't know if anyone tried to do this or not.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 08 janvier 2013 - 05:43 .

[Vortex13]

Biotic Sage wrote...

robtheguru wrote...

DA2 definitely had a more 'cartooney' / anime feel to it which I wasn't all that fussed on. I still enjoyed the game dont get me wrong, but i'd much prefer they edge towards something that looks a bit more realistic. Or if they do decide to carry on from DA2, make it a bit darker, it was just way too bright.

They needed to make it ridiculously bright, thanks to all those lovely browns! haha

In all seriousness though, I have grumbled about the DA2 artstyle since I first saw all the way up until the present day...during this post in fact:  To me, cartoonish, stylized visuals do not mesh with the world of Thedas, which is one that is grounded in very real-world-mirroring socio-political issues such as racism, religion, and government.  In my opinion the art style should reflect the themes of the content, and DA2 is a complete failure in that regard.  I'm not campaigning for photorealism, but if it the visuals were to be placed on a sliding scale with full-cartoon at one end and photorealism at the other, it should definitely lean more toward photorealism.

DA:O was definitely lackluster and unimaginitave in terms of the visual aesthetics, but at least it didn't forcibly clash with the narrative content.

I agree with you Biotic Sage, about the art style clashing with the narritive theme. The art redesign of DA 2 was very jarring for me from a narritive point of view, and while certain aspects of the art style looked good (Qunari looking Minitaur-esque was a good change IMO) and some were tolerable (Elf redesign only because I had elf party members for the majority of the game so I was accustomed to seeing it; still would like a less caractchure appearance) but the biggest and worst redesign (IMO) was the Darkspawn. People have said that the DA:O Darkspawn were generic orcs and goblins (I liked the look personally) but they FIT THE NARRATIVE.

Look up the lore behind how Darkspawn are created (born): They find and capture a female, force her to eat the flesh of her comrades, as well as Darkspawn and they rape her continuiously. Canabalizim, and rape are the two defining characteristics of not only Broodmothers but of how the Darkspawn enter into this world; a corrupting and twisting of beauty into something horrible.

Not only that, but you have numerous lore pointing to the Darkspawn taint corrupting weapons, armor, and even the very ground they walk upon. Their blood is highly toxic and spells cretins death to all but a select few individuals that come in contact with it.

DA:O / DA:A: The Darkspawn astetic fit the narrative, themes, and lore surrounding them.

DA 2: The Darspawn astetic clashes with the narratives, themes, and lore surrounding them.

Even the Darkspawn in Legacy are jarring (Corpheus is the closest to matching the theme but just barely). Darkspawn no longer resemble the corrupted races they spawn from; DA:O Genlocks looked vaguely Dwarven, Hurlocks were twisted humans who's evil grin and laugh added to their ruthless cunning. DA 2 Genlocks (especially the Genlock Alpha) look more like baby ogres or gorillas then Dwarves, Hurlocks are undead skeletons not twisted reflections of humanity, and while the Qunari do resemble the DA:O's ogre, the redesign is not even close.

All the DA 2 Darkspawn are cleaner then the PC and his/her party, the pristine armor of the Hurlocks, the 'baby face' of the ogres, the Donkey Kong vibe of the Genlocks; none of it matches. And it is this that creates a narritive disconect in the game.

I really hope that the Devs are looking into the 'narrative consistency' of the astetics for DA:I (especially the Darkspawn). I would prefer the DA:O's Darkspawn, but I am not against a (new) redesign, as long as it took the lore and backstory into account.

[Danny Boy 7]

 

Now obviously some people can find some better ones than I can, but here are some of the best from both games. In my last post you could see Morrigan's beauty matched with her alluring almost sinister yellow eyes, it's not perfect photorealism, but it's a decent attempt whereas Varric is pretty realistic in his own right. His chest hair actually looks like hair, his coat looks like leather/a material that I know of, but don't know the name of.

The problem isn't lighting, contrast or anything like that, it's a mixture of time constraint vs. usage of said time. I mean there are some ghastly characters in Origins and besides the Deep Roads and parts of the Circle Tower nothing really pops out at you. It's very brown, not that there's anything wrong with that, it fits the near artic region of Ferelden, but it also like Ferelden stew blends into a uniform bronzish color at times. But when they put some extra effort (I want to be clear in that I think they put plenty of effort in both games) they come up with places like the Dead Trenches or the library area of the Circle Tower.

DA2 on the other hand has some very memorable environements, the Chantry doors, the Gallows in the distance from the docks, my personal favorite the Wounded Coast where the bright sand contrasts and pops beautifully against the dark horizen as well as several others. MotA's Wyverns are a clear example of how the enemies can be gorgeous and how DA2 can make it's characters appear opulent and grotesque yet still visually striking.

Now it may seem like I'm biased towards DA2 a little, but honestly I'm not. I realize that both games have their artistic flaws Origins suffers from generic environements and reused characters i.e. just about every noble, but DA2 suffers from lighting issues that really make their character models' (which are very much hit and miss) flaws jump out at you more.

All I'm simply trying to say is that the "art styles" are fine as Elton defines them because we can see where they shine and if we're honest with ourselves they're not THAT different when they do succeed. It's the low points that they need to improve and honestly a return to one style or the other doesn't solve that, you're simply trading one set of flaws with another.

So my suggestion. Keep the style that DA2 has at it's high points. Certain characters, environements (and although not a part of the "art style" in some peoples minds) armor and weapons that really make Dragon Age it's own game and add to that the lighting/shading of Origins. Because together they're much better than apart.

I want DA3 to be unique (like DA2) and have characters that reflect that, but I want the darker tone, atmosphere of Origins.

[Danny Boy 7]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ Danny Boy 7

It's obvious to me they didn't even try to tweek these characters when they imported them into DA2. Case-in-point, take a look at Alistair's nose, his nose is totally different in the second. Zevran's face in DA2 is fat, he had a very slim face in DA:O. I don't know if they were going for the characters aging a bit. Zevran especially didn't make sense to me him putting on weight if he is on the run from Crows and is in the process of killing Crow bosses.

Yeah as I said the lighting only really accentuates flaws, however part of me wants to debate whether his nose is the problem and not the pudgy or fat face that a good bit of the returning characters have like, Zevran. In that case it's really the fault of the people who model the characters. I don't want to be rude and say they were lazy, but they obviously had less time per character. For example Leliana looks fine, very similar to her original appearance, but she lacks that warm glow that I talked about from Origins.

So for me it's not the engine of the game and how it works or lighting. They just flat out didn't take the time to work on them when they were imported. I've seen to many other players make a pc that looked to much like Alistair, some came really close to recreating him in DA2 as their pc. This just points to the fact the 2nd game was rushed, not much polish. Cullen was improved and he looked similar to Alistair in DAO, to much so, I thought to be a Cullen or be related to Alistair or Cailan.   They probably just used the type face model in the character creator for Alistair, Cullen, and Calian.  

I'm...not sure (without mods) you can really recreate Origins's Alistair in the DA2 creator, but I'll try and take your word for it. Polish really is the "big" bad in DA2, but the current discussion is about the art style. I'm not dismissing you, so forgive me if I sound like I am. But like you said it's a problem of time/polish. Had they had the time to buff out the game it would have looked fine. It's not a flaw of the art style, so much as lack of proper implementation know what I mean? Some may not agree with me, but had it been properly implemented we would have seen far more great characters like Varric, Meredith, the Arishok, Merrill (though some are gonna hate her new appearance and I can't completely blame them, I just don't agree) and my personal favorite Marethari. I get that you''re agreeing with me about the implementation vs. art style though so...yeah.

Cullen in my opinion looked a lot less like Alistair this time around, his jaw is much slimmer than Alistair's is in Origins, his eyes are a bit more...I want to say intense and with the slimming of the armors he actually seems leaner than Alistair, but thats just me.


Players couldn't make an attempt with Zevran because elves weren't allowed as the pc.  I've never used the toolset, so I don't know if anyone tried to do this or not.

The elves from DA2 believe it or not look gorgeous back in Origins and actually fit quite well. Had Zevran been worked on a bit more and his jaw been slimmed down I think he would have looked fine, then again who knows. A big thing I noticed however is that the elves of DA2 looked WAY WAY better with longer hair, Merrill, Fenris and some Origins PC's with long hair (but modded to have the DA2 elf models) looked gorgeous. What's a bit disconcerting is the length of the neck, but I've seen some humans irl who have rather long necks and are able to mask it well with certain hairstyles and or clothing. Marethari for example is a wonderful model whose clothing shortens her neck a tad and makes it a bit less...noticeable. Thats just my two cents though.

[Maria Caliban]

The vast majority of the argument on the previous pages exists because people want their personal preferences to be quantifiable and objective then they're neither.

[Noviere]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The vast majority of the argument on the previous pages exists because people want their personal preferences to be quantifiable and objective then they're neither.

That sounds about right.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DA:O didn't have an art style.

^

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Elton John is dead wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

[You specifically mention backgrounds when referring to a screenshot with almost no background. If you're not lying, then you don't seem to know what the word "background" means.

I don't think you know what "shade" means in this context. Shadows and textures are a given in both games.

I was not referring to the elf screenshot. I was referring to the backgrounds in all the other pictures. Yeah Dragon Age 2 has shade and shadows but they're not applied to the same extent as they are in Origins. Check my modified previous comment for the comparison between landscapes from both games.





Origins is more vivid in color.



Underground areas generally look dark and foreboding and give off the "dark fantasy" feel.



Underground areas in DA2 don't.

Methinks Elton doth value post-processing effects overmuch, also does not understand that post-processing can be one of those last special details added towards the end of development... which there was time enough for in DA:O, but given DA2's development schedule, there was no time for bells and whistles.

In addition, post-processing and nonsensical colored lighting were basically the only thing adding any color whatsoever to some parts of DA:O.

In addition again, I think you are conflating several things when you are talking about shadows. I think you are talking about, in part, ambient occlusion, which is massively overblown in DA:O to accomodate the perspective of the tacitcal camera.

I am baffled by everything you've posted in here, buddy.

If you want DA2 to look as weird fakey-rainbow colored as DA:O, it can be easily accomplished by hacking away at a screenshot of your choice in photoshop.



As an arty aside, postprocessing in my experience does not solve giant aesthetic and lighting problems, it only covers them up. The biggest problem aesthetically IMO in DA2 is how most of the light is white.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 08 janvier 2013 - 06:53 .

[upsettingshorts]

What do you know pseudo? You're just a professional video game artist.

Elton has a website put together by 4th graders and About.com.  Two against one.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:00 .

[cJohnOne]

I like DAO's art style. It looks like it has real weight bearing to it. DA2 is more like a comic book use of dramatic art without real Mass to it.

That's my proposition for the day. Ha, Ha.

DAO has real weight. DA2 is dramatic effect.

[xsdob]

No thank you. I want something better.

If they are using forstbite engine, than do some cool things with it. Don't just stick to the same crap over and over.

[ohnotherancor]

this thread literally made me scream in rage and confusion

[smallwhippet]

Pseudocognition wrote...


Methinks Elton doth value post-processing effects overmuch, also does not understand that post-processing can be one of those last special details added towards the end of development... which there was time enough for in DA:O, but given DA2's development schedule, there was no time for bells and whistles.

In addition, post-processing and nonsensical colored lighting were basically the only thing adding any color whatsoever to some parts of DA:O.

In addition again, I think you are conflating several things when you are talking about shadows. I think you are talking about, in part, ambient occlusion, which is massively overblown in DA:O to accomodate the perspective of the tacitcal camera.

I am baffled by everything you've posted in here, buddy.

You're not the only one! Couldn't decide whether it was genuine misunderstanding of the terms of reference, or being wilfully obtuse.

Thank you for this: very informative.