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[StayFrosty05]

garrusfan1 wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...

SilentK wrote...

Garrus in ME2 was not too interesting to me. There was a little too much dwelling on Sidonis, but in ME3 he is gold. It is like he grew up or woke up and took charge again.

@ StayFrosty05 Glad to hear that you liked Ash in ME3. Still haven't done a pt with her so it is nice to have something to look forward to.

If you don't mind Shep having to work for it....Ash is very cool in ME3....

Ash is awesome but I had her as an LI since ME1 don't know if he is talking about starting in ME3

Never touched her in ME1 myself...didn'r like her at all...ME3 though....just WOW!...Ash is very cool........From what I am gathering unfortunately it doesn't make much of a diffenrence as to whenther you ramonace Ash in ME1 all the way through, or just ME2....I would have liked to have seen those who stuck by her through the series get a little extra something.

Modifié par StayFrosty05, 08 janvier 2013 - 06:43 .

[CronoDragoon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Garrus is popular for much the same reason Anderson is: he's a nominal badass who never shows up, seriously contests, or personally challenges Shepard while remaining unwaveringly supportive and frequently complimentary.

There is no personal friction between Shepard and Garrus, as Garrus is properly contrite and quickly capitulates to Shepard's point of view even during Garrus's temporary development in ME1, and afterwards there's no crisis point at which Garrus wavers from canon-friend-supportive territory. Even admitting to murdering Mordin doesn't spark an accusation aimed at the player.

I'd call that being a good judge of character.

Why would killing Mordin of all things spark his anger? Garrus in ME3 is the character constantly poking Shepard about the realities of war and pragmatism vs. idealism.

[StayFrosty05]

Finn the Jakey wrote...



On a related note, is it just me, or do the female characters in the series tend to get more flak from the fans than the male ones? (except Jacob)
Not that I'm implying anything....

Well...I am.

Its' because the female characters have three types only....ruthless or needy or a combination of both....a woman does not have to be ruthless to be strong (am female myself)....and feel the mostly male crew of BW writers really missied the mark....They finally got it much righter...not perfect, but much closer with ME3 Ash.

[Belisarius25]

Stay - This is going off topic but there are some differences (especially if you remained faithful), most of which are actually pretty nice. There's a full list in one of the old Ashley character-forum topics, these are just from memory. There's also a video series that shows what an imported/faithful romance looks like in ME3.

On Mars - when Liara asks how you keep going/fighting, the paragon option is to say you have a lot to live for (Shepard looks over at Ashley/Kaidan). After you discover the huskified Cerberus guy, the last bit of dialogue is different, Shepard's paragon response changes to telling Ashley that he wants her to be at his side to see this through. Lastly, after the Dr. Eva stuff, a ME1 romance (even if you cheated on her, I think, but just ignore that I guess ) leads to different dialogue - Shepard sounds more concerned, etc., and instead of just throwing her over his shoulder, he carries her gently to the Normandy

At the hospital - off the top of my head the big change is after she says she accepts you're not part of Cerberus, she asks where the two of you stand. The 'renegade' option is the clean slate that represents the paragon option for cheaters/non-romancers (I think), the paragon option changes to you telling her that you gave her time but that you want to be with her. She comments on how Shepard knows how to sweep a girl off their feet (which Shepard responds to by saying "Well you're already lying down"). Of course, thanks to game mechanics, this doesn't actually affect anything until later.

Throughout: You'll call her Ash/Ashley instead of by her rank or last name. For example, when you call Hackett after Mars, you tell him "Ashley" got hurt - what the head of the Alliance navy thinks of this, the world wonders.

There's also some dialogue changes in the romance. Obviously on the date, she references your relationship if you had one and there's some discussion of all you've been through. There's a bugged line where, if you restart the romance, she comments about how not all of Shepard's bruises were due to diving for cover. There's additional bugged dialogue in the sex scene too, mostly her teasing Shepard.

Modifié par Belisarius25, 08 janvier 2013 - 09:47 .

[MegaSovereign]

He's alright in ME1. But that's only because the bromance with him was still under-developed. In ME2 and ME3 he's an awesome bro. And come on, he's freaking space Batman.

[Belisarius25]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I'd call that being a good judge of character.

The problem is that Garrus never really explains why he agrees with Shepard no matter what, he simply does - many times with nebulous statements like "you had your reasons", etc., that allow the game to cover for different Shepards getting to the same end result. It's hard to say Garrus is a good judge of character when he basically is written to support (or at least not argue with/contradict) Shepard regardless of what he actually does. I mean, Garrus remains as loyal to the more paragon of paragon Shepards as he does to the most sociopathic of renegades.

Why would killing Mordin of all things spark his anger? Garrus in ME3 is the character constantly poking Shepard about the realities of war and pragmatism vs. idealism.

Considering how Garrus reacts to Palaven burning (and his family being in danger), or his former C-Sec colleagues getting butchered by Cerberus, you don't find it a bit odd that he isn't bothered at all when Shepard's the one responsible for killing Mordin? Hell, if you choose the Geth over the Quarians, he comments that he assumed Tali was an angel under her mask, but does he attempt to confront Shepard at all? Of course not, "you had your reasons". If you choose the Quarians? Garrus doesn't care then either, he's not sorry to see them gone.

If he resorts to prayers hoping his father/sister will get off Palaven (note, Shepard not involved), isn't it odd that he basically shrugs off Tali (even here strongly implied to be a romantic interest) so easily?

Modifié par Belisarius25, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:16 .

[samgurl775]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Garrus is popular for much the same reason Anderson is: he's a nominal badass who never shows up, seriously contests, or personally challenges Shepard while remaining unwaveringly supportive and frequently complimentary.

There is no personal friction between Shepard and Garrus, as Garrus is properly contrite and quickly capitulates to Shepard's point of view even during Garrus's temporary development in ME1, and afterwards there's no crisis point at which Garrus wavers from canon-friend-supportive territory. Even admitting to murdering Mordin doesn't spark an accusation aimed at the player.

Exactly this. Personally I prefer characters that don't worship my every move. I don't not like Garrus (I actually really like him), but it always surprises me to see how many people list him as their favorite. 

[Capt. Pancake]

Garrus has some good qualities
Friendship-Honor-Integrity-against a common enemy

[Asch Lavigne]

For me, I really felt like I got to know him. You listened about his father and how he was fed up with things at C-Sec and wound up mentoring him, which created a bond between Shep and him, and that translated into a bond between Garrus and the player, for some. Plus his sense of humor (in all 3 games) was just great. In 2 you got to see a badass side of him as Archangel, which then had you look at him as kind of broken, beaten, guilty and angry. You were his confident and listened when he talked about his squad and Sidonis. Then you help him with Sidonis and again, mentor him. No matter what you have him do you get a nice wrap up afterwards for his story arc. It felt like it brought everything to a close and that the event actually had some impact on his character rather than its over but he's still the exact same at the end as he was in the beginning, (which does happen to come characters.)

if you romance him you really get to see a sweet, vulnerable, loyal (in a different sense) side of him that just makes you want pagaron hug interrupts. For me, the romance gave Garrus something hopeful, something good in his life. I also felt like it was the best romance because it grew from an established friendship into something more rather than everyone else who you have a few conversations with and fall in love with, which yes does happen, but the way the romance progressed from friends to lovers was just great.

In 3, I felt he was for lack of a better phrase, grown up. He was much more adult, both with responsibilities and attitude. Even if his story in 3 was no where as interesting as it was in 1 and 2.

Plus, he becomes a real friend for Shep instead of just a loyal squadmate.

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:19 .

[HiddenInWar]

Also that romance.

bow-chicka-wow-wow.

[Hazegurl]

I like Garrus because of his sexy voice and attitude. Shepard doesn't need another person to police him/her. They just need a friend and that is how I see Garrus. At the end of the day, the choices Shepard makes are his/her choices that he/she has to live with and he/she will make them regardless so why should Garrus get worked up? Besides Garrus was fighting his own personal demons in ME2 and even he admitted that he has no right telling someone else what to do when he got his own men killed. In ME3, if you tell him you sabotaged the cure he would even mention that in most cases he would say the cost was too high but to save his own world he would probably do it too. I love the fact that Garrus is the only person you can tell something like that to without them blowing up and making it all about them.

With that said I also love Kaidan for standing up for what he believes in and butting heads with Shepard about Cerberus.

[CronoDragoon]

Belisarius25 wrote...

The problem is that Garrus never really explains why he agrees with Shepard no matter what, he simply does - many times with nebulous statements like "you had your reasons", etc., that allow the game to cover for different Shepards getting to the same end result. It's hard to say Garrus is a good judge of character when he basically is written to support (or at least not argue with/contradict) Shepard regardless of what he actually does. I mean, Garrus remains as loyal to the more paragon of paragon Shepards as he does to the most sociopathic of renegades.

Hard to dispute the results, whether it's Renegade or Paragon. I think Garrus sees how effective Shepard is and respects that.  In fact I rather think that's sort of the point of his initial character arc, which was that you can mold him into a Renegade or Paragon.

Why would killing Mordin of all things spark his anger? Garrus in ME3 is the character constantly poking Shepard about the realities of war and pragmatism vs. idealism.

Considering how Garrus reacts to Palaven burning (and his family being in danger), or his former C-Sec colleagues getting butchered by Cerberus, you don't find it a bit odd that he isn't bothered at all when Shepard's the one responsible for killing Mordin? Hell, if you choose the Geth over the Quarians, he comments that he assumed Tali was an angel under her mask) but does he attempt to confront Shepard at all? Of course not, "you had your reasons". If you choose the Quarians? Garrus doesn't care then either, he's not sorry to see them gone.

If he resorts to prayers hoping his father/sister will get off Palaven (note, Shepard not involved), isn't it odd that he basically shrugs off Tali (even here strongly implied to be a romantic interest) so easily?

Of course he prays for his family's safety; he's not uncaring. He also knows that sometimes hard decisions have to be made. It's not like Shepard just killed Tali or Mordin for the hell of it; they were unfortunate consequences of specific ends that Shepard felt were necessary to win the Reaper war. I find this in line with the conversation you have with Garrus earlier where he confides in you that he probably just ordered a bunch of people to their deaths, or something along those lines.

[samgurl775]

Hazegurl wrote...
With that said I also love Kaidan for standing up for what he believes in and butting heads with Shepard about Cerberus.

It's amusing that Ashley gets hated for the exact same thing. 

[Ridwan]

He was very boring in ME then started to loosen up in ME 2 and ME 3 he's become a bro. He still has a very dry personality, but for a Turian he's one of the few who doesn't have a stick up his ass.

[kalasaurus]

HiddenInWar wrote...

Also that romance.

bow-chicka-wow-wow.

[416Leafer]

samgurl775 wrote...

Exactly this. Personally I prefer characters that don't worship my every move. I don't not like Garrus (I actually really like him), but it always surprises me to see how many people list him as their favorite. 

That's pretty much why I started this thread. It doesn't surprise me that almost nobody dislikes/hates Garrus, but it does surprise me that he's voted as THE most popular character.  

Though I do really like the scene where they shoot at bottles, and where he takes off the mask in ME2. But apart from that, he pretty much doesn't have many strong opinions, doesn't have a particularly strong backstory, and isn't a big part of closing one of the major story loops (Mordin/Wrex/Tali/Legion all play major roles). 

[Belisarius25]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hard to dispute the results, whether it's Renegade or Paragon. I think Garrus sees how effective Shepard is and respects that.  In fact I rather think that's sort of the point of his initial character arc, which was that you can mold him into a Renegade or Paragon.

Except, if Shepard does something that doesn't make sense or isn't strategically sound, Garrus doesn't speak up. His loyalty is unquestioning no matter how brutal, self-destructive and stupid you might be in you playthrough. Because you have your reasons, Shepard.

Of course he prays for his family's safety; he's not uncaring. He also knows that sometimes hard decisions have to be made. It's not like Shepard just killed Tali or Mordin for the hell of it; they were unfortunate consequences of specific ends that Shepard felt were necessary to win the Reaper war. I find this in line with the conversation you have with Garrus earlier where he confides in you that he probably just ordered a bunch of people to their deaths, or something along those lines.

Which again, shows why some of us find this part of Garrus to be poorly written. When Shepard isn't involved, he has emotions (he sounds really bothered that his family might not get off Palaven, and you can talk to him about his family several times), but if you wipe out the Quarians  (even if you take it to the extreme of siding with the Geth after supporting Tali/the Quarians throughout ME2) it's okay because you had your reasons. He gets pissed off when he finds butchered C-Sec officers but doesn't bat an eye if you kill Mordin (who he refers to as "one of ours") or the VS (which basically only is possible if you go out of your way to be a jerk, he shrugs it off. As I said in my previous post, it's hard to buy that it's all due to the "calculus of war" when Garrus is written to support Shepard every time no matter what decision is made. 

That's what makes him a bro (and why, for example, my Shepard would love to have him around, if he wanted to confide something without being judged), but from a meta point of view it also cheapens the character. Again, I like Garrus, I just think this is a major weakness of his character (I liked an earlier suggestion of having Garrus made Spectre and having him take the VS' place during the coup, for example).

Modifié par Belisarius25, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:47 .

[Paranoidal nemesis]

I don't really care for Garrus, and have no idea whats so great about him. He's just Mass Effect's version of the renegade ex-cop that makes one liners.

[CronoDragoon]

Belisarius25 wrote...

Which again, shows why some of us find this part of Garrus to be poorly written. When Shepard isn't involved, he has emotions (he sounds really bothered that his family might not get off Palaven, and you can talk to him about his family several times), but if you wipe out the Quarians  (even if you take it to the extreme of siding with the Geth after supporting Tali/the Quarians throughout ME2) it's okay because you had your reasons. He gets pissed off when he finds butchered C-Sec officers but doesn't bat an eye if you kill Mordin (who he refers to as "one of ours") or the VS. As I said in my previous post, it's hard to buy that it's all due to the "calculus of war" when Garrus is written to support Shepard every time no matter what decision is made.

But you are taking two completely different scenarios, noting his different responses to them, and then assigning that to bad writing. The quarians and Mordin were "necessary evils" in the steps to victory. Garrus understands that this can be necessary. His family and murdered C-Sec dudes are just bad things in the world, so understandably he doesn't embrace these situations.

Also, I'd be interested to hear situations where Shepard acts illogically or doesn't achieve what he desires, and Garrus doesn't call him out on it but others do.

[Belisarius25]

CronoDragoon wrote...

But you are taking two completely different scenarios, noting his different responses to them, and then assigning that to bad writing. The quarians and Mordin were "necessary evils" in the steps to victory. Garrus understands that this can be necessary. His family and murdered C-Sec dudes are just bad things in the world, so understandably he doesn't embrace these situations.

How is his family being trapped on Palaven not part of war? Why isn't his family possibly dying just a "necessary evil" then? When it comes to teammates you can kill describes Mordin as "one of us" (Mordin)  and that he's glad to have the VS around if you take the paragon/"good" route but these same characters thrust aside "calculus of war", "you make your choices, sometimes you die by them"? Whatever Shepard does, Garrus tells him that he did either (1) the right thing or (2) the necessary thing, he never expresses his own opinions even when it's out of place not to (you'd think he would say something if Shepard goes from supporting Tali/the Quarians in ME2 to the Geth in ME3, wouldn't you?).  It's not like he has to attack Shepard or even get very angry, but not even a comment like "I never thought you'd do this after all the time we've spent with Tali"? 

I get that he's written to be Shepard's best friend/'shoulder to cry on', and I'm not trying to suggest he's a sociopath or anything, I'm just saying it's the one part of Garrus that I don't like - especially in ME2 when you're working for Cerberus and a critical team member would be important.

Also, I'd be interested to hear situations where Shepard acts illogically or doesn't achieve what he desires, and Garrus doesn't call him out on it but others do.

I don't think Garrus is alone in having this problem, almost nobody in the ME universe every calls out Shepard for anything. The only notable characters I can think of that does is the VS - although Bioware went overboard there in ME3 - and Wrex  if you sabotage the cure. Oh, and I guess Toombs, if you consider him 'good', but that's only an email in ME2.

Modifié par Belisarius25, 08 janvier 2013 - 08:04 .

[CronoDragoon]

Belisarius25 wrote...

How is his family being trapped on Palaven not part of war? Why isn't his family possibly dying just a "necessary evil" then? When it comes to teammates you can kill describes Mordin as "one of us" (Mordin)  and that he's glad to have the VS around if you take the paragon/"good" route but these same characters thrust aside "calculus of war", "you make your choices, sometimes you die by them"? Whatever Shepard does, Garrus tells him that he did either (1) the right thing or (2) the necessary thing, he never expresses his own opinions even when it's out of place not to (you'd think he would say something if Shepard goes from supporting Tali/the Quarians in ME2 to the Geth in ME3, wouldn't you?).  It's not like he has to attack Shepard or even get very angry, but not even a comment like "I never thought you'd do this after all the time we've spent with Tali"?

Does anyone say this? I mean you admit that this is a problem with ME characters in general, so why is this a strike against Garrus specifically? (Although I do think Javik reacts negatively to choosing the geth over the quarians)

I'm not sure why you bring up his family when we're talking about his reactions to Shepard, but in a way it IS a necessary evil. You will notice that he is on board with leaving Palaven despite everyone dying, because he knows he HAS to in order to win the war. He doesn't want his family to die, but he's not defying Shepard to save them either, because he knows their best chance is winning the war quickly (the Crucible). He both has his personal emotions but also recognizes the reality of the situation. It sounds to me like you think his responses should have been a little more personalized about Mordin and Tali, but do you believe he would have disagreed with Shepard shooting Mordin or choosing the geth, based on what I've noted about his reactions to the strategy of war?

[CronoDragoon]

To me this sounds like what you actually have a problem with is how often Shepard gets his way, such that Garrus the pragmatist never has much reason to defy him.

[Dunabar]

I could guess a few reasons though im sure some will want to burn me in a pit after.

For younger audiance I would say its because Garrus is mainly depicted as a sort of sniper. In games with guns the snipers tend to be the most beloved because they're deadly on the battlefield and the general thought of Bad***es. Younger audiance always head right for characters they deem awesome.

Older audiance I would say its a personality matter. However this obviously varies from individual to individual differently.

Innocent approach to romance
For those who love him as a romance option (and from what I'v gathered from a diehard Garrus romance acolyte to her if she ever reads this lol) they may see this as "Aww he's trying so hard not to blow this" but then Garrus turns around with this heart felt feeling where he feels guilty for a lot of the bad things that happened to those around him, but he wants to make this one thing go right. (I have yet to romance him on a character yet, so I may be wrong on wording). The sexual refrence to "popping the heat sink" may of also been something that sparked a bit of innocence in it, something he didn't intend to be dirty but it comes to him suddenly like "Oh hell...". Some may be amazed how innocent slip ups like that can trigger positive emotions in people.

The bad boy or Bad***
Some players that are attracted to the romance with him tend to like the "Bad boy" characters or "Bad***es" for those who rather use a more masculine approach. Garrus really is a "Good guy" who uses renegade approaches to dealing with issues. A cop who tosses his badge aside to carry out justice, the idea of telling your superiors to shove their protocols to ensure the criminal pays for their crimes. This sparks a hint

The Bro
Much like Tali, Garrus has been with Shepard the longest and seen pretty much everything Shepard has seen. There is always a feeling of closeness with people we been through the worst with, those who've been by our sides no matter how bad things were, and they're pretty much considered family to you because they've always been there for you. Garrus too many is just that Bro you always feel you can count on, that person who has your back, and that person who shares in the struggles of life along with you.

I can think of more stuff but I feel this will do for now.

Modifié par Dunabar, 08 janvier 2013 - 08:34 .

[CronoDragoon]

StayFrosty05 wrote...
Its' because the female characters have three types only....ruthless or needy or a combination of both....a woman does not have to be ruthless to be strong (am female myself)....and feel the mostly male crew of BW writers really missied the mark....They finally got it much righter...not perfect, but much closer with ME3 Ash.

This isn't fair. Tali is neither ruthless nor needy. The two times you help her, she was planning on doing things by herself until Shepard decided he was going to help. Remember on the loyalty mission she was planning to book passage on a separate ship and fly back to face the treason trial by herself.

[Belisarius25]

CronoDragoon wrote...Does anyone say this? I mean you admit that this is a problem with ME characters in general, so why is this a strike against Garrus specifically? (Although I do think Javik reacts negatively to choosing the geth over the quarians)

Both the VS characters get upset about it (Ashley cries and says Tali was like a sister to her, Kaidan remarks on the cruelty of what happened - admittedly in a somewhat general way - and how he doesn't like the Geth; both are explictly in favor of you if you side with the quarians specifically because they dont like the Geth). I think Liara isn't happy either but I'm too lazy to double check, I'd imagine Joker is the same. And yeah, Javik is pretty pissed.


As for why this is a strike against Garrus? This is a topic about Garrus' popularity, and I think at least some of it is due to the fact that he's presented as a blank slate that doesn't question you and accepts whatever you do. This flaw isn't unique to Garrus; it's present in many important characters in ME/Bioware RPGs and is a common trait in a lot of games where characterization matters.

To put it more succintly, his unbreakably loyalty is a feature of his character for many/most players. For me it's a bit of a bug. I don't expect people to feel the same way. I think 95% of Garrus is written very well, I just wish his friendship with Shepard (which I don't mind being a bit forced on the player, others may disagree) had a bit more nuance to it.

To me this sounds like what you actually have a problem with is how often Shepard gets his way, such that Garrus the pragmatist never has much reason to defy him.

Sort of. Like I said, I'm not a fan of how Shepard basically never gets criticized no matter what you do. For example, I save the rachni queen both times, the second time Hackett kind of casually goes "I trust your instincts" even as he notes that you got burned last time. Obviously, with our real world knowledge, we know he's right to trust us but I found it a bit odd that the head of the Alliance fleet basically doesn't care that you may have allowed a hostile race to be free. Again.

Also see Anderson saying how he trusts you in the ME3 opening regardless of the various crap you might have done, etc.

Modifié par Belisarius25, 08 janvier 2013 - 08:44 .