367 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

I only really started to like Garrus after LotSB. He is introverted and doesn't really share his personal feelings so the shadow broker dossiers were great for developing his character...

Last text exchange before Omega 4 Relay Jump:Garrus Vakarian (Location: Normandy SR2)
Solana Vakarian (Location: Palaven)
22:08: G:Hey, glad I caught you.
22:10: S:Just about to head to bed. Late my time. Where are you?
22:10: G:Come on, you know I can't tell you that. Not a secure channel.
22:12: S:Oh please, Garrus. You don't have to be all secretive. Illium?
22:12: G:Give it up, Sol.
22:13: S:You're one to talk. Still playing at Spectre, even after all these years.
22:16: G:How's Mom?
22:16: S:Last round of treatments didn't go so well.
22:16: G:Damn it.
22:17: S:We may try an offworld center. Some salarian doctors have something that might work.
22:17: S:It's not covered, though.
22:18: G:Of course not.
22:19: G:I can pay for the treatments.
22:19: S:That's a nice thought. I could really use you here, though.
22:20: G:I can't. How much for the first round?
22:20: S:Forget it.
22:21: G:I can pay.
22:24: S:Sure you can. You lose your C-Sec job, and what about that contract job you were doing up until recently?
22:24: G:Yeah, it ended badly.
22:25: S:So don't give me more garbage about how you're going to help.
22:25: S:You obviously can't help or won't bother.
22:25: S:Damn it, you haven't even bothered to sync up for video chat since you lost that damn job.
22:26: S:If you're so ashamed to look me in the eye, then why are we even talking?
22:26: S:Go have your fun doing merc work or screwing around or whatever. Just don't act like you care.
22:30: G:You're right, sol. I'm so sorry.
22:32: S:No, I'm sorry. Things are rough with Mom. The salarians are expensive as hell.
22:32: G:I wish I could help.
22:35: G:I'm going on a trip. Might be away from the relays for a while.
22:35: S:Another pleasure cruise?
22:36: G:You know me.
22:38: S:Send me something nice.
22:38: G:I'll be in touch when I can.


Last mail message received before Omega 4 relay jump:Mr. Vakarian,
On behalf of the Helos Medical Institute, I would like to thank you for your efforts. It has been understandably difficult to get Collector tissue, given the sensitive situation on the human colonies, so the samples you sent to us have been extremely helpful. Please also offer my sincere thanks to Dr. Solus--I understand he made some calls to the Special Tasks Group, and as a result, our corporate clearance was upgraded.
Your concern about the Corpalis Syndrome is well-founded. While rare, it's an ugly disease. The neurological degeneration is both difficult to witness and nearly impossible to halt. We are in fact working on some test trials for a new treatment, and I believe that with our new STG clearance, we can get all fees for the trial members waived as a governmental cooperation effort with the Turian Hierarchy.
Thank you again for your assistance. Donations like these help keep us running. Per your request, we will keep your donations strictly anonymous.
Sincerely,
Dr. Jelith Kieron
Helos Medical Institute

[Dean_the_Young]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Garrus lacks an identity independent of Shepard because Garrus ends up agreeing or accepting everything Shepard does, same with Anderson. While such characters (and Anderson in particular) are supposed to be Men of Principle, who won't bend their beliefs even if it means breaking the rules, but in practice they are yes-men for the players.

Garrus isn't a man of principle, though. Why does he hate C-Sec and ultimately leave it? Because they couldn't get things done, because red tape got in the way of locking up criminals, because vigilantism is pragmatically better for his goals. Garrus is first and foremost concerned with getting the job done. Shepard is the master of getting the job done, so it makes sense to me that Garrus will become his ultimate bro.

Garrus's principles exist, but primarily are framed by his impatient, impulsive nature. In ME1 he hates C-SEC because he feels the rules get in the way of what's actually important (helping people by stopping the bad guys). While the P/R development does help shape the principles, both Renegade and Paragon Garrus still based around the same idealistic core: it just was supposed to express differently.

Then ME2 came and had even being a Spectre be too much red tape for him, but then ME2 was effectively character regression in my book.

That being said, I agree with you that conflict could have been used to highlight possible differences between Garrus and Shepard. Because there is so little tension between them, their relationship is usually enjoyable (especially with Garrus's sense of humor) but rarely interesting or compelling.

Or, on the other hand it could be frightinging.

(WARNING: SCARY MIND-SCREW)

[ObserverStatus]

People like Garrus because he's impressive.

[spirosz]

bobobo878 wrote...

People like Garrus because he's impressive.

I see what you did there.  

[evilgummybear]

Garrus was a cry baby in ME1. He was new to CSEC & was looking to find the right path. He was always asking shepard for advice on how to do a better job with the law etc..

In ME2 garrus started to shine, with all his past war stories shared with shepard. Personally he has become shepards best buddy always looking out for his back. Thats why garrus is popular as shepards best friend.

As for mordin, everyone loves mordin for comic relief. He pulls the most fantastic hilarious lines in the game.

[Dean_the_Young]

CronoDragoon wrote...

That's a consequence of game design where the player needs to be the one to resolve all issues. Very few games deviate from this (Final Fantasy Tactics comes to mind) but when you have an interactive fiction with only one point of view, that's what has to happen. I don't see her needing help as a failure of her character or the writing; rather I see her willingness to deal with it herself to be a strength of character and writing. Plus, she isn't stupid. If the goddamn Shepard is offering to help, she should say yes.

ME does a decent job introducing other characters without having them be damsals to be saved from danger, though. ME2 did it with just about every other female character: Miranda was helping you, Jack was a tornado of destruction you were chasing after, and helping Samara was framed in terms of keeping her from kicking ass that didn't need to be kicked. Even Kasumi, who explicitly needed a shooter, was able to be introduced to the plot without being rescued from others (or herself).

Besides how Shepard's help is framed (in Jacob's Loyalty Mission, for example, Shepard is really just a taxi service, not a key need from Jacob), there are various other ways that a story can frame a quest other than 'rescue.' Instead of being the defendent, Tali could have been the witness for her own father's trial: rather than finding Tali holed up in a bunker, Tali could have led her men and met Shepard halfway: rather than have the YMIR bossfight and then hope Shepard lets her take Veetor, they could have had the Veetor decision first and then have Tali 'lose control of her men' in order to make a diversion to steal Veetor away from Shepard and Cerberus, sending back the omnitool data as a peace offering.

There are a lot of ways Tali could have been a more successful, proactive, and less-victimized female character. The bosom-emphaisizng design change didn't help in how to cast her.



Tali suffers from a distinct lack of 'tell, don't show', in that she really lacks evidence of her supposed greatness. ME1 never even claimed such, but and ME3 outright called her a token admiral, but even in ME2 as being part of the 'best of the best' Tali never really gets to develop or demonstrate it: she loses control of two teams, has to rely on Shepard to succede at her own job, and even in the Suicide Mission her role is pretty much filled even by non-tech experts, a skill she doesn't show much besides combat skills on. She's definitely a 'must help her' archetype character, which works for some, but it's definitely not a necessity of the narrative.

[Jadebaby]

Garrus is a bro.

end of story.

[Jere85]

Didnt read OP.

Garrus is your bro,
/thread

edit: ohai Jade.

Modifié par Jere85, 09 janvier 2013 - 12:10 .

[AresKeith]

JadeShepard wrote...

Garrus is a bro.

end of story.

And he's the Turian Batman

/thread

[Priss Blackburne]

Garrus is my best buddy, He is the closest thing I'll have to a best friend outside of real life.

Wrex is my inappropriate friend who says the wrong things but makes me laugh out loud about them, making me look bad


edit: Mordin is my crazy really smart friend who every other week  tries to give me mating advice like I'm some lab experiment. I swear he wants me to fill out a report afterwards.

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 09 janvier 2013 - 12:21 .

[cyrexwingblade]

I'd say if Mordin had been in the first game, I'd probably prefer him a little. As it stands, Garrus is my buddy!

[CronoDragoon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
ME does a decent job introducing other characters without having them be damsals to be saved from danger, though. ME2 did it with just about every other female character: Miranda was helping you, Jack was a tornado of destruction you were chasing after, and helping Samara was framed in terms of keeping her from kicking ass that didn't need to be kicked. Even Kasumi, who explicitly needed a shooter, was able to be introduced to the plot without being rescued from others (or herself).

Well, this seems like a little selective wording. Jack is, by definition, a damsel in distress when you meet her. She only escapes because Shepard helps her. Is it different because she doesn't want Shepard's help? I don't think so. Next time she has any significant plot involvement, she's asking for your help, and of course in her loyalty mission she is portrayed as a victim to the extreme.

Kasumi agrees to help you because you can help her get back Keji's graybox. Does she need to be saved from danger when you meet her? No, but neither was Tali in ME3.

But wait, what are we debating here? That every time you see Tali she needs you to save her? Then how do you explain ME3, in which her entrance is that of an admiral? If anything, you could easily argue that by comparing her portrayal in ME1 to her portrayal in ME3, you see real character growth that may indicate an intent to initially frame her as a DiD, but later show her development.

Besides how Shepard's help is framed (in Jacob's Loyalty Mission, for example, Shepard is really just a taxi service, not a key need from Jacob), there are various other ways that a story can frame a quest other than 'rescue.' Instead of being the defendent, Tali could have been the witness for her own father's trial: rather than finding Tali holed up in a bunker, Tali could have led her men and met Shepard halfway: rather than have the YMIR bossfight and then hope Shepard lets her take Veetor, they could have had the Veetor decision first and then have Tali 'lose control of her men' in order to make a diversion to steal Veetor away from Shepard and Cerberus, sending back the omnitool data as a peace offering.

Okay, but by changing these things as you've mentioned, you are not able to isolate her "rescue" as the only important part of these events altered. It is only by Tali's status as a defendent and her subsequent status as "vas Normandy" that you begin to understand the conflict that Tali has between her species and the Normandy.

By having her meet with Shepard in the ways you have described, you are portraying her as someone capable of leading a platoon, or simply being a leader in general. She's not, and that's only indirectly related to her being in need of rescue. The dossiers show the degree to which she feels responsible for the death of her squad, and injects real internal conflict with her newly-minted status as an admiral in ME3. She isn't confident about it, and based on ME2's events, she has little reason to be. 

There are a lot of ways Tali could have been a more successful, proactive, and less-victimized female character. The bosom-emphaisizng design change didn't help in how to cast her.

Now you're just criticizing good storytelling! - Topher

Tali suffers from a distinct lack of 'tell, don't show', in that she really lacks evidence of her supposed greatness. ME1 never even claimed such, but and ME3 outright called her a token admiral, but even in ME2 as being part of the 'best of the best' Tali never really gets to develop or demonstrate it: she loses control of two teams, has to rely on Shepard to succede at her own job, and even in the Suicide Mission her role is pretty much filled even by non-tech experts, a skill she doesn't show much besides combat skills on. She's definitely a 'must help her' archetype character, which works for some, but it's definitely not a necessity of the narrative.

Her greatness is explicitly centered around her knowledge of the geth, not in her leadership ability. This is why she was made an admiral before/during/directly after the reprise of the war on the geth.

[Arisugawa]

I didn't care for Garrus at all in ME1. It was only in ME2 that he grew on me.

[Jadebaby]

Jere85 wrote...

Didnt read OP.

Garrus is your bro,
/thread

edit: ohai Jade.

lol hai!

Fancy that

[Dean_the_Young]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
ME does a decent job introducing other characters without having them be damsals to be saved from danger, though. ME2 did it with just about every other female character: Miranda was helping you, Jack was a tornado of destruction you were chasing after, and helping Samara was framed in terms of keeping her from kicking ass that didn't need to be kicked. Even Kasumi, who explicitly needed a shooter, was able to be introduced to the plot without being rescued from others (or herself).

Well, this seems like a little selective wording. Jack is, by definition, a damsel in distress when you meet her. She only escapes because Shepard helps her. Is it different because she doesn't want Shepard's help? I don't think so. Next time she has any significant plot involvement, she's asking for your help, and of course in her loyalty mission she is portrayed as a victim to the extreme.

I'll concede that wording helps, but I would argue there's a definite difference in depiction of their relative strength. Jack needs your help to get free, but that's because she's so dangerous she's frozen in carbonite to keep her out of the picture. Chained strength versus... well, whatevery ou think Tali has.

Kasumi agrees to help you because you can help her get back Keji's graybox. Does she need to be saved from danger when you meet her? No, but neither was Tali in ME3.

Directly, no, but indirectly the purpose for meeting her is to save her fleet, which she was tragicly powerless to prevent from rushing into disaster. The narrative still plays up her impotency in the context of helping her.

But wait, what are we debating here? That every time you see Tali she needs you to save her? Then how do you explain ME3, in which her entrance is that of an admiral? If anything, you could easily argue that by comparing her portrayal in ME1 to her portrayal in ME3, you see real character growth that may indicate an intent to initially frame her as a DiD, but later show her development.

I think this thread is in response to you talking about Tali not being 'needy.' It's a vague enough term that I thought I'd weigh in with my views that Tali plays a consistently passive role in her interactions with Shepard. ME3's a good example: she's introduced as an Admiral, but quickly it turns out that it's a show-title rather than an earned responsiblity, and that she was impotent to stop a clear mistake from occuring.

Okay, but by changing these things as you've mentioned, you are not able to isolate her "rescue" as the only important part of these events altered. It is only by Tali's status as a defendent and her subsequent status as "vas Normandy" that you begin to understand the conflict that Tali has between her species and the Normandy.

I disagree: 'vas Normandy' didn't have to be a badge of exile proudly warned, but could easily have been earned in other ways. A story of belonging can take many forms, but the way it did emphasized Tali's reliance on Shepard in yet another way.

By having her meet with Shepard in the ways you have described, you are portraying her as someone capable of leading a platoon, or simply being a leader in general. She's not, and that's only indirectly related to her being in need of rescue. The dossiers show the degree to which she feels responsible for the death of her squad, and injects real internal conflict with her newly-minted status as an admiral in ME3. She isn't confident about it, and based on ME2's events, she has little reason to be.

I would argue that she really isn't fit for leadership or responsibility, but I don't think that's the intent I was supposed to perceive. As it is, her repeatedly lack-luster performance consistently puts her into positions completely dependent on Shepard, rather than Shepard providing assistance to something she demonstrates an ability to pursue and succede in herself.

It's a nebulous idea, but a good way to put it is that when a companion could conceivably do the same mission with a teammate other than Shepard beside them, that character is showing a lot more independence than when Shepard is a necessity for success. Two good examples are Miranda and Jacob. Shepard helps Miranda fight through the mercs, yes, but there's never really a point at which Shepard is necessary to do so: Miranda leads the discussion, leads Shepard, and even tosses the enemy boss like a rag doll. Shepard plays a supportive role in Miranda's story. Jacob is similar, and even more accessory: Jacob's mission plays very much like Jacob is the main character, even to the point of how it executes the player's choice.

Now you're just criticizing good storytelling! - Topher

Her greatness is explicitly centered around her knowledge of the geth, not in her leadership ability. This is why she was made an admiral before/during/directly after the reprise of the war on the geth.

Well, ME2 would claim she's a master engineer and a great fighter and... whatever else made her among 'the best of the best'. It certainly wasn't Geth expertise back then.

(Though, honestly, that entire tagline makes me eye-roll.)

[Mello]

Garrus is just awesome. He will be everywhere, on TV, video games, even in our family photo's. Deal with it.

[doodiebody]

I didn't think much of him in the first game. He managed to bromance me in the second game though. Not sure how he did it, but he did.

[CronoDragoon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I'll concede that wording helps, but I would argue there's a definite difference in depiction of their relative strength. Jack needs your help to get free, but that's because she's so dangerous she's frozen in carbonite to keep her out of the picture. Chained strength versus... well, whatevery ou think Tali has.

Shepard's also the only reason she gets off the prison station. If he didn't let her on the Normandy then she's stuck.

Directly, no, but indirectly the purpose for meeting her is to save her fleet, which she was tragicly powerless to prevent from rushing into disaster. The narrative still plays up her impotency in the context of helping her.

 I would find it hard to believe that even as an Admiral Tali could prevent the quarians from going after the geth. That's a strike against her somehow? Even Shepard couldn't prevent the quarians from going after the geth, after all.

I think this thread is in response to you talking about Tali not being 'needy.' It's a vague enough term that I thought I'd weigh in with my views that Tali plays a consistently passive role in her interactions with Shepard. ME3's a good example: she's introduced as an Admiral, but quickly it turns out that it's a show-title rather than an earned responsiblity, and that she was impotent to stop a clear mistake from occuring.

I don't think it's quite fair to compare Tali's inability to solve a centuries-long war between races by herself with Miranda's ability to save her sister from an Eclipse mercenary, as you later do. Tali's story involves much larger plotlines, complications, and consequences. Her solving things without needing Shepard's help would have diminished the reward of the player spending so much time on the geth/quarian conflict.

I disagree: 'vas Normandy' didn't have to be a badge of exile proudly warned, but could easily have been earned in other ways. A story of belonging can take many forms, but the way it did emphasized Tali's reliance on Shepard in yet another way.

How else could this story of belonging specifically have played out? The only other way is for Tali to initially choose the moniker willingly, which she wouldn't do because of the loyalty she feels to her people.

]I would argue that she really isn't fit for leadership or responsibility, but I don't think that's the intent I was supposed to perceive. As it is, her repeatedly lack-luster performance consistently puts her into positions completely dependent on Shepard, rather than Shepard providing assistance to something she demonstrates an ability to pursue and succede in herself.

Okay, starting with ME2, which performances could be classified as lackluster?

The one where her platoon didn't listen to her and paid the price for it?
The one where dropships of geth unexpectedly showed up on Haestrom?
The one where she was unable to convince a race of people wanting a homeland and/or revenge on the geth to stand down by herself?

In none of these situations was Tali waiting for Shepard's help. She was prepared to handle it on her own, but she couldn't. Personally, I value her willingness to handle things herself much more highly than her inability to overcome her challenges which dwarf those of Miranda and Jacob by comparison.

Well, ME2 would claim she's a master engineer and a great fighter and... whatever else made her among 'the best of the best'. It certainly wasn't Geth expertise back then.

She's demonstrably all of those things, capably employed as lead engineer on the Normandy while standing besides Shepard as he fought and defeated Saren and the Collectors. But she was elected Admiral for her geth expertise.

[CronoDragoon]

Anyway, sorry to derail the Garrus bro thread.

[PsiMatrix]

One main reason I can think of:


But seriously; he's the good-cop to your bad cop or at the very least buddy cop. He's a great friend and sounding board. And at the heart of it; he's your bro.

As in the above; he takes you up because you need it and he doesn't care about the regs when the Reapers are breathing down our collective necks. When you miss on purpose he screams out "I'm Garrus Vakarian.." and you can't help but smile at that point.

Garrus Vakarian, king of the bottle-shooters.

[cydoniawarrior]

Cause he's my bro, that is all.

[garrusfan1]

It is because if you don't like garrus your breaking the law since not liking garrus is illegal in all 50 states and in europe

[EnvyTB075]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or, on the other hand it could be frightinging.

(WARNING: SCARY MIND-SCREW)

Nope.....noppe.....nopenope.....nopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenope WHOLE LOTTA NOPE PLZ NO.

[avalanche16fd]

solidsnake78 wrote...

I kinda lost interest in Garrus by the end of ME2, dont know why.

Was it by any chance calibrations getting in the way?
For example,
A day's worth of conversation with distracted Garrus:

Shepard: Hi Garrus!
Garrus: ...

Shepard: Garrus you got a minute?
Garrus: Can it wait for a bit?
Shepard: (i suppose)

Shepard: I really need to talk to someone who isn't Liara
Garrus: I'm in th middle of some calibrations, come back later?

LATER
Shepard: Can't deal with Liara's monotonic voice any longer *Gunshot* Critical Mission Failure

Did sometimeS feel in ME2 he would just give Shep the cold shoulder...or maybe it's me I don't know:?

[Mobuse]

No idea...I never used him in my first ME 1 playthrough...I did all the talks with him but found them really boring....

I have kinda warmed up to him by now, but he's still far from my favourite....