367 réponses à ce sujet

[robtheguru]

It's because even after all the stuff Humanity and the Turians went through, the two of them get beyond that and become close mates.

Personally I wouldn't say Garrus is my favourite squadmate but he's second.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]CronoDragoon wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
I'll concede that wording helps, but I would argue there's a definite difference in depiction of their relative strength. Jack needs your help to get free, but that's because she's so dangerous she's frozen in carbonite to keep her out of the picture. Chained strength versus... well, whatevery ou think Tali has.[/quote]

Shepard's also the only reason she gets off the prison station. If he didn't let her on the Normandy then she's stuck.
[/quote]Sure, but she still succedes at demonstrating more ability and success up to the point that Shepard offers help. That's the point.
[quote]
[quote]Directly, no, but indirectly the purpose for meeting her is to save her fleet, which she was tragicly powerless to prevent from rushing into disaster. The narrative still plays up her impotency in the context of helping her.[/quote]

 I would find it hard to believe that even as an Admiral Tali could prevent the quarians from going after the geth. That's a strike against her somehow? Even Shepard couldn't prevent the quarians from going after the geth, after all.[/quote]Just that frame of reference is highlighting the skewed standards. A Quairan Admiral is now equivlent to an alien outside the Migrant Fleet?

Tali doesn't have to be entirely successful, but she can certainly show some form of results. As it is, even her nominal reason for being an Admiral in the first place doesn't make sense, as Xen is a far better qualified expert into Geth software, and Garrel a better military leader.

[quote]
I don't think it's quite fair to compare Tali's inability to solve a centuries-long war between races by herself with Miranda's ability to save her sister from an Eclipse mercenary, as you later do. Tali's story involves much larger plotlines, complications, and consequences. Her solving things without needing Shepard's help would have diminished the reward of the player spending so much time on the geth/quarian conflict.[/quote]We aren't comparing Tali's inability to solve a centuries-long war by herself. We're comparing Tali's inability to make credible progress in solving just about every single problem she is in when she is introduced back into the plot.

[quote]
How else could this story of belonging specifically have played out? The only other way is for Tali to initially choose the moniker willingly, which she wouldn't do because of the loyalty she feels to her people.[/quote]Simple: don't treat it as if it's a mark of shame in the first place to be a part of a non-Quarian ship. They could easily bring up Quarian pilgrims who decide to stay outside the Migrant Fleet for various reasons, still proud to be Quarian but having made other connections as well. Or Quarians who are assigned official roles outside the fleet with other species.

The idea that it was a shame was one created and introduced in ME2.

[quote]
Okay, starting with ME2, which performances could be classified as lackluster?

The one where her platoon didn't listen to her and paid the price for it?[/quote]That's the worst, actually. Not only couldn't she keep control of her men, but she pretty much stands by if terrorists take the citizen and then forgives the one responsible for it promptly.
[quote]
The one where dropships of geth unexpectedly showed up on Haestrom?[/quote]It's their own world, so it can hardly be unexpected, but the bigger sin of depiction is that Tali is locked away in a bunker rather than any indication of leading in the defense.
[quote]
The one where she was unable to convince a race of people wanting a homeland and/or revenge on the geth to stand down by herself?[/quote]The frank admission that she received and accepted such a promotion because of who she was related to, not for unique ability or earned.
[quote]
In none of these situations was Tali waiting for Shepard's help. She was prepared to handle it on her own, but she couldn't. Personally, I value her willingness to handle things herself much more highly than her inability to overcome her challenges which dwarf those of Miranda and Jacob by comparison.[/quote]Her inability to successfully lead but to try anyways makes you value her?

Uh, sure. Ok.

[quote]
She's demonstrably all of those things, capably employed as lead engineer on the Normandy while standing besides Shepard as he fought and defeated Saren and the Collectors. But she was elected Admiral for her geth expertise.
[/quote]Ok, but where do any of these show her qualifications as the best of the best?


Tali is named lead engineer on the Normandy, but where do we see her demonstrating any skills, let alone best of the best quality? We see her be an on-ship engineer about as much as we see her be an Admiral, and what we do see is something not unique to her.

In ME1, Tali was never recruited or marked as an exemplar of her species, in combat or out. She was the Quarian Archetype character, but her training and ability was completely removed from why she was on Shepard's team. In ME2 they tried to claim that Shepard's team was filled with the best, but there was precious little to suggest they actually were: even with different Hold the Line scores or Loyalties, even people who contributed nothing to the score (Tali at 0 versus Tali at 1) can succede and survive.

You're falling into the trap of relying on the claims, not the shown. Tali is claimed to be a great engineer, but the closest we see to it is that she can get the Collector Base doors closed a few seconds faster than someone who isn't a great engineer. She's a companion character who survives fighting along Shepard... but then, so does Liara, and Liara certainly isn't one of the best of the best combat veterans in the galaxy. It falls back to being a claim the game makes, but does little to support.

[MuhidinSaid]

Because he's banging Tali, femshep, dr.michel, and Eve behind Wrex's back, that's why.

[Wulfram]

Tali works a lot better in ME3 when she's not shoehorned into the admiralcy. Being an impotent Admiral, who still basically acts as subordinate to the real admirals, makes her seem weaker.

[416Leafer]

garrusfan1 wrote...

It is because if you don't like garrus your breaking the law since not liking garrus is illegal in all 50 states and in europe

Good thing I'm Canadian then.

[tg0618]

StayFrosty05 wrote...


If I remember correctly Garrus didn't reach the absolute fandom he has achieved until the advent of ME2...though I could be wrong, so don't quote me on that.....And remembering my days from the ME2 forums, his popularity was most prevelant among female gamers....I guess guys had the Blue Space Babes, girls had the Turians....there was quite a bit of discussion on that, men asking women about Turien appeal....Then Garrus got his further boost as a Space Batman kind of persona in ME2....and the rest you could say is history.......I'm  female gamer by the way....note my Avatar.....

Ahh. So you're speaking from experience I see.





And as far as the question goes, I think he is just well written and they display his loyalty really well. Garrus, Tali, and Liara (due to the LotSB DLC) are the only characters in all 3 Mass Effects in any meaningful capacity. That's why he's one of my favorite ME characters. Just my opinion, though.

Modifié par Tony0618, 09 janvier 2013 - 11:26 .

[CronoDragoon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sure, but she still succedes at demonstrating more ability and success up to the point that Shepard offers help. That's the point.

No, she doesn't. If it weren't for Shepard wreaking havoc, and eventually getting her on his ship, she's still screwed in cryo. That's the point: she's a damsel in distress that Shepard has to save. The fact that she tries anyway despite getting no meaningful results is irrelevant, by your own standards for Tali, right?

We aren't comparing Tali's inability to solve a centuries-long war by herself. We're comparing Tali's inability to make credible progress in solving just about every single problem she is in when she is introduced back into the plot.

Oh no, but you specifically did do that when you reduced her ME3 plotline to "needing to be saved." By comparison you brought up Miranda and Jacob's loyalty missions, during which both would have been killed without Shepard. Don't believe me? Send in Miranda by herself during gameplay and see what happens.

Simple: don't treat it as if it's a mark of shame in the first place to be a part of a non-Quarian ship. They could easily bring up Quarian pilgrims who decide to stay outside the Migrant Fleet for various reasons, still proud to be Quarian but having made other connections as well. Or Quarians who are assigned official roles outside the fleet with other species.

A development of much less impact, if you ask me. The part I love about the name thing is that while it's treated as a mark of shame at the beginning of the trial, by the end Tali has accepted it, and if you romance her in ME3 her final lines reveal that she considers the Normandy to be her home. Your version of this development of Tali's belonging is less impactful because there is less tension and conflict within it.

That's the worst, actually. Not only couldn't she keep control of her men, but she pretty much stands by if terrorists take the citizen and then forgives the one responsible for it promptly.

Again, she's not a leader. However I'll also point out that she's not in need of saving during this mission, as you previously claimed. As for the terrorist part, I've only played the Renagade version of the scene through once so I don't remember any specifics but I'll take your word for it that she's too passive about it.

It's their own world, so it can hardly be unexpected, but the bigger sin of depiction is that Tali is locked away in a bunker rather than any indication of leading in the defense.

She has the data. You know, their entire reason for being there.

The frank admission that she received and accepted such a promotion because of who she was related to, not for unique ability or earned.

She didn't accept the promotion because of her father, she accepted the promotion because she wanted to try and keep the war from happening. Blaming her character for receiving the promotion is just blaming her for the way others act towards her, instead of evaluating her actions.

Her inability to successfully lead but to try anyways makes you value her?

Uh, sure. Ok.

Yes. Obviously. But to frame it another way: her willingness to run missions for her people because she knows it will benefit them, the degree to which she cares for and feels responsible for her squad and their deaths, are both positive character traits that balance her flaws; namely her inability to lead and a lack of political suaveness to exert her will in quarian politics.

Ok, but where do any of these show her qualifications as the best of the best?

Tali is named lead engineer on the Normandy, but where do we see her demonstrating any skills, let alone best of the best quality? We see her be an on-ship engineer about as much as we see her be an Admiral, and what we do see is something not unique to her.

She upgrades the Normandy with multi-core shielding, allowing it to pass through the debris field in the Suicide Mission without damaging the power core and killing a squad member.

In ME1, Tali was never recruited or marked as an exemplar of her species, in combat or out. She was the Quarian Archetype character, but her training and ability was completely removed from why she was on Shepard's team. In ME2 they tried to claim that Shepard's team was filled with the best, but there was precious little to suggest they actually were: even with different Hold the Line scores or Loyalties, even people who contributed nothing to the score (Tali at 0 versus Tali at 1) can succede and survive.

You're falling into the trap of relying on the claims, not the shown. Tali is claimed to be a great engineer, but the closest we see to it is that she can get the Collector Base doors closed a few seconds faster than someone who isn't a great engineer. She's a companion character who survives fighting along Shepard... but then, so does Liara, and Liara certainly isn't one of the best of the best combat veterans in the galaxy. It falls back to being a claim the game makes, but does little to support.

I don't claim that she's the best of the best, but ME2 was just as much about loyalty as expertise. Tali is probably the best engineer that would join a Cerberus mission out of loyalty to Shepard.

It sounds to me like your real problem with Tali is how she is perceived by others in the game; you think that by some morsels of praise she receives that makes her a sort of Mary Sue. You think that the way she is perceived is widely inaccurate from how she is portrayed. I can see this based on the fact that, out of a discussion of Tali being "needy", which is actually not so ambiguous a word as you claim, you shifted the discussion to her needing to be saved, to her character in general and how underwhelming you feel her actions are considering the praise she receives.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 09 janvier 2013 - 04:25 .

[garrusfan1]

416Leafer wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

It is because if you don't like garrus your breaking the law since not liking garrus is illegal in all 50 states and in europe

Good thing I'm Canadian then.

It is illegal in every provence except Quebec (is it Provence or did I get it wrong) 

[simonrana]

I completely agree with your points Dean_the_Young. CronoDragoon it doesn't have to be a bad thing for Tali to be a damsel in distress you know, a lot of people like that! And that is how she's been cast for most of the series (not so much in ME3 admittedly).

You may be able to rationalise her competence with explanations but it doesn't change the fact that what the game "shows" us of Tali much of the time is a damsel in distress.

Our first introduction to her is having to save her (though admittedly they did that with all 3 females and none of the males in ME1). In our very first meeting in ME2 we she's "depicted" as being incapable of controlling her team, and shortly after we see her team get battered. Then the next time we see her we have to save her again - she's locked in a little bunker whilst all the other Quarians sacrifice themselves to keep her alive. Then you recruit her and one conversation later she's back to "Shepard I need your help" (though admittedly they pretty much all do that bit).

Contrast this against Jack, who you're are trying to cast as a damsel in distress for some reason. In our first encounter we "see" her rip out of her bonds and obliterate a load of heavy mechs. You can justify that we "technically" had to save her if you like but can you really not see that her first depiction is of a total badass, not a girl that needs that needs Shepard to come save her from the bad men?!

Modifié par simonrana, 09 janvier 2013 - 05:04 .

[Son-Gohan]

 He's my mate. My buddy. My brother in war. My backup. And he's cool.


This.

[CronoDragoon]

simonrana wrote...

I completely agree with your points Dean_the_Young. CronoDragoon it doesn't have to be a bad thing for Tali to be a damsel in distress you know, a lot of people like that! And that is how she's been cast for most of the series (not so much in ME3 admittedly).

Yes, but moreso in the first two games than the third as you say, which I see as character development and Dean sees as a stain against her character, as if only characters who succeed at what they are trying to do are good characters.

You may be able to rationalise her competence with explanations but it doesn't change the fact that what the game "shows" us of Tali much of the time is a damsel in distress.

Which game? Mass Effect 1 and parts of 2? Sure.

Then you recruit her and one conversation later she's back to "Shepard I need your help" (though admittedly they pretty much all do that bit).

As I've shown, this is actually incorrect for Tali. She never asks for Shepard's help, She informs him she's been charged with treason and he decides to help her. She was planning on going back alone so as not to divert his mission (which demonstrates more awareness than Miranda, Jacob, Jack, etc)

Contrast this against Jack, who you're are trying to cast as a damsel in distress for some reason. In our first encounter we "see" her rip out of her bonds and obliterate a load of heavy mechs. You can justify that we "technically" had to save her if you like but can you really not see that her first depiction is of a total badass, not a girl that needs that needs Shepard to come save her from the bad men?!

Except she is a girl that needed Shepard to come save her from the bad men. She's a badass certainly, but that irrelevant to the POINT of the mission - which is to save her from the prison - and the OUTCOME of the mission - which is Shepard freeing her. So she broke her bonds and destroyed some mechs. She only got out of cryo because Shepard turned it off, and she'd be fuming all badass-like on the prison still until backup arrived if it wasn't for Shepard.

I want you to look at Jack's mission and see what would have actually happened to her without Shepard, instead of how much she cursed and prowled around. It's a rescue mission that she would have been powerless to solve herself.

To summarize about Tali: There is a difference between a damsel in distress character and a character who has needed rescue a few times in the series. To simplify Tali's character like that is like saying Garrus is just the comic relief character.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 09 janvier 2013 - 05:35 .

[Seducing-Pinata]

garrusfan1 wrote...

It is illegal in every provence except Quebec (is it Provence or did I get it wrong) 

Almost right. Province. 

[CDR David Shepard]

There is no such thing as "overrated" when talking about characters people like.

Just because you do not like the character...doesn't mean the character is "overrated".

It just means you don't like a character that others do.

Modifié par CDR David Shepard, 09 janvier 2013 - 05:52 .

[Cuttlebone]

The voice.

[simonrana]

CronoDragoon wrote...

As I've shown, this is actually incorrect for Tali. She never asks for Shepard's help, She informs him she's been charged with treason and he decides to help her. She was planning on going back alone so as not to divert his mission (which demonstrates more awareness than Miranda, Jacob, Jack, etc)

Contrast this against Jack, who you're are trying to cast as a damsel in distress for some reason. In our first encounter we "see" her rip out of her bonds and obliterate a load of heavy mechs. You can justify that we "technically" had to save her if you like but can you really not see that her first depiction is of a total badass, not a girl that needs that needs Shepard to come save her from the bad men?!

Except she is a girl that needed Shepard to come save her from the bad men. She's a badass certainly, but that irrelevant to the POINT of the mission - which is to save her from the prison - and the OUTCOME of the mission - which is Shepard freeing her. So she broke her bonds and destroyed some mechs. She only got out of cryo because Shepard turned it off, and she'd be fuming all badass-like on the prison still until backup arrived if it wasn't for Shepard.

I want you to look at Jack's mission and see what would have actually happened to her without Shepard, instead of how much she cursed and prowled around. It's a rescue mission that she would have been powerless to solve herself.

To summarize about Tali: There is a difference between a damsel in distress character and a character who has needed rescue a few times in the series. To simplify Tali's character like that is like saying Garrus is just the comic relief character.

Okay I've gone back and looked again at what Tali says when she brings up her loyalty quest - it's "I'm glad you came by, I may need your help", I guess that's somewhere in the middle of our different claims, so I can at least see why you interpreted it differently to me.

As for your stance on Jack we're just going to have to agree to disagree - we're just looking at this from completely different angles. You're basing your feelings on the character on big picture rationalisations, I'm doing it by what I'm shown directly on screen. Clearly we just look at things differently. For the record though I think the word "save" Jack from prison is a bit of a distortion though. The damsel in distress scenario usually involves a "heroic" rescue - not "buying" the damsel out of prison!

[clarkusdarkus]

always preferred wrex in ME1, then got shorthanded with that in ME2/3 so never really had a connection to garrus as ash was always in my team in ME1 and in ME2 they're were an abundance to choose from so no, garrus isnt for me but if i ever replay the series i'll know now to have him as his in all 3 games

[CronoDragoon]

simonrana wrote...
As for your stance on Jack we're just going to have to agree to disagree - we're just looking at this from completely different angles. You're basing your feelings on the character on big picture rationalisations, I'm doing it by what I'm shown directly on screen. Clearly we just look at things differently. For the record though I think the word "save" Jack from prison is a bit of a distortion though. The damsel in distress scenario usually involves a "heroic" rescue - not "buying" the damsel out of prison!

Well, I think we have further discussion here and don't necessarily have to resort to agreeing to disagree.

We've been painting a pretty big brush with the "damsel in distress" scenario in this thread. I sort of responded to the claim that Tali's story in ME3 is a "rescue" by pointing out that Jack's introduction into the story is clearly more of a rescue than Tali in ME3. Ultimately it's going to depend on how you identify the characteristics of a "rescue" scenario.

Here is my criteria:

1. The character could not have escaped the trap/prison/danger by themselves. I take danger in this sense to be a specific danger or trap, and not an abstract one such as "Tali is involved in a war that she can't end herself, so she needs Shepard."

2. Another character takes action such that they are responsible for character A's escape from their situation.

This constitutes a rescue mission for me. Garrus's recruitment obviously turns out to be such as well. But looking at Jack's situation, it's hard not to see a rescue mission, and by extension her being the rescue-ee characterized in this thread as a "damsel in distress" due to her gender.
1. If Shepard doesn't release her from cryo, she never gets a chance to break her bonds and even make a run for it.
2. If Shepard doesn't take her aboard his ship, she sits there without transport until backup is sent. Conceivably, I suppose, she could overpower backup and take their ship, but since Jack agrees with Shepard's assessment of the situation that she has no chance (despite mind you being in a Cerberus ship) I think she estimates her chances to be low in this regard.

It seems to me that the degree to which the potential rescue-ee can wreak havoc while still not being able to free themselves matters to you in terms of their status as a rescue-ee. It doesn't to me, because as you said, big-picture the result would have been the same if after release she merely cried and waited for Shepard to come free her from her bonds.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

Because he has that Bioware "Bro personality" cut out. Like Oghren from Dragon Age.

Team used to be Ashely and Garrus, but now it's Liara and Garrus. Always Garrus...

[StayFrosty05]

SilentK wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...
Never touched her in ME1 myself...didn'r like her at all...ME3 though....just WOW!...Ash is very cool....[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]....From
what I am gathering unfortunately it doesn't make much of a diffenrence
as to whenther you ramonace Ash in ME1 all the way through, or just
ME2....I would have liked to have seen those who stuck by her through
the series get a little extra something.

Me likey      this sounds great. Ohh.. does she have to be romanced to see the cool side. Hoping to have a Sisters-In-Arms-thing or something like that with Ash?

I ended up having my Shep romance her because of her pre-romance behavior in ME3....I know by romancing her he did get a swath of extra content out of her....After her lunch date on the Citadel, from what I understand that's pretty much the end of the line of Ash content...but when has it not been that way in regards to a squaddie....

ME3 I think it's only Garrus and Liara (from the original crew) who get extra content no matter the LI status isn't it?

[StayFrosty05]

CronoDragoon wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...
Its' because the female characters have three types only....ruthless or needy or a combination of both....a woman does not have to be ruthless to be strong (am female myself)....and feel the mostly male crew of BW writers really missied the mark....They finally got it much righter...not perfect, but much closer with ME3 Ash.

This isn't fair. Tali is neither ruthless nor needy. The two times you help her, she was planning on doing things by herself until Shepard decided he was going to help. Remember on the loyalty mission she was planning to book passage on a separate ship and fly back to face the treason trial by herself.

It seems in my absense you have copped quite a lot of flak CronoDragoon in relation to your response to my comment.......so I won't be re-hashing...I do not necessarily agree with every point made by others, but do agree with enough of their points to leave it and not inflame again what needs to now rest.

Modifié par StayFrosty05, 11 janvier 2013 - 02:20 .

[iOnlySignIn]

He's always calm. He's unquestioningly loyal. 

I can't think of another ME squad mate who has both of those qualities. Qualities I greatly value and admire. 

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 11 janvier 2013 - 02:21 .

[mjh417]

The answer is simple.... Garrus is LIKE A BOSS

[garrusfan1]

Because garrus is the baddest mother f***er around