367 réponses à ce sujet

[Bob from Accounting]

I'm not sure if I've already said this in this thread, but the idea that Garrus is popular primarily because he never disagrees with the player is frankly just silly and very poorly thought out. It should be obvious that characters like Jacob exist which are more agreeable to the player, yet don't share in his popularity even remotely.

[von uber]

Of course, it reinforces the non-canoncity of 'evil' playthroughs, which is desirable.

Sorry, but that's complete bobbins.

[Bob from Accounting]

Not at all.

 

I can't think of a single game where 'evil' players are truly 'realistically' treated. They can't. Because the plot has to function. The characters have to function. How quickly would a story collapse if everyone shunned or outright attacked the player as they 'realistically' should if he does horrendoes things?

 

Pretty much every game with decisions only really works if you play as a good character. Otherwise you have to conjure up all sorts of mental gynastics as to why decent people still help you.

[DeinonSlayer]

Not at all.

I can't think of a single game where 'evil' players are truly 'realistically' treated. They can't. Because the plot has to function. The characters have to function. How quickly would a story collapse if everyone shunned or outright attacked the player as they 'realistically' should if he does horrendoes things?

Pretty much every game with decisions only really works if you play as a good character. Otherwise you have to conjure up all sorts of mental gynastics as to why decent people still help you.

* Morrigan can be driven out of our party almost immediately. Will also leave if betrayed to the Templars at the Circle Tower.
* Sten will fight you and try to assume command if brought to Haven, and can be booted from your party at that point.
* Both Leliana and Wynne will leave your party if you defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Leliana will fight you to the death if she is present when you do this, I'm not certain, but I think Wynne might as well. Major disapproval triggers are... well, there's a lot of them.
* If Zevran's approval of you is too low, he'll side with a former associate from the Crows who turns up in Denerim with the mission of killing you. You can tell Zevran to leave your party at any point in camp, but he'll refuse to do so, and ultimately you'll have to kill him before he'll break his vow. Major disapproval trigger is the genocide of the Dalish elves.
* Alistair can be betrayed at the Landsmeet, and carted off to be executed. Major disapproval trigger is killing Connor or Isolde at Redcliffe Castle. Refuses to have sex with Morrigan (dark ritual) if your approval isn't near the top of the chart.
* Shale will try to kill you if your disapproval rating gets too high (do NOT treat the Golem like property), or if you side with Branka at the Anvil of the Void.

All of them have vastly different fates in the epilogue depending on actions taken throughout, and their approval ratings. This completely ignores the fates of the various factions and side-characters you encounter. Like I'd said earlier, I'm pretty sure Oghren is the only one who doesn't either leave or try to kill you if you screw with him. Doing and saying things the others find reprehensible (in accordance with their individual and often clashing moral codes) has tangeable consequences.

But what do I know, right? This is of course impossible.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

* Morrigan can be driven out of our party almost immediately. Will also leave if betrayed to the Templars at the Circle Tower.
* Sten will fight you and try to assume command if brought to Haven, and can be booted from your party at that point.
* Both Leliana and Wynne will leave your party if you defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Leliana will fight you to the death if she is present when you do this, I'm not certain, but I think Wynne might as well. Major disapproval triggers are... well, there's a lot of them.
* If Zevran's approval of you is too low, he'll side with a former associate from the Crows who turns up in Denerim with the mission of killing you. You can tell Zevran to leave your party at any point in camp, but he'll refuse to do so, and ultimately kill you. Major disapproval trigger is the genocide of the Dalish elves.
* Alistair can be betrayed at the Landsmeet, and carted off to be executed. Major disapproval trigger is killing Connor or Isolde at Redcliffe Castle.
* Shale will try to kill you if your disapproval rating gets too high (do NOT treat the Golem like property), or if you side with Branka at the Anvil of the Void.

All of them have vastly different fates in the epilogue depending on actions taken throughout, and their approval ratings. This completely ignores the fates of the various factions and side-characters you encounter. Like I'd said earlier, I'm pretty sure Oghren is the only one who doesn't either leave or try to kill you if you screw with him. Doing and saying things the others find reprehensible (in accordance with their individual and often clashing moral codes) has tangeable consequences.

But what do I know, right? This is of course impossible.

 

Oghren doesnt screw with you like that because he doesnt have any place else to go since he's a Surface Dwarf and not welcome in Orzammar any more. Hell, the first thing that comes to mind for him when he has his issues at home with Felsi is to come find the Warden/Warden-Commander (only making the distinction cause someone probably played the Orlesian Warden) and ask to join up.

[Mordokai]

Baldur's Gate also has party members leaving if your reputation falls too low. I believe certain members(Jaheira and Keldorn come to mind) leave if certain set of circumstances is met, but it's been long time since I've played, so I can't claim for sure.

 

But they will leave if you're too much of an a-hole.

[KaiserShep]

Not at all.

 

I can't think of a single game where 'evil' players are truly 'realistically' treated. They can't. Because the plot has to function. The characters have to function. How quickly would a story collapse if everyone shunned or outright attacked the player as they 'realistically' should if he does horrendoes things?

 

You should actually try Dragon Age...

 

If by evil, you mean doing heinous things left and right for no good reason to everyone, like knifing Bann Teagan or taking a Ferelden Steamer on Arl Eamon's chest in front of all the Redcliffe knights, then sure, the plot would begin to collapse in on itself, but how you treat companions and less consequential NPC's is a different story. The plot can largely function independently of them just fine.

 

 

Pretty much every game with decisions only really works if you play as a good character. Otherwise you have to conjure up all sorts of mental gynastics as to why decent people still help you.

 

This isn't hard. Some allies are simply not subject to your malicious acts (like some political or military leaders, lords, whatever), while others who are bound by necessity/duty will stick around longer, and others who are less so will either turn on you or leave your group.

[ImaginaryMatter]

* Morrigan can be driven out of our party almost immediately. Will also leave if betrayed to the Templars at the Circle Tower.
* Sten will fight you and try to assume command if brought to Haven, and can be booted from your party at that point.
* Both Leliana and Wynne will leave your party if you defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Leliana will fight you to the death if she is present when you do this, I'm not certain, but I think Wynne might as well. Major disapproval triggers are... well, there's a lot of them.
* If Zevran's approval of you is too low, he'll side with a former associate from the Crows who turns up in Denerim with the mission of killing you. You can tell Zevran to leave your party at any point in camp, but he'll refuse to do so, and ultimately you'll have to kill him before he'll break his vow. Major disapproval trigger is the genocide of the Dalish elves.
* Alistair can be betrayed at the Landsmeet, and carted off to be executed. Major disapproval trigger is killing Connor or Isolde at Redcliffe Castle. Refuses to have sex with Morrigan (dark ritual) if your approval isn't near the top of the chart.
* Shale will try to kill you if your disapproval rating gets too high (do NOT treat the Golem like property), or if you side with Branka at the Anvil of the Void.

All of them have vastly different fates in the epilogue depending on actions taken throughout, and their approval ratings. This completely ignores the fates of the various factions and side-characters you encounter. Like I'd said earlier, I'm pretty sure Oghren is the only one who doesn't either leave or try to kill you if you screw with him. Doing and saying things the others find reprehensible (in accordance with their individual and often clashing moral codes) has tangeable consequences.

But what do I know, right? This is of course impossible.

 

You're being childish, silly, and ridiculous.

[DeinonSlayer]

You're being childish, silly, and ridiculous.

"With my last breath... I scoff at thee!"

[zestalyn]

I'm not sure if I've already said this in this thread, but the idea that Garrus is popular primarily because he never disagrees with the player is frankly just silly and very poorly thought out. It should be obvious that characters like Jacob exist which are more agreeable to the player, yet don't share in his popularity even remotely.

 

I don't think the consensus was ever about Garrus never "disagreeing" with Shep, but more about his unwavering faith in you for getting things done for the greater good and respecting your decisions (and not being a total fool like ME2 Kaidan/Ash ). Respect doesn't equal agreement.

There's also a pretty strong consensus that Garrus is just freakin cool as sh*t, as well as useful in combat, whereas less popular folks like Jacob are totally not. I think it's pretty clear that on the internets people are talking more about Garrus's overall personality/friendship/sexiness rather than being Shepard's doormat....which he can't even be compared to. Someone like Jacob is more equivalent to a doormat (hence less popular) because he's just not nearly as personable of a character.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Let us not forget KotOR, where you have to kill Bindo, Juhani, Mission, Carth, and Zaalbar if you go dark side. 

Then we have KotOR 2, which I think is a better game, where they don't turn on you, which is explained pretty well actually, but you can't train a good amount of them in the Force if you're either A. a dick to them or B. killing for fun. 

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Let us not forget KotOR, where you have to kill Bindo, Juhani, Mission, Carth, and Zaalbar if you go dark side. 

Then we have KotOR 2, which I think is a better game, where they don't turn on you, which is explained pretty well actually, but you can't train a good amount of them in the Force if you're either A. a dick to them or B. killing for fun. 

 

You can Dark Side train many of the possible crew members that are able actually. Just takes alot of influence to do so.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

You can Dark Side train many of the possible crew members that are able actually. Just takes a lot of influence to do so.

You only need influence to train them. The problem is, with Atton, Mira, and the Disciple you won't get influence being a dick and killing people. 

It's a good system. 

[I Tsunayoshi I]

You only need influence to train them. The problem is, with Atton, Mira, and the Disciple you won't get influence being a dick and killing people. 

It's a good system. 

 

I've Dark Side'd Atton, so I know its possible. Its obscenely hard to do, but possible if you can dig into his back story enough.

 

Mira is a moot point since if you are Dark Side, she gets replaced in the party. Disciple is only relevant if you are playing F!Exile, otherwise you have the Handmaiden and she is also DS trainable.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I don't mean dark side, I mean being a dick to them in person and being vicious. 

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I don't mean dark side, I mean being a dick to them in person and being vicious. 

 

Problem. DS pretty much is vicious by nature, so by your logic it would be impossible to train any of the new jedi candidates by being what the character has to be.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Problem. DS pretty much is vicious by nature, so by your logic it would be impossible to train any of the new jedi candidates by being what the character has to be.

You can get your dark side increased without slaughtering people in the game, I'd know. 

[I Tsunayoshi I]

You can get your dark side increased without slaughtering people in the game, I'd know. 

 

Usually through malicious and vicious acts. Where did I imply that mindless violence was the solution?

[WillieStyle]

 Why does Garrus seem to be by far the most popular character? 

 

Archangel.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Like people said, Garrus worships the ground Shepard walks on so it's no surprise he is the fan favourite. Plus he fits all the ~omg he is my bff an he is so cool, bro to da max".

 

I really like Garrus and romanced him on my main playthrough but I still don't see what the fuss is all about. I much prefer characters who disagree with your character and voice their opinions, tbh. Which is why I still would've loved a disapproval/approval system in ME. 

[KaiserShep]

Which is why I still would've loved a disapproval/approval system in ME. 

 

I think the lack of one is the issue behind a lot of problems people have with certain characters (such as the blue nameless one), but even then Garrus could go through the same thing. Varric is such a character that is clearly geared to be your buddy, even with the friendship/rivalry system in place. But anyway, I agree with you. Having this system makes the characters more colorful and "alive". It'd be nice to have different responses at the same point in the game depending on how you've treated this character, or others in front of him/her.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Like people said, Garrus worships the ground Shepard walks on so it's no surprise he is the fan favourite. Plus he fits all the ~omg he is my bff an he is so cool, bro to da max".

 

I really like Garrus and romanced him on my main playthrough but I still don't see what the fuss is all about. I much prefer characters who disagree with your character and voice their opinions, tbh. Which is why I still would've loved a disapproval/approval system in ME. 

 

Shepard is space Jesus though, and a space Jesus can't have his apostles offering up dissent.

[Ryriena]

Shepard is space Jesus though, and a space Jesus can't have his apostles offering up dissent.

He's not space Jesus to me. I got rid of that **** in my rewrite.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

I think the lack of one is the issue behind a lot of problems people have with certain characters (such as the blue nameless one), but even then Garrus could go through the same thing. Varric is such a character that is clearly geared to be your buddy, even with the friendship/rivalry system in place. But anyway, I agree with you. Having this system makes the characters more colorful and "alive". It'd be nice to have different responses at the same point in the game depending on how you've treated this character, or others in front of him/her.

 

 

Yeah, that's true. I feel like it really would have given characters more life, and give us a indepth look of their morality and see how they surprise us. I'm a sucker for companions so more interaction would have been great, especially for the DLC characters.

 

Personally, I didn't really feel strongly for Varric. He wasn't that interesting of a character and a lot of people thought of him in high regard but I was mainly "eh". I especially rolled my eyes where it hinted he was more pro-templar since I'm all for mage rights, but that's more individual thoughts.

 

Maybe Garrus would be still well liked but people wouldn't be so oblivious to his flaws, if that kind of system was in place, imo. Like Anders all about mage freedom but getting approval when you send Fenris back with Danarius, no one could ignore that.

[Bob from Accounting]

I think people here have very little awareness of why people like characters.

 

Garrus is popular primarily because he's competent. Because he's hypercompetent. Because he demonstrates great courage and skill in setting up his vigilant operation and has a professional and charismatic attitude throughout the series that supports that competence.

 

All this 'worships the ground Shepard walks on' is entirely drivel. And demonstrates a rather poor understanding of simple cause and effect. Nearly all of the 'best friends' lines are present in ME 3 and almost certainly added in response to most players reacting very postively to Garrus in ME 2 and requesting such content.