218 réponses à ce sujet

[2112.rush]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Who cares? Did all of you also complain when no Reapers shot the Normandy on Earth at the beginning of the game? Of course not, because that would have been stupid.

Yes, I did actually, and so did many other people.

[CronoDragoon]

2112.rush wrote...

Yes, I did actually, and so did many other people.

No, they didn't. If you'd like to show I'm wrong, please link the threads created about this where "many other people" were complaining about it.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 08 janvier 2013 - 06:35 .

[2112.rush]

CronoDragoon wrote...

2112.rush wrote...

Yes, I did actually, and so did many other people.

No, they didn't. If you'd like to show I'm wrong, please link the threads created about this where "many other people" were complaining about it.

Here's one thread. I could find more, but I don't feel like digging for old threads.

[eduardogranja]

I never understood why not use the Kodiak for extraction, both at the beginning and at the end... Seriously, A extraction vehicle would be a target, but compared to Makos and gunships flying to the beam, it would be reasonable for it to get your squad and go away

[2112.rush]

eduardogranja wrote...

I never understood why not use the Kodiak for extraction, both at the beginning and at the end... Seriously, A extraction vehicle would be a target, but compared to Makos and gunships flying to the beam, it would be reasonable for it to get your squad and go away

Major Coats in a truck would make more sense than anything.

[eduardogranja]

2112.rush wrote...

eduardogranja wrote...

I never understood why not use the Kodiak for extraction, both at the beginning and at the end... Seriously, A extraction vehicle would be a target, but compared to Makos and gunships flying to the beam, it would be reasonable for it to get your squad and go away

Major Coats in a truck would make more sense than anything.

Another possibility: If the Normandy was not essential to the battle, why not, instead of extracting, Joker didn't use the Thanix Cannon to blow Harbinger away? It wouldn't destroy him, but it would buy enough time for you, your squad and a lot of Hammer to get to the beam...

[phagus]

Perhaps the closer Harbinger gets to the Catalyst the lower his IQ drops. IQ theory maybe.. It might also be a much simpler explanation. Harbinger needs to stop soldiers from entering the beam. Normandy cannot enter the beam and is taking people from the area so is no threat. The soldiers rushing the beam on foot and in Mako's are and are targeted. Shepard is hit trying to get to the beam shortly after the evac. Although how anyone survives, even Shepard, a blast so close is anyones guess. If Normandy was dropping people for a beam run then it would have been destroyed. Likewise if the Normandy tried to provide air support, firing on Harbinger as a distraction to allow ground forces to reach the beam, it would have been destroyed. Another possibility is by destroying the Normandy so close to the beam may damage it delaying the harvesting operation.

Considering that this evac scene was in the EC to explain something not explained in the original ending. Having to now speculate or headcannon a reason to explain why Harbinger didn't shoot down the Normandy as soon as it turned up shows that the entire evac scene can break the players suspension of disbelief. IMO the writers at BW could have come up with something less...but considering the overall plot of ME3 and it's ending the evac scene fits perfectly with "speculations for everyone".

[CronoDragoon]

2112.rush wrote...

Here's one thread. I could find more, but I don't feel like digging for old threads.

Did you read that thread? Half the responses in the massive 6 pages it generated are people either giving reasons for it or saying the same thing I am: who cares? It happened to move the story along.

[liggy002]

vware wrote...

Youtube video:
www.youtube.com/watch

I missed this conversation between EDI and engineer Adams on my 3 playthroughs. I'm glad there is some reasoning behind this.

HUMANS ARE DUST IN THE STELLAR WIND.

Ah yes, the Reaper IFF argument... as if the Normandy could fool Harbinger into thinking it was a Reaper.  Also, the IFF didn't full the Occuli nor the Reapers on the galaxy map who weren't even as advanced as Harbinger.  Or maybe they were, still the point stands.

Modifié par liggy002, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:12 .

[liggy002]

Xellith wrote...

Being at point blank range with a reaper and having your cargo bay open with soldiers standing at the ramp shooting = stealth systems disengaged.  Otherwise they would stop chasing you on the galaxy map once EDI said her greeting.

Once detected to not be a reaper, THATS when you have issues.  The normandy should have been detected.  The entire landing scene is ridiculous.  However its the only way they could possibly have made any sense as to how the team got on board.  They didnt want to have to rewrite anything to make any sense and so just gave us that BS.

Im still waiting for a valid reason as to why harby didnt fire on the Normandy.

It's simple Xelith... either Bioware is hiding something from us in regards to Harbinger or they just don't give a **** about their own story.

[JasonShepard]

Okay, focusing purely on the extraction at the Citadel beam, I see five different reasons why Harbinger wouldn't or couldn't shoot.

• Hammer team. A single shot spent firing at the Normandy is a single shot not spent defending the beam. Harbinger's priority here is preventing anyone from making it to the Citadel, since one person getting through could (and does) mess up the Reapers plans. (Remember that the Reapers have intel on the Crucible from TIM, and know that it needs to interface with the Citadel.)
• Normandy is providing evac, taking troops away from the beam. This is actually advantageous to Harbinger's goal of preventing anyone from reaching the beam. It is definitely not providing hostile action (aside from a few bullets fired, which are nothing compared to the makos and gunships that are flying everywhere).
• The Normandy Stealth systems. Harbinger's standard targetting systems will be calibrated for space, and infrared light. If the Normandy has stealth systems active, it is not giving out infrared. Yes, Harbinger could recalibrate to visible light, but as mentioned, he has a lot of things to be doing at the moment anyway.
• The Reaper IFF. This probably only buys a couple of seconds, but Normandy will not read as a hostile ship until Harbinger decided to look closer. Since, as mentioned, Normandy is not actively hostile anyway, Harbinger may not bother to pay it any closer attention.
• EDI. Her original role was to provide electronic countermeasures, hacking enemy ships to mess up their targetting, weapon capabilities, even life-support and engines if possible. Sure, she's evolved beyond this point, but she can still do it. I imagine that she is jamming up Harbinger's targetting calibrations (the Reaper IFF will probably help in hacking Harbinger), exacerbating the problem I mentioned in 1, and certainly making it more difficult for Harby to shoot the Normandy.

Okay, maybe none of these would individually work as a reason why Harbinger wouldn't just shoot the Normandy, but all of these reasons put together? I'm certainly happy to accept the way that scene worked out.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:13 .

[archangel1996]

Harbinger is stupid, his boss is a brat -.-

[The Night Mammoth]

CronoDragoon wrote...

2112.rush wrote...

Here's one thread. I could find more, but I don't feel like digging for old threads.

Did you read that thread? Half the responses in the massive 6 pages it generated are people either giving reasons for it or saying the same thing I am: who cares? It happened to move the story along.

Of course they did it to move the plot along, but I was under the impression that, usually, writers moved the plot along in ways that didn't leave holes behind. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:16 .

[liggy002]

Outsider edge wrote...

Harby was probably wondering where those two other capital reaperships were. One moment they are right behind him descending down too earth too protect the beam the next.....poof......they are gone!

Yeah, again it was another false build up for an epic Priority:Earth and these Reapers didn't show up.  Like that Priority:Earth trailer, it was a big let down.

[GreyLycanTrope]

CronoDragoon wrote...

2112.rush wrote...

Here's one thread. I could find more, but I don't feel like digging for old threads.

Did you read that thread? Half the responses in the massive 6 pages it generated are people either giving reasons for it or saying the same thing I am: who cares? It happened to move the story along.

And the other half didn't. You not caring doesn't make it any less of a hole, I realize the plot needs to move along a certain path but do it convincingly if you don't want people to bring it up.

[archangel1996]

JasonShepard wrote...

Okay, focusing purely on the extraction at the Citadel beam, I see five different reasons why Harbinger wouldn't or couldn't shoot.

• Hammer team. A single shot spent firing at the Normandy is a single shot not spent defending the beam. Harbinger's priority here is preventing anyone from making it to the Citadel, since one person getting through could (and does) mess up the Reapers plans. (Remember that the Reapers have intel on the Crucible from TIM, and know that it needs to interface with the Citadel.)
• Normandy is providing evac, taking troops away from the beam. This is actually advantageous to Harbinger's goal of preventing anyone from reaching the beam. It is definitely not providing hostile action (aside from a few bullets fired, which are nothing compared to the makos and gunships that are flying everywhere).
• The Normandy Stealth systems. Harbinger's standard targetting systems will be calibrated for space, and infrared light. If the Normandy has stealth systems active, it is not giving out infrared. Yes, Harbinger could recalibrate to visible light, but as mentioned, he has a lot of things to be doing at the moment anyway.
• The Reaper IFF. This probably only buys a couple of seconds, but Normandy will not read as a hostile ship until Harbinger decided to look closer. Since, as mentioned, Normandy is not actively hostile anyway, Harbinger may not bother to pay it any closer attention.
• EDI. Her original role was to provide electronic countermeasures, hacking enemy ships to mess up their targetting, weapon capabilities, even life-support and engines if possible. Sure, she's evolved beyond this point, but she can still do it. I imagine that she is jamming up Harbinger's targetting calibrations (the Reaper IFF will probably help in hacking Harbinger), exacerbating the problem I mentioned in 1, and certainly making it more difficult for Harby to shoot the Normandy.

Okay, maybe none of these would individually work as a reason why Harbinger wouldn't just shoot the Normandy, but all of these reasons put together? I'm certainly happy to accept the way that scene worked out.

1 The Normandy explodes and it takes everyone around the Citadel's beam to hell
2 Again, Shepard is there,its mortal enemiy, he shoots at the ship and everyone dies....nothing too difficult for something that can destroy a dreadnought with one beam
3 Harbinger kill everysingle soldier with one beam, it's like you killing a bee with one move...the stealth of the Normandy is useless when there is eyecontact(see geth, Collector base and reapers on galaxy map)
4 Again, eye contact....
5 Nope, it's just impossible, Legion can't hack the Reapers to let him go, how can EDI? And again, we can see Harbinger looking at the Normandy.....and that's all! He just looks and let Shepard the time to evac his squaddies

it's monkey crap, pure and simple

Modifié par archangel1996, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:23 .

[wolfhowwl]

liggy002 wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Harby was probably wondering where those two other capital reaperships were. One moment they are right behind him descending down too earth too protect the beam the next.....poof......they are gone!

Yeah, again it was another false build up for an epic Priority:Earth and these Reapers didn't show up.  Like that Priority:Earth trailer, it was a big let down.

Didn't Hackett order the fleets to attempt to delay Harbinger and his escort? Must have been quite a delaying effort by the fleet if only Harbinger made it through.

[CronoDragoon]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Of course they did it to move the plot along, but I was under the impression that, usually, writers moved the plot along in ways that didn't leave holes behind. 

There's no hole here, though. You don't think the explanations available are convincing, which isn't a plot hole. But if we are subsuming this type of complaint under "plothole" then your impression is wrong. There are often points in stories where things could have gone a different way but didn't "just because."

[archangel1996]

wolfhowwl wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Harby was probably wondering where those two other capital reaperships were. One moment they are right behind him descending down too earth too protect the beam the next.....poof......they are gone!

Yeah, again it was another false build up for an epic Priority:Earth and these Reapers didn't show up.  Like that Priority:Earth trailer, it was a big let down.

Didn't Hackett order the fleets to attempt to delay Harbinger and his escort? Must have been quite a delaying effort by the fleet if only Harbinger made it through.

And the Reapers' fleet was nearer the Earth than the Alliance.....so why didn't they sent someon...thing to protect the beam? Mah

[archangel1996]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Of course they did it to move the plot along, but I was under the impression that, usually, writers moved the plot along in ways that didn't leave holes behind. 

There's no hole here, though. You don't think the explanations available are convincing, which isn't a plot hole. But if we are subsuming this type of complaint under "plothole" then your impression is wrong. There are often points in stories where things could have gone a different way but didn't "just because."

Let me make this perfectly clear what you are saying is:

[The Night Mammoth]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Of course they did it to move the plot along, but I was under the impression that, usually, writers moved the plot along in ways that didn't leave holes behind. 

There's no hole here, though. You don't think the explanations available are convincing, which isn't a plot hole. But if we are subsuming this type of complaint under "plothole" then your impression is wrong. There are often points in stories where things could have gone a different way but didn't "just because."

I'm not entirely sure why this isn't a plot hole. 

Something happens a certain way that's important to the plot without a given explanation that conflicts with the consistency of the story.

[JasonShepard]

archangel1996 wrote...

1 The Normandy explodes and it takes everyone around the Citadel's beam to hell
2 Again, Shepard is there,its mortal enemiy, he shoots at the ship and everyone dies....nothing too difficult for something that can destroy a dreadnought with one beam
3 Harbinger kill everysingle soldier with one beam, it's like you killing a bee with one move...the stealth of the Normandy is useless when there is eyecontact(see geth, Collector base and reapers on galaxy map)
4 Again, eye contact....
5 Nope, it's just impossible, Legion can't hack the Reapers to let him go, how can EDI? And again, we can see Harbinger looking at the Normandy.....and that's all! He just looks and let Shepard the time to evac his squaddies

• Just as soon as Harbinger can target Normandy. Which could take a crucial few seconds during which a mako repeats the ending of ME1. Futhermore, to create an explosion would require a direct hit to the main reactor - not a guarantee. Further furthermore, Harbinger's weapons won't be at full strength - he's sitting on a planet, and has to use up a major amount of power generating mass effect fields to account for the Earth's gravity, so it's not even a guarantee that the Normandy would go down in one hit. This is also a decent explanation for how Shepard survived a near-direct hit.
• Shepard is still one man, despite the fact that 'he has become an annoyance' and is 'percieved as a threat'. All of those people charging towards the beam? They are also percieved as a threat, and they are the priority right now. Shepard's threat value was primarily due to the fact that the Commander has a nack for bringing disparate forces together under one banner - something which has already happened at this point.
• Eye contact... I repeat, visible light is not the wavelength of light that Harbinger would be designed for if he is primarily a deep space dreadnought. He is very literally out of his element on a planet surface! He may well have visible light detectors, but they will be secondary targeting sources for him. Also, as mentioned in 1, one shot may not be enough. (As for the Occuli and the Collectors, there were no distractions present in those cases, so it would be easier to bypass the stealth systems or focus only on visible light sensors.)
• See my response to 3.
• Legion does not have EDI's electronic countermeasure suite (mentioned in ME2). Nor does Legion have an active Reaper IFF. Also, Legion was shackled by that Reaper. If EDI has actively hacked Harbinger's targetting, then just looking at the Normandy wouldn't be enough - firing could be like writing your name in the mirror, or worse.

it's monkey crap, pure and simple

[list=1][/list]So, in other words, you don't want the scene to work, so you're willing to put as much effort as necessary to make sure it doesn't. If you wanted the scene to work, then I feel there's more than enough flexibility in the lore to let it work.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 08 janvier 2013 - 07:59 .

[CaptainCommander]

Kind of makes the ENTIRE final battle pointless if the Normandy could just fly up to the beam, drop everyone off and bugger off.
In the beginning of Mass Effect it made sense cause it was chaotic and the Normandy can stealth. Also many ships were flying around so yeah.

[ioannisdenton]

Argolas wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Argolas wrote...
Anyway, I think that scene has worse problems than Harbinger not attacking, and I'm not talking about the Normandy being there in only 5 seconds when it is supposed to be taking part in the battle. One of the worst scenes of the whole franchise IMO is the evacuation of EDI. We know that her body is just an expendable tool that can only function as long as the Normandy (where EDI actually is) stays in communication range, and EDI even explains that when Shepard is trying to evacuate her, but Shepard only is like "STFU with your logic!". It even gets better when "Throw all Synthetics out of the airlock" Javik risks his life while helping to get that expendable sexbot back on the Normandy. Way to much ooc in there.

Does that really happen?? I never had EDI with me on the final run since the EC came out, but I had assumed that if I did, the other squadmate would be the one injured and EDI would be the one dragging the injured party back to the ship.

Here's an example of the scene I found on Youtube. Instead of James, the other one can as well be Javik. Note that Shepard sends EDI away with a "moral order" and that's the renegade option.

Edit: Nevermind, I found a version with Javik. Includes both Paragon and Renegade dialogue which are about equally stupid.

Ok just saw this. That was embrassing. The writer of that scene should be embarassed.
Great. Another Facepalm moment.
The more i see of Me3 the more i hate it.
Mr Crhis Priestly can wonder all day why we are bashing Me3 but we are right.
That Jessica Merrizan line " you are reading too much into this" was embarassing too.
What is that supposed to mean?  That in a STORY centric driven game we should pay attention to the GENERIC combat suited for kids?
Bioware got it's Fame due to the depth of storytelling if not anything else.

[archangel1996]

1- Alliance Dreadnought(war ship)-one hit-farewell dreadnought...obviulst the Normandy would resist the shoot because the Normandy is the Normandy And again, Harbinger is too busy killing three poor Christs running for their lifes
Yeah near direct hit, Shepard is kind of special, so Harbinger does not hit him/her like everyone else....
2- Yeah, in ME2 Harbinger is kind of obsessionated with Shep and in ME3 it lets him be beacuse he is too busy killing the 3 poor Christs that i already nominated
3- ?
4- Again....
5- You are right, EDI hacking something like the Reapers is very very possible(the same EDI who was surprised by the geth)

this can work if i pretend that Harbinger and the Reapers are weak and stupid beings